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Jesus Christ: The Sum and Subtance of Biblical Prophecy
Modern Reformation Magazine ^ | September/October 2001 edition | Kim Riddlebarger

Posted on 10/10/2001 5:20:52 AM PDT by sola gracia

Jesus Christ:
The Sum and Substance of Biblical Prophecy

By Kim Riddlebarger

Many Christians assume that only limited sections of the Scriptures contain any reference to "future things." This outlook, in effect, limits eschatology to those issues relating to the timing of the Rapture, to speculation about political events in the Middle East and Israel, as well as to the debate about the nature of Christ's millennial reign upon the earth after his return. This reasoning produces the ironic situation in which those who speak most frequently about eschatology actually have the least to say. By limiting eschatology and Bible prophecy to the Rapture and the millennium, and by tying Old Testament prophecies to literal future fulfillments, the proper place of Christ's role in biblical prophecy is eclipsed.

It is important to step back from the details of Bible prophecy and look carefully at the big picture. We must gaze upon the entire panorama of redemption from a distance. The story begins with creation. Next, we consider the fall of the human race into sin as the backdrop for redemptive history. Redemptive history is exactly what its name implies -- the biblical account of God delivering his people from the guilt and power of sin resulting from the fall. Then, we look ahead to see the final goal. But the end is not merely paradise regained. The final goal is paradise glorified! As William Dumbrell reminds us, "In very broad terms the biblical sweep is from creation to the new creation by way of redemption, which is, in effect, the renewing of creation." This sweeping vision is set out in the opening chapters of God's self-revelation. Genesis 1 and 2 speak of creation and paradise, while Genesis 3 speaks of the fall into sin and paradise lost. From the moment paradise is lost and the curse is pronounced upon the race, God is already promising final redemption (Gen. 3:15). We need not wait until the end of the story to learn that God's mercy and justice will triumph over human sin and its consequences for God's people. Even before the specific details in the drama of redemptive history begin to unfold, the outcome is certain. God has decreed that he will redeem his people from their sin and that one day he will renew his creation. When all is said and done, no hint or trace of the stain of sin will remain. No longer will there be any curse.

To understand Christ's role in biblical prophecy, we must understand something of the various covenants that are found throughout both testaments. Covenants between kings and their servants formed the basis of much of daily life in the ancient near-eastern world, especially in matters legal and financial. This was certainly true for ancient Israel. From a biblical perspective, covenants take on even greater importance, since Israel's king is the great king, and the nation is his chosen vassal because of his sovereign will.

When considered in the context of the Old Testament, a covenant may be defined as "a relationship under sanctions." In each of the Old Testament covenants there are two parties involved, God and his people, or their divinely chosen representative such as Abraham or Moses. In these covenantal relationships, the two parties relate to each other in terms of blessing and curse, the outcome depending upon faithfulness to the terms set forth by the covenants. Like a contract, when terms of the covenant are fulfilled, the servant receives the blessing promised by the great king. But should the obligations of the covenant not be met, the covenant curse, in the form of previously agreed-upon sanctions between God and his people, is imposed.

The major covenants in the Old Testament take two basic forms, covenants of promise and covenants of law. In covenants of promise and blessing, God himself swears the covenant oath to fulfill all the terms and conditions of the covenant. In covenants of works or law, the people of God swear the oath of ratification.

The most prominent case of a covenant of promise is God's covenant with Abraham as recorded in Genesis 15. It is God who sovereignly approaches Abram and swears on oath to him -- "Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your very great reward." As Abram falls into a deep sleep, he is given a vision of a smoking firepot passing through butchered halves of various animals, a goat, a ram, a dove, and a pigeon. The implication of the vision is clear to someone like Abraham, steeped in ancient covenants and rituals of ratification. If Jehovah fails to be Abram's great reward and shield, the covenant curse, which is graphically pictured by the severed animals, is to fall upon Jehovah himself, the one who swears the oath and initiates the covenant rituals.

When the dream ends, we are told, "on that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram" (v. 18). Notice that in this particular covenant which God makes with Abram, it is God who swears the oath of ratification, making this covenant a covenant of promise. As is typical in such ancient covenants, the Lord also defines the geographic boundaries within which the terms of the covenant apply. This explains why the account of the ratification of this covenant in Genesis 15 includes the list of peoples who reside between the two great rivers, the Nile and the Euphrates. This promise of a land was gloriously fulfilled when Joshua led the people of God back into Canaan (Josh. 1:2–9). As Joshua puts it: "So the Lord gave Israel all the land he had sworn to give their forefathers, and they took possession of it and settled there" (Josh. 21:43; cf. also 1 Kings 4:20–21).

Perhaps the clearest illustration of the latter type of covenant -- a covenant of law -- is found in Exodus 24, in which the people of God, not Jehovah, swear the covenant oath of ratification. According to the amazing account we find in Exodus 24, Jehovah called Moses, Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, along with seventy elders, up to Mount Sinai where the group was to worship him at a distance. But Moses -- the covenant mediator anticipating the true covenant mediator, Jesus Christ -- was to approach God alone. "When Moses went and told the people all of the Lord's words and laws, they responded with one voice. 'Everything the Lord has said, we will do.' Moses then wrote down everything the Lord had said (v. 7)." Unlike the covenant of promise that God made with Abram, in covenants of works/law, such as the covenant ratified at Sinai, God does not swear the oath of ratification. Rather, it is the people who do so. The covenant God made with Israel is ratified by his people, who by swearing their obedience on oath, will receive the promised blessings of the Mosaic covenant if they obey, or the covenant curses if they disobey. The particular blessings and curses associated with this covenant are spelled out in Deuteronomy 27–30.

With the distinction between these two kinds of covenants -- promise and law -- in mind, we can turn to the two overarching covenants -- the covenant of works/creation and the covenant of grace/redemption -- under which these individual covenants of law and promise are to be subsumed. This, too, is a very important point to keep in mind, because the covenant of works and the covenant of grace progressively unfold throughout the Old Testament. The way in which they do says a great deal about how we are to understand the eschatology of the Bible and why we must keep Christ at the center.

These two over-arching covenants enable us to see the continuity that exists between the individual covenants we find throughout the Old Testament. The covenant God makes with Abraham, and then subsequently with his descendants Isaac and Jacob, and then with Israel, are not isolated covenants with no organic connection with what goes before or after. Rather, the particular covenants that God makes with his people are individual and repeated ratifications of the one covenant of grace, which is first promised in Eden, and then later ratified with Abraham, the father of all those who believe.

Seeing the essential continuity between these covenants is important at a number of levels. It prevents us from mistakenly seeing the Old Testament as essentially Law and the New Testament as essentially Gospel. Rather, there is Law and Gospel in both testaments. This covenantal structure also enables us to safeguard the clear teaching of the New Testament, that there is but one Gospel (Gal. 3:8), one plan of salvation (Eph. 1:4–6), one covenant mediator (1 Tim. 2:5), and one common faith (Eph. 4:4–6). This also enables us to understand how the individual covenants in the Old Testament are often framed in terms of promise, while in the New, they are framed in terms of fulfillment. The individual covenants with Abraham, Moses, and David, as part of a larger covenantal structure, foreshadow that New Covenant ratified by the blood of Christ (Heb. 10:11–18). The redemptive events found throughout the Old Testament are unintelligible apart from this covenantal structure and emphasis upon God's promise of a coming redeemer, who is also the covenant mediator.

Therefore, as redemptive history begins to unfold, it is the first Adam -- the biological and federal representative of all humanity -- who fails to do as God has commanded under the terms of the covenant of works. It was the Lord God who said to Adam, "You must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it, you will surely die" (Gen. 2:17). This covenant of works -- or as some Reformed writers speak of it, the "covenant of creation" -- lies at the very heart of redemptive history. Under the terms of this covenant, God demands perfect obedience from Adam, who will either obey the terms of the covenant and receive God's blessing, eternal life in a glorified Eden, or else fail to keep the covenant and bring the covenant sanction down upon himself, and all those whom he represents, namely, all of humanity. Adam's act of rebellion brings the curse of death upon the entire human race. This covenant of works is never subsequently abrogated in the Scriptures, a point empirically verified whenever death strikes. This covenant also undergirds the teaching of Scripture, which states that for any of Adam's fallen children to be saved, someone must fulfill all the terms of the covenant of works without so much as a single infraction, in thought, in word, or in deed (Matt. 5:48; 1 Pet. 1:16).

Although some argue that there is no such covenant between God and Adam because the phrase "covenant of works" or "covenant of creation" does not explicitly appear in the biblical text, not only are all the elements of a covenant present in God's dealings with Adam but the later biblical writers refer back to the account of Eden in precisely these terms. The prophet Hosea tells us that Israel will come under God's judgment, because "like Adam, they have broken my covenant." In Romans 5:18–21, the perfect obedience required by this covenant is spelled out, in part, when Paul writes that sinners are declared righteous on the condition of Christ's obedience on their behalf. Here, the critical question is simply this: "Obedient to what?" Paul's answer is that Jesus Christ is perfectly obedient to that same covenant which the first Adam disobeyed. The resurrection is proof that Christ fulfilled the terms of this covenant, because after laying down his life for our sins, God raised him up, Lord of life (Rom. 4:25).

Since Adam is the federal head of all those countless men and women who will spring from his loins, once he disobeys the covenant of works, he plunges the entire human race into the guilt and consequences of sin. Although the curse subjects all of humanity, as well as all of creation, to the bondage of the guilt and power of sin, God has decreed to redeem both his people and his world. From the very outset, then, the unfolding drama of redemption will be one in which God seeks to rescue men and women from the guilt of Adam's sin, as well as undo the consequences of Adam's act of rebellion upon all of creation.

The very fact that God demands perfect obedience from his creatures, even from the beginning of the drama of redemption, necessitates the coming of a second Adam who will be obedient unto death (Phil. 2:8), and who will become "sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God" (2 Cor. 5:21). The Fall necessitates the coming of a redeemer, a redeemer who must fulfill the terms of the original covenant of works which Adam had failed to keep. In addition, the redeemer himself must establish a covenant of grace in which God will deliver Adam's fallen children. Yet he must do so without sacrificing his justice to manifest his love for lost and fallen sinners. This is why the promised redeemer will die upon a cross, something beyond the realm of imagination for an Old Testament believer looking for a deliverer to come. This truth becomes all the more remarkable when we consider that when Jesus Christ dies upon the cross, he bears in his own body those very same covenant curses, which God showed Abram in Genesis 15 (Gal. 3:13).

When God placed Adam under the covenant of works, Adam failed to obey. Adam and his family were cast from Eden and never allowed to return. This recurring theme of God making a covenant, the subsequent disobedience of his people, the consequences of the covenant curse resulting in his people being cast from the land of promise, resurfaces throughout in the drama of redemption. At Mount Sinai, God placed Israel under the Law, epitomized by the Ten Commandments, in which were codified all of the requirements of the covenant of works. The commandments were written upon the heart because all of Adam's children bear God's divine image. But Israel, too, failed to keep God's commandments, which brought a curse upon the people in the form of the curse sanction of being removed from the land.

In his forbearance, God sent his prophets to call his disobedient people to repentance. But Israel repeatedly showed contempt for God by increasing her sins and killing God's messengers. Like Adam, the nation came under God's covenant judgment and was cast from the land. This time, God's people were not cast from Eden. They were cast from Canaan, that very land that God had promised to Abraham. Adam had failed. Now Israel had failed. A redeemer was still needed, who would fulfill the covenant of works. "For what the Law was powerless to do ... God did by sending his own son in the likeness of sinful man" (Rom. 8:3).

All of this is important to keep in mind because it means that the history of redemption is the progressive unfolding of a covenant of works and a covenant of grace throughout the whole of Scripture. These two covenants -- the essence of what is known as covenant theology -- will continue to resurface throughout the eschatology of both testaments. It is in the progressive development of these two covenants that the person of Jesus Christ -- the only mediator between God and man and that redeemer promised throughout the whole Old Testament -- is revealed.

This understanding explains why the coming redeemer is revealed as a second Adam. He is not only the covenant mediator, but the one who as the new representative of God's people is also Lord over all creation. It is the second Adam who ushers in a new creation when he rises again from the dead that first Easter morning. Therefore, it is in the person and work of Jesus Christ, that the seemingly diverse themes of covenant and new creation, join perfectly together. When the second Adam justifies the many through his own perfect obedience, he does so in terms of the new and better covenant, a covenant in which God will declare sinners as righteous because of the merits of Jesus Christ and in which God fulfills all of the promises that he made to Abraham. As the Apostle Paul puts it in his second letter to the Corinthians, to participate in Christ's reconciling work is likewise to participate in the new creation (2 Cor. 5:17). This new creation, which is nothing less than a paradise glorified, is also that New Jerusalem, which John depicts as follows: "No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and the lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. They will see his face" (Rev. 22:3–4). Once again, God and humanity will dwell together just as they did in Eden, only this time "for ever and ever."

The connection between the new creation and the covenant of grace is important to keep in mind. The one who makes all things new, Jesus Christ, is also the mediator of the covenant of grace. Therefore, the new creation and the covenant of grace are forever joined together in the person and work of Jesus Christ who has died for our sins and was raised for our justification. This reminds us that the basic panorama of redemptive history is creation, fall, and redemption. And creation, fall, and redemption play themselves out in redemptive history in terms of God's dealing with his creatures in terms of the covenants of both testaments. This means that Jesus Christ is the sum and substance of all biblical prophecy.

Dr. Kim Riddlebarger is a graduate of California State University in Fullerton (B.A.), Westminster Theological Seminary in California (M.A.R.), and Fuller Theological Seminary (Ph.D.). Kim has contributed chapters to books such as Power Religion: The Selling Out of the Evangelical Church, Roman Catholicism: Evangelical Protestants Analyze What Unites & Divides Us, and Christ The Lord: The Reformation & Lordship Salvation, and is currently the pastor of Christ Reformed Church in Anaheim, California.

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To: Middle of the Road
Mohammed (diuh)

(diuh) = Damnation IS upon him. He has already discovered the anger of Jehovah God and His only begotten son, Jesus the Christ.

51 posted on 10/10/2001 2:27:22 PM PDT by Jerry_M
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To: Middle of the Road
"Zionist web-site"

You haven't been around long, have you?

Find in Forum

Middle of the Road member since October 9th, 2001

Could it be that you have another agenda?

52 posted on 10/10/2001 2:32:16 PM PDT by Jerry_M
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To: Middle of the Road
Peace be unto you. (and we are the violent ones)

The only weapon being used here is the word of God.You are free in this Nation to worship as you please..

The men here offer to you the word of God,to convict you of the error of Islam.

They are not threat to your life...they bring to you an offer of eternal life,not based on who you are or what you have done.But based on Who the truly Holy one,Jesus is and what He has done .They offer to you the gospel of Jesus Christ,they offer you LIFE

"My peace I give you"

53 posted on 10/10/2001 2:33:08 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Middle of the Road:Jerry_M:all
#46: "...I will neverstand before Jesus(pbuh) I will stand before God and be judged by God..."

[John 5:22] "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgement to the Son, [23] that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him."

Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man. He is forever "Theanthropus" the "God-Man"... the FIRST-born of many brethren in a bodily resurrection from the dead.

54 posted on 10/10/2001 2:41:50 PM PDT by Matchett-PI
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To: Matchett-PI; Jerry_M; RnMomof7; and all
[John 5:22] "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgement to the Son, [23] that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him."

Gadzooks Batman! I missed that one.....


55 posted on 10/10/2001 2:49:50 PM PDT by CCWoody
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To: Middle of the Road:Jerry_M:OldGlory:All
#28: "What I meant was if the Bible, the Torah, and the Quran and any other revealed book(book from GOD)say the same thing then I think that is the absolute truth."

It's good you used the word "if".

The "Holy" (God-breathed) Bible (which includes the Torah (in the Old Testament), is the only inspired, books.

By the way, I see your screen name is "Middle of the Road", does that mean you view yourself as a "moderate" whatever? Here's a question for you:

Was Mohammed, the founder of Islam, himself, a "peaceful moderate", so-called "middle of the roader"? Read on:

Chapters from the Koran. Excerpted Introductory Note:

"THE ANCIENT religion of the Arabs was the worship of the stars. ... The chief seat of this .... worship was the city of Mecca...".

1 Mohammed was born in 571 A. D. His father died before he was born, and his mother when he was only six. In his youth he tended sheep and goats, and at twenty-four he was employed to drive caravans of camels by a rich widow, ‘Hadïgah, whom he married.

2 When he was forty, while wandering alone on a desolate mountain near Mecca, he had a vision. An angel appeared to him and told him to read, and recited certain verses.

From youth he had suffered from a kind of hysteria, and this vision seems to have increased his tendency to hallucinations and ecstasy.

There was an intermission of two or three years before the vision reappeared, after which revelations came rapidly.

He became convinced of his prophetic mission, and began to make converts, the first being the **women** of his own family.

3 For years, however, the new religion made little progress, and the prophet underwent great hardships, finally having to flee from Mecca to Medinah. From this “Flight,” which took place in 622 A. D., the Mohammedan era dates.

Two years later began the Holy War, and from this time on Mohammedanism was extended largely by the sword.

When its founder died in 632, it was firmly established as a great political power as well as a religion; and it is now said to be the belief of about a hundred and seventy millions of people.~

The Harvard Classics.1909–14: Chapters from the Koran

56 posted on 10/10/2001 3:08:30 PM PDT by Matchett-PI
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Comment #57 Removed by Moderator

To: Middle of the Road:Jerry_M: OldGlory:BibChr:All
#57: "you ignorant bastard ... I am definately no liberal ... you are exactly like them hypocrits .... Islam is the fastest growing religion. WHY? ... because it is pure, peaceful and unites ... I am wasting my time here it seems you can't talk ... Once again Peace be unto you."

You do sound quite peaceful. :)

I see that in your emotional, knee-jerk *reaction* you have totally ignored the *issues* I set forth, and didn't address, or attempt to refute, any of the points I copied in #56 from the Harvard Classics web site about the Johnny-come-lately "founder" of Islam.

Nor did you provide proof refuting what I said about the "God" you deny that you will be judged by. Has anyone ever told you that you have already lost your "argument" when you call people names and make personal attacks on them?

Emotionally immature people are quite unreasonable, unstable and volatile. There is hope for some of them, though. They may grow up ... given time.

58 posted on 10/10/2001 4:43:15 PM PDT by Matchett-PI
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To: Middle of the Road
Middle of the Road wrote:

"Did Jesus(pbuh) create the heavens and the earth? Does Jesus(pbuh) make it rain? Does Jesus(pbuh) Give life or death without God? There was another prophet you might want to do some research on his name is Malachi he was another begotten son."

Dude - your turban is too tight. What the hell are you saying? Is there a point? Did you join on October 9th just to say that?

59 posted on 10/10/2001 7:00:39 PM PDT by artios
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To: Middle of the Road; Matchett-PI; Jerry_M
You guys scream about politians you are exactly like them hypocrits. Its not Mohemmedanism yourreligion is after a man not mine. Like I said earlier anyone can take the Bible and do the same exact thing as you have done with the Quran.

So, why didn't you? I love my Saviour enough to proclaim His, and only His Salvation BTW, to you. (1 Peter 3:15)

Oh, and I do not have religion, but Relationship. I have the Living God who lives within me. (Romans 8:16) What do you have that can possibly compare to that?

Islam is the fastest growing religion. WHY? Because it's violent and radical! No because it is pure, peaceful and unites all races colors and creeds. Of course it is hard for you KKK Zionist CNN watching people to accept any other people or religion.

I count myself blessed to have been cursed because of the Name of Jesus.

I am wasting my time here it seems you can't talk and find some common ground here because it is agree with you lunatics or off with your head. I will try to seperate this web-sites opinion from the rest of the country and just consider this a radical organization. Once again Peace be unto you.

I'm not interested in common ground unless it is the High Ground of the Rock of Salvation; Jesus Christ who is He who lives, and was dead, and is alive forevermore. My glorious God holds the keys of Hades and Death. (Revelation 1:18) If you wish to stand with me on this unCommon ground, then I will welcome the fellowship and count you my brother.

BTW, the difference between us is that vengence is not mine, but it belongs to Christ. (Romans 12:19) The Bible teaches me also to feed my enemies and give him drink. (Romans 12:20) So, tell me, considering that we are even now dropping medicine and food to hungry Afgans, who has a better faith?

60 posted on 10/10/2001 7:51:31 PM PDT by CCWoody
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To: Middle of the Road; Matchett-PI; Jerry_M; RnMomof7; Mark17
you ignorant bastard...

Actually, we are not the ones without a Spiritual Father. We have a Mighty God who has poured out his blood to redeem us; who has Shed his Grace upon us. (Hebrews - you pick the chapter, but try 10:14)

My Lord God Jesus will be in the midst of the saints and he will rejoice over us with His gladness, He will quiet us in His love, and he will rejoice over us with His singing. (Zephaniah 3:17) He will do so with His whole heart.

Again, what do you have that can possibly compare?

61 posted on 10/10/2001 8:08:17 PM PDT by CCWoody
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To: artios
Very well written: I express my feelings of Christ in poetry: Here is one I wrote in 1996:

He Is Eternity

Why does His name live on
when all others are long gone
forgotten but for a passage in history
what is the secret of His sweet mystery?

All who tormented and abused Him
forgotten in historical dim
His followers were few
but they remained true

Would a man hang hinself for a liar
would men suffer persecution for a fraud
would men walk thru fire
except it be for the LORD?

Why was His life so signicant?
He taught but for a few years
three only and yet
His crucifixion brings us to tears

But wait, they are tears of joy
He rose from the grave in three days
taking the keys of death from their keeper
we no longer have to fear the grim reaper

His promise is everlasting life
no fear, no pain, no strife
if we but see and perceive
that He is eternity

Copyright (1999). All Rights Reserved
July 11, 1996

62 posted on 10/10/2001 8:33:06 PM PDT by poet
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To: CCWoody
"you ignorant bastard..."


And they say that the Calvinism/Arminianism debates get "nasty"?

Of course, this "godless infidel" (Middle of the road) has shown us his true colors. The characteristics of unregenerate "flesh" have shown through all the talk of "love" and "peace".

63 posted on 10/11/2001 6:07:58 AM PDT by Jerry_M
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To: Middle of the Road
"Islam is the fastest growing religion."

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. (Jesus, God in the flesh, Matthew 7:13-14)

Satan is the "deceiver of the nations". We are told in Revelation Chapter 20 that those who follow after him are more numerous than the sands of the seashore. I have absolutely no problem with believing that Islam, as well as other abominable cults, is experiencing an explosion of growth.

You still haven't responded to my earlier point. Why is it that Christianity led to the formation of the USA, and Islam leads to the formation of repressive regimes like that found in Afghanistan? Your fruit is rotten.

64 posted on 10/11/2001 6:21:10 AM PDT by Jerry_M
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To: Jerry_M, Midddle of the Road Diaper Head
Here is what I heard:

All muslim governments now and throughout all history are all tyrannical, despotic murderous and oppressive regimes. They murder Jews and Christians and thier chief aim is "peace" through death to all infidels. Islam means everyone else has been murdered - that is the lesson of all history regardless of what the Q'uran says. Muslims teach their children to lay low while in the minority and then rage like a lion and take over when in the majority. That is what they did to Bosnia, Serbia and now America. It is not a religion of peace - it is a religion of death to all who disagree. They lie, cheat, steal and murder in the name of their god - the god of this world - satan.

I am looking for evidence to refute it. So far muslims have not denounced the mass murder of civilians except to say "murdering an innocent is sin" - BUT they do not think Americans are innocent - because they also go one to say why we are guilt of bad foreign policy etc etc.... Middle of the Road diaper head has only seemed to confirm the horrible hypothesis.

65 posted on 10/11/2001 12:44:02 PM PDT by artios
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To: Jerry_M
And they say that the Calvinism/Arminianism debates get "nasty"?

I hear thats more than a rumor *grin*

66 posted on 10/11/2001 6:41:21 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: artios
I had to come back for one last post after listening to The President of the "United" States.

"these people HIGHJACKED a religion"

"Islam is a religion of peace"

"Please my fellow Americans don't use this as an excuse to pick on someone because they look different than you or "have a different religious belief" because that is what makes OUR country great!"(Freepers he was talking to you!!!0

"This is NOT a war on Islam

"Many Muslim leaders have come out against these evil doers"

"jewish and christian women went shopping with the muslim women who were afraid of being attacked"(by Freepers!!!!)You heard everything he said and I could go on and on but I have wasted enough time energy and emotion with you "radicals" I came into this web-site because of my father who belongs and I saw all the blasphemy and misinfomation about Islam so I thought I would shed some light on Islam-I had the best of intentions- You would of done the same thing had it been an attack on Christianity, unfortunately it turned into even more of an attack against me personally and my religion which is what I believe in NOW STRONGER THAN EVER.

I have shared this with two others in your organization privately, but seeing this is my last post I'll share with you all. I am a 31 year old whiteMale married to a christian women with 2 unbelievably gorgeous children. I was born and raised a Christian, went to a Christian school, involved in christian youth groups and programs, preached the gospel "according" to Matthew, mark, luke, and John etc......and in my search for questions I had that my answers were you got to have faith I prayed to God and asked him for answers asked Him for the truth and I was introduced to Islam and three years later I testified that there is NO GOD, but GOD, he has NO partners and nothing is equal to or greater than him and Mohommed is his slave and messenger.

I have studied many religions and have a certain respect for all. Go back and read the posts and tell me how tolerant, respectful, and understanding the "Freerepublic" is.

Funny thing is I stood with you guys across the street from the Vice Presidents house chanting "get out of Chaney's house" I stood in front of The Supreme Court with you the day of the Ruling and I was a Muslim fighting for and representing what was right along with other Jews and Christians. Religion is a tough, personal, and emotional topic, feelings get hurt and it is unfortunate. Now, we disagree on something, and the true reasons why is because of your ignorance and I don't mean that in a bad way you(most Freepers) have no knowledge about true Islam they see what the Washington Post says about it. My Dad is the biggest Post basher especially during the election he would say its a "Communist newspaper" but now everything it says is the gospel(no pun intended!) I keep telling him it is still the same "Communist Paper" I took a screen name Middle of the Road because I knew how far right you guys are (and I'm not that far)and I'm definately not a liberal I wouldn't be allowed to work with my dad if I was! I started making some posts to try to come to some common ground with you people to try and educate and in return got bits and pieces of my statements cut and the bible quoted to me how i along with all my "diaper-headed" "turbin to tight" muslim brothers and sisters are going to hell.

This is a world topic about terrorism not Islam the President that you and I voted for said it several times himself! There is a verse in the Quran that says-Surah 42 8-hopefully i can stop If God had so willed, He could have make them a single people; but He Admits whom He will To His Mercy;And the wrong-doers Will have no protector Nor helper What! Have they taken for worship protectors other than God? but it is God-He is the Protector, and it is He who gives life to the dead:It is He who has powers over all things. Whatever it be wherein Ye differ, the decision Thereof is with God Such is God my lord: In Him I trust, and to Him I turn. He is the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth. To him belong the keys of the heavens and the earth.almost doneThe same religion has He established for you as that Which He enjoined Noah- The which We have sent By inspiration to thee_ And that which We enjoined On Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely that ye should remain steadfast in Religion and make no divisions therein To those who worship other things than God Hard is the way To which thow callest them. God chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself Those who turn to Him,/b>

Who knows how to end this? Thanks for reading it, apologies will be accepted both by personal and public posts. And May God Bless America, Your Families, The Innocent people abroad. May God make it easy to see his signs and get us back to whats important Love of God, Family, Friends, and Neighbors. Peace

67 posted on 10/11/2001 8:07:41 PM PDT by Middle of the Road
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To: Jerry_M; Middle of the Road
Now, it will be far better for you to bow your knee before Him now....

This is otherwise known as the argument from the future; the "Join Us or Die" argument.
It's been used for thousands of years.

68 posted on 10/11/2001 8:16:23 PM PDT by dbbeebs
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Comment #69 Removed by Moderator

To: Middle of the Road
"I have studied many religions and have a certain respect for all"

"Zionist"? "Ignorant bastard"? "Certain respect"?

If you go back and read, you will see that the opening post in this thread deals with the supremacy of Jesus Christ. When you came along and injected that your Islam was on a par with Christianity, there were a number of us here who felt it to be our duty to point out to you that all roads do not lead to God. It was Jesus Himself who stated that He is the only way to God, and we believe Him. You are the one who proved to be disrespectful.

70 posted on 10/12/2001 6:23:36 AM PDT by Jerry_M
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To: Jerry_M
everything that I wrote and thats what you took from it?

You go above and read everything again and see who was disrespectful. If I was I APOLOGIZE to ALL who I disrespected, emotions get involved with religion and mine did get away from me.

This thread started as a "biblical prophecy" and turned into an Islam bashing session way before I posted anything.

It is my hope that others got more out of what I wrote than what Jerry did.

71 posted on 10/12/2001 6:38:41 AM PDT by Middle of the Road
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To: Middle of the Road
"This thread started as a "biblical prophecy" and turned into an Islam bashing session way before I posted anything."

You sir, are a liar. There was no mention of Islam prior to your interjecting it into the conversation. You are the one who has been disrespectful. Are you so stupid as to think that people cannot read the thread and see that this is so?

72 posted on 10/12/2001 6:54:47 AM PDT by Jerry_M
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To: Middle of the Road; CCWoody; RnMomof7; artios; Matchett-PI
Re. your 67. Something does't sound right. You state that you grew up as a Christian, and actually "preached the Gospel" prior to your Islamic enlightenedment. Yet, you showed yourself to be completely ignorant as to what Christians would believe about the nature of Jesus Christ in your earlier posts. You asked whether Jesus had made us, whether He made the rain, etc. If you had been a "christian", even nominally, you would have known that Christians consider Jesus Christ to be God. You would have known that we consider Him to be far more than a prophet. You would have known things that would have resulted in your not being so clueless.

I guess that when you start telling lies, you don't know where to stop.

73 posted on 10/12/2001 7:07:21 AM PDT by Jerry_M
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To: Middle of the Road
All three religeons are based on more or less similar ideas. They were written by desert men who think that they are superior to women. Yet they all like virgins!
74 posted on 10/12/2001 7:17:00 AM PDT by philosofy123
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To: Middle of the Road
All three religeons are based on more or less similar ideas. They were written by desert men who think that they are superior to women. Yet they all like virgins!
75 posted on 10/12/2001 7:19:16 AM PDT by philosofy123
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To: Matchett-PI
From youth he had suffered from a kind of hysteria, and this vision seems to have increased his tendency to hallucinations and ecstasy.

There was an intermission of two or three years before the vision reappeared, after which revelations came rapidly.
This sounds familiar. I've read about this sort of thing before.
76 posted on 10/12/2001 7:32:09 AM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: Middle of the Road;Jerry_M; CCWoody; artios; Matchett-PI
You were the first to raise #10..very early in what may have been an interesting Christian discussion.

We live in America where the cry of victimhood is heard through out the land..but in this case the proof is right here for all that care to raised Islam just looking for a fight.To say otherwise is a lie and you know it.

You got what you wanted..but in the process showed a side of Islam that is not pretty...You started with a lie,and then another lie,and then anger, then rebukes..and then returned to the lie..

You have a right to worship as you please,but please do not expect to find ANY common ground with the followers of Jesus Christ,there is NONE

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

Our Spiritual differences lead to Christians being stoned to death in Muslim countries,not just a few sharp words..we have no Spiritual fellowship, Middle..not now not ever!

77 posted on 10/12/2001 8:02:44 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
Middle of the Road LIAR since October 9th, 2001

78 posted on 10/12/2001 8:07:39 AM PDT by Jerry_M
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To: Jerry_M
LIAR since October 9th, 2001

My guess is it started before that *grin*

79 posted on 10/12/2001 8:11:54 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: philosofy123
You've got to quit spewing your crap and then running away. You did that on the "Does God exist" thread too. You continue this crap and I'll suggest to the powers that be, that you be sent to the bench
80 posted on 10/12/2001 8:25:57 AM PDT by lockeliberty
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To: sola gracia
But the end is not merely paradise regained. The final goal is paradise glorified!

Indeed, sacrifice for liberty is far more important than phyiscal well being in heaven. People who hate the language of the Bible sending people to hell for bad deeds forget that hell is only hell for those obsessed with their well being, and not for those glorifying heaven as it stands.

Contrast this with Islamic Jihad promising 70 virgins. Or Islam's secular submission to the will of Allah. What else is submission to the will - or to violent means - other than a purely secular concept painted with the word Allah? It could be the will of slick Willie if you asked me.

81 posted on 10/12/2001 8:32:07 AM PDT by lavaroise
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To: Middle of the Road; Jerry_M; RnMomof7
Claiming to be the victim now! You must think we are idiots to believe for a single moment all the lies which are now freely flowing from your lips.

I have freely shared the Gospel with you as I am commanded. I have done so in a God honoring way by recognizing that it is God, and God alone, who changes peoples hearts. If I believe that you "claimed" to be a Christian and have fallen away, then you have quite a problem on your hands:

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance, seeing that they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh and put Him to open shame.
Go get your wife's Bible and look it up. I, of course, don't believe for a moment that you have even a casual knowledge of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, despite what you "claim". You have demonstrated yourself a liar and I don't for one moment have to believe any of this "confession". The sooner that you get off of this "Zionist" website, the better. Nevertheless, God may yet yank you away from Satan and claim you as His. If your wife truly is Saved, then she has my prayer:
1 Peter 3 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands, that if any obey not the Word, they also may be won without the word by the conduct of their wives while they behold your chaste manner of living coupled with fear.
Infidel, be gone!
82 posted on 10/12/2001 8:37:46 AM PDT by CCWoody
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To: Middle of the Road
I would ask you to consider two things.

1. How then shall we be saved? How does a sinner reunite with a Just God and survive? Is a Just God really just if he does not punish all sin? Is there any other way for us to live in God's presence, then for someone else to pay the price for our sin? I still don't see the way of salvation that Islam provides.

2. I would also ask you to consider Jesus. He cannot be a part of Islam. If Islam is true, than Jesus is a liar and a blasphemer.

(John 14:6-11) Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
"If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him."
Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us."
Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, "Show us the Father'? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves."

This is just one of many examples where Jesus claims to be, not only, the only true way to God (calling all other "ways" false), but He claims to be God Himself. In John 10:30, Jesus claims, "I and My Father are one." Given Jesus' claims, why doesn't Islam reject Him as a false prophet?

83 posted on 10/12/2001 9:14:30 AM PDT by Right_Wing_Mole_In_Seattle
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To: RnMomof7
Well said. well said
84 posted on 10/12/2001 9:24:09 AM PDT by artios
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To: RnMomof7
Absolutely right on the money! Couldn't have said so better myself, and I doubt anyone else could have improved on it!
85 posted on 10/12/2001 10:40:10 AM PDT by nobdysfool
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To: Middle of the Road
This is a world topic about terrorism not Islam

Actually, you stumbled upon a Intra-Christian discussion regarding the hermanutical approach to biblical prophecy.(i.e. covenantial v. dispensational theology) However, that does not preclude you from the discussion. I would suggest that your responses would bear on the article above and frame your arguments based on any scholarly independent sources. Perhaps you know of some Islamic apologetics that refute the cogent agruements presented in the article?

Here's your challenge.

Present some evidence that the Bible is not consistently pointing to Jesus Christ as the Redeemer for the sin of man. Present any evidence that Jesus Christ is only a prophet and not the Saviour.

Present some evidence that the Koran, as an extra revelational book, is confirmed in the Bible.

Present some evidence against the Trinity. When presenting evidence do not use the Koran as your proof unless you can prove that the Koran is a God-inspired extra revelational book.

One other point. I affirm absolutely the right of any person to practice the faith of their choice as long as they obey the laws of this country. However, the tone of your arguement (and it seems the arguement of most Muslems) seems to suggest that we should accept your faith intellectually because of your belief in the Bible. This is a faulty premise. Most Christians do not accept the faith of Mormons as true faith for the exact reason we do not accept Islam, that is, extra-revelational books.

86 posted on 10/12/2001 11:24:40 AM PDT by lockeliberty
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Comment #87 Removed by Moderator

To: Cernunnos
For some reason, I decided that it would be better in my replies to "Middle of the road" to refer to Jesus(pcfH, or "Peace comes from Him") as Jesus, the Christ, or Jesus, the promised Jewish Messiah, in order to distinguish Him from some other Jesus who may be only a prophet to the proponents of Islam.

Since Christ is His title, and not part of His name (His companions would have identified Him as "Jesus of Nazareth"), I have done no violence to His honor, but have, instead, set Him apart from all other false pretenders.

88 posted on 10/12/2001 1:41:03 PM PDT by Jerry_M
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To: lockeliberty
Good points.
89 posted on 10/12/2001 1:41:40 PM PDT by Jerry_M
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To: troublesome creek
bump for later
90 posted on 10/12/2001 1:43:08 PM PDT by troublesome creek
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Comment #91 Removed by Moderator

To: RnMomof7
92 posted on 10/12/2001 8:19:01 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
93 posted on 10/12/2001 9:00:54 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: dbbeebs
God bless America!
94 posted on 10/12/2001 9:36:12 PM PDT by RickyJ
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To: RickyJ
Why? "What-If" ghod was blessing the other guys?
95 posted on 10/12/2001 9:41:15 PM PDT by dbbeebs
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To: Middle of the Road
What makes you think there is not one true religion? Have you figured that out in your infinite mind?

And let's not forget, what religion is worth anything that doesn't claim a corner on the 'truth'?? If I have two choices A or B in order to get to C (heaven). Well if B says it is the only way to C and A says well you can go to C straight from A or you can also get to C from B. Well I know which choice I'm gonna make! Why risk going to A since it is in agreement that B is a valid choice.

I've only got one life to live, I want to choose the way that leads eternal life.... who doesn't? And believe it or not, I want that for you (and everyone else too... in fact that's why we share our religious beliefs with others... not out of dogma, but out of love and wishing the best for others).

Anyhow, any religion that claims to be just one of many is a lie. It isn't worth the risk (as I mentioned above).

And if we think that since we have a bunch of mutually exclusive choices [i.e. A, B, and others all claim to get me to pont C (heaven)], we'll if I throw up my hands and say that none of them must be true. That too is a falsehood. It just means that I cannot prove that any one of them is true... and I don't want to pick. Mutual exclusion does not indicate falsehood my friend.

I've heard it said before... whatever you serve, now that shows who your god is! So, who's it gonna be?

Jesus proclaimed he was the way and the truth and the life. So he was either a liar (knew it was wrong), a lunatic (thought he was divine and wasn't) or he was/is Lord (son of the almighty). As someone said before, Jesus didn't leave us the option that he was just another good guy (as Islam would like you to believe... as I think they state he was another prophet).

96 posted on 10/12/2001 10:15:26 PM PDT by blue jeans
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To: Cernunnos
Regarding your first challenge:

The Gospel of Matthew Chapter 4:

5 Then the devil took him to the holy city, and set him on the pinnacle of the temple,

6 and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down; for it is written, 'He will give his angels charge of you,' and 'On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.'"

7 Jesus said to him, "Again it is written, 'You shall not tempt the Lord your God.'"

97 posted on 10/13/2001 12:46:54 AM PDT by lockeliberty
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To: Cernunnos
Regarding your 2nd challenge. Because it does not fit the topic posted here I Posted a new Thread that can be found here.
98 posted on 10/13/2001 2:05:46 AM PDT by lockeliberty
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To: lockeliberty
99 posted on 10/13/2001 7:55:20 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
100 posted on 10/13/2001 10:00:41 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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