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Rabbi Shlomo Amar's wife, kids to be charged [Jewish "honor" crime?]
Jerusalem Post ^ | May 8, 2005 | Yaakov Katz and Mati Wagner

Posted on 05/08/2005 9:10:26 PM PDT by Alouette

Police said Sunday they had collected sufficient evidence to press charges against Sephardi Chief Rabbi Shlomo Amar's wife, daughter and son in connection with the alleged kidnapping and beating of a 17-year-old haredi youth romantically involved with Amar's 18-year-old daughter.

"We believe we have sufficient evidence to press charges against the suspects and will recommend that the prosecution do so," said a senior police officer involved in the investigation.

The officer stressed that police have yet to obtain concrete evidence against Amar, who is currently in Thailand on business and is scheduled to return on Tuesday. Police confirmed that Amar was at home when the youth was brought to the family's Jerusalem apartment following a night of abuse in Kalansua, but said there were conflicting versions regarding his level of involvement in the affair.

Ayala Amar, the rabbi's daughter, met the 17-year-old boy from Bnei Brak over the Internet some three months ago, police said. Meir – the chief rabbi's 31-year-old estranged son who turned secular some 15 years ago – kidnapped the youth in an effort to persuade him to break off the relationship with his sister.

During the night of the kidnapping last month, Meir took the youth to Kalansua where two of his acquaintances – Abdullah and Ahmed Maslawah – tied him up, cut off his peyot, cut his kippa in half and beat him for several hours. In the morning, the youth was taken to the Amar home, were the beating continued.

On Sunday, police confronted Amar's wife Mazal with the abducted youth. During the confrontation, the youth reportedly told police the chief rabbi was not only present while he was beaten, but also knew of the abduction. Police have said they intend to request permission from Attorney-General Menahem Mazuz to question Amar upon his return.

While police suspect Meir was the mastermind behind the kidnapping, they said he was ordered to do so by his mother, who told him of Ayala's illicit relationship and asked him to "take care of the problem."

On Friday, the three Amar family members were brought to Tel Aviv District Court which extended Meir's remand by an additional eight days. Ayala and her mother were released to house arrest. Sources close to Amar said Sunday that while he admits to being home at the time of the alleged beating, he was not aware of the abduction.

"Maybe that boy was brought to the rabbi's house in the early morning hours when Amar was sleeping," one source said. "But that does not mean the rabbi was aware of what was going on."

"First, the rabbi's apartment is big and the distance from the family room to the bedroom is far enough so that the rabbi probably never heard anything," the source added. "In addition, there are always people coming and going at the rabbi's house. It's like a train station. So even if the rabbi saw the boy on his way to morning prayers, it is not clear he would think twice about it."

"Rabbi Amar is a respected Torah figure. If he would have known about the kidnapping and the beating he would have stopped it immediately," he said.

Sources close to Amar placed the blame squarely on the shoulders of Meir, who left home some 15 years ago. Of Amar's 12 children – four boys and eight girls – Meir is the only one who abandoned religion.

Sources close to Amar also rejected claims that Ayala reciprocated the young man's love. These sources said that the youth is a known haredi juvenile delinquent.

"He forced himself on her against her will. The brother found out and decided to do something about it," one source said.

The youth belongs to a well-respected Sephardi family in Bnei Brak. Since he is a minor, there is a police ban on the publishing his name.

Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, spiritual mentor of Shas, spoke by phone with Amar. "I am sure everything will work for the better in the end," he told him. "I pray that God will bring your son back to the fold."


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Israel; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: israel; rabbi
In this particular community, it seems, if a family feels their daughter's "honor" has been impugned, the older brother takes it on himself to beat up the young man who has been making the unwanted attention.

Maybe it is more morally logical but nevertheless it was not really necessary to resort to violence and now it is a crime.

1 posted on 05/08/2005 9:10:27 PM PDT by Alouette
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To: 1st-P-In-The-Pod; A Jovial Cad; A_Conservative_in_Cambridge; adam_az; af_vet_rr; agrace; ahayes; ...
FRmail me to be added or removed from this Judaic/pro-Israel ping list.

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2 posted on 05/08/2005 9:11:18 PM PDT by Alouette (The truth is not hard to kill, but a lie told well is immortal. -- Mark Twain)
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To: Alouette


What is a peyot and a kippa? SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME!


3 posted on 05/08/2005 9:14:31 PM PDT by LauraleeBraswell ( We must stand behind TOM DELAY!)
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To: Alouette

Sounds like something that would happen in the back desert of Saudi Arabia.


4 posted on 05/08/2005 9:16:03 PM PDT by jsbankston
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To: Alouette
What's a haredi?

tied him up, cut off his peyot, cut his kippa in half and beat him for several hours.

And what's a peyot and a kippa? There must be some significance to it.

5 posted on 05/08/2005 9:16:20 PM PDT by xJones
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To: LauraleeBraswell

peyot are sidelocks and a kippa is a skullcap.


6 posted on 05/08/2005 9:17:26 PM PDT by Alouette (The truth is not hard to kill, but a lie told well is immortal. -- Mark Twain)
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To: LauraleeBraswell


>What is a peyot and a kippa?

Peyot are the sidelocks which a male wears; the kippa is a skull cap.


7 posted on 05/08/2005 9:17:55 PM PDT by CondorFlight
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To: xJones

Haredi is another name for "Ultra-Orthodox" Jew.


8 posted on 05/08/2005 9:18:22 PM PDT by Alouette (The truth is not hard to kill, but a lie told well is immortal. -- Mark Twain)
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To: Alouette

This is wrong and shouldn't have happened, but it is a far cry from what often happens in the case of a certain other religion.

You know... the one where the girl would most likely be stabbed, shot or otherwise punished for offenses against family honor... TRO-pieces...


9 posted on 05/08/2005 9:24:19 PM PDT by Ronin (When the fox gnaws....SMILE!)
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To: Alouette

These "ultra-orthodox" are obstacles to a peaceful resolution of the horrible situation that exists in that region, as are the militant jihadists on the other side. They both have backed away from reason so far that their asses are touching. They should join together and go away.


10 posted on 05/08/2005 9:24:59 PM PDT by Octar
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To: LauraleeBraswell
What is a peyot and a kippa? SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME!

----------------------

... Side Curls (Peyot) Why do male Chasidic Jews have the long curls in their hair?

... Why do Jewish men cover their heads with a yarmulke (kippa)? ...

http://judaism.about.com/od/prayersworshiprituals/

----------------------

I wondered the same thing...

11 posted on 05/08/2005 9:25:55 PM PDT by TXnMA (ATTN, ACLU & NAACP: There's no constitutionally protected right to NOT be offended -- Shove It!)
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To: Alouette

Ouch. Seventeen and eighteen year-old Sephardis, with a secular 31 year-old brother of the female who cuts off the curls and cap of the young male......there's a soap opera somewhere in this.


12 posted on 05/08/2005 9:26:33 PM PDT by xJones
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To: Alouette

I don't see how this is an honor crime. It sounds like the victim did something to piss the daughter off, and she sicced the black sheep of the family on him. Sounds more like a jilted lover or maybe the victim got too fresh.


13 posted on 05/08/2005 9:44:41 PM PDT by KingKenrod
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To: Octar
The fact that you would compare the "haredi" community and the "militant jihadists", is staggering. When last have you heard of an ultra-orthodox Jew blowing himself up in a pizza parlor?

Your post clearly illustrates your total lack of understanding of the realities in the Israeli/ Palestinian situation.

14 posted on 05/08/2005 9:59:16 PM PDT by sofaman
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To: sofaman

Sorry Charlie, I was talking about obstacles to a peaceful resolution. Read.


15 posted on 05/08/2005 10:16:49 PM PDT by Octar
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To: sofaman

When was the last time you saw them make a distinction between Palestinian Christians and Muslims? I'm just sayin...

There was an article in my local paper about a year ago about a group of Israeli Jews forcing a Palestinian Christian family off their farm whose ownership predated Israel's existance by about 50 years. They just wanted the land and so the corrupt Israeli court let them take it away from them. The reason it was in the paper is that the wife was an American born and raised in our area who was sorta appealing to American interests to help her family. She and her Palestinian husband, and their children, are Christians.

The real religious minorities, the Christians, Druze and Zoroastrians have always been victimized primarily by Islam, but that doesn't mean that they have any real equality in Israel either. I am very pro-Israel because it is a fairly peaceful, democratic state that is turning capitalist, but I am well aware of its darker side. Part of that has been that Israel has really never given a rat's ass about the Palestinian Christians, and now they pay the price for that. I think it's because Christianity is such an affront to so many Jews that they'd rather deal with Islam in a military conflict than Christianity in a religious one.

For the record, I oppose the "roadmap to peace" and support full Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories as they are part of the covnenant lands.


16 posted on 05/08/2005 10:18:36 PM PDT by ILurkedIRegisteredIPosted
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To: Octar

I disagree with everything that you wrote about "ultra-orthodox" Jews. Why do you believe that they are obstacles to a peaceful resolution of the Palestinian Arab violence against innocent Israelis? Why do you compare them to militant Jihadists who want to kill innocent people? In what way are they comparable?


17 posted on 05/08/2005 10:20:01 PM PDT by Piranha
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To: TXnMA

They wear peyot because the Torah (the five books of Moses) command that Jews should not cut the hair at the corners of their head, and they take this commandment to mean that they should not cut the hair that grows above their sideburns.

A yarmulke is a symbol of G-d's protective cover over the world, and of the wearer's obedience to G-d.


18 posted on 05/08/2005 10:22:07 PM PDT by Piranha
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To: Octar
I read. At least try and ensure that your posts make sense.

And it's Mr. Charlie to you.

19 posted on 05/08/2005 10:24:45 PM PDT by sofaman
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To: ILurkedIRegisteredIPosted

I think that you are misinformed about Israel's relationship with the Arab Christian community. If you would post the article from your local paper that alleges that a Christian family was forced off of their farm, I'm sure that someone here will be able to tell you the other side of the story. In fact, Christians, Druze and Zoroastrians, as well as people of every other religion -- or no religion -- have equal rights in Israel. There are Israeli citizens who are Christians and Druze (I don't know about Zoroastrians), and in fact there are many Druze who have significant roles in the Israel Defense Forces (the Israeli army).


20 posted on 05/08/2005 10:25:50 PM PDT by Piranha
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To: ILurkedIRegisteredIPosted
I will be the first to admit that I am totally unfamiliar with the plight of Palestinian Christians and am completely unaware of the situation of this family.

The Israeli Supreme Court, and Israeli courts generally, are openly liberal and are not "friendly" to the Israeli government at all. So this family's situation seems odd, to say the least. It seems very strange to me that the courts would have allowed this if the facts of the case are beyond dispute.

21 posted on 05/08/2005 10:31:39 PM PDT by sofaman
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To: Piranha

I didn't compare them. Oh, yes I did. For very different reasons. They both present obstacles to a peaceful resolution to the terrible and unnecessary difficulities that contunue to plague this troubled region.


22 posted on 05/08/2005 10:43:12 PM PDT by Octar
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To: sofaman
I'm sorry you took my response personally. It wasn't intended that way. It was a joke from the Tuna fish ad. Sorry Charlie. No disrespect was intended. I may disagree with people on this forum, but I am careful to avoid insults and name-calling because it is too easy to do that and cause the forum to degenerate into some crappy DU mess.

And it's OK if you disagree with me, maybe we both can learn.

23 posted on 05/08/2005 10:55:09 PM PDT by Octar
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To: Octar
1. What peaceful resolution?
2. The ultra-Orthodox are split between religious nationalists who see the Third Commonwealth of Israel as a step to the Messianic era, Zionists, and anti-Zionists.
3. Which "militant jihadist" Jews have you heard of?
24 posted on 05/08/2005 11:38:16 PM PDT by rmlew (Copperheads and Peaceniks beware! Sedition is a crime.)
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To: Alouette
of a 17-year-old haredi youth

What's a haredi? For that matter what's a Sephardi?
25 posted on 05/09/2005 1:02:08 AM PDT by Old_Mil
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To: Octar

Your anti-Semitism is noted for future reference.


26 posted on 05/09/2005 4:02:39 AM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: Old_Mil
Haredi is the Modern Hebrew word for an Orthodox Jew.

Sephardi is the Hebrew word for a Jew from the Mediterranean (it means Spaniard in medieval Hebrew), as opposed to an Ashkenazi

, a Jew from Northern or Eastern Europe (which means German in medieval Hebrew).

In Israel, Sephardim are generally Orthodox, they have their own political party called Shas, and there is tension between them and the secular/atheist Jews, the majority of which tend to be Ashkenazi in background - although more and more of the Ashkenazi population is made up of Hasidic Orthodox Jews. And hasid means a devotee of a specific tradition of Orthodox Ashkenazi spirituality. It means "faithful" in Hebrew.

27 posted on 05/09/2005 4:10:50 AM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: Piranha

Our town's paper probably doesn't have it online anymore. If I find it, I'll post it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to knock Israel, I was just saying that Israel is not perfect and that it does deserve its fair share of criticism like any other country. Too often I just see conservatives giving them a free pass since it's a Jewish majority state and they don't want to "offend God."


28 posted on 05/09/2005 5:26:03 AM PDT by ILurkedIRegisteredIPosted
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To: dennisw; Cachelot; Yehuda; Nix 2; veronica; Catspaw; knighthawk; Alouette; Optimist; weikel; ...

If you'd like to be on or off this middle east/political ping list, please FR mail me.


29 posted on 05/09/2005 5:38:50 AM PDT by SJackson (The first duty of a leader is to make himself be loved without courting love, Andre Malraux)
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To: ILurkedIRegisteredIPosted

I don't think that Israel is perfect, either. However, I don't believe that Israel would take some poor Christian (or Muslim) Arab's farm without due process and a good reason to do so. I also believe that this has seldom, if ever, occurred (with the exception of land abandoned by Arabs who left in connection with Israel's war of independence in 1948 and the 6-day war of June 1967). From time to time Israel does knock down orchards when they have been used by snipers or bomb-throwers, and on even more rare occasions it has taken land by adverse possession when it needs it for roads or security. However, it is my understanding that those cases are litigated when contested.


30 posted on 05/09/2005 6:31:11 AM PDT by Piranha
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To: Alouette

This story just goes to show you that any person who abandons the one true G-d from there life and lifestyle he will resort in doing the worst things people can do to humanity, hopefully this man will come back to G-d and his family before it's to late.....


31 posted on 05/09/2005 6:38:16 AM PDT by missyme (The Conclusion is:)
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To: Alouette

"In this particular community, it seems, if a family feels their daughter's "honor" has been impugned, the older brother takes it on himself to beat up the young man who has been making the unwanted attention."

Makes more sense than killing his sister, which is what a Muslim would have done. That makes no sense at all to me.


32 posted on 05/09/2005 7:12:14 AM PDT by monday
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To: monday
Makes more sense than killing his sister, which is what a Muslim would have done. That makes no sense at all to me.

And to me. If it had been my daughter that suffered unwelcome sexual advances, especially if that was merely a euphemism for rape, it would be more than side-locks and a hat that the perp would be missing, if you know what I mean, and I'm sure you do.

Actually since I'm not a knife person, the "young man" in question would likely become on intimate terms with my serious social purposes shotgun and/or the handgun designed by John Moses Browning.

33 posted on 05/09/2005 8:33:48 AM PDT by El Gato (Activist Judges can twist the Constitution into anything they want ... or so they think.)
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To: wideawake
Haredi is the Modern Hebrew word for an Orthodox Jew. Sephardi is the Hebrew word for a Jew from the Mediterranean (it means Spaniard in medieval Hebrew), as opposed to an Ashkenazi, a Jew from Northern or Eastern Europe (which means German in medieval Hebrew).

I'm sort of feeling like Capt. Kirk in that old Star Trek episode where the people who were painted black on the left and white on the right were fighting with people painted white on the left and black on the right. What exactly was the problem here then?
34 posted on 05/09/2005 11:16:51 AM PDT by Old_Mil
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To: Piranha
In fact, Christians, Druze and Zoroastrians, as well as people of every other religion -- or no religion -- have equal rights in Israel.

Then explain why Messianic Jews can't immigrate to Israel under the Law of Return?! The state of Israel does NOT treat Christians equally.

35 posted on 05/09/2005 11:30:11 AM PDT by Tamar1973 (America is not free anymore, the judicial oligarchy rules. Want proof? Ask Terri Schindler!!!!!)
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To: Old_Mil
What exactly was the problem here then?

Ashkenazim who assimilated into larger European culture usually became atheistic socialists, but still considered themselves Jews despite their abandonment of Judaism.

Sephardim who assimilated into the larger Islamic culture ceased to consider themselves Jews in any sense.

Therefore, when Israel was founded, the Ashkenazim split into secular vs. religious entities, both sides claiming to be authentic Jews, while the Sephardim were basically just religious Jews. Even secularized Sephardim in modern Israel tend to be very deferent to religious sensibilities.

So a lot of the political conflicts in Israel are between religious Sephardim and secular Ashkenazim.

Basically, the two sides have very different values.

36 posted on 05/09/2005 11:31:10 AM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: El Gato
If it had been my daughter that suffered unwelcome sexual advances, especially if that was merely a euphemism for rape, it would be more than side-locks and a hat that the perp would be missing, if you know what I mean

Except that in this case I'm not sure there was any physical attention, or if there was, it was by mutual consent. All they were doing was chatting over the Internet.

In any case kidnapping and beating the crap out of this kid was wrong, and the family knew it was wrong, that was why they put up the family "bad boy" to do the dirty work.

I make sure that my daughter doesn't chat with boys on the Internet by breathing down her neck the whole time she's online.

37 posted on 05/09/2005 11:45:22 AM PDT by Alouette (The truth is not hard to kill, but a lie told well is immortal. -- Mark Twain)
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To: Piranha
Thanks!

I understand their signigificance -- now... But I (like several others, apparently) simply didn't know what the specific words "peyot" and "kippa" meant until I looked them up.

You must admit that the way they were used in the post could lead the linguistically ignorant to all sorts of speculation...

38 posted on 05/09/2005 12:11:08 PM PDT by TXnMA (ATTN, ACLU & NAACP: There's no constitutionally protected right to NOT be offended -- Shove It!)
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To: TXnMA

lol. I never thought of it like that.


39 posted on 05/09/2005 12:44:22 PM PDT by Piranha
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To: Tamar1973

Druze and Zoroastrians also can't immigrate to Israel under the Law of Return. The law of return applies to Jews, and Jews for Jesus are not accepted as Jews under Jewish law. Once people are citizens (whether they become citizens because they are Jews and eligible for an accelerated process under the Law of Return, or whether they are citizens on some other basis), they are treated equally under Israeli law.

Of course, there are some religious exceptions, for example the requirement that Jews can only be married by a rabbi under the aegis of the Orthodox governing group, whereas non-Jews can be married by whomever their religion authorizes to marry them.


40 posted on 05/09/2005 12:49:08 PM PDT by Piranha
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To: Old_Mil

I don't know that the fact that Rabbi Amar's family is Sephardic has anything to do with the case. I believe that I have read that the kidnapped boy also is Sephardic.

Even if he is not, I don't know that the fact that some Jews are Sephardic and some Jews are Ashkenazic is relevant to this case.


41 posted on 05/09/2005 12:52:24 PM PDT by Piranha
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To: Piranha
The law of return applies to Jews, and Jews for Jesus are not accepted as Jews under Jewish law.

But Jews with any other religious affiliation or none at all (i.e. Bu-Jews, atheists, etc.) are allowed in under the Law of Return. It seems to me that only Messianic Jews are singled out for discrimination in this case.

42 posted on 05/09/2005 1:09:23 PM PDT by Tamar1973 (America is not free anymore, the judicial oligarchy rules. Want proof? Ask Terri Schindler!!!!!)
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To: Tamar1973

If that's true, I would guess that the government, as a matter of public policy, has determined that Christianity disguised as Judaism poses a greater threat to the integrity of the Jewish people.


43 posted on 05/09/2005 3:54:41 PM PDT by Piranha
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To: Alouette
Please note this incident sounds like another stupid internal conflict, This bears no relation to the Muslim Honor killing. The family did not kill anyone and no permanent damage was done. Killing a family member is barbaric.
44 posted on 05/09/2005 4:49:20 PM PDT by Marano NYC
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