Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Jew who loses security clearance blames anti-Semitism in the military
JTA Online ^ | Oct. 29, 2001 | Sharon Samber

Posted on 10/30/2001 10:44:50 AM PST by AshleyMontagu

Jew who loses security clearance
blames anti-Semitism in the military
By Sharon Samber


WASHINGTON, Oct. 29 (JTA) — A Jewish reserve officer says the U.S. Army stripped him of his security clearance and forced him to give up command of an intelligence unit because of his ties to Israel.

Maj. Shawn Pine, commander of the 300th Military Intelligence Company of Austin, Texas, holds dual U.S.-Israeli citizenship and received his top security clearance in 1990 — until it was revoked this summer.

While Pine says the reasons are rooted in anti-Semitism, the army says it's just implementing a simple rules change.

Pine's story, which first appeared in the Jerusalem Post, brings up concerns of heightened sensitivity in the U.S. armed forces to officers with Israel connections.

Pine was born in the United States and immigrated to Israel with his family in the late 1970s. Like other Israeli citizens, he entered the Israel Defense Force, serving in the elite Golani Brigade.

After his discharge, Pine returned to the United States to attend Georgetown University. He later chose a military career and served nine years as an officer in the U.S. Army.

In 1995, Pine returned to Israel to study international relations at the Hebrew University, simultaneously doing his occasional IDF reserve duty.

Pine says he discussed his Israel connection with the U.S. Army when his security clearance came up for a routine update. He even agreed to the unusual step of taking a polygraph test, Pine says, saying it seemed fair because he had "a lot of interaction with Israel."

But now Pine says his career is ruined, as it's unlikely that private companies that get government contracts for security-related work would hire him without a security clearance.

Pine claims there is a "blatant" connection between his case and that of Lt. Col. Jeremiah Mattysse, a senior intelligence officer who converted to Judaism and went AWOL in Israel last year. There was speculation that Mattysse had passed on military intelligence to the Jewish state, but he eventually was cleared.

Pine was contacted about his security clearance update only a month after the Mattysse incident.

"They're looking for Jewish officers," he said.

The Army Reserves says it is implementing new rules that prevent anyone who holds dual citizenship from having top security clearance.

Pine is "not the only one caught up in the rules change," said Joe Hanley, a spokesman for the U.S. Army Reserve Command.

"This is not a punitive action," agreed Steve Stromvall, another spokesman.

A research associate at the Ariel Center for Policy Research in Israel, Pine has published many articles on military and strategic affairs in the Middle East. His writings have appeared in Israel Affairs, The International Journal of Intelligence and Counterintelligence and the Jerusalem Post.

The Anti-Defamation League's Houston office said it had been contacted by Pine and is investigating the case.

Jewish sensitivity to accusations of dual loyalty has increased since the infamous case of Jonathan Pollard.

A former analyst for U.S. Navy intelligence, Pollard was convicted of espionage in 1985 for passing secret U.S. military information to Israel, and was sentenced to life in prison.

Anti-Israel feelings may be "endemic" in the U.S. Army's intelligence community, Pine believes.

"When they see a Jew, they see a Jonathan Pollard," he said.

There is no doubt that certain quarters of the U.S. intelligence community harbor an underlying suspicion of Jews with connections to Israel, attorney Neal Sher said.

Sher represented former intelligence officer Adam Ciralsky, who charged that the CIA placed him on leave in 1997 because of his ties with Israel. Ciralsky sued the CIA last year, claiming that rampant anti-Semitism within the agency destroyed his career.

Sher said he does not know the details of Pine's case, but said it is reasonable that anti-Semitism and anti-Israel animus could have played a role.

"The organized Jewish community should take this very seriously," he said.



TOPICS: Front Page News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS:
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100101-109 next last
To: wimpycat
"So, to reiterate my opinion, no one with dual citizenship should ever get a security clearance."

Isn't this rather basic? I can tell that many people have come to this post with long-standing agendas. I don't think I have ever posted on Israel-related topics. I am generally pro-Israel, but only within the context of supporting America's enlightened self-interest. I can't understand, however, why this fellow's case is even an issue. How can somebody with dual citizenship expect to get a top U.S. security clearance? It is simply mind-boggling.

51 posted on 10/30/2001 7:18:05 PM PST by SpencerRoane
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: Sabramerican
No one suspects your loyalty to the US, Sabra. Since you have none.
52 posted on 10/30/2001 7:37:50 PM PST by bribriagain
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: Sabramerican
Guess what, Ashley was there, at #99, so he must have had a very good reason for posting this again.

And what would that reason be, IsraeliAmerican? And don't distort the truth so much. That is a completely different article than the one I posted. You know that, but chose to decieve. Why?

53 posted on 10/30/2001 8:54:58 PM PST by AshleyMontagu
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: JMJ333; Sabramerican
This post is nothing more than an opportunity for the people who hate Jews to crawl out of the woodwork. Never a missed opportunity...

Gee, so sensitive. This news account is from a Jewish news organization guys. Complain to them about being anti-Semitic.

54 posted on 10/30/2001 8:57:27 PM PST by AshleyMontagu
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: Sabramerican
Tell that to Nachum. He's the person who tossed in the Rosenbergs. If he wants to bait other posters, I think someone should oblige him, don't you? There may be people on this board who have never heard of the Rosenbergs.
55 posted on 10/31/2001 2:39:31 AM PST by Patria One
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: AshleyMontagu
Gee, as if you have no agenda. You wouldn't have bothered posting the article if the guy had been a dual citizen of Mexico.
56 posted on 10/31/2001 4:14:06 AM PST by JMJ333
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 54 | View Replies]

To: Sabramerican
By the way, as to your opinion: you are also wrong. I am a dual national. Do you think if in order to serve the US I was forced to renounce my Israeli citizenship, I would be any less pro-Israel.

You just made my point for me. I don't have a problem with people with dual citizenship under normal circumstances, only when it comes to U.S. security. The U.S. is first and last for me. Let me put this hypothetical case to you: Let's pretend that you're just a regular non-military person and you found, or somehow accidentally stumbled upon, a briefcase full of documents marked "US GOVERNMENT TOP SECRET", and let's say you look at one or two of the documents, and in them, you find information that would be vital to Israeli security (such as, the U.S. has knowledge that a high-level Israeli military official is selling secrets to the Palestinians--something that would be really mind-boggling, but let's pretend just for the sake of argument). A US government official tracks down the briefcase and retrieves it from you and you are told not to reveal to anyone anything you may have seen in the briefcase, as it is top secret information belonging to the U.S. government.

So, what do you do? The information belongs to the U.S., and you have no idea what they are going to do with it. As a loyal American, it would be your duty not to reveal U.S. top secret information to any country. I have no problem with it, since I have allegiance to no other country but the U.S. I would keep my mouth shut. You, on the other hand, would be in a quandary. So, it would be interesting to know how you solved that quandary.

57 posted on 10/31/2001 4:17:57 AM PST by wimpycat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: JMJ333
"Dual citizens" of Mexico, Israel, or anywhere else should NOT have access to classified material, PERIOD!
58 posted on 10/31/2001 4:30:44 AM PST by jsraggmann
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 56 | View Replies]

To: Sabramerican
The honestly and loyalty of a dual citizen has nothing to do with their citizenship, but with the person- as it would be with a person with sole citizenship.

When it comes to U.S. security and dealing with top secret information, I'm afraid I must disagree with you. While I agree with you in one respect, not having dual citizenship is no guarantee of loyalty (Pollard, Hansen), people with dual citizenship, by the very fact that they have not renounced their previous citizenship or, if they are native born Americans, have accepted the citizenship of a second country, have publicly stated their loyalty to a second country. The very fact of possessing citizenship is a statement, or action, of loyalty (or it should be). It doesn't necessarily mean that a dual citizen would be disloyal to the U.S., but I for one want to minimize all possibilities or opportunities of disloyalty in the realm of U.S. security. If someone hasn't renounced all non-U.S. allegiance by the time they get to the position in the military or intelligence community where they would ordinarily qualify for a security clearance, that says something about that person. It says, "I am under obligation to two countries."

By the way, do you question the loyalties of Israeli Arabs? Do Israeli Arabs get top security clearances in the Israeli military? Are they even allowed to be in the Israeli military? (I'm not being smart-aleck--I don't know how it works over there.)

59 posted on 10/31/2001 4:55:15 AM PST by wimpycat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: jsraggmann
I don't have a problem with your argument. What I do have a problem with is someone who is always posting things to highlight every fault of every Jew on earth.
60 posted on 10/31/2001 5:49:54 AM PST by JMJ333
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 58 | View Replies]

To: AshleyMontagu
Really Ashley? Can you point out my distortion?

Read what I wrote Ashley. It always helps.

I wrote that this (the story of this officer) was discussed previously and that you were part of that discussion.

Not true?

I was perplexed at what would compel you to post a new thread. I still wonder (wink, wink).

61 posted on 10/31/2001 6:04:49 AM PST by Sabramerican
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 53 | View Replies]

To: wimpycat
Your scenario would not make a bad TV show.

Nevertheless, as you stated the case, it buttresses my view. Any such dilemma would not change because a person is a dual national.

Use the same story but the one finding the information is a Boston born Irish Catholic supporter of the Republican cause and the information is that the British are about to assassinate the entire IRA leadership.

62 posted on 10/31/2001 6:11:46 AM PST by Sabramerican
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 57 | View Replies]

To: wimpycat
I'm a dual citizen because of where I was born.

By your doubts, since I purposely attained US citizenship, it is Israel that should question my loyalty.

You are making too much of dual citizenship. In reality its nothing more then paperwork. Loyalty is in the heart and actions depend on honor. For both dual and sole citizens.

And again to prove my point. Israeli Arabs are judged individually. There are non-Jews in very sensitive positions in Israel.

63 posted on 10/31/2001 6:18:52 AM PST by Sabramerican
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 59 | View Replies]

To: Patria One
There may be people on this board who have never heard of the Rosenbergs

Because all their time is spent playing the ever popular game: "Who's Astonished Now".

64 posted on 10/31/2001 6:32:49 AM PST by Sabramerican
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 55 | View Replies]

To: Sabramerican
By your doubts, since I purposely attained US citizenship, it is Israel that should question my loyalty.

I agree.

You are making too much of dual citizenship. In reality its nothing more then paperwork. Loyalty is in the heart and actions depend on honor. For both dual and sole citizens.

So citizenship is just a piece of paper to you? Is it like a sweater that you can put on and take off, it's the person inside that counts? No. It's more than just a piece of paper. It's more akin to a marriage than a state driver's license, for crying out loud. Your cavalier attitude towards the mere "paperwork" that enables you to participate fully in the U.S. speaks volumes and explains your unwillingness to be as strict as possible with who is entrusted with military secrets. That "paperwork" puts you under obligation. So you took the oath of citizenship under false pretenses? Is the oath, any oath, "just words" to you?

The U.S. is first and last to me. All other countries are secondary. If it were in the best interests of the U.S. to destroy my ancestral homeland (England, in my case) tomorrow, I would support it fully. Anybody who can't say the same thing and mean it has no business having a security clearance, as far as I'm concerned. Anybody with a dual citizenship would be less likely to feel the same way. If they did, they would be traitors to their other country, and nobody should trust a traitor, even if that traitor benefits the U.S.

65 posted on 10/31/2001 7:01:24 AM PST by wimpycat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 63 | View Replies]

To: Sabramerican
Nevertheless, as you stated the case, it buttresses my view. Any such dilemma would not change because a person is a dual national.

Well, you're a dual national and you dodged the question. What would you do if you were faced with that scenario?

Use the same story but the one finding the information is a Boston born Irish Catholic supporter of the Republican cause and the information is that the British are about to assassinate the entire IRA leadership.

OK, I'll take you up on that. I'm a little unclear on your example, but I'll assume you mean that the Boston-born Irish-Catholic supporter is an American citizen still living in Boston. That's very simple, and no different than what I told you earlier. It is your duty as an American citizen not to reveal secrets to any other country (or to reveal secrets to anybody knowing that the information will end up in the hands of another country). I hope you didn't think my answer would be any different for Israel than it would for any other country. My husband is a naturalized American citizen from Chile, and he used to be in the U.S. Navy before he became an American citizen. He loves Chile, it's very close to his heart. His dad and many family members are still there. But, if he came across information that was vital to Chilean security, but the information was top secret U.S. government info and he was ordered to keep it to himself, he knows that it is his duty as an American not to reveal it. He took the citizenship oath very seriously. He meant every word he said.

66 posted on 10/31/2001 7:15:29 AM PST by wimpycat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 62 | View Replies]

To: Sabramerican
I was perplexed at what would compel you to post a new thread.

You seem quite interested in this post. You have posted a large number of the replies on the thread. Yet you complain that I posted it. Why does this article bother you so much? But we know why, don't we, dual citizen?

67 posted on 10/31/2001 7:21:02 AM PST by AshleyMontagu
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 61 | View Replies]

To: wimpycat
I wonder how sabra would look upon a service member who held dual citizenships for the US and Syria? Or a dual Israel/Syria citizen having access to top secret Israeli documents?
68 posted on 10/31/2001 7:25:11 AM PST by AshleyMontagu
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 65 | View Replies]

To: wimpycat
I were discussing holding dual citizenship as a concept. And loyalty as a concept. Citizenship is not like marriage. Most people don't choose it, it's happenstance. If fact, as they say of the love for adopted children, those of us who purposely choose the US manifest a greater love.

But, and this again proves my point- and I will end here- you write that citizenship qualifies you for such rights as fully participating (lets read that as voting) in a country. That's not exactly true. I don't vote in Israel. And Israelis born in the US don't vote here. There reason is that citizenship is not sufficient, you also need to be a resident.

I am a citizen, live, work, vote and pay taxes in the United States. My Israeli citizenship is manifested by my holding an Israel passport without which I could never travel to Israel as they would not let me out of the country on my American passport alone. At this time, for me, my Israeli citizenship is an issue of paperwork. My affection for Israel would be identical was I a citizen or not.

69 posted on 10/31/2001 7:25:58 AM PST by Sabramerican
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 65 | View Replies]

To: Sabramerican
Sabra, any respect I had for you is gone after this thread. Here you admit you hold dual citizenships and refer to your US citizenship as just a piece of paper having no meaning. Do you blow your nose with it? What is the US Constitution to you? Bird cage liner?
70 posted on 10/31/2001 7:27:28 AM PST by AshleyMontagu
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 61 | View Replies]

To: AshleyMontagu
You may have noticed that the original issue as turned into a different discussion and I am participating because I am being questioned.

Did you ask your question as a ploy to have me continue?

71 posted on 10/31/2001 7:29:56 AM PST by Sabramerican
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 67 | View Replies]

To: AshleyMontagu
Gosh Ashley you should have waited for #69.

Do I have your respect again? LOL

72 posted on 10/31/2001 7:32:10 AM PST by Sabramerican
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 70 | View Replies]

To: Sabramerican
Too late Sab. Your words are still there no matter how you might use your lawyerly skills to weasel out of them. Some day FR might have a self-edit after posting ability. Not yet though so you're stuck.
73 posted on 10/31/2001 7:35:00 AM PST by AshleyMontagu
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 72 | View Replies]

To: Sabramerican
My Israeli citizenship is manifested by my holding an Israel passport without which I could never travel to Israel as they would not let me out of the country on my American passport alone.

What does this mean? Only Israeli citizens are allowed to leave Israel when visiting? Strange policy.

74 posted on 10/31/2001 7:37:22 AM PST by AshleyMontagu
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 69 | View Replies]

To: AshleyMontagu
So you're saying you don't respect me after #69?
75 posted on 10/31/2001 7:37:29 AM PST by Sabramerican
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 73 | View Replies]

To: Sabramerican
So you're saying you don't respect me after #69?

Good one.

76 posted on 10/31/2001 7:41:37 AM PST by AshleyMontagu
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 75 | View Replies]

To: AshleyMontagu
Ashley. If you are going to prove that you are not very bright, I don't want your respect.

Anyone who has ever had Israeli citizenship (by birth, etc) must enter- but most particularly-leave Israel using an Israeli passport.

77 posted on 10/31/2001 7:42:44 AM PST by Sabramerican
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 74 | View Replies]

To: Sabramerican
You are in full obfuscation mode. This does not explain you holding dual citizenship. Nor does it explain your nonchalant attitude toward these citizenships. Cosmopolitan man are we?
78 posted on 10/31/2001 7:46:52 AM PST by AshleyMontagu
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 77 | View Replies]

To: Sabramerican
My Israeli citizenship is manifested by my holding an Israel passport without which I could never travel to Israel as they would not let me out of the country on my American passport alone.

How does that work? Only Israeli citizens can visit Israel?

79 posted on 10/31/2001 7:47:43 AM PST by Rodney King
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 75 | View Replies]

To: Sabramerican
Sorry, you answered right before I posted.
80 posted on 10/31/2001 7:48:12 AM PST by Rodney King
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 77 | View Replies]

To: Rodney King
How does that work? Only Israeli citizens can visit Israel?

Keep in mind that sabra is a lawyer. That explains a lot of his obfuscations and attacks. He is our resident Alan Dershowitz.

81 posted on 10/31/2001 7:52:09 AM PST by AshleyMontagu
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 79 | View Replies]

To: AshleyMontagu
I guess I have not made myself clear. Well you know English is my second language. I thought I had mastered it but you seem to have trouble understanding me. Or maybe you don't want to understand me.
82 posted on 10/31/2001 7:57:40 AM PST by Sabramerican
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 78 | View Replies]

To: Sabramerican
Send us your tired, your poor, your downtrodden. But please don't send us your Jews.
83 posted on 10/31/2001 7:59:21 AM PST by monkeyshine
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 61 | View Replies]

Comment #84 Removed by Moderator

To: Sabramerican
I were discussing holding dual citizenship as a concept. And loyalty as a concept. Citizenship is not like marriage. Most people don't choose it, it's happenstance. If fact, as they say of the love for adopted children, those of us who purposely choose the US manifest a greater love.

Yes, we were discussing the larger issue of loyalty, and divided loyalties with respect to access to U.S. secrets. Only possessing one citizenship is no guarantee that one's loyalties aren't divided. But in your case, citizenship was like marriage. You chose to become an American citizen. I never implied, or meant to imply that voluntarily becoming an American citizen (like your adoption example) makes one love the U.S. more than a native born citizen. But, dual citizenship is by it's very nature an official divided loyalty.

But, and this again proves my point- and I will end here- you write that citizenship qualifies you for such rights as fully participating (lets read that as voting) in a country. That's not exactly true. I don't vote in Israel. And Israelis born in the US don't vote here. There reason is that citizenship is not sufficient, you also need to be a resident.

(BTW,the matter isn't ended until you answer the question--your avoiding the question I asked you only buttresses MY point further.)

I was only referring to voting in the U.S. I'm not familiar with voting laws in Israel.

I am a citizen, live, work, vote and pay taxes in the United States. My Israeli citizenship is manifested by my holding an Israel passport without which I could never travel to Israel as they would not let me out of the country on my American passport alone. At this time, for me, my Israeli citizenship is an issue of paperwork. My affection for Israel would be identical was I a citizen or not.

Well, like it or not, it comes down to this: Your adopted country is telling you that you can't be a dual citizen and expect to get a security clearance. You can qualify for a security clearance, but you'll have to give up the convenience of traveling to and from Israel freely. Such is the case for those who have their feet planted in two camps.

But what you said about not being able to leave Israel without an Israeli passport confuses me. I would have no problem visiting Israel on an American passport alone? Why should you? Or is it that since you're Israeli born, Israel won't allow you to renounce your citizenship and still visit your relatives?

By the way, I appreciate being able to debate with you without it degenerating into an ugly Israel-bashing/Israel-apologist session, which so often occurs. Dual citizenship and loyalty to one's country (or countries) aren't necessarily incompatible, unless or until the interests of one country threaten the security of the other--then you're pretty much screwed. That's why I believe it's perfectly sensible, for any country, not just the U.S., not to allow dual citizens access to its secrets. I don't think Israel should allow dual citizens access to its secrets, either. It's the principle of the thing.

85 posted on 10/31/2001 8:10:53 AM PST by wimpycat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 69 | View Replies]

To: AshleyMontagu
Where's Foxman and the ADL? This is an outrage bordering on biblical proportions.

Get a grip. Having spent two decades of my life in the U.S. Army, I can state unequivocally that it is not in the least bit anti-Jewish. This is a personnel security matter, not a Jewish issue, whether you choose to believe that or not.

86 posted on 10/31/2001 8:16:02 AM PST by arm958
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: wimpycat
Here is another example:

I was born in America, to an American mother, who's father was a career U.S. Air Force pilot (rank: Lt. Colonel at retirement). There is no question then to my status as an American citizen.

But, at the time of my birth, my father was a French citizen. According to French law, like the American law, a child of a French citizen is French. So, I am French. I am not "dual loyal" I am loyal only to America. But, I am a dual citizen. I can't help it. I didn't make the laws. I didn't choose my parents. That's just the way it is.

My father has since been naturalized an American, but that doesn't change the fact that I am a Frenchman according to France. I didn't have to declare any oaths or renounce anything. It is simply a matter of the laws of the USA and France, and has nothing to do with my loyalties.

87 posted on 10/31/2001 8:23:25 AM PST by monkeyshine
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 85 | View Replies]

To: arm958
My husband was in the U.S. Navy for seven years. Even though he had pledged to uphold and defend the Constitution, etc., there were certain jobs and clearances he was not allowed to hold because he was not a U.S. citizen at the time, even though there was never any doubts about his loyalty. He agreed with the policy then and now.
88 posted on 10/31/2001 8:24:31 AM PST by wimpycat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 86 | View Replies]

To: monkeyshine
I don't know if the U.S. recognizes your French citizenship at all, since you're a native born U.S. citizen and you never renounced your U.S. citizenship, as long as you don't avail yourself of the benefits of French citizenship, such as holding an E.U. passport. I think the U.K. has the same rule. Once British, always British.

I don't know exactly how it works, but if the U.S. does recognize your French citizenship, well then, sorry--no security clearance for you.

89 posted on 10/31/2001 8:29:48 AM PST by wimpycat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 87 | View Replies]

To: wimpycat
I don't know if the U.S. recognizes your French citizenship

That's a meaningless statement. I can't imagine any reason for the US to need to recognize the dual citizenship status of one of its own citizens.

You can't use the fact of having a foreign citizenship as a defense for braking any American laws. Or to seek a special (American) status.

Which is again my point. "Dual citizenship" is a paper issue and nothing else.

If you're reading this Ashley: I put "dual citizenship" in quotation marks for you.

90 posted on 10/31/2001 8:43:24 AM PST by Sabramerican
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 89 | View Replies]

To: monkeyshine
Can you visit France without a French passport?

Under the same circumstances in Israel, at passport control they would make it very unpleasant- even under your facts considering none of minimal contact with France(Israel)- and you would likely miss your flight.

91 posted on 10/31/2001 8:49:06 AM PST by Sabramerican
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 87 | View Replies]

To: Sabramerican
Are you speaking to me? I'm still waiting to hear from you regarding the question I asked (see post #57). As long as you avoid or refuse to answer, I will consider my point as having been carried. If you're not going to answer, just say so, so we can move on. I'm not busting your chops--it's a question of politeness and reciprocity. I will answer, or tell you I'm not going to answer, every question you ask me.
92 posted on 10/31/2001 8:58:11 AM PST by wimpycat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 90 | View Replies]

To: wimpycat
I answered the best I could.

It's an impossible scenario and I tried to show that such dilemma would be available to people who are not dual nationals.

If you are attempting to question my specific loyalty to the US, that is not your place: even if I had not made my feeling about the US very clear over many years on this site.

93 posted on 10/31/2001 9:08:43 AM PST by Sabramerican
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 92 | View Replies]

To: Sabramerican
I answered the best I could.

No, you didn't answer the best you could. All you had to say was, "I would keep my mouth shut", or "I would spill my guts", or "It would be really tough and I don't know what I would do", but you didn't. You didn't answer at all, you merely threw the ball in my court and hoped I wouldn't notice.

It's an impossible scenario and I tried to show that such dilemma would be available to people who are not dual nationals.

It's not an impossible scenario, it's merely a hypothetical question, and I already know that you don't need dual citizenship to have divided loyalties.

If you are attempting to question my specific loyalty to the US, that is not your place: even if I had not made my feeling about the US very clear over many years on this site.

I was attempting to use a real-life example to prove my larger point, not to single you out in particular and give you a "loyalty" test. If you'd have just answered the question, it would never have gotten to this point. But anyway, I won't bring it up any more.

I would rather ask you another question, since someone mentioned you're a lawyer. If the US Army applies its "no top security clearance for dual citizens" rule equally across all nationalities, does this Mr. Pine have a discrimination case? And do you know what the outcome was of the guy who sued the CIA for ruining his career by taking away his security clearance? The author of the article conveniently neglected to mention the status of the case.

94 posted on 10/31/2001 9:30:21 AM PST by wimpycat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 93 | View Replies]

To: wimpycat
There is a distinction between law and facts. None of us know the truth of what is going on here. Any case he brings (if he brings one) will turn on specific facts since there was no legality (that we know of) to bar the service which he performed for many years. The Army's motives now would be in issue.

One could make an argument that since the status of dual citizenship is permitted, it would be illegal for the Government to discriminate. But then national security is allowed certain prerogatives. The courts keep busy because anything can be argued.

And because they are kept busy, unless that CIA case was settled, its probably pending.

95 posted on 10/31/2001 9:44:26 AM PST by Sabramerican
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 94 | View Replies]

To: Sabramerican
Sabra

You are correct, loyalty should be, and was, the sole criteria for clearances. This article refers to “new rules” which the others didn’t.

You and the others might enjoy reviewing a few of the cases involving security clearances. You will note, in the past, clearance was withheld “when an individual acts in such a way as to indicate a preference for a foreign country over the United States”. Yes, the EXERCISE (voting, use of passport, military service etc) of dual citizenship could be an issue. If you read the decisions, you will note that in the case of Israeli dual citizenship, use of the passport is not an issue, since it is required of Israeli citizens to enter or leave Israel, and military service is generally not an issue for the same reasons. And among the mitigating circumstances that would allow the granting of clearance, “dual citizenship is based solely on parents' citizenship or birth in a foreign country”, exactly the circumstances we are discussing.

INDUSTRIAL SECURITY CLEARANCE DECISIONS-Search for Foreign Preference; Foreign Influence

Dual US/Israel

Dual US/Israel

Dual US/Israel

96 posted on 10/31/2001 10:07:20 AM PST by SJackson
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 77 | View Replies]

To: wimpycat
And do you know what the outcome was of the guy who sued the CIA for ruining his career by taking away his security clearance?

I believe the CIA entered into settlement negotiations. Since this hasn’t been in the news for a couple of years I’d guess they were successful. If you review some of the articles on the Ciralsky case (do a search, you'll find plenty) you will find that the real issue was not dual-citizenship, but that he was an observant Jew. Among the criticisms noted in his file, buying Israeli bonds, donations to the United Jewish Appeal, attending an Orthodox synagogue having a “rich Jewish” daddy and "rich Jewish friends", wearing a yarmulke to work, a minor in college in Judaic studies, travel to Israel, and an apparently bogus polygraph test (his case has often been cited in reference to the unreliability of polygraphs). In general, the information used to strip him of his clearance was, according to George Tenet, “"insensitive, unprofessional and highly inappropriate,".

Ironically, the clearance he was denied was necessitated by a transfer to the Clinton White House.

97 posted on 10/31/2001 10:39:59 AM PST by SJackson
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 94 | View Replies]

To: SJackson
Thanks. Very interesting.

Without even being aware of these cases, a cursory reading shows that what I wrote above is pretty much how these things are handled. Each case turns on facts and not on a simple idea of being a dual citizen.

I wish you had posted this yesterday and saved me the time.

98 posted on 10/31/2001 11:10:22 AM PST by Sabramerican
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 96 | View Replies]

To: wimpycat
A question for you. The Ciralsky case started with a search for an agent mentioned in an intercepted Israeli cable. The CIA proceeded by profiling Jews (not dual nationals) on the basis of their religious activity. Kind of like the lists the FBI used to keep of their “Jewish” employees. The closer the ties to the American Jewish community (donations, temple membership, etc.) the greater the perceived threat. Do you think this kind of profiling is effective? Do you know of any agents caught this way? Do you think the CIA found the agent? I don't.
99 posted on 10/31/2001 11:21:31 AM PST by SJackson
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 94 | View Replies]

Comment #100 Removed by Moderator


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100101-109 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson