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To: wimpycat
I were discussing holding dual citizenship as a concept. And loyalty as a concept. Citizenship is not like marriage. Most people don't choose it, it's happenstance. If fact, as they say of the love for adopted children, those of us who purposely choose the US manifest a greater love.

But, and this again proves my point- and I will end here- you write that citizenship qualifies you for such rights as fully participating (lets read that as voting) in a country. That's not exactly true. I don't vote in Israel. And Israelis born in the US don't vote here. There reason is that citizenship is not sufficient, you also need to be a resident.

I am a citizen, live, work, vote and pay taxes in the United States. My Israeli citizenship is manifested by my holding an Israel passport without which I could never travel to Israel as they would not let me out of the country on my American passport alone. At this time, for me, my Israeli citizenship is an issue of paperwork. My affection for Israel would be identical was I a citizen or not.

69 posted on 10/31/2001 7:25:58 AM PST by Sabramerican
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To: Sabramerican
My Israeli citizenship is manifested by my holding an Israel passport without which I could never travel to Israel as they would not let me out of the country on my American passport alone.

What does this mean? Only Israeli citizens are allowed to leave Israel when visiting? Strange policy.

74 posted on 10/31/2001 7:37:22 AM PST by AshleyMontagu
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To: Sabramerican
I were discussing holding dual citizenship as a concept. And loyalty as a concept. Citizenship is not like marriage. Most people don't choose it, it's happenstance. If fact, as they say of the love for adopted children, those of us who purposely choose the US manifest a greater love.

Yes, we were discussing the larger issue of loyalty, and divided loyalties with respect to access to U.S. secrets. Only possessing one citizenship is no guarantee that one's loyalties aren't divided. But in your case, citizenship was like marriage. You chose to become an American citizen. I never implied, or meant to imply that voluntarily becoming an American citizen (like your adoption example) makes one love the U.S. more than a native born citizen. But, dual citizenship is by it's very nature an official divided loyalty.

But, and this again proves my point- and I will end here- you write that citizenship qualifies you for such rights as fully participating (lets read that as voting) in a country. That's not exactly true. I don't vote in Israel. And Israelis born in the US don't vote here. There reason is that citizenship is not sufficient, you also need to be a resident.

(BTW,the matter isn't ended until you answer the question--your avoiding the question I asked you only buttresses MY point further.)

I was only referring to voting in the U.S. I'm not familiar with voting laws in Israel.

I am a citizen, live, work, vote and pay taxes in the United States. My Israeli citizenship is manifested by my holding an Israel passport without which I could never travel to Israel as they would not let me out of the country on my American passport alone. At this time, for me, my Israeli citizenship is an issue of paperwork. My affection for Israel would be identical was I a citizen or not.

Well, like it or not, it comes down to this: Your adopted country is telling you that you can't be a dual citizen and expect to get a security clearance. You can qualify for a security clearance, but you'll have to give up the convenience of traveling to and from Israel freely. Such is the case for those who have their feet planted in two camps.

But what you said about not being able to leave Israel without an Israeli passport confuses me. I would have no problem visiting Israel on an American passport alone? Why should you? Or is it that since you're Israeli born, Israel won't allow you to renounce your citizenship and still visit your relatives?

By the way, I appreciate being able to debate with you without it degenerating into an ugly Israel-bashing/Israel-apologist session, which so often occurs. Dual citizenship and loyalty to one's country (or countries) aren't necessarily incompatible, unless or until the interests of one country threaten the security of the other--then you're pretty much screwed. That's why I believe it's perfectly sensible, for any country, not just the U.S., not to allow dual citizens access to its secrets. I don't think Israel should allow dual citizens access to its secrets, either. It's the principle of the thing.

85 posted on 10/31/2001 8:10:53 AM PST by wimpycat
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