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Unfree Republic: Thread II
Lewrockwell.com ^ | September 24, 2001 | Jeff Elkins

Posted on 09/24/2001 4:24:58 PM PDT by Rebeckie

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To: Inspector Harry Callahan
No, I haven't neglected my history books. I'm deeply concerned about the situation. I don't want my freedoms eroded any more than you do. While I would prefer no war, I hope for a short war, in order to save lives, and to also prevent serious erosion of our freedoms, among other reasons. If the war is of some duration, we'll see our rights go further into the crapper.

I would remind you that in order to exercise what little freedom you have, you need to actually be alive. I think it's pretty clear Mr. Bin Laden doesn't have your interest in that regard as one of his priorities, in fact, just the opposite.

There simply is no other choice other than to support the elected government to the hilt. The decision for peace or war has been effectively taken out of our hands. They made the decision. Not us. The train has left the station. Our hands have been forced, and now we must blow the hell out of them. Let's call it, to steal some phraselogy from another war (the WOD) ongoing in this country, harm reduction.....

We need to reduce the potential harm to us that Mr. Bin Laden can cause, and also help out the Afghan people and remove this bacteria from the Afghan body. We have the antibiotics for this, and we must strap down the patient, and ensure that proper medication and care is administered...

81 posted on 09/24/2001 7:27:18 PM PDT by TKEman
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To: A. Pole
...Imperial Federal Government...

...Neil Boortz, libertarian talk show host.(do I have too much free time?)

82 posted on 09/24/2001 7:28:46 PM PDT by gargoyle
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To: Scholastic, firehat, gonzo, Jim Scott, ConsistentLibertarian, Southern Rock, Unalienable, jellybean,
bttt
83 posted on 09/24/2001 7:29:14 PM PDT by Rebeckie
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To: Rebeckie
........But I am wary of George W. Bush's leadership and personality traits, sorry, but even if he gave a couple of great speeches; saying something and then actually following through in politics is something of a statistical anamoly. ........

But at this point in time President Bush is what you have......(not gonna have another election until 04). Now either you support the effort or you don't.

84 posted on 09/24/2001 7:33:14 PM PDT by deport
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To: sendtoscott
This is all a concern that worries me. You are right, it will be tough to get rid of some of this stuff. It really worries me. However, we can't allow the prosecution of the war, and maintaining security here at home to be hamstrung by such concerns right now. We have to prevent further attacks and also win the war. There's no other option.
85 posted on 09/24/2001 7:34:47 PM PDT by TKEman
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To: TKEman
You're hanging with the pro-fascism crowd in your quest. I realize the need to pull together, but do you understand their goals? Their ultimate motives? I think you do but are flushing it in the name of patriotism. I've always been an American patriot but I see little need to ally with my natural enemies even in times of war.

When they turn on you, don't cry about it. You were warned.

86 posted on 09/24/2001 7:34:52 PM PDT by Inspector Harry Callahan
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To: sendtoscott
Another thing I forgot to mention. While I voted for Bush, I think if you look at my posting history, you'll see I'm not a blind Bush supporter.....
87 posted on 09/24/2001 7:37:57 PM PDT by TKEman
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To: Cultural Jihad
Thank you. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
88 posted on 09/24/2001 7:38:12 PM PDT by Aurelius
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To: Cultural Jihad
Thank you. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
89 posted on 09/24/2001 7:39:08 PM PDT by Aurelius
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To: Rebeckie
There's an old division in the American political tradition coming out again here. All our founding fathers believed in limited, responsible government, and opposed giving anyone arbitrary power over others, be it king or majority. But they divided over the relationship of freedom and government.

Jefferson and his followers tended to believe in a simple equation: more government, less freedom; less government, more freedom. Government is by its nature a conspiracy against liberty so the more hamstrung it is, the more we will be free.

Washington and those around him believed that government needed to be limited and responsible, but not weak. They believed that without the peace and order government imposed each one became the slave of the stronger. Jeffersonians thought that if you take away government you get "freemen." Washington thought that if you take away government you get warlords terrorizing slaves.

So for the second group of founders, government is both the friend and the enemy of government. Of course governments, being run by human beings, will overreach if given the opportunity. But it isn't true that weakening government always strengthens freedom. Sometimes weakening government endangers freedom. Sometimes government has to be strengthened to protect freedom.

After 9-11, some of us are looking twice at the simple equation, "Less government = more freedom." When the government meant Bill Clinton, that was easy to agree with. When the government means the people responsible for defending the nation, it doesn't seem as plausible to some of us.

I don't have a lot of patience, and as a result I have sometimes posted too vehemently, with people who harrumph about giving up freedom for safety. Excuse me, go and look at WTC ground zero. You call that freedom? What kind of freedom will any American have if we are subjected to such monstrous exercises of arbitrary power? I don't think John Ashcroft or Tom Ridge are likely to make me anymore unfree than the people who were hijacked on those flights, or those people who were trying to go about their business in the WTC and the Pentagon.

I have no desire to give the government a blank check, but yes, I do think that we are called upon to make compromises. Not compromises for the sake of safety without liberty, but compromises in the short term to secure liberty in the long term.

No, I don't imagine all the measures that need to be taken in the short term will be easily or automatically withdrawn after our victory. I hope to have the freedom to fight those battles someday and not be living at the mercy of terror in a nation dissolving into chaos. But that is not where the battle for liberty is being fought today. Today the battle is with terrorism, so that when terrorism has been defeated, we may have the freedom to go on disputing and debating about freedom.

90 posted on 09/24/2001 7:43:41 PM PDT by Southern Federalist
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To: Inspector Harry Callahan
I understand their goals perfectly well. Yes, you are right. I'm flushing my concerns for now, since there's no other choice. Had you saw the Pentagon burning, like I did, and came home to an apartment smelling like smoke, I think you'd have a different view.

I feel there's no other option. We must win the war, and I'm willing to chuck aside my concerns to a large degree in order to do so. It's in the country's best interest. I need to be alive to exercise what rights I have.

I fail to see why you don't understand that, and the ramifications of this attack. Hell, a crop duster could fly any day over your home, and spray all of you in southern Virginia with anthrax.

I understand and deeply respect your concerns. I see no other choice.

91 posted on 09/24/2001 7:45:25 PM PDT by TKEman
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To: Rebeckie
"I would fully support a war against whomever is responsible for these terrible acts against our country..."

You're just not willing to make any personal sacrifices in support of that effort? In your own defense?

92 posted on 09/24/2001 7:45:46 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: Inspector Harry Callahan
"You're hanging with the pro-fascism crowd in your quest. I realize the need to pull together, but do you understand their goals? Their ultimate motives?"

Okay, who leaked the secret agenda to you? We have some damage control needed here!

93 posted on 09/24/2001 7:47:10 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: Southern Federalist
Extremely well put. So much so I wish I'd posted it.
94 posted on 09/24/2001 7:48:27 PM PDT by TKEman
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To: Luis Gonzalez, Miss Marple, William Wallace, Victoria Delsoul, Jim Robinson
Thought you might like to see the long response I just posted on this thread. I stuck in in here trying to avoid a vanity.
95 posted on 09/24/2001 7:50:09 PM PDT by Southern Federalist
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To: gargoyle
Neil Boortz, libertarian talk show host.(do I have too much free time?)

Nah, just good taste in talk radio.

96 posted on 09/24/2001 7:50:16 PM PDT by Storm Orphan
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To: Inspector Harry Callahan
I think you make a good point Harry. My opinion is that this is war and I am anxiously awaiting the kicking of major terrorist ass. However, I am prepared to give up the same amount of civil liberties now as I was willing to give up under the Clinton administration which is, ZERO.

Whatever we are prepared to fork over now and whatever powers we are prepared to give the government now, we are giving not just to the current administration, but every future administration of this country. And I think that many people would not be so willing to toss out their rights out the window if it were Gore/Lieberman leading the USA.

This is a time to be cautious in our anger. Look at the numerous idiotic measures being taken at the airports as result of the attack. Everyone has to use a "spork" at the airport concessesion stand because of these attacks, even though no one tried to hijack a plane with the plastic knife they use to spread jelly on their Egg McMuffin while waiting to board a plane. No one is allowed to park at LAX, they have to park outside the airport and take a cab to get to departures. Of course, how many bin Laden associates were cab drivers in Boston? Good thing we let the cabs drive right up to the doors but not the airline passengers. These gestures may make people feel "safe" but they are empty and ultimately useless.

I see no reason that citizens have to start throwing out their rights because of these events. Once you give them up, you don't get them back.

97 posted on 09/24/2001 7:52:13 PM PDT by diotima
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To: Jim Robinson
This is NOT the Balkins. This is America defending her own soil and her own blood.

Yes -- a big difference!

98 posted on 09/24/2001 7:54:07 PM PDT by FreeReign
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To: Storm Orphan
...Thanks, I concur, no dittos here...
99 posted on 09/24/2001 7:54:44 PM PDT by gargoyle
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To: Southern Federalist, Irma, Miss Marple, Howlin,
SF a very good response..... in your post #90
100 posted on 09/24/2001 7:57:14 PM PDT by deport
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