Posted on 11/13/2001 3:32:01 AM PST by vrwc54
Aviation expert and former National Transportation Safety Board official Vernon Grose said late Monday that he's increasingly skeptical that the crash of American Airlines Flight 587 was purely accidental."I am backing away from the ready idea that this is simply an accident," Grose told Fox News Channel's John Scott.
The veteran air crash prober said that he questions the sequence in which the plane broke up over Jamaica Bay before slamming into a residential area in Rockaway, Queens.
"Photographs you've already shown tonight [indicate] the vertical stabilizer of the aircraft with the American Airlines insignia right on it [fell into] Jamaica Bay long before the engine falls off in Queens," he told Scott.
Grose said that if the vertical stabilizer detached from Fight 587 over Jamaica Bay, which the plane traversed before plummeting to the ground in Rockaway, it suggested that catastrophic engine failure alone may not have caused the crash.
"No, I don't think that's the situation at all," he told FNC.
"The engine that came free, which apparently was the number 1 left engine, crashed on land. That was well after the vertical stabilizer was detached from the aircraft, and that tells me that somehow ... the airplane was progressively disintegrating, not just losing an engine and then diving into the ground."
"Earlier today I thought it was simply the loss of an engine that caused this," Grose said. "But I'm not convinced now. ... I am becoming more skeptical."
Plus an FBI guy said the NTSB and FBI were essentially doing a parallel investigation.
If a bomb went off in the baggage compartment, does it usually announce' I think it's time for me to blow up'????
This is still quite strange, the more I think about it, the less sure i am about anything
They haven't released the passenger list. I keep wondering if there was some govt hot-shot on that plane. LOL...tin foil is REALLY hard to remove.
Clinton's FBI said it was a accident.
Funny, that's the same thing they said about an hour after this plane hit the ground.
I really have a tough time believing the FBI, especially so quick, after the crash and in light of TWA800
I suppose 'we' should have realized that a WTC event was probable. But the govt is truly negligent in not taking the proper precautions to keep these lands secure. NOW, that the horse is escaping the barn, they are trying to close the door on it, but it's too late. Plus the fact that they are neglecting the BACK door to the 'barn'....the inflow of foreigners...STILL.
Hate to say it... but thank GOD that this IS the land of a certain Constitutional right.
As I recall, it was on UA flight 587. Am I wrong?
The bad thing about the bright spot is that everyone will be as cynical as Jammer.
My guess is that Bush's media/PR machinery is not going to risk negating the good will and support of the overall populace by espouzing a lie that will not be bought. The gaging of the lie is being surveyed and assessed RIGHT NOW! A decision will be made in the next few hours whether to support the lie or go with people.
Good Point! I think we've already seen that. Ari's press conference was more balanced than statements from the NTSB or others. And Bush used the word "incident" not "accident."
Mr. Bush....if you and your spin machine are reading this, don't try the lies and cover-up schtick. It didn't work with klintler/hitlery/gorsky, it WON'T work for you! Besides.....it would go against your religious beliefs, the one about 'bearing false witness'. I know, I live it, and so a LOT of OTHER Americans. LOL.
So then, you'd have to ask "Say what? Why?", well maybe since 9-11 they have some panic button, voice not needed, anything going wrong with a plane, the pilot pushes a button, this signal is transmitted down and around the command and control food chain in a timely manner, to whomever is flying aircap, and I doubt that NYC DOESN'T have 24/7 armed military aircap right now. So, someone in that chain misinterprets a warning signal, someone else gets the nod to "do their duty", and a whoopsie daisy is the result.
The government already said clearly "no more hijackings", zero tolerance, they get shot down, so perhaps a minor mechanical problem got misinterpreted as a hijacking, one thing leads to another in a very short time span, and you got plane A on ground B, minus parts C, D, and E which got blown off and fell elsewheres, the biggest chunk out over the water where the noises were when it all started, and where it might have been safer for a "takedown" move...
Look at various governments "zero tolerance" attemtps with other issues, tweety bird keychains leading to a suspension at a school, pictures of an army man, suspension, travelers getting on an airplane, nailfiles and fingernail clippers confiscated. On and on, thousands of examples of misinterpreting reality. some poor slob just sells a car, got 4 grand cash on him, gets pulled over for something, cops sees the cash, the poor slob is now an automatic drug dealer.
Government always acts as a drunken eleephant, it really has little finesse or grace, not really, it blunders this way or that, either completely ignores a problem-like security up to 9-11, or over-reacts, uses a howitzer as a flyswatter.
Who is this guy? What is his background? I know that they say he is a former NTSB investigator, but he sure doesn't sound like he know too much about aircraft or accident investigations. Anyone know about him?
...somewhere amongst all the BS.
My take on it is that these two orgs have newly developed PR teams that are staying aprised with the sentiment of the nation. Hell, they may even have lurkers here.
I believe both those sentences strongly. I believe a poster whose initials are K.C. and one whose screen name begins with an "_" are. I don't post their full names because this reply may be removed.
A decision will be made in the next few hours whether to support the lie or go with people.
Good point. Do you think the FBI has focus groups to try out various explanations?
I had to look too. Great pic. vrwc54 needs to post it.
It does not particularly comfort me when people who have not yet retrieved the wreckage--let alone examined it--immediately and forcefully state that it was an accident. It comforts me still less when they mention this just after stating that if it's a terrorist attack, it will kill off the airline industry. (As if mechanical defaults will make any of us feel more comfortable about flying!)
I think that's very likely. Also someone pointed out this plane was making round trips to Santo Domingo so the sabatage could have been done there out of the US, even the planting of a bomb.
The area where the engines and most of the aircraft came down is only three or four blocks wide, with Jamaica Bay on one side and the Atlantic Ocean on the other.
1. The vertical stabilizer is a lot lighter than an engine.
2. From observing the smoke plume, it is obvious that there was a fairly strong breeze off of the ocean - toward Jamaica Bay.
3. Depending on the altitude of the aircraft when the "engine came off", and the distance "off-shore" where the stabilizer and other "light" parts fell in Jamaica Bay it is conceivable that the engine could have knocked these parts off. The engine would have dropped almost vertical but the lighter parts could have been blown back the several blocks toward Jamaica Bay.
Just a thought. We'll soon know for sure.
Well, it once was. I don't know if it is anymore other than lip service.
I remember the AA Chicago O'Hare crash in 1979. An engine fell off that plane too. But they didn't find the tail in Lake Michigan. The plane fell down; it didn't disintegrate.
This crash is far different.
Any confirmation that this flight originated in Boston?
The helicopter was really reported close by, by eyewitnesses, the fighter plane also close by to the airbus, like, where's these guys testimony, and why were those first inital eyewitness reports being ignored now? Where's the statements from the crews on those military aircraft, they were even closer eyewitnesses in the area then the guys in the boats and on the ground when it all went down. Haven't heard an official peep from government about those eyewitnesses, nor heard any talking head ask any questions about them.
If I don't ask it, someone else is going to remember and ask it, and never been a-skeered of a tinfoil label, never. It really is simple, the still alive eyewitnesses who were in closest proximity to the airbus at the start of the incident are remaining un-quoted and ignored by the press, just wondering what their story is. I offered a possible explanation, which is not all that farfetched. there is precedent, iranair is one example, twa800 *might* be another example.
Just a rhetorical question, doesn't require an answer, but last year,just a year ago, would you have believed a 'shoot down" order on civil aircraft from the government, instead of just arming the pilots and crew? In a perceived emergency? "Shoot down" means shoot down. The nation is jumpy, these military protectors are jumpy, signals can get crossed, stuff happens. I know a guy misread a number over a radio, just a number, up and down the c and c chain it went, all the way to a pretty spectacular "friendly fire" episode. stuff happens.
This is a possibility, and I wonder aloud about it because the closest eyewitnesses are not being questioned about it, the government has not even offered a synopsis of what they might have seen, which you would think they would have been extremely fast to do, but they haven't done so. One leads to the other. If they haven't, 'why not"? they didn't see anything? Doubt that. If they saw the plane just start breaking up in flight, what's the odds joe government would be crowing about what they saw? Odds are highly in that favor you would think. Instead, nothing, no reports from those pilots or crew, even massaged reports.
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