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Al Qaeda's Balkan Links
Wall Street Journal Europe | November 1, 2001 | Marcia Christoff Kurop

Posted on 11/01/2001 3:53:17 AM PST by Stand Watch Listen

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To: Hoplite
>>>>Can you name anything of note directly attributable to Al Quaeda in the Balkans?<<<<<

Hooplite, this is rhetorical question, isn't it?

You really have guts to support Bin Laden after 911 ! if you provide your real name, you could be listed as Bin Laden chearleader.

51 posted on 11/01/2001 11:49:49 PM PST by DTA
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To: Hoplite
“…Serbs got mistreated and expelled from HDZ areas and Croats got mistreated and expelled from the RSK…”

The Muslims also helped the Croats ethnically cleanse the Serbs. They admit it:

http://news.beograd.com/english/articles_and_opinion/misc/david.html

Six years ago, at the height of the conflict in Bosnia, Ms. Decter asked me to translate testimonies given by a group of Bosnian Muslim prisoners that were brought to Boston (Allston) the previous day. They gave a harrowing account about being kept for months in a dark underground military tunnel in Hercegovina. The detainees described the torture and killings they witnessed, and talked about their transfer to the island of Badia and their consequent release to the USA. When they asked me to translate, the American Jewish Congress was not aware that the prisoners were not held in Serbian but in a Croatian detention camp. When did the Serbs put them in prison? the AJC representative repeatedly asked me. They were in a Croatian camp, I kept repeating. They were tortured by the Croats not Serbs. This came to them as a complete surprise.

To make the situation more ironic, the former Muslim prisoners described in detail how at the beginning of the conflict, they, together with the Croatians from the area, ethnically cleansed and killed all the Serbs from the town of Chaplina and the surrounding villages. They showed no remorse for their actions, but told me the story embittered by the betrayal of their former Croatian allies. The American Jewish Congress office in Boston never released the tapes, that are probably still in their possession. Since the tapes did not show the Serbs as being solely responsible for the civil war in Bosnia, Sheila Decter must have decided that it is better not to ruin her imaginary account of the conflict in Bosnia.


52 posted on 11/02/2001 3:51:16 AM PST by joan
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To: Hoplite
“Lastly, unlike true Mujahadeen, the majority of Muslims in the Balkans don't want anything to do with Sharia, and would be expelled or executed for heresy (wow, what irony) as soon as they came under any sort of fundamentalist islamic state - the fighting in the Balkans was never about religion as much as it was a simple power struggle cloaked under a religious vestment.”

Maybe the majority of Muslims don’t want anything to do with Sharia, but there are plenty of radical Islamists among the homegrown Muslims. Alija is a Fundamentalist and so is his party.

http://www.senate.gov/~rpc/releases/1997/iran.htm

3. The Radical Islamic Character of the Sarajevo Regime (page 8): Underlying the Clinton Administration's misguided green light policy is a complete misreading of its main beneficiary, the Bosnian Muslim government of Alija Izetbegovic. Rather than being the tolerant, multiethnic democratic government it pretends to be, there is clear evidence that the ruling circle of Izetbegovic's party, the Party of Democratic Action (SDA), has long been guided by the principles of radical Islam. This Islamist orientation is illustrated by profiles of three important officials, including President Izetbegovic himself; the progressive Islamization of the Bosnian army, including creation of native Bosnian mujahedin units; credible claims that major atrocities against civilians in Sarajevo were staged for propaganda purposes by operatives of the Izetbegovic government; and suppression of enemies, both non-Muslim and Muslim.

53 posted on 11/02/2001 4:12:28 AM PST by joan
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To: joan
>>>>>>the progressive Islamization of the Bosnian army, including creation of native Bosnian mujahedin units<<<<<<

read more

54 posted on 11/02/2001 5:51:09 AM PST by DTA
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To: Hoplite
Heroin trafficking through Iran (The Balkans route) has been interdicted, because Iran isn't on friendly terms with the Taleban. The majority of Heroin out of Afghanistan passes through the former Soviet Union on it's way to Europe now, and it comes from Northern Alliance poppy fields.

Yes, this is true, UP TO A POINT. Some interdiction has occured in Iran, and yes, Iran is no friend of the Taliban. BUT, the "majority" does not now travel through CIS, but rather still makes it across Iran into Turkey, then on through Kosovo and on to Europe. Lesson: Don't ride any Iranian busses!

Best regards, wonders

55 posted on 11/02/2001 11:27:05 AM PST by wonders
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To: joan
This is sad, but none of it surprises me. Little-known, but quite typical. Yes, sad but true, to be expected, etc. Good post!
56 posted on 11/02/2001 11:33:47 AM PST by wonders
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To: Hoplite
The question is whether Osama bin Laden was in the Balkans.

I see your point. Literally, maybe not, but in influence, definitely.

...the fighting in the Balkans was never about religion as much as it was a simple power struggle cloaked under a religious vestment.

Is that so uncommon?

Serbia has Muslims living peacefully inside its' borders, but they never posed a political threat to Milosevic, ergo, they were allowed to stay - not so the non-Serbs living in Croatia, Bosnia, and Kosovo who threatened Milosevic's power.

I don't know about Croatia or Bosnia, but the separatists in Kosovo were at it long before Milo had any power to threaten.

57 posted on 11/02/2001 12:48:05 PM PST by Balto_Boy
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Comment #58 Removed by Moderator

Comment #59 Removed by Moderator

To: joan
Joan with all the respect, but even the Serbs gave figures about 250.000 - 300.000 expelled Serbs (ethnic cleansing) from Croatia. Which is still a HUGE number and doesn't change a thing. But no need to inflate facts. I don't disagree with you on this matter anyway.
60 posted on 11/03/2001 12:42:14 AM PST by bluester
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To: F-117A; DTA
Let's try again:

Can you name anything of note directly attributable to Al Quaeda in the Balkans? What attacks have they made against American interests there?

The main thrust of the thesis here is that Al Quaeda is supported by or at least tacitly approved by the Bosnian government and is working hand in hand with the KLA, and that's simply not the case. One could make a more convincing argument that the US government was supporting the IRA based on the same methods and evidences being tried here - and making real world decisions based on misinformation makes for bad policy.

61 posted on 11/03/2001 6:19:31 PM PST by Hoplite
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To: joan
Unlike the Serbs, however, their government hadn't planned for the wholesale expulsion of the Serb segment of the population from BiH areas - little bit of a difference there, Joan. (Capljina?)

There were and still are radical Islamists in Bosnia, but let me reiterate the point - they weren't ordering the destruction of Orthodox or Catholic churches, or the institution of a system of forced expulsion and concentration camps wherein Croats and Serbs could be seperated from their valuables and lives, with the added 'benefit' that those taking part would gain incentive to never live with their former neighbors again. Take this example from 1994 and compare it to events in Banja Luka - quite a contrast.

Good pull on the RPC brief - maybe someone will read it and figure out that Al Quaeda wasn't driving events nor the potential big benificiary in Bosnia. Sadly, it doesn't address the fact that the reason the Iranians were sending arms was that nobody in the West had the balls to call the UN sanctions regime what it was - an institutionalization of the BSA's advantage in weapons, and do anything about it until 1995 when the nature of the war and the combatants could no longer be denied.

62 posted on 11/03/2001 6:20:17 PM PST by Hoplite
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To: wonders
Some interdiction? The Taleban, until 9/11 had actually prohibited Opium cultivation in areas under its control (while maintaining large 'contingency' stockpiles, true) and Iran has made quite an effort to counter smugglers.

DOJ Report (although inconclusive as to our issue).

And...

Ten years later many Western criminal intelligence agencies still regard the Balkan route as the most active trafficking conduit. Despite this sustained widespread belief, several factors strongly suggest that illicit opiates from Afghanistan (and Pakistan) are increasingly being routed through what is referred to as the 'northern' route.(source)

Feh, still inconclusive, however. Had enough for tonight. = )

63 posted on 11/03/2001 6:21:49 PM PST by Hoplite
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To: Balto_Boy
What I'm taking issue with here is the view that Osama Bin Laden is some Deus ex Machina pulling strings in the Balkans. I haven't seen any evidence to support that contention, and, as it's being used to support the view that the BiH is, by association, a nation supporting terrorists, and I'm going to see this thread referenced on another thread as some kind of proof in the future, well here I am.
64 posted on 11/03/2001 6:24:04 PM PST by Hoplite
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To: Black Jade
Milosevic? As a souce of information?

This is a joke, right?

65 posted on 11/03/2001 6:25:59 PM PST by Hoplite
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To: Hoplite
This all out attempt to plant this Jihadist fundamentalist Islamic template on Bosnian Muslims just hasn't had much of anything to support it has it? Could it be because it is the wrong template? The template doesn't seem so applicable to those nasty Turks either. I admire your energy on these threads, but for me, the gang has long since ceased to be relevant to anything. Time has passed them by. Their trope has been exposed as totally fictional.
66 posted on 11/03/2001 6:30:02 PM PST by Torie
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To: DTA
bump - the mainstream is slowly getting it

About time, huh.

67 posted on 11/03/2001 6:45:55 PM PST by Great Dane
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To: grania
Think Milosevic could help with this problem?...oh that's right, he's in jail. That was supposed to cause world peace or whatever.

The whatever, is to keep NATO leaders butts out of the courts, if Milosevic is not found guilty, NATO will have a lot to answer for......... therefore they will find him guilty, no matter what.

68 posted on 11/03/2001 7:00:10 PM PST by Great Dane
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To: Hoplite
and making real world decisions based on misinformation makes for bad policy.

We know that, as misinformation was all we got from officials and media during the attack on Serbia.

69 posted on 11/03/2001 7:15:06 PM PST by Great Dane
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To: Hoplite; DTA
Let's try again!

"...his organization hasn't been responsible for anything of note in the Balkans..." -- Hoplite

"The bin Ladin network supports terrorists in Afghanistan, Bosnia, Chechnya, Tajikistan, Somalia, Yemen, and now Kosovo."
-- Released by the Coordinator for Counterterrorism, August 21, 1998 (United States State Department - clinton administration)

What ever the Bin Laden network did in Bosnia and Kosovo was severe enough to be included in the list of seven. I guess you consider that to be nothing of note! I suggest you take your problem up with the U.S. State Department.

U.S. State Department document

p.s. Good try at spin, but the fact that I am not privy to State Department sources does not make their clasification invalid.

70 posted on 11/03/2001 7:42:22 PM PST by F-117A
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To: Torie; Hoplite; vooch; randalcousins; Hamiltonian; Black Jade
The template doesn't seem so applicable to those nasty Turks either.

Turkey Police Arrest Five on Al Qaeda Link

Bin Laden In Turkey Twice

Turkey's Islamist press fumes at US for 'crusade' against Islam

Time is on my side, yes it is. Time, time, time is on my side, yes it is.

71 posted on 11/03/2001 9:50:54 PM PST by Pericles
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To: Hoplite; F-117A; DTA; vooch
Can you name anything of note directly attributable to Al Quaeda in the Balkans? What attacks have they made against American interests there?

In Bosnia-Herzegovina, The World Bank became the third institution to shut down its office in Bosnia for security reasons. American and British officials shut down their embassies on Wednesday due to ``a credible security threat.''

US Attacks Put Spotlight on Bosnia Muslim Community ``Osama is our brother''

Report: Bin Laden linked to Albania

Bin Laden’s Invisible Network

The Balkan Branches of the Terror Network "in search of blond Moslems"

Terrorists Use Bosnia as Base and Sanctuary

BOSNIA: Terrorists Go Native

Indictment Made in 9/11 Hijack Case ``Martyrs of Bosnia''

72 posted on 11/03/2001 10:09:19 PM PST by Pericles
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To: Hoplite; F-117A; DTA; vooch
Can you name anything of note directly attributable to Al Quaeda in the Balkans?

Swiss Extradite Suspected Extremist "recruited volunteers to fight in Bosnia"

73 posted on 11/03/2001 10:13:06 PM PST by Pericles
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To: Hoplite; Pericles; DTA; vooch
Can you name anything of note directly attributable to Al Quaeda in the Balkans?

"For example, one such group about which details have come to light is the Third World Relief Agency (TWRA), a Sudan-based, phoney humanitarian organization which has been a major link in the arms pipeline to Bosnia. ["How Bosnia's Muslims Dodged Arms Embargo: Relief Agency Brokered Aid From Nations, Radical Groups," Washington Post, 9/22/96; see also "Saudis Funded Weapons For Bosnia, Official Says: $300 Million Program Had U.S. 'Stealth Cooperation'," Washington Post, 2/2/96] TWRA is believed to be connected with such fixtures of the Islamic terror network as Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman (the convicted mastermind behind the 1993 World Trade Center bombing) and Osama Binladen, a wealthy Saudi emigre believed to bankroll numerous militant groups. [WP, 9/22/96] (Sheik Rahman, a native of Egypt, is currently in prison in the United States; letter bombs addressed to targets in Washington and London, apparently from Alexandria, Egypt, are believed connected with his case. Binladen was a resident in Khartoum, Sudan, until last year; he is now believed to be in Afghanistan, "where he has issued statements calling for attacks on U.S. forces in the Persian Gulf." [WP, 9/22/96])"

Clinton-Approved Iranian Arms Transfers Help Turn Bosnia into Militant Islamic Base

The wealth of evidence pointed out by others makes one wonder if you have turned from being an apologist for clinton to an apologist for Usama Bin Laden.

74 posted on 11/04/2001 5:07:09 AM PST by F-117A
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To: Hoplite
Yes indeed it was the political goal of the BiH government (Izetbegovic) and the Croats to expel Serbs from all the terroritory they controlled. This was done in Mostar and Sarajevo and all throughout the country side.

Serbs were tortured and raped and killed by the thousands, and put in hundreds of concentration camps, which they list. However, as they are not the PC correct people, crimes against them are ignored.

The Ristovics were mother and father, teachers, and two little boys. Two little boys murdered to scare the Serbs out of Sarajevo. Sick, cruel, but not a war crime because they were Serbs. But now they are dead and the Muslims are probably a-praisin' Allah.

ex-yu press

Murder of the Ristovic Family

Since we are talking about murders, I would like to ask you about the Ristovic family case. When in the summer of 1992 the Ristovic family was murdered, the first news stated that Murat Sabanovic was the murderer...

I remember that well. It was said that Murat Sabanovic murdered the Ristovic family with a group of men from Sandzak. That was even officially stated by the then Minister of Defense, Jerko Doko. Such information was then given to the then Chief of Staff, Sefer Halilovic, and he sent the Military Police to arrest me. Dzevad Topic Topa came to arrest me and I told him that I did not kill the Ristovics and that I would not surrender my weapons. The Ristovics were murdered by the Police. That was a political murder. The goal was to demonstrate to the Serbs that there was no life for them in Sarajevo. Then Topa called Sefer from my office to ask for further orders. Since in the meantime Sefer obtained the true information, he ordered them to get back to their base. That was lucky because I certainly would not have surrendered alive. After that, the Police started spreading rumors that the murderer, Murat Sabanovic, was on the run. I think that Bakir Alispahic was involved in all that. I went to the Police and asked: are you looking for me? They said: "No..." I asked: "Why, then, are you saying that I am on the run?" They said:"Let it be." The formulation that I was on the run in practice meant that any police officer could have shot at me on the street. Therefore, I would be gone, a dead mouth does not speak, and the real murderers of the Ristovics would get away. Fortunately, the truth was soon found out. Five men who killed the Ristovics were arrested, and one of them was a body guard of Bakir Alispahic. Three of them were declared insane, and two were allowed to escape. Therefore, the murderers again got away.

75 posted on 11/04/2001 8:20:41 AM PST by joan
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To: joan; Hoplite
Actually the family with the little boys was a whole other family besides the Ristovics. The family were the Golubovic's - no such separation of men and boys here: just kill the entire family. Boy, those Muslim police were murdering entire families to scare off the Serbs:

http://www.balkanpeace.org/hed/archive/may00/hed94.shtml

Serb Victims Exhumed In Bosnian War Crimes Trial

KONJIC, May 7, 2000 -- (Reuters) Bosnia's judicial authorities on Saturday exhumed the remains of four members of a Bosnian Serb family as part of the war crimes trial of three Moslem policemen charged with killing them.

The policemen are on trial before the cantonal court in the southern town of Mostar, charged with killing the Golubovic family in July 1992, early in the 1992-95 Bosnia war.

They were charged with the murder of the family in January 1999, but the prosecutor of Bosnia's Moslem-Croat federation got permission from the Hague-based war crimes tribunal to change the charges to those of war crimes killings.

The Golubovic parents, respected high school teachers in Konjic, about 40 km (25 miles) south of Sarajevo, and their two sons of five and seven were taken from their house at night and killed. The three policemen are also from Konjic.

Djordjo Unkovic, 75, the children's grandfather, said he had not learnt where the four were buried until last year, when he placed a monument at the site. "I only want to know the truth" about their murder, he said.

On Saturday the remains of four bodies were removed from the grave for formal identification.

Dusko Tomic, who is representing the Golubovic family at the trial, said the crime was committed for the purpose of ethnically cleansing Konjic. "Politics is responsible for the crime," he told Reuters.

After the murders, not a single Bosnian Serb or Croat wished to remain in Konjic, he said. "They understood the murders as a message that all of them must leave Konjic if they wanted to stay alive," Tomic said.

The three policemen were detained in 1994 after an investigation into the murder of the Golubovic family, but were declared mentally incompetent and released soon afterwards.

Reuf Zaimovic, the president of the multi-ethnic court council that is running the first war crimes trial in Mostar, said he hoped that the trial, which has been monitored by UN war crimes tribunal representatives, would end in June.

"We only want justice to be done and criminals to be punished," said Risto Golubovic, a brother of the murdered Djuro Golubovic.

Formerly multi-ethnic, Bosnia was divided by the 1995 Dayton peace treaty that ended the three-year war there into two entities, a Moslem-Croat federation and a Serb republic, loosely linked by a central government.

The trial continues.

76 posted on 11/04/2001 8:32:21 AM PST by joan
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To: Hoplite
What I'm taking issue with here is the view that Osama Bin Laden is some Deus ex Machina pulling strings in the Balkans.

So your point is that Bin Laden's network is in the Balkans, but that he's not pulling any strings there and are not part of attacks on Americans? Would you say that of all Bin Laden terrorist cells, including that which has just attacked the U.S.?

77 posted on 11/04/2001 12:52:24 PM PST by Balto_Boy
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To: Hoplite
Milosevic? As a souce of information? This is a joke, right?

No more so than believing any Bin Laden cell is a reliable source of information.

78 posted on 11/04/2001 12:54:43 PM PST by Balto_Boy
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To: wonders; joan
BUT, the "majority" does not now travel through CIS, but rather still makes it across Iran into Turkey, then on through Kosovo and on to Europe. Lesson: Don't ride any Iranian busses!

I second that - I checked with a buddy who works for EUROPOL. As for the Iranians, they have made a big effort but they are not doing very well. I vaguely remeber that the US was helping them with equipment (NVGs etc) to help govern their borders more efficiently.

VRN

79 posted on 11/05/2001 1:42:25 AM PST by Voronin
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To: Great Dane
The whatever, is to keep NATO leaders butts out of the courts, if Milosevic is not found guilty, NATO will have a lot to answer for......... therefore they will find him guilty, no matter what.

The level of evidence is extremely low, that is why they keep on changing the rules and the standards. Remember, it was in response to the propaganda of the Serbs carrying out 'systematic rape' that rape was for the first time legally regarded as a war crime. It was ok to rape women before (especially if they were white or near anything important), but it changed to get those nazi Serbs.

The plan is really to keep Milosevic in Jail for the rest of his natural life as the judicial processes practiced in the Hauge are extremely elastic with indictment and charges added and removed at will, and each having to be investigated over a long period. The HRW report that accidentally conincided with the new and proposed hauge indictments boasted of using 'new statictical methods' to collate evidence in a comprehensive way that has never been done before: i.e. massage the figures to suit the conclusion.

I wonder what would have happened if the forces in Bosnia had not interdicted the planned attacks on SFOR bases and troops...

I wonder if CdP will bring up the Germand and Bulgarian designed Potkovka (Horseshoe) plan of the JA to ethnically cleanse the Albanians out of Kosovo. She might do if she becomes desperate.

VRN

80 posted on 11/05/2001 1:53:09 AM PST by Voronin
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To: F-117A; DTA; vooch; Pericles; Hoplite; wonders; joan; tonycavanagh; bluester; Balto_Boy; konijn...
Now when the other side says it... Hardly so clear cut.

Hasan Cengic's Conspiratorial Logic

Stench of Terrorism

WE ARE LIVING THE "ISLAMIC DECLARATION"

Fifth Corps is Responsible for War Between Bosniaks

VRN

81 posted on 11/05/2001 2:32:41 AM PST by Voronin
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To: Black Jade
Flagskis!

VRN

82 posted on 11/05/2001 2:34:01 AM PST by Voronin
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To: Voronin; God
Unfortunately, there are still people out there who insist on continuing to apply the 'Dukes of Hazzard' standard of logic and complexity to the Balkans.

VRN

83 posted on 11/05/2001 2:38:49 AM PST by Voronin
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To: Voronin
The level of evidence is extremely low, that is why they keep on changing the rules and the standards.

As low as the evidence against Bin Laden and his involvement? Many things are very clear. Such as the position of Milosevic when the war crimes were comitted, his responsibility, his power over the army, his financing and supporting the various paramilitary units, the same units responsible for numerous crimes against civilians.

Let's put it this way, if it is apparent that Bin Laden was behind the WTC terrorist attacks, then it's even more obvious what Milosevic was behind. His links to Karadzic, Mladic, Martic are very well known. And the money he sent them to finance their "activities".

84 posted on 11/05/2001 3:42:24 AM PST by bluester
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To: bluester
As compared to the easy life Izetbegovic, Augosto Pinochet et al??? If you are going to be a war-criminal, make sure the USA and Europe back you first. The only rule.

The Brits are quite happy to let off old Nazis that live in their country etc. etc.

VRN

85 posted on 11/05/2001 3:49:45 AM PST by Voronin
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To: bluester
Let's put it this way, if it is apparent that Bin Laden was behind the WTC terrorist attacks, then it's even more obvious what Milosevic was behind. His links to Karadzic, Mladic, Martic are very well known. And the money he sent them to finance their "activities".

Law of the Jugle then. Boy, have we come a long way.

VRN

86 posted on 11/05/2001 3:50:43 AM PST by Voronin
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To: Voronin
I totally agree with your criticism and pointing toward the double standards at applying the rule of law. I have absolutely nothing to object as far as that is concerned. Cause you are right.
87 posted on 11/05/2001 4:10:42 AM PST by bluester
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To: bluester
That's wonderful then. I don't mind people having different opinions (otherwise life would be very boring), but the inability to apply the same standards and the moral trumpeting from hypocrits makes me sick (won't mention Robin 'ethical foreign policy' Cook and his buddies).

VRN

88 posted on 11/05/2001 4:50:54 AM PST by Voronin
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To: Voronin
Law of the Jugle then. Boy, have we come a long way

Actually, I was talking about the links, financing and support that Milosevic himself had admitted. I am not sure you read the interview where he was explaining where all that federal money went. It apparently went into good hands, so that Serbia's national interests were being protected, according to him. And Mladic, Karadzic, Martic were those protectors. Law of the jungle? Just plain evidence Voronin, simple facts.

89 posted on 11/05/2001 4:51:16 AM PST by bluester
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To: bluester
Plain and simple as Tudjman backing his 'boys' in Bosnia and Izetbegovic taking Saudi and Kuwaiti money, arms and mujahideen. Of course, if Milosevic had been a sensible chap, he should have just cut off the Bosnian Serbs so that they could be carved up by the Croats and Bosnian moslems, like they did before, or was that just a made up story? I don't know if you read my links but the alternative scenario would have had everyone living under Izetbegovic's lovely radical Islamic state, or is that just pure propaganda and Izetbegovic is just a fun loving guy who meant no harm and really wasn't put in prison several times for his plans and actions to turn the whole of the SFRY into a radical moslem state Mr. Blubegovic? 'Nuff said.

VRN

90 posted on 11/05/2001 5:38:16 AM PST by Voronin
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To: Voronin
Tudjman just as well. He is just not among us any more. And not just for supporting his "boys in Bosnia", but even more importantly for the crimes against Serb civilians during Oluja, and driving out more then 250.000 of them out of Croatia. He would have quite a lot to be held responsible for. Just as the generals that have been brought before Hague that were under his command.
91 posted on 11/05/2001 6:00:03 AM PST by bluester
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To: Hoplite; wonders; joan; Pericles
Thanks for posting the facts w/ citations.......proving that poor Hoppie continues to defend Clinton's funding, supplying, training, and promotion of Bosnian & KLA Mujhadeen

Especially thanks to posting the article regarding the brutal Mujhadeen attacks on the moderate Muslims led by Fikret Abdic.

Humanitarian Warriors such as Hoplite supported the Mujhadeen V Corps campaign of pillage and destruction against the legally elected President of Bosnia Fikret Abdic. Hoplite continues to refuse to address the simple question Why didn't the Humanitarian Warriors support the moderate Fikret Adbic instead of the fundamentalist Iztbegovic ?

.............why ?

92 posted on 11/05/2001 6:10:15 AM PST by vooch
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To: bluester
But explain this to me Bluster: If Milosevic can be indicted as he is a the top of the Chain of Command, why is Izetbegovic still free and no ministers of the Tudjman regime indicted??? Is it at this points that certain governments plead 'national security' or that such actions could destabilize the balkans further. The Hague is a joke. If there was a way to set up a court that could try major world criminals, the Hague is the perfect way NOT to do it, and that is why it is a court for banana republics and why Senator Dole etc. says that a World Court will be DoA. That's not justice, but a media circus.

VRN

93 posted on 11/05/2001 7:23:39 AM PST by Voronin
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To: vooch
Don't expect to get a sensible answer. In fact, it's not even worth the effort. For what it's worth, we have history on our side, we just may be all dead by the time something comprehensive and sensible is published in the West...

VRN

94 posted on 11/05/2001 7:26:43 AM PST by Voronin
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To: Voronin
Hmm you have a point. If they can bring and indictment against Izetbegovic then I see no problem in bringing him before the Hague court. And if they can link him with the mujahadeen fighters, or even with Naser Oric and his forces, then there is nothing to argue about. Anyone responsible for war crimes should be held responsible.

And you can't say that the Hague court isn't doing their job. After all they have brought people of various nationalities before the court. You see it as a banana court, a media circus, I may not see it that way. Which doesn't mean that your criticism and objections aren't justified, but without this kind of court, there would be many people free with lot's of blood on their hands. Some still are. And don't say that they would be helf responsible at home, cause in many cases they clearly wouldn't be. The Croat generals that were eventually brought to Hague (with a lot of opposition in Croatia) would probably never be before a court, had there not been Hague and demands by the west towards Croatia to extradite them. Just as in Serbia. At least that's how I see it.

95 posted on 11/05/2001 7:35:47 AM PST by bluester
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To: bluester
It's quite simple. I suspect that you, like myself, would rather be tried in our own 'soverign' courts that at the Hauge. It does a job, but it is politically motivated and influenced by outside forces. The Western governments turn the evidence tap on and off at will. If you know anything about the acquis communautaire that your state and others wishing to join the European Union is about, one of the most fundamental parts is 'independence of the judiciary'. Under these standards, the Hague and it's methods wouldn't stand a chance.

Impartial and fair justice has to be seen to be done (not just told), which is not the case with the Hauge - if it were, then the nationalist of all those communities would have a much lower level of support. The fact that the Hauge does nothing to counter this and mirrors the colonial administration approach that is taken by persons such as Wolfgang Petritsch which means that it will never be accepted as impartial (and that's without even mentioning who payed/s, supplies, researches the whole Hauge thing). If the major powers refuse to accept a World Court, then why should any of the parties believe the treatises that the Hauge is impartial? Looks like a question of who yields the biggest stick, no?

VRN

96 posted on 11/05/2001 8:00:42 AM PST by Voronin
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To: Voronin
I must say, it's very hard to disagree with you. Because in so many ways you are right. Personally, I have never made any illusions about the complete impartiality (and honesty)of such institutions, about the double standards, hypocrisy that is a common thing in international politics, even from a judicial point of view.

Had there been real justice, and intent to bring all sort of war criminals before a court, those of the last decade and those dating back to WW2, and post WW2, then you should have had both people like Arafat, Gadafi, Sharon, high UN officials that were in Bosnia, certain NATO people, some American politicians, some Slovenian (Mitja Ribicic, for post WW2 outerjudicial executions) and a bunch of people from all over the world with blood on their hands. All that is very true. And I am afraid that justice will never get all of them, even though they would deserve it.

97 posted on 11/05/2001 8:20:52 AM PST by bluester
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To: bluester
Dude,

awesome, line of thinking re: Nasir Oric-Iztbegovic chain of command.......

Then you would also agree that Kfor commanders bear a measure of responsibility for the four fold increase in murder rate since they took control ?

98 posted on 11/05/2001 10:12:34 AM PST by vooch
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To: vooch
Absolutely. Not even trying to stop criminals.
99 posted on 11/05/2001 10:17:32 AM PST by bluester
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To: vooch
And not just the KFOR in Kosovo, but some high UN officials in Bosnia as well. Some of them even cooperated with Bosnian war criminals, drank alcohol together with Karadzic and Mladic, giving them a carto bianco for their crimes. Even Srebrenica is partly to be blamed on the UN. And then you have Lord Owen, and a couple of other lords who were involved. Man, I would loved to see them in front of the Hague court, and bringing witnesses to testify about their role. I am sure Karadzic would have much to say about them as well as about Milosevic. But then, that must be the reason why they don't really take great effort to arrest him. Hypocrits.

And where the hell is Naser Oric? He should be cleaning his laundry together with Slobo.

100 posted on 11/05/2001 10:30:11 AM PST by bluester
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