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Russian People Hear More About John Paul II's Connection to Fatima.
Inside The Vatican ^ | 10/24/01 | Alessandro Schirru

Posted on 10/25/2001 7:56:58 AM PDT by marshmallow

Papal visit to Russia one step closer.

A new book clearly laying out Pope John Paul II's deep connection with Fatima was presented in Moscow last week, causing some observers in Russia to suggest that a papal visit to Russia is now one step nearer.

On October 16, the 23rd anniversary of John Paul II's pontificate, Aura Miguel, the most prominent Portuguese journalist in the Vatican press corps, presented in Moscow her book "The Secret that Leads the Pope."

"Events like this one (the presentation of the book) make the visit of the Pope to Russia even more likely," proclaimed Russian journalist Alexej Bugalov, correspondent for the Tass news agency at the Vatican.

Opening the ceremony, Bugalov spoke with great emotion of the Pope's recent visit to Kazakhstan, recalling fondly one of the banners at the papal Mass which proclaimed: "Holiness, we are waiting for you in Russia."

"Even if these words have not yet been pronounced by the Russian Orthodox Church," Bugalov continued, "they are pronounced by the simple faithful."

The thesis of Miguel's book is simple but intriguing: that the papacy of John Paul II is mysteriously sustained - "led" (as the title says) - by the Secret of Fatima.

Many, particularly in the Catholic world, know the story of the apparitions of Mary in Cova da Iria, Fatima, Portugal which began on May 13, 1917 and continued for six months, always on the 13th of the month (except in August, when the three children were imprisoned by the town's mayor). Scores of books in many languages have been written on Fatima, but few have traced out the connections between the Fatima apparitions and the papacy of Karol Wojtyla.

By presenting her book in Russia, Miguel has revealed a link between the life and work of Pope John Paul II and the Secret of Fatima that, until now, most Russian people had never heard of.

The book begins with the Pope's reawakening in the hospital after the assassination attempt in St. Peter's Square in May, 1981. One of those close to the Holy Father reminded him that the date of the assassination attempt was precisely the anniversary of the first apparition of Our Lady of Fatima.

John Paul II, despite his precarious condition, immediately requested that all of the documents regarding the mystery of Fatima be brought to him.

The author speaks of the "clamorous" experience of the Pope, of his "entering into the mystery" by means of a bullet, of his attempts to follow the instructions given by Mary in her later apparitions of 1925, 1926 and 1929; of his correspondence with Sister Lucia, the only seer still living, who only after the consecration carried out in 1984 confirmed the fulfillment, in her view, of the Virgin's requests.

The author did not know the contents of the third secret when she published the first edition of the book and did not wait for the Holy Father to make it public. The subsequent revelation of the secret, however, only confirmed the thesis of the book, which was then re-issued, with the new information and explanatory notes.

Aura Miguel, during her presentation, made reference to Vittorio Messori's interview with the Holy Father in 1994, in which the renowned Italian journalist wanted to attribute to Pope John Paul II a decisive role in world history of the last 10 years. But the Pope demurred, saying he did nothing but proclaim the Gospel: "Proclaiming the Gospel brings, on it own, the affirmation of human values and of respect for the human person, and his freedom."

When Messori insisted, in a subsequent interview, on the Holy Father's role in the fall of communism, John Paul II, somewhat mysteriously, spoke of the message of Fatima, stressing that three young girls could not have understood or interpreted what they had heard. They were ignorant, did not know geography, history or the social changes that were occuring at that time, he said. "Perhaps this is also why the Pope was called from a far-away country," the Holy Father said, "and perhaps this is also why there had to be the assassination attempt in St. Peter's Square on the very day of May 13, 1981... so that all would become more transparent and understandable, so that the voice of God which speaks in the history of men through "the signs of the times," could be more easily heard and understood."

Aura Miguel added, "If the Pope believes that the assassination attempt was useful, this usefulness benefits all Christians, in the East and the West. It is also, then, thanks to the protective hand of the Virgin - which deflected the bullet - that we have had a pontificate in which the constant desire has been a unified Europe, which, even in its diversity, breathes with two lungs, Rome and Byzantium."

Though it cannot be known in this world whether it is really through this inexplicable connection between Fatima and the papacy of John Paul II that Communism fell and that Russia has opened itself to a more democratic and free regime, with the beginnings of religious liberty, it is clear that, through these events, the formerly perscuted Christians in the East have benefited.

A brief address by Viktor Popkov, the director of the book's Russian publishing house, confirmed this benefit, saying many Russian Christians look with hope to the mystery of Fatima, which speaks of a Russia which must "free herself from her errors."

This young Orthodox, who had first-hand experience of communist concentration camps, conveyed in a few simple words something of what Christians during those dark years experienced, when even carrying a religious book was considered an act against the state, punishable by harsh penalities.

"The 1970s were years of desperation," Popkov said. "All attempts to rebel or to construct something ended badly, so much so that many asked themselves what was the point of doing anything, of living the faith, spreading it, organizing seminars, teaching the catechism..."

The election of a Polish Pope in 1978 was a sign for many: "A slavic Pope, one of us, who knows well what communism is...," Popkov said. "At that moment the light of hope was lit that something big was beginning."

Yuri Karlov closed the evening's presentations with the following address which, for its clearness and incisiveness, we print in its entirety: "Again a thought, without which perhaps my attempt to understand the miracle of Fatima as a message meant for all Christians would be incomplete. We have spoken of the concrete ways in which the prophecies have been fulfilled on a political level; we have spoken of Gorbachev, his contacts, important political documents. But we must also keep in mind something else, which, allow me to repeat again, is that this was a message much more complex, addressed to all of us.

"Not only did Gorbachev visit the Vatican, but also the Metropolitan Yudenarij; not only did communist bureaucrats establish contact with the Vatican, but there was also the great Russian Orthodox Leader, Metropolitan Nikodim, the man who personally converted me to the Orthodox faith. There were complex negotiations with Metropolitan Kirill and finally a thought from Gorbachev himself, which at that time would have been difficult to publicize. Already, then, when speaking of the changes in our (Soviet Union) attitude toward religion, towards Christianity, towards the Church, Gorbachev said: "We stand in front of a triangle: the State, the Russian Orthodox Church, and the Vatican. In this triangle, all must be well-defined. It could be that Fatima will truly be of help in this."

(Alessandro Schirru, an Italian Catholic journalist, has lived in Moscow with his wife and nine children since the early 1990s.)


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1 posted on 10/25/2001 7:56:58 AM PDT by marshmallow
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To: marshmallow
Do not the secrets of Fatima contain a prophecy of the conversion of Russia? Obviously, this is has not occured yet (as one look at Russian society reveals). It is hard to see how it will occur during the pontificate of this pope since he has de-emphaized efforts at conversion to the Catholic Church in favor of ecumenism, such as the "two lungs" rhetoric, which obviously connotes the non-urgency, if not the non-necessity, of conversion.
2 posted on 10/25/2001 8:15:50 AM PDT by Stingray51
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To: marshmallow
Every leader weighs his power by his ability to prophecize correctly. The world is virtualy being haunted by demons. The sole and true prophecy is the one of God Who warned us about His abandoning us for sake of testing and education. Indeed, let us have a taste of Jiang's 1000 year worldwide communist reign, then maybe we will finaly come to understand Who God really is, and how indispensable He is to overthrow such powerful global god like reign against which we can less and less do because of lack of courrage.
3 posted on 10/25/2001 8:18:44 AM PDT by lavaroise
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To: marshmallow
I just love when the Pope declares us the "other" lung of the Church...it was the Catholics who schismed, period. If they want reunification, then the Popes have to swallow their pride and acknowledge their equality to each and every patriarch and not as over lords of the church....then there are those other little things like the made up concept of purgetory and such falicies.
4 posted on 10/25/2001 8:22:31 AM PDT by Stavka2
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To: Stingray51
Thanks for your concern for our conversion, I think we settled those issues in a series of wars stretching from the Catholic betrayal of Kieven Russ when it faced the Mongol hordes. Read this and memorize it: WE ARE NOT AND DO NOT WANT TO BE CATHOLIC

EVER!!!!!

. If you can't accept that, don't cross the border, capish?
5 posted on 10/25/2001 8:24:51 AM PDT by Stavka2
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To: Stavka2
Are you scared? Scared that the Orthodox Church is losing its vitality? If not, then join with us Catholics in a common endeavor--to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
6 posted on 10/25/2001 8:56:52 AM PDT by amordei
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To: marshmallow
John Paul II, somewhat mysteriously, spoke of the message of Fatima, stressing that three young girls could not have understood or interpreted what they had heard.

Especially since one of them was a BOY. (Francisco)

Ex89 (who once spent 5 days in Fatima with her now-deceased Grammy)

7 posted on 10/25/2001 9:22:53 AM PDT by Explorer89
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To: amordei
I hardly think that Holy Orthodoxy is loosing vitality. It has revived instantateously with the coming of freedom to its traditional heartland, is now the fastest growing Christian confession in Africa, and in 1995 was the fastest growing religious confession in percentage terms in the U.S. (almost all by conversion) and is now running neck and neck with Islam for that distinction. Orthodox monastic professions are running at their highest level world-wide at least since the days of the Tsars, if not ever, and we have no clergy shortages.
8 posted on 10/25/2001 9:37:50 AM PDT by The_Reader_David
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To: The_Reader_David
I can't figure out your statistics since they seem to be enveloped in quite a few qualifiers.

Explain to me why the Russians are so against JPII traveling to Moscow. It appears to me that they are afraid of something.

9 posted on 10/25/2001 9:41:41 AM PDT by amordei
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To: Stingray51
Perhaps he de-emphasize conversion because he knows that now and until the Second Coming, unless the Popes of Rome repent of their pride in declaring themselves to be the "Vicars of Christ" (as if He who promised, "Lo I am with you to the end of the age" is absent so as to need a vicar) and humbly submit to the canons and teachings of the Ecumenical Councils of the Holy Orthodox Church as they did before the 11th century, papal overtures to the Orthodox will always be met with the words St. Aleksander Nevsky used in replying to the Crusdaders who sought to reduce Holy Russia to papal rule:

"The traditions of the Holy Fathers of the Seven Councils we scrupulously keep. As for your words we hear them not. We do not want your doctrine."

These words were spoken by the saint in reply to the embassies of the Teutonic Knights before he defeated them, by the grace of God, in the Battle on the Ice.

10 posted on 10/25/2001 9:45:05 AM PDT by The_Reader_David
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To: amordei
The usual Orthodox method for dealing with heretics is to exile them. Why invite one to visit?
11 posted on 10/25/2001 9:46:08 AM PDT by The_Reader_David
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To: The_Reader_David
And there you go. Why that sort of reaction? I sense fear.
12 posted on 10/25/2001 9:58:45 AM PDT by amordei
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To: amordei
Scared? Excuse me but as of last check, we are the fastest growing Christian church in America and we do not have to advertise on billboards for priests...as a matter of fact our Docternal purity and the fact that parish priests are married is bringing quite a few Catholic priests over. And since Eastern Europe (with the discarding of Communism) has once more overwhelmingly become Orthodox and our major missions in Kenya, India and most of SE Asia...hardly. Are the Catholics paranoid of loosing people so that they have to come to Orthodox countries to poach?
13 posted on 10/25/2001 10:17:48 AM PDT by Stavka2
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To: amordei
Less afraid as to more insulted. After the not so nice history and countless betrayals of the last thousand years...please, you should be able to understand this. That and the Pope's kissing of the Koran and acknowledging of Islam and pandering to the NWO crowd in the past decade sure as hell doesn't endear him to us.
14 posted on 10/25/2001 10:20:23 AM PDT by Stavka2
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To: The_Reader_David
As opposed to the more human method of the Catholic church...conversion and beheading or stay a heretic and burn.
15 posted on 10/25/2001 10:21:58 AM PDT by Stavka2
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To: Stavka2
Your outbursts reflect badly on yourself and the faith you espouse.

Whenever there is a piece which extols JP II's role in undermining atheistic communism, the greatest naysayers are invariably those who claim to be Orthodox, rather than others who might be expected to have a greater animus, such as Jews, atheists, Protestants or pagans.

Maybe this is because Orthodoxy's own contribution to the opposition of communism, was at best, unremarkable.

16 posted on 10/25/2001 11:38:37 AM PDT by marshmallow
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To: marshmallow
Yes, thousands of dead priests is sooo unremarkable. You are so right. I am so sorry, we should be kissing your arse, especially when our other great liberators had so much Vatican support, you know those nifty northern guys from Germany: the Nazies.

I have nothing directly against Catholicism, except on the theological level...but when you act hunky doory like nothing is wrong, you insult our intelligence by making the last millinium of transgressions seem indifferent...well they are not. As things stand now, you'll have a better chance of reunifying with the 40 thousand + branches of protestantism then with Orthodoxy.

If you want our forgiveness for your transgressions, as Christians we'll give it to you but if you want us to simply forget them or ignore them while singing your praises then, brother, I can only say: get off the crack...it's killing your brain cells.

When ever Catholics start talking to us Orthodox it almost always comes down to trying to talk to us like some errant children who've wondered away from their parents...the prodical sons...well sorry, we're not. So next time you can't figure out where the hostility is coming from, try for once to see things form our point of view...and we are not your prodical children...you were the ones who Schismed and invented dogma on the fly.

17 posted on 10/25/2001 11:57:50 AM PDT by Stavka2
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To: madrussian; wildandcrazyrussian
BUMP
18 posted on 10/25/2001 11:59:49 AM PDT by Stavka2
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To: The_Reader_David
These words were spoken by the saint in reply to the embassies of the Teutonic Knights before he defeated them, by the grace of God, in the Battle on the Ice.

You mean when Bart Star beat the Cowboys in the closing seconds? ;-)

SD

19 posted on 10/25/2001 12:01:19 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: MarMema; crazykatz
bump
20 posted on 10/25/2001 12:10:22 PM PDT by Stavka2
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To: Stavka2
Yes, thousands of dead priests is sooo unremarkable. You are so right. I am so sorry, we should be kissing your arse, especially when our other great liberators had so much Vatican support, you know those nifty northern guys from Germany: the Nazies.

Records of the Soviet secret service now made public plus the testimony of various individuals, indicate that the one person who most preoccupied the Soviets was JP II. For good reason. The Russian Orthodox hierarchy was neutered by the communists and played a similar role to that of the current Chinese Patriotic Church. At best, a docile lap dog, which said and did nothing without state approval. At worst, KGB agents in cassocks.

The crack about the Nazis is a tired lie.

I have nothing directly against Catholicism, except on the theological level...

That's called contradicting yourself, my friend. Theology is, after all, what the Church is about.

but when you act hunky doory like nothing is wrong, you insult our intelligence by making the last millinium of transgressions seem indifferent...well they are not. As things stand now, you'll have a better chance of reunifying with the 40 thousand + branches of protestantism then with Orthodoxy.

Have you been paying attention to what the Pope has been saying? He has made a habit of apologizing for the sins of the Church towards numerous groups, the Orthodox and Jews among them. He is a truly humble man. What is conspicuously lacking is a reciprocal acknowledgement that wrongs have been committed on both sides, your own rants being a fine example of this lack of reciprocity.

If you want our forgiveness for your transgressions, as Christians we'll give it to you but if you want us to simply forget them or ignore them while singing your praises then, brother, I can only say: get off the crack...it's killing your brain cells.

As I said, the Pope has already asked for forgiveness. It has been slow in coming. Any chance we'll hear a mea culpa from your side?

When ever Catholics start talking to us Orthodox it almost always comes down to trying to talk to us like some errant children who've wondered away from their parents...the prodical sons...well sorry, we're not. So next time you can't figure out where the hostility is coming from, try for once to see things form our point of view...and we are not your prodical children...you were the ones who Schismed and invented dogma on the fly.

You sound very much like the arrogant Catholics you so resent.

21 posted on 10/25/2001 1:39:07 PM PDT by marshmallow
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To: marshmallow
First of all, yes the Church was neutered but you conspicously ignore how it was neutered: by the murder of tens of thousands of priests and monks. Or did they all all of the sudden give up their faiths and become good party members?

As for the links between the Vatican and Facism, they are not a lie. Or did all those Utushies denounce the Catholic Church first? The very church that helped thousands of them escape to S. America. The fact that the Hungarians and Spanish facists and nazies also had backing, often financial, from the Vatican is also an established fact. Just like the one that Hitler was a Catholic. Maybe not one in good standing and rather evil...but it's funny that the Vatican is yet to excommunicate the mass murdering psychopath or for that matter, any of the Nazies. Makes one wonder about all those "tired lies".

As for asking for forgiveness, he has not appologized to the Orthodox...he made some vacumous noises about forgiveness for the sins of the Christians...using the term as generic. And what about his apologies to the Musli and the kissing of the Koran while he hobnobbed with their Mufties? He even raised it to legitamicy during a UN conference. Unlike the West, we will never acknowledge that heresy/devil inspired faith for anything but what it really is, no matter the PC pressure.

22 posted on 10/25/2001 2:04:28 PM PDT by Stavka2
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To: marshmallow

23 posted on 10/25/2001 2:11:44 PM PDT by B-Chan
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To: *Catholic_list
Bump
24 posted on 10/25/2001 2:12:02 PM PDT by Straight Vermonter
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To: Straight Vermonter
Why can't you Roman Catholics get through your heads....the Orthodox Christians and MOST Protestants just DO NOT want to be part of your Church...and JUST LET IT GO????

Just let it go. PLEASE!

Nevertheless, the Orthodox are happy with their Church and you all are happy with yours...AS CHRISTIANS....JUST let the differences be!!! I believe it would be nice if you all would NOT fight.

I read a book which stated that almost 1 million Orthodox Priests, Nuns, Monks and other Church officials were put to death by the Communists in the USSR because of their religion....THAT IS WHAT I CALL LAYING DOWN YOUR LIFE FOR CHRIST!! WE SHOULD ALL BE CELEBRATING THEIR GIVING OF THEIR LIVES FOR CHRIST!!

In their memories, may I suggest that we all, AS CHRISTIANS FIRST, denominations second, NOT FIGHT OVER THESE ISSUES.

What good does it do to fight?? Just gives the muslims and other evil rascals a better chance of taking us over!!

25 posted on 10/25/2001 5:42:38 PM PDT by crazykatz
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To: B-Chan
BIG BUMP BUDDY!!
26 posted on 10/25/2001 5:43:19 PM PDT by crazykatz
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To: marshmallow
Though it cannot be known in this world whether it is really through this inexplicable connection between Fatima and the papacy of John Paul II that Communism fell and that Russia has opened itself to a more democratic and free regime, with the beginnings of religious liberty, it is clear that, through these events, the formerly perscuted Christians in the East have benefited.

The Holy Alliance - "Faced with a military crackdown in Poland, Ronald Reagan and John Paul II secretly joined forces to keep the Solidarity union alive. They hoped not only to pressure Warsaw but to free all of Eastern Europe."

27 posted on 10/25/2001 6:01:23 PM PDT by Mannaggia l'America
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To: marshmallow
You dishonor the memory of the Holy Martyrs of the Bolshevik Yoke and the Royal Passion Bearers of Russia. More pious Orthodox Christians died as martyrs in the last century than in all the prior centuries of the Church combined. 40,000 priest, monks and nuns were killed, and millions of laymen martyred. No, it's not the kind of "opposition to communism" one usually thinks of, but it is the kind of opposition to be expected from those who are not of this world, but merely in it.

Holy Martyrs of Russia pray for us!

Holy Tsar Nicholas, Royal Passion Bearer, pray for us!


28 posted on 10/25/2001 11:06:15 PM PDT by The_Reader_David
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To: amordei
Fear? Perhaps. It is reasonable and righteous to fear for the souls of others when they have been downtodden and the leader of a fabulously wealthy heresy comes to call with sweet wooing offers.

The Holy Fathers (and I do not mean your Popes) teach that heresy is separation from God. Certainly we should fear that.

You evidently forget that we Orthodox see very strong doctrinal and practical differences between the Holy Orthodox Church and your confession. I will not catalogue your errors, but we find your insistence that we have the same doctrine as you, at best a result of a bizarre Thomistic obtuseness on your part, and at worst a propaganda ploy.

29 posted on 10/25/2001 11:14:06 PM PDT by The_Reader_David
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To: crazykatz
You read all of that into me saying, "Bump"?
30 posted on 10/26/2001 2:09:03 AM PDT by Straight Vermonter
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To: Straight Vermonter
The message that I posted was addressed to your "calling" all FR Catholics.....I also bumped 'bchan' because I felt that his message was an excellent one for all who want freedom of religion....as opposed to a religion of VIOLENCE and PAIN, islam, the submit yourself to DEGRADATION religion!!
31 posted on 10/26/2001 4:47:02 AM PDT by crazykatz
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To: Stavka2
First of all, yes the Church was neutered but you conspicously ignore how it was neutered: by the murder of tens of thousands of priests and monks. Or did they all all of the sudden give up their faiths and become good party members?

The Orthodox faith has indeed had many martyrs in the fight against communism. So has the Catholic Church. No one is claiming otherwise. However, you know that the Catholic Church played a vital role in the ridding of Eastern Europe of communist oppression and won't admit it. My point about the Russian Orthodox hierarchy and its cosy relationship with the communists was intended to point out to you that the Orthodox Church also has skeletons in its own closet. You bitterly attack a man (JP II) who has fought all his life against godless atheism, while steadfastly ignoring Orthodox failings.

As for the links between the Vatican and Facism, they are not a lie.

They are a damnable lie. Period. This site (and others)has numerous articles about the hatred the Nazis had for Pius XII and his efforts to help the Jews. You're not interested. But then I thought that you had nothing against Catholics? You said in your previous rant that your only objection was "theological". Another contradiction.

Or did all those Utushies denounce the Catholic Church first? The very church that helped thousands of them escape to S. America.

I have little historical knowledge of what happened in Croatia/Serbia, so can't respond, other than to say that I know for a fact that many of the accusations against the holy Cardinal Stepinac were instigated by the Marxists.

The fact that the Hungarians and Spanish facists and nazies also had backing, often financial, from the Vatican is also an established fact.

Established by who? You? This is pure garbage. Do you know anything of the Spanish Civil War? The "republican" fighters were nothing more than Marxists who were backed by Stalin and leftists worldwide. They slaughtered thousands of Catholic clergy and faithful. The Pope recently beatified a large number of them. The Catholic Church was persecuted during this time.

Just like the one that Hitler was a Catholic. Maybe not one in good standing and rather evil...but it's funny that the Vatican is yet to excommunicate the mass murdering psychopath or for that matter, any of the Nazies. Makes one wonder about all those "tired lies".

It's at this point that I start to think I'm wasting bandwidth on an idiot. Hitler excommunicated himself. He ceased to practise (if he ever did) the Catholic faith. He cast himself out. Excommunication is reserved for those who attempt to remain in the bosom of the Church while flouting her rules. The Catholic Church does not officialy excommunicate every murderer who was baptized as a Catholic. Does yours?

As for asking for forgiveness, he has not appologized to the Orthodox...he made some vacumous noises about forgiveness for the sins of the Christians...using the term as generic.

The Pope has continually and steadfastly reached out to the Orthodox Church. His attempts have often been rebuffed such as the shameful behavior of the Greek Orthodox hierarchy on his recent visit to Greece.

And what about his apologies to the Musli and the kissing of the Koran while he hobnobbed with their Mufties? He even raised it to legitamicy during a UN conference. Unlike the West, we will never acknowledge that heresy/devil inspired faith for anything but what it really is, no matter the PC pressure.

The Pope's kissing of the Koran was intended as a gesture of respect. In the same way that he always kisses the ground when he visits another country. It is intended as a gesture of peace to all "men of goodwill", as he puts it, of which there assuredly are in all of these places and faiths. It does not imply approval of its contents.

32 posted on 10/26/2001 6:02:04 AM PDT by marshmallow
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To: marshmallow
I have little historical knowledge of what happened in Croatia/Serbia, so can't respond, other than to say that I know for a fact that many of the accusations against the holy Cardinal Stepinac were instigated by the Marxists.

Right there you have already proved how little you know of your own knowledge of WW2...Croatia, where Catholic bishops ran concentration camps. Here's a link for you to educate yourself on. You can easily do a search on google and get quite a few nice archieval photoes...like the one of the Bishop of Croatia sitting at his desk with a jar full of eye balls that he personally gouged out...really touching of a man of Christ.

Established by who? You? This is pure garbage. Do you know anything of the Spanish Civil War? The "republican" fighters were nothing more than Marxists who were backed by Stalin and leftists worldwide. They slaughtered thousands of Catholic clergy and faithful. The Pope recently beatified a large number of them. The Catholic Church was persecuted during this time.

Yes and Franco, the man backed by Hitler and Mussalini and anyone else who believed in their view...or were you also conspicously not aware of that fact? Of whole german brigades ("mercenaries") with Stuka dive bombers and Mark II tanks fighting along side the Spanish facists.

Here, educate yourself on Hitler and your Pope Pious XII, it'll be good for you. The Holocaust and the Catholic Church

Role of the Catholic Church in Yugoslavia's Holocust

And here marshmallow brain...lets see who's the idiot, some quotes from Hitler about his religious views: waiting for your enlightenment.

You see, you can apologize and minse words all you like, but the fact of the matter, the Catholic Church, which had no troubles excommunicating tens of thousands of religous men who questioned it's power, has never taken up the issue of excommunicating Hitler or any of the Nazies....please, tell me again how he excommunicated himself...which only works when the Bull is dropped, like it was dropped on two thirds of Christiandom at the time of the Schism.

Just love this little tid bit of information from that last article:Three years later he informed General Gerhart Engel: "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." He never left the church, and the church never left him. Great literature was banned by his church, but his miserable Mien Kampf never appeared on the Index of Forbidden Books.

Or this quote, which is quite true and can even be seen in German made movies about the war, like Stalingrad..rent it some time, you might get enlightened. Hitler's Germany amalgamated state with church. Soldiers of the vermacht wore belt buckles inscribed with the following: "Gott mit uns" (God is with us). His troops were often sprinkled with holy water by the priests. It was a real Christian country whose citizens were indoctrinated by both state and church to blindly follow all authority figures, political and ecclesiastical

Church laundering of Nazi monies at the end of the war

Hitler Aims Blow at "Godless" Movement A reprint from a new article from 1933.

Hope you enjoy my contribution to your education...remember..marshmallows melt to close to the fire.

33 posted on 10/26/2001 9:32:04 AM PDT by Stavka2
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To: The_Reader_David
God Bless Czar Nicholas and his entire family, murdered by atheistic Communist butchers.

I agree with earlier posters, we are all Christians and our real enemy is the specter of militant Islam. This fruitless bickering over our differences led to the fall of Constantinople and the desecration of Hagia Sophia by the Muslim oppressor.

We should agree we disgree on theology (our disagreements are really MINOR ones in comparison to what we have in common), stop quarreling and bickering among ourselves, and face together our common enemy - the harbringer of a new Dark Age - the Islamic plague.

34 posted on 10/26/2001 9:51:52 AM PDT by ZULU
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To: Stavka2
Your total inability to engage in dialogue combined with your infantile abuse mark you out as someone who should not be taken seriously.

All I see in your posts is hatred.

35 posted on 10/26/2001 10:16:37 AM PDT by marshmallow
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To: marshmallow
The sad part is how absolutely incapable you are of seeing the same thing in yourself. Obviously you'd never stand up to the "Judge not, least you be judged yourself and found wanting..." clause of the Bible. Your absolute inability to admit to any wrong doing by the catholic church, your closed mindedness and out right dismissal of all the martyerdom and sacrifice of the Orthodox, your inability to even question the dogmatic decisions and rulings and "facts" as presented by the church officials makes you out to be no better then what you accuse me of. One major difference, I show proof (of course since it disputes your views, it's just made up), while you out right dismiss it as garbage and lies and show none in return...who's the closed minded fool? But I'm sure you'll miss the point of that.
36 posted on 10/26/2001 10:29:32 AM PDT by Stavka2
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To: ZULU
I agree with you. What I can't agree with is fools like Marshmellow who totally dismiss any wrong doing on their own churchs parts while minimalizing us and trying to talk down to all us "misguided" children who just need to be show the "proper" way and brought back to the fold of the incorruptable and infallable Pope. Sorry, I can work and live with Catholics, I will fight along side them, I will NEVER subjugate myself to them or their Pope and unfortunetly thanks to closed minded apologists like MarshedYellow, he, through is arrogance, creates divides and hostility and can't seem to understand why we don't want to be "the other lung" or any such nonsense.
37 posted on 10/26/2001 10:32:44 AM PDT by Stavka2
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To: Stavka2
Y'all should take it easy. All we want to do is establish a dialogue. Your pit bull tactics will not win and are not consonant with the message of Christ. Peace be with you.
38 posted on 10/26/2001 12:38:00 PM PDT by amordei
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To: marshmallow
"All I see In your posts is hatred"

Quite frankly I see it as educational for I really don't know much about any religion. Reading all sides some people become enlightened

39 posted on 10/26/2001 1:13:11 PM PDT by horsewhispersc
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To: crazykatz
Yo, you should relax. You're not the center of we Catholics' world. If Protestants and Orthodox want to convert, then let them, they do it of free will. Yeesh.
40 posted on 10/26/2001 6:30:24 PM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: Stavka2
You need to get over yourself. Catholics don't sit around talking about how we can get the Orthodox.
41 posted on 10/26/2001 6:46:53 PM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: Stavka2
You are flirting boldly with bigotry. Anyone who cannot discourse without contempt and name-calling is not interested in honest discussion; your talk is hampered by a sense that your case is weak: hence the namecalling.
42 posted on 10/26/2001 7:11:19 PM PDT by ventana
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To: Conservative til I die
To quote the good 'Zulu'....

"We should agree we disgree on theology (our disagreements are really MINOR ones in comparison to what we have in common), stop quarreling and bickering among ourselves, and face together our common enemy - the harbringer of a new Dark Age - the Islamic plague."

And one more thing...I never stated that I was the center of the Catholics world, I was trying to establish some kind of end to the "rancour of this discussion".

As usuallly is the case, with some of you Roman Catholics....one of you JUST HAS to get some kind of "dirty dig" in AT ANY PERSON who does NOT belong to your Church. That person being ME!! I am highly offended by your SNIDE remarks.

I believe that I am seeing WHY the Orthodox Christians find so many of you, Roman Catholics REPUNGANT AND PUSHY....this does not include MY OWN, RC relatives who absolutely ADORE the Orthodox Church, the Lutheran Church and the Mennonites, the Salvation Army.... and their own Church, of course....THANK GOD!!

I think you need NEVER reply to me again...I dislike you very much.

43 posted on 10/26/2001 8:06:21 PM PDT by crazykatz
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To: Stavka2; The_Reader_David
I've been musing over what little I know about the orthodox church. Both the orthodox and the catholic seem to have, let me word this carefully, been in religious control of countries where anti semitism was rampant.

How do the orthodox relate to the Jews today?

I'm not trying to start an argument, just trying to settle quesitons in my own mind.

It is a shame that the catholic church can't backpeddle and annul doctrine developed post-1000 or so. I know a lot of catholics would have a fit and stomp and scream but I wouldn't have a particular problem with it. It will never happen. Too neat and tidy and purifying.

44 posted on 10/26/2001 8:21:18 PM PDT by Aliska
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To: Stavka2
That and the Pope's kissing of the Koran

Would not that one action alone qualify him as a false prophet? He has done so much good on so many levels but the christian faith cannot be compromised. It is something I'm trying to resolve in my own mind. I have so much respect for him about much he has done otherwise.

45 posted on 10/26/2001 8:25:59 PM PDT by Aliska
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To: marshmallow
I would be very interested to know why hasn't the pope visited Ireland and addressed the problems there between " his people," Catholics " and the Protestants, they sure need it there. Yet he is traveling to Muslim contries, and Russia, only to mention a few.

I would " think" it would be more necessary to a land that is suffering over wars between Catholics and Protestants. I'm asking this question very seriously, to my knowledge he has never gone there, has he ?

46 posted on 10/26/2001 8:35:53 PM PDT by DreamWeaver
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To: The_Reader_David
the Popes of Rome repent of their pride in declaring themselves to be the "Vicars of Christ"

All bishops are vicars of Christ, because they follow in the footsteps of the Apostles, of whom Our Lord said, "Who hears you, hears me."

That includes your bishops, too.

47 posted on 10/26/2001 8:36:55 PM PDT by Campion
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To: Stavka2
Yes, thousands of dead priests is sooo unremarkable.

Many Orthodox priests were martyred, true. May they pray for all of us.

On the other hand, some "Orthodox" bishops and patriarchs drew their salary from the KGB.

Also on the other hand, the Catholic Church within the ex-USSR was virtually exterminated. We lost thousands of priests just in Spain, just due to the communist revolution supported there by Stalin.

As an aside, concerning Fatima. The Orthodox get very excited because they assume "Russia will be converted" means "Russia will become Catholic". However, the visionary Sr. Lucia indicates that "the conversion of Russia" may have already taken place. It seems that "the conversion of Russia" really meant her "conversion" (i.e., "turning away") from communism, rather than her "conversion to Catholicism" or even her "re-conversion to Orthodoxy".

48 posted on 10/26/2001 8:46:16 PM PDT by Campion
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To: Stavka2
the Catholic Church, which had no troubles excommunicating tens of thousands of religous men who questioned it's power, has never taken up the issue of excommunicating Hitler or any of the Nazies....please, tell me again how he excommunicated himself...which only works when the Bull is dropped, like it was dropped on two thirds of Christiandom at the time of the Schism.

Wow, the last time I heard this little number it was coming from the Jehovah's Witnesses. Funny company you put yourself in, there, Stavka2.

Let's see ... Hitler excommunicated himself by committing acts of violence against priests and religious, beginning not later than 1934. He formally defected from the Catholic Church on several occasions, not least when he declared in his "Table Talk" that he was "a pure heathen" and denied that he was a Christian at all. (What he said in his public speeches is really rather worthless ... he was a liar, you recall.) The fact that he had formally defected makes his excommunication meaningless under any circumstances; we can't "excommunicate" pagans ... can you?

And -- I'm amazed that you don't know this -- the Bull of Excommunication of 1054 excommunicated only the Patriarch of Constantinople, not "two thirds of Christendom" ... but in reality, it excommunicated nobody at all, because the Pope under whose authority it was issued was dead by that time, and had no authority to excommunicate anyone.

As far as German belt buckles saying "Gott mit uns," they'd carried that legend long before the Nazis arrived. And Germany was predominantly Lutheran, not Catholic, and Hitler drew the majority of his votes in Germany's last free election from the Lutheran districts (north and east), not the Catholic ones (south and west).

And I'm not even going to bother refuting the lies about Pope Pius XII ... Rabbi David Dalin does it much better than I can. You can find his article with the search engine.

Somebody's taught you a lot of nonsense, I'm sorry to say.

49 posted on 10/26/2001 8:59:21 PM PDT by Campion
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To: DreamWeaver
I would be very interested to know why hasn't the pope visited Ireland and addressed the problems there between " his people," Catholics " and the Protestants, they sure need it there.

Two reasons: (1) The IRA is a bunch of Marxists and anarchists who don't take their orders from the Pope, so it wouldn't do any good; and (2) the Protestants would have a cow, so it would do a great deal of harm.

50 posted on 10/26/2001 9:02:16 PM PDT by Campion
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