Strict vs. Liberal Construction of the Constitution: A Bogus Issue

Vanity | 06 July 2005 | PatrickHenry (vanity)

[Cultural Jihad]

The pursuit of happiness also compels self-governing people to drop whatever they are doing and sit on juries, for example, for cruelties should not be tolerated. People have a right to express their collective will through the political process. Why should the rights and liberties of free people frighten you so?

[planekT]

BTTT

[Cultural Jihad]

Except that we own ourselves and have a right to live or not live if we wish.

Wrong. Unalienable rights can be infringed upon, but never abrogated, not even by the rights-holder. Otherwise it wouldn't be an unalienable right.

[CarolinaGuitarman]

"No, I deny that human being are property. That means no one owns me."

Then argue with Jefferson and Locke. They both thought that people owned themselves.

"Every state had laws against sodomy when the Constitution was ratified. I don't think the Founders had any problem with that and unlike you, I do not think they were tyrannical collectivist slavemasters."

And every one was Unconstitutional. As were all laws allowing slavery.

" I don't think that prohibiting sodomy is the same as enslavement."

You don't think you own yourself, so I have no doubt you don't think you have the final say on what you do with your body.

"People who have fought real slavery should be offended at the notion that such depravity should be compared to their God-given rights to life liberty and property."

Only if they don't know what property is, or where property rights come from.

" Your work is not your self. Work is not slavery, freedom is not oppression and property is not theft."

My work IS my self and I will not allow anybody to take it without my consent. It is my property. I never said work was slavery; slavery is the involuntary taking of another's property. All slavery is theft, and all theft is a form of slavery. My work is a voluntary exchange of property. I give my property (time and effort) for another's property (money, which is a way of storing other people's time and effort). When someone steals my wallet and takes my money, they are stealing time and effort from my LIFE. It is an assault on my person. THAT is why I have property rights to my money, my car, my possessions. The taking of these things from me without permission is an attack on my person.

[Tailgunner Joe]

"...Men being all the workmanship of one omnipotent and infinitely wise Maker; all the servants of one sovereign Master, sent into the world by His order and about His business; they are His property, whose workmanship they are made to last during His, not one another's pleasure." - John Locke

[CarolinaGuitarman]

"The pursuit of happiness also compels self-governing people ..."

How can you type that with a straight face? You don't believe people own themselves; in your political universe, people are NOT self-governing.

"People have a right to express their collective will through the political process. Why should the rights and liberties of free people frighten you so?"

Collectivist BS. Why do individual rights frighten you so?

[Tailgunner Joe]

If you don't believe that rights come from God, then you are the one who doesn't know where rights come from, and you are the one arguing with Jefferson and Locke.

[CarolinaGuitarman]

He also said that we own ourselves. I never said he was consistent. That quote still nullifies anybody else's claim to own us. If I misuse God's property I will answer to God, not you.

[Cultural Jihad]

If I misuse God's property I will answer to God, not you.

Indeed. People also answer for their callous and inured moral-liberalism, and for their toleration of evil, which is itself evil.

[Tailgunner Joe]

I am God's servant.

[CarolinaGuitarman]

"Indeed. People also answer for their callous and inured moral-liberalism, and for their toleration of evil, which is itself evil."

If you believe that we have free will, then you will also believe that being forced to be *moral* does not make your actions moral. Morality depends on free choices. You are not your brother's keeper. You cannot through force make someone make a free choice. If I live as you would have me live all my life because I feared your reprisal, that only makes me your slave.

[CarolinaGuitarman]

"I am God's servant."

And are therefore a slave to whatever people have told you is God's will. I serve myself, proudly and without shame.

[Tailgunner Joe]

"I grant the existence of God is so many ways manifest, and the obedience we owe him so congruous to the light of reason, that a great part of mankind give testimony to the law of nature: but yet I think it must be allowed that several moral rules may receive from mankind a very general approbation, without either knowing or admitting the true ground of morality; which can only be the will and law of a God, who sees men in the dark, has in his hand rewards and punishments and power enough to call to account the proudest offender. For, God having, by an inseparable connexion, joined virtue and public happiness together, and made the practice thereof necessary to the preservation of society, and visibly beneficial to all with whom the virtuous man has to do; it is no wonder that every one should not only allow, but recommend and magnify those rules to others, from whose observance of them he is sure to reap advantage to himself" - John Locke

"Lastly, those are not all to be tolerated who deny the being of God. Promises, covenants, and oaths, which are the bonds of human society, can have no hold upon an atheist. The taking away of God, though but even in thought, dissolves all; besides also, those that by their atheism undermine and destroy all religion, can have no pretence of religion whereupon to challenge the privilege of toleration." - John Locke

[Cultural Jihad]

How ludicrous to postulate that laws somehow rob people of their free will.

"Laws against bank robbery make zombies out of would-be bank robbers. They have no free will to rob or not to rob. Laws against bank robbery should be outlawed since they thwart the free will of criminals"

Society doesn't care why a robber decides to not rob a bank, and doesn't fret over whether he is moral or not. We leave that to God, as you say.

[Cultural Jihad]

I serve myself, proudly and without shame.

. . . whereas previously you informed us that you were a wage-slave. You must be the master of your own realm only after hours.

[CarolinaGuitarman]

"How ludicrous to postulate that laws somehow rob people of their free will"


How ludicrous of you to put words in my mouth and completely distort what I said. You were talking about forcing people to be what YOU considered to be *moral*, even when it didn't infringe on anybody else's rights, simply because you have taken it upon yourself to save everybody's souls. I correctly said that forcing someone in that situation to be moral takes away their free will and makes them your slave. Their actions are then amoral, because they did not have a choice in what they could do.

I did NOT say that *laws* in general rob people of their free will. I have consistently stated that when someone infringes on another's rights to life, liberty, or property, then the state has the power to stop them. In fact, that is the ONLY legitimate power that the state has. All other assumed powers by the government are immoral.

""Laws against bank robbery make zombies out of would-be bank robbers. They have no free will to rob or not to rob. Laws against bank robbery should be outlawed since they thwart the free will of criminals""

This is an asinine statement, and has NOTHING to do with what I was saying. I was specifically talking about laws against actions that DO NOT infringe on somebody's rights. Your being *deeply saddened* by someone's actions does NOT give you the right to stop them. Get a hankie and sob in the corner.



" . . . whereas previously you informed us that you were a wage-slave. You must be the master of your own realm only after hours."

Again you lie about what I said. I explicitly said I was NOT a wage slave. I explicitly said that voluntary work for money is not slavery. This is what I said,

"My work IS my self and I will not allow anybody to take it without my consent. It is my property. I never said work was slavery; slavery is the involuntary taking of another's property. All slavery is theft, and all theft is a form of slavery. My work is a voluntary exchange of property."

So you are either completely illiterate (something I won't rule out) or you are a compulsive liar. Either way, you have not provided a single logical argument to support your case.