Skip to comments.The gun you bought legally may be a stolen gun, new law needed to protect gun buyers.
Posted on 11/30/2006 5:56:24 PM PST by Trteamer
I am going to be going to the legislature to get a gun law passed an I would like to get you FReepers input and advise. It's not an anti-gun law I want to pass, but one to protect us gun buyers........
I'll tell you a story, this just happened to me the end of September:
For two years I planned and saved up to go to Canada goose hunting. We booked a trip with a good outfitter and did everything right in planning on visiting Canada. Got my passport, filled out all the correct forms, etc. We drove up to Sasketechewan and the story took a turn for the worse at the border.
We pulled up to U.S. Customs at the border and they asked us the purpose of our trip. We told them goose hunting and they asked to see our firearms. There is a new form you fill out to take guns across the border so they needed to check them. I brought two shotguns with me. When they ran the serial numbers, they said "Come with us" and escorted me into the back of the border station. I was informed that one of my shotguns was in the FBI database as being stolen.
I was shocked. "Where did you get it" they asked, to which I immediately told them I bought it used, legally from Garretson's Sporting Goods in Greeley, Colorado, about eight years ago. They said "Prove it". Luckily my wife is an excellent record keeper. I called her on the phone and she went into our file cabinet and pulled out the bill of sale. She faxed it up to Customs and got me off the hook. Had she not had the bill fo sale I would have been arrested for possession of a stolen firearm. I will not go into the details of my Custom's visit, except that they confiscated the shotgun and it took 2 1/2 hours to get cleared to continue on to Canadian Customs. The Canadian Customs guys heard about it and told me I was lucky I didn't fly into Canada or I would have been arrested.
The point is: Firearms dealers in Colorado are not required by law to check the serial number of a gun when they take it in on trade. Garretson's sold me a hot gun! When I got back from the trip I had to go to Garretson's and dig out the original background check information to fax up to the Sherriff in Montana as well as the Greeley Police detective investigating the crime. We know who bought the gun originally, we know who stole it, and since the statute of limitations ran out, the thief got away with it. I have still not gotten the gun back as the Sherriff in Montana is draging his feet about shipping it back.
There has got to be a requirement that gun dealers check the serial numbers of a gun when they take one in on trade. A simple phone call to law enforcement is all it would take so they can run the number in their database.
How can I get this into law? How much help will the NRA and Gun Owners of America be? What is you FReepers opinion on this? I do not intend for this to be abused and contorted by the anti-gunners, I just don't want to be sold another hot gun in the future. I can't believe you have to verify the VIN number on a car, boat, atv, etc., but not the serial number of a firearm when trading it in.
Thankfully my shotgun was a cheap Mossberg and not an expensive Benelli. I still want it back, but what can I do if the Sherriff in Montana doesn't want to send it back?
Please ping your bang-list for me, Thanks!
To ping the banglist, just add the keyword BANGLIST to your post. I've done it for you on this thread.
If I were you I'd think about taking Garretson's to small claims court.
Hire a lawyer. Sue the bastards. They deserve it.
Sounds to me less of a gun issue and more of a stolen property issue.
Garretson's broke no laws in selling me the gun. They are not required to, and have no way to check to see if a gun is stolen when they take it in on trade. I've talked to a lot of gun dealers lately and none of them check since the ATF has not set up an easy way for them to run serial numbers. They all figure it is not their problem.
make sure in your law you state that when a gun reaches the statute of limitations then it is removed from the hot list...
and hunt in your own country, canada geese know no boundaries...
and definitely hire a montana lawyer to retrieve your gun...
A lawyer would cost me a heck of a lot more than a new shotgun.
The next time I want to hunt Snow Geese, I'm going to Texas!
Talk to a lawyer. Garretson's may not have a legal responsibility to check the gun but they could be held liable for the contingent costs associated with your spoiled trip. You could recover your costs and be paid for your trouble.
"OH I'm just a bill yes I am only a Bill and I'm sitting here on capital hill. Oh I hope I'll be a law someday, oh I hope and pray that I will but today I am still just a bill!"
I learned more from School House Rock than I did for elemantary school.
Just because they broke no laws does not mean they are not liable in a civil court.
They sold you merchandise with a defective title. They purchased the gun without performing due dilligence in determining the legality of the merchandise. They also are a Federally licensed firearms dealer, and if they are selling stolen guns, they could have their license revoked.
Shoot the geese AFTER they fly over the border. ;-)
The gun doesn't belong to you. It was stolen. It belongs to the owner and that's who they legal must give it back to, unless it is unclaimed. Obviously, since the owner notified police it was stolen, he made a claim for it and the gun is his.
The firearm dealer already has a responsibility to make sure the gun was not stolen, because he bought it from a private party. He's the one that could be charged with receiving and dealing in stolen merchandise. So it's up to you to sue him for your losses.
Aweful story---save those receipts and carry copies!
PLEASE however---don't ask the MAN to pass another law regarding anything to do with the sale or ownership of firearms.
Some lib would be happy to quote this story chapter and verse as reason to end the sale of second hand guns by ANYONE without having some form of registration scheme.
I hope that (at least) a nice shiny NEW gun was offered up by the people that sold the 'Hot' gun after all that crap.
Imagine the thought of time in a Canadian jail--- I bet they serve good breakfasts however! :')
Luckily I brought two shotguns with me on the trip, so I was still allowed to go on up and hunt with the other one.
What I think is really needed is for the ATF to grant access to some sort of on-line database for gun dealers. The Canadian Customs guys have access, why not a federally licensed firearms dealer?
When I buy a gun in NC, the gun store calls someone (the FBI?) and reads the make, model, and serial number of the gun, and my name and address. After a couple of minutes, the gun is cleared, I write a check, and I'm out the door.
Are you alright? I don't have a clue what you wrote?
Your right, the gun does not belong to me. The original owner has already gotten paid by his insurance company for the gun and has expressed to me that if he gets it back he will give it to me. The whole thing kind of sucks.
If any of you have ever bought a used firearm, I hope you still have the bill of sale. It just might keep you out of jail if you are ever out in public and get checked. Don't plan on crossing the border or the same thing just might happen to you.
That has come to mind. I'm sure with the Dem's in control they would want to twist this into a registration scheme of some sort. If the ATF would just give the dealers access to their database, maybe more gun thiefs would be caught. I don't expect the ATF to do such a thing, it would take common sense. Maybe I'll just drop the whole idea, but it still pisses me off.
No he did not. It's against fed law to deal in stolen firearms and there's no statute of limitations. The thief violated fed law by involving himself in interstate firearms transactions where the firearm was not lawfully his. Call the ATF and have the f'er tossed in jail.
OK, then the insurance Co. owns it as salvage.
"If any of you have ever bought a used firearm, I hope you still have the bill of sale. It just might keep you out of jail if you are ever out in public and get checked."
That's the rule for all items. The fed forms are good enough to prove the exchange, even if you didn't have the reciept.
Have lived and bought gun's in several states and that has been the case in each one. I think the who question and story stinks.
I guess I am either older or younger. It was the story of how a bill became a law.
I still think you ought to sue the dealer. A good dealer might be persuaded to do a better job before accepting a trade that might be hot. A successful suit might convince a dealer to do more than the legal minimum in accepting a trade.
Only buy NEW guns. Do your part to keep Firearms Companys in business.
And this is why the gungrabbers want gun registration, we want to protect you honest hunters. At least you werent going to our supplier of workers that do jobs that no American will do and commit crimes no nortamericano wont commit.
Please no more laws that mention "gun" in the title.
It was the Greely police detective that told me the the statute of limitations ran out and he was closing the case. It may just be laziness on his part. It is true however that in Colorado the dealers are not required to check the background of a gun when it is traded in.
The gun was a cheap Mossberg, so it's not worth my spending a lot of energy on the whole thing. Don't worry folks, I give up, I'll not give the anti-gunners anything to grab on to. I do think that I will have another talk with the gun dealer, he owes me.
DOJ's stolen gun file does exist though, so the dealer was negligent in not checking. It may not be worth it for you to sue, but that means you'd win. Since the dealer failed to check the database, he's open to prosecution for dealing in stolen merchandise and unlawful firearm transactions. Any criminal case here may be weak, but not a civil case.
I would advise no more gun laws. No more.
I'm glad I posted this for all you FReepers to give input. Frankly I don't know what to do at this point, but it certainly is educational.
I knew what he was talking about.
I think you are right there needs to be a law such as you suggest. I am also puzzles by a couple of things:
1. Why would you get someone else's gun back? Wouldn't it go to the rightful owner?
2. There is not statute of limitations in getting one's stolen property back is there?
2. Wouldn't you need to as others have suggested to seek recourse against the firm that sold you a stolen gun?
Off topic, but I'm the guy who screens all department memos and official communications at the office. You should have said "I am going to the legislature" instead of what you said. You also misspelled and, but the spell checker didn't get it because it looked like 'an'.
I'm not at all trying to be the grammar police, like some a$$holes on here, but if you want legislators to take you seriously, you need to make it a habit to read what you have typed before you hit that send button.
Thanks for looking out for us gun owners :)
"I give up, I'll not give the anti-gunners anything to grab on to."
from the google search I looked at chuckie the smuck from NY has been pushing for the creation of a fed stolen gun database which already exists. His sneaky action contains registration of all firearms. He's just using the fundamental lie about this to get that result.
If the ATF is notified and fails to prosecute this thief it would prove outright deception and support for thieves, grabbers, chuckie the shmuck, and their bogus propaganda mat'l. If the ATF acts, it's shows they're not using their prosecutorial discretion to coddle to gun thieves and grabbers.
especially in english grammar it is evident.
that is one of my favorites along with conjunction junction... got the videos and cds ... too cool...
I've learned this much is such a short time her on FR:
The rightful owner said he would give the gun back to me if the Montana Sherriff ever sends it back. BUT the gun actually is the property of the insurance comapany since he was paid for it.
The statute of limitations was a bunch of BS from the police detective that closed the case.
I could seek recourse, but he gun was worth far less than what a lawyer would charge.
I guess I will just rack it all up to a hard lesson learned. The gun dealer I bought it from runs a good long term family business here and I don't think he really means to sell stolen guns. He is just lazy and the law is lax.
LOL! Grammer police must have a ball here on FR, people get passionate about what they type and it doesn't always come out right.
Here's a link to the one this poster was talking about.
Yeah I had not considered any insurance company.
I would think that a reputable firm would want to make good with you rather than force both of you to give more money to attorneys than this is worth. Have you contacted the firm concerning making good on their sale of defective product to you?
What should happen is for the insurance company that owns the gun, sell it to the store you bought it from and they should make good to you by giving it back to you. [If the gun would show up clean now. They should give you another gun if that gun would not show up clean now.] Of course that is only logical not what will probably happen in the real world.
Using the same reasoning, the gun never belonged to the dealer who sold it. That dealer should make good to the purchaser.
I got it right off and I am pretty dense. I can't remember where it is from though.
I don't know about gun dealers specifically, but in these parts most pawn shops are FFL dealers and they have the local police check the temperature of everything they take in that is serialized. Gun shops can do that and probably should.
Caveat emptor, I guess.
The clear fed crime the thief is guilty of...
Yes, but that's a civil matter, as I pointed out.
CONJUNCTION JUNCTION, WHAT'S MY FUNCTION?
Thanks spunkets, you are a wealth of information.