“Attack on America” Not to Be Linked to End-time Bible Prophecy!

The Preterist Homepage ^ | Unknown | Ken Davies

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

Attack on America” Not to Be Linked to End-time Bible Prophecy! These Are Not the “Last Days”! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (INDIANAPOLIS) - Christian evangelical endsayers are at it again and in a big way. Last week’s attack on America “is the beginning of the end,” they are saying. But, once again, they will be proven wrong! Unfortunately, their popular, gloom-and-doom, and “it’s-inevitable” message is destructive and counterproductive to U.S. efforts to fight terrorism. Their end-time scenario plays right into the hands of terrorists and incites hatred. Hal Lindsey said on TBN’s Praise the Lord program last Thursday [9/13/01] that U.S. efforts “will [only] delay the ultimate judgment of America. . . . we have to slip from power.” Best-selling author, John Noe (pronounced No-ee), and John Anderson, video producer and talk show host of the syndicated radio program Voice of Reason, condemn the role popular end-time interpretation of Bible prophecy has played and is playing in the unfolding of these tragic and cowardly events. “It is time to wake up to Biblical fact, not fiction, and re-evaluate this perverse misuse of past and precisely-fulfilled Scripture,” they contend. Noe’s award-winning book, Beyond the End Times, Scripturally and historically documents how the “last days” were confined to a 1st century timeframe and details how the fulfillment of all end-time Bible prophecy took place exactly as expected. Noe is an evangelical scholar who is challenging the doom-saying trend with solid substance. He is a Ph.D. in Theology candidate, an active member of the Evangelical Theological Society, and President of the Prophecy Reformation Institute. He has been featured on numerous media programs including Larry King Live and The 700 Club. Anderson is an experienced radio talk show host, a frequent guest on other national programs, and President of Lighthouse World Ministries. His just-released, 45-minute video, The Last Days, offers irrefutable evidence why modern-day end-time pundits like Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye, Jack Van Impe, and Pat Robertson are dead wrong, why our world is never going to end, and more. In stark contrast to the endsayers, Noe and Anderson are voicing a message of non-compromised hope and wholehearted Scriptural support for President Bush and our country’s positive efforts and long-term motivation to rid the world of this evil.

[RaceBannon]

He's wrong.

[Khepera]

bimp

[out_of_control]

Nope... He's right on. The pessi-millenial crowd, i.e. Pre-millennial have got Matt. 24, Lk. 21, Mk. 13 and Revelation all wrong. The events described therein are tied to "this generation" and to the "armies surrounding Jerusalem" which occurred with the Jewish War 66-70 AD, and the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem in 70 AD.

The Kingdom of God is growing into a great mountain as Daniel 2 says, "44 “In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. 45 This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands—a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces."

[John H K]

I've never understood why there aren't more Christian types arguing that worrying about whether this is the end times are not is a complete waste of time...

If you're living your life any differently because you think the end times are upon us...isn't there something wrong with that? Just keep your nose clean, lead a good life, help others, and if the end comes, the end comes.

Its almost as if people are afraid that they can't get anyone interested in Christianity unless the end of the world is next year.

The whole apocalpyic obsession band the popularity of "Left Behind" and stuff like that strikes me as the Christian equivalent of pornography...it's a fantasy...people are frustrated that there is no objective, real-world evidence there is a God or that Christianity is the correct religion that they can throw in the face of agnostics, atheists, casual religion types, non-Christians, etc; they're frustrated that the world isn't behaving like the Old Testament with bad guys getting struck down and good guys rewarded and signs from God every few weeks.

It's a fantasy to see their smug non-churchgoing neighbor across the street with his nicer house and big boat and better car freaking out when the trumpets start sounding and the 7 lambs float through the sky getting trampled by horses or whatever and then have his house swallowed up by a fissure in the ground, so they can gloat over his demise and do "I TOLD you so!" to all those dumb people who didn't believe in the apocalpyse...just like Y2K.

And an additional problem is that apocalpytic stuff turns the end-times obsessed Christians into outright liars...violating a commandment can't be good. You see the Revelation nuts talking about the "recent rise in earthquakes, storms, etc" when there's been no increase in earthquakes at all (for example, this year, believe it or not, so far we've had a slightly BELOW normal number of large -Magnitude 7 or higher - earthquakes in the world.

[He Rides A White Horse]

Unfortunately, their popular, gloom-and-doom, and “it’s-inevitable” message .

Well, it is inevitable...the trick is determining when "now" is.

[aquawrench]

The gates of hell will prevail against hal lindsey's church, not God's.

[He Rides A White Horse]

You see the Revelation nuts talking about the "recent rise in earthquakes, storms, etc" when there's been no increase in earthquakes at all

The primary message in Revelation is to not be sleeping when the master comes home.

[Gimlet]

I agree. There is nothing that need to concern the righteous. We cannot know when the end will come. We can only try to be ready for when it comes. For it comes for all of us sooner or later however much we want to pretend it does not. We are all unworthy.

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

The European Union has a single Currency they have or will have an Army. They could be a revived form of Rome no? When will it happen! When will it happen! No man shall no the hour or day of christ's return. I heard on TBN someone say the 200 Million man Army from the east will be China. They reasoned since the chinese abort the baby girls they saw no other purpose for the chinese men.

That is the point. The Bible said it would happen in the Apostles generation and it alreadt has!

[out_of_control]

Why I believe the Great Tribulation has already happened in the past.

1) See the relevant passages, Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21

2) Jesus gave an approximate date for the great tribulation when he said, "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place (Matt. 24:34). This generation means the people living at that time--they would not pass away before the things He prophesied took place. Some say that "generation" means "race", and read the verse to say, this Jewish race will not pass away, etc. But the word "generation" never means race in the bible. It always means contemporaries. Thus, the events of Matt. 24 took place within the lifetime of the generation living when Jesus spoke. Indeed, Jesus promised in Matt. 23:36-38 that this generation of Israel was about to be judged for rejecting God's Son.

3) The Temple was destroyed just as prophesied in Matt. 24:1-3 in AD 70.

4) The seven signs of the end are signs, not of the end of the world, but the end of the age--that is, the end of the Temple, and sacrificial system and the end of Israel as the covenant nation. The signs mark the period between Christ's resurrection and the Temple's destruction in AD 70: False Messiahs, v. 5 Wars, v. 6-7a, Natural disasters 7b-8, Persecution, v. 9, apostasy, v. 10-13, worldwide evangelization v. 14, and the abomination of desolation. These things all happened during that period as Christ prophesied, even the evangelization of the nations. Pausl said, in Col. 1:5-6, "the gospel which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing..." he said in v. 23 that it "was proclaimed in all creation under heaven." He said in Rom. 1:8 that "your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world" and in 10:18 that the voice of gospel preachers "has gone out into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world." The abomination of desolation was prophesied by Daniel in 9:26-27 and it refered to the coming of armies to destroy Jerusalem and the Temple. See Luke 21:20-22. It was the armed invasion of Jerusalem. The armies came in A.D. 66. When the Edomites came as well, in 68, they surrounded the city with 20,000 men. At that time, Josephus wrote, "there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continual lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and any one would gues that these wonders foreshowed some grand calamities that were coming." The Edomites broke through the wall of the city and in the Temple slaughtered 8,500 people, by slitting their thoats. They rushed through the streets murdering everyone they met, including the high priest. cf. Lk. 21:23-24.

5) Matt. 24:19-21 says, "there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, no ever shall." Luke 21:23-24 says, Jerusalem will be trampled unde foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Both indicate that the tribulation doesn't take place at the end of history but in the middle. Josephus said of that time, that "the day-time was spent in the shedding of blood, and the night in fear... it was common to see cities filled with dead bodies."

6) When Jesus speaks of the coming on the clouds it is not a reference to the Second Coming, but a reference to his coming in judgment on Jerusaelm and the Temple, because of Israel's rejection of the Messiah.

7) When He speaks of the cataclysmic events in the heavenlies it is a reference to the shaking and collapsing of the nation(s), not to literal changes in the sky. The picture is one of de-creation, when the stars fall, etc. The bible repeatedly uses this poetic language to speak of the judgment upon nations see Isaiah 13:9-10 (a ref. to the fall of Babylon); Isaiah 34:4 (the fall of Edom); Amos 8:9 (the fall of Samaria); Ezekiel 32:7-8, (the fall of Egypt).

However, having said that the Jewish Historian, Josephus spoke of an event during the fall of Jerusalem, that may combine both the literal and the figurative understanding of this reference. He wrote, "Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one-and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner court of the temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence."

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

Amen Brother!

[Fithal the Wise]

Clearly, the many prophesies within the Mt 24 Lk 32 and Mk 13 discourse cannot be be regarded as being fulfilled during the time of the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem. The context demands that "this generation" refers to the generation that sees these things.

[elephantlips]

You touch upon some interesting points in you tirade against Christians. Yes, Christians who spend their time worrying that this is the "big one," are out of line with the Bible which tells Christians to live their lives normally, going about their business. Also, any Christian who would look at their rich un-saved neighbors being "swallowed up in a fissure" and say, "I told you so," are way out of line. However, to rail on Christians because of their beliefs is wrong and is on you. Christians who believe in an after-life are okay no matter what happens. People who do not believe in God and an after-life have only a 50/50 chance of being right and they had better hope they aren't wrong.

[out_of_control]

The tribulation, acc. to Scripture was an event that preceded the giving of the kingdom to another nation, namely the church (Rev. 11). There have been 'anti-Christs' throughout history, but there is no one anti-Christ as Hal Lindsey, et al have been teaching.

BTW, Lindsey says that the modern statehood of Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy that has ushered in teh last days and that the end should come a generation (40 years) from that time. 40 years has come and gone. So, he has had to shift his thinking and now he's saying its 40 years from the time the Israeli's captured Jerusalem in 1967. Although I hear he is now even fudging on that, since we are drawing closer to 2007.

Keep in mind that Revelation must be interpreted by the biblical imagery therein, not by the newspaper. For ex. the coming on the clouds... or the left behind. Note who was left in Noah's judgment... it was Noah and his family. The ones taken were the ones taken in the flood. The righteous are left, the wicked are taken, just the opposite of rapture theology.

Look, this is a long and involved subject, but I suggest you get hold of a couple of books. A Second Look at the Second Coming by T.L. Frazier and Paradise Restored by David Chilton. They are excellent resources that I believe you will find scripturally sound.

[out_of_control]

No, it is not so clear as you say. Just the opposite. "This generation" is referring to the generation He was speaking to. That is very clear!

[mad_as_he$$]

You make the most sense I've seen in awhile on this subject. Thank you.

However, Christians should be reminded that Christianity has killed at least as many people in the name of religion as any other religion on earth. This makes all formal religions suspect to me.

IMHO mankind will never be happy until the last priest is strangled with the guts of the last lawyer by the last politician who is shot dead by the FBI responding to a tax evasion enforcement call.

Flame on....

[RnMomof7]

ping..

[drstevej]

1,000 years = 1,000 years

[ClimoMike]

1000=1000 is not always true. the number 1000 is used as an symbolic number in different place in the bible to make a point, here are a few. "Therefore know that the Lord your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments;"(deut 7:9) Does God stop having mecy on geneeration 1001?? "For every beast of the forest is Mine, And the cattle on a thousand hills(ps 50:10)" Does the cattle on the 1001th hill belong to the devil?? "even if he lives a thousand years twice--but has not seen goodness. Do not all go to one place? (ess 6:6)" did any person at the time of Solomon live 2000 years? Or is the thousands years trying to make a point.

The one thing that caused me to reject a literal 1000 years after Jesus comming, was the bible leave many questions unanswered about what happens after the 1000 years 1.) Why does the bible not mention a resurrection of the millennial saints? The second death has power over them who take part in the second resurrestion! 2.) why would Jesus reign in a literal kingdom for 1000 years on this pitiful dying earth? 3.) Why do we have to want 1000 years for a new heaven and new earth? 4.) why would Jesus make his people suffer the effects of crying, death and pain for 1000 years? and many many more

[Jeremiah Jr]

Revelation 13

1 And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.
2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.

[DreamWeaver]

The only one thing I am certain of re: this article is that Pat Robertsonsand Hal Lindsey's motives are more political than Godly. They use the Word for political agendas. That is IMHO.

[Thinkin' Gal]

Thanks for the ping.

KJV 19 verse containing the phrase "this generation". Words of Christ in red.

Genesis 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

Psalms 12:7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Psalms 71:18 Now also when I am old and grayheaded, O God, forsake me not; until I have shewed thy strength unto [this] generation, and thy power to every one that is to come.

Psalms 95:10 Forty years long was I grieved with [this] generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:

Matthew 11:16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,

Matthew 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Matthew 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Matthew 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mark 8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.

Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luke 7:31 And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like?

Luke 11:30 For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.

Luke 11:31 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Luke 11:32 The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Luke 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

Luke 11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

Luke 17:25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

***

Luke 11:29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.

Luke 11:30 For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.

Matthew 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

Matthew 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

1074 genea {ghen-eh-ah'}
from (a presumed derivative of) 1085; TDNT - 1:662,114; n f
AV - generation 37, time 2, age 2, nation 1; 42

1) fathered, birth, nativity
2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive
members of a genealogy
2b) metaph. a race of men very like each other in endowments,
pursuits, character
2b1) esp. in a bad sense, a perverse race
3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time
4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive
generation), a space of 30 - 33 years

[Thinkin' Gal]

The most spectacular Leonid meteor storm in 35 years is forecast for November 18, 2001 in the Americas and Monday in Asia and Australia as Earth passes near centuries-old debris left by comet Tempel-Tuttle. The celestial storm could affect some satellites orbiting close to earth, so NASA scientists are making sure their spacecraft stay out of harm's way. (Reuters Graphic)

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/nm/20011116/sc/meteor_shower_graphic.html

Leo constellation (sickle or backwards question mark)

[RaceBannon]

Yes, there IS something wrong with that!! We are just fooling ourselves into thinking we are not of the foolish virgins who need oil for their lamps! Maybe people see these things and are trying to get oil!

[Prodigal Daughter]

John Noe: "Noe" is Spanish for Noah. Spanish: El Arca de Noe = Noah's Ark.

[It'salmosttolate]

Isaiah 30:25
There will be on every high mountain And on every high hill Rivers and streams of
waters, In the day of the great slaughter, When the towers fall.

It'salmosttolate
There will be at the top of every national goverment and every government under them great discussion
and thought, In the day of the great slaughter, When the towers fall.

[Texas Yellow Rose]

	John said:  "You see the Revelation nuts talking about the "recent rise in earthquakes, storms, etc" when there's been no increase in earthquakes at all (for example, this year, believe it or not, so far we've had a slightly BELOW normal number of large -Magnitude 7 or higher - earthquakes in the world."
It is interesting to note that the Bible does not speak of rises in the quantity of earthquakes.  The words earthquake or earthquakes is mentioned only 16 times in the KJV. Matthew actually says: Matthew 24:7, "For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places." Equally interesting is that this particular verse of the Bible does not indicate global warfare.
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[so_real]

So much education ... but where is the wisdom here?

So the second coming of Christ has already occurred, huh? Hmmm... Didn't find any mention of that in my high school history books. Oh, and the saved dead have been raised into the sky and the living saved have already joined them? Wow! Missed the video of that on the eleven o'clock news. Hey, and who was that antichrist fella that was supposed to come to absolute power? I can't think of anyone who fits the bill.

Nah, I think I'm gonna keep reading my Bible and waiting for Jesus to come. Thanks anyway for the entertainment.

[Texaggie79]

the trick is determining when "now" is.

Now is exactly 3 min 2.38888 seconds after 3 min 2.38888 seconds ago.

[2sheep]

>>>Leo constellation (sickle or backwards question mark)

Sickle -- appears only 12 times in KJV.   12 = DIVINE ORDER of God.  Man's order (10) + the Son (2) = 12.

De 16:9  Seven weeks shalt thou number unto thee: begin to number the seven weeks from such time as thou beginnest to put the sickle to the corn.

De 23:25  When thou comest into the standing corn of thy neighbour, then thou mayest pluck the ears with thine hand; but thou shalt not move a sickle unto thy neighbour's standing corn.

Jer 50:16  Cut off the sower from Babylon, and him that handleth the sickle in the time of harvest: for fear of the oppressing sword they shall turn every one to his people, and they shall flee every one to his own land.

Joe 3:13  Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

Mr 4:29  But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle because the harvest is come.

Re 14:14  And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Re 14:15  And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

Re 14:16  And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Re 14:17  And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

Re 14:18  And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

Re 14:19  And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

[Texas Yellow Rose]

	"2b) metaph. a race of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character 2b1) esp. in a bad sense, a perverse race" Perfect generations
Genesis 6:9, "These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God." Perfect =  08549 tamiym {taw-meem'}.   Translated as "without blemish"  44 times in the KJV. Generations = 1c) generation (characterised by quality, condition, class of men) A thought:  What was going on in Noah's day?
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[drstevej]

I respect your convictions. I have a PhD from Westminster Seminary and have great respect for my former professors who do not share my eschatology.

Accepting, as I do, basic dispensational premises... the 1,000 year reign as a period of fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant with Israel makes sense to me.

I never have been one to set dates or try to fit the details of the news into a prophetic chart. However, I do believe the return of Israel to the land (in a state of unbelief) in 1948 was an event of tremendous biblical significance.

God Bless you!

[Citizen of the Savage Nation]

Here is what Yashua has to say about this. It might just be eye-opening:

Matt 24:1
Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him.
24:2 And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things ? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."
24:3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately *, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age ?"
24:4 And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you.
24:5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many.
24:6 "You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.
24:7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.
24:8 "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.
24:9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
24:10 "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
24:11 "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
24:12 "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
24:13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
24:14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
24:15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand ),
24:16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
24:17 "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
24:18 "Whoever is in the field must not turn back * to get his cloak.
24:19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
24:20 "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.
24:21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever * will.
24:22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no * life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
24:23 "Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him.
24:24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
24:25 "Behold, I have told you in advance .
24:26 "So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them.
24:27 "For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
24:28 "Wherever * the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
24:30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
24:31"And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
24:32 "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near;
24:33 so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.
24:34 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
24:35 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows , not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
24:37 "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
24:38 "For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage , until the day that Noah entered the ark,
24:39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
24:40 "Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left.
24:41 "Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.
24:42 "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.
24:43 "But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into.
24:44 "For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.
24:45 "Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time?
24:46 "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.
24:47 "Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions.
24:48 "But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,'
24:49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards;
24:50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know,
24:51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

From no less authority than God I will leave it to let the reader read and see for themselves why His coming has not happened yet. This is the full context of the subject.

[Texas Yellow Rose]

Thanks for posting this 2sheep.

[wwjdn]

According to the Bible not even Jesus knows the day of the second coming. Live life as it is your last and prepare for heaven, it just may be your last or everyone's last day.

[RnMomof7]

A thought: What was going on in Noah's day?

what we do know:

Luke 17
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

2 Peter 2
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

What we do know is these people closed their ears to the preaching of righteousness..they lived for their own pleasure ..

And we know God's judgement on mans depravity

Isaiah
59:1Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
2But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid [his] face from you, that he will not hear.
3For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.
4None calleth for justice, nor [any] pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity.
5They hatch cockatrice' eggs, and weave the spider's web: he that eateth of their eggs dieth, and that which is crushed breaketh out into a viper.
6Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works [are] works of iniquity, and the act of violence [is] in their hands.
7Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts [are] thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction [are] in their paths.
8The way of peace they know not; and [there is] no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace.
9Therefore is judgment far from us, neither doth justice overtake us: we wait for light, but behold obscurity; for brightness, [but] we walk in darkness.
10We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if [we had] no eyes: we stumble at noonday as in the night; [we are] in desolate places as dead [men].
11We roar all like bears, and mourn sore like doves: we look for judgment, but [there is] none; for salvation, [but] it is far off from us.
12For our transgressions are multiplied before thee, and our sins testify against us: for our transgressions [are] with us; and [as for] our iniquities, we know them;
13In transgressing and lying against the LORD, and departing away from our God, speaking oppression and revolt, conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood.
14And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.
59:15Yea, truth faileth; and he [that] departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw [it], and it displeased him that [there was] no judgment.

[Fithal the Wise]

Please clarify for me with specificity, how for example the following verses from Matthew 24 were fulfilled by 70 AD.

3 ... And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

4 And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you.

5 For many will come in My name, saying, "I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.

6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.

10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.

11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.

12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.

13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

[Texas Yellow Rose]

	YES, my point exactly! "Luke 17 26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 2 Peter 2 4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; "
... just throwing out some thoughts here... ...they did eat (what?) they did drink (what?) they married wives (who?), they were given in marriage (who?) and the flood came and destroyed them all (who?).  Reminds me of this section of 2 Peter:  "Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;" Conintuing with 2 Peter 2 Peter 2:12-22, "But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, (Noah was "Perfect =  08549 tamiym {taw-meem'}.   Translated as "without blemish" 44 times KJV) sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

[jude24]

That sounds rather susupiciously like the doctrine of the Total depravity of man!

:-)

[RnMomof7]

That sounds rather susupiciously like the doctrine of the Total depravity of man! :-)

Ya think ??? ;>)

[RnMomof7]

A living waters Amen sister!

[kansas_goat_roper]

So what you are saying is that Christ returned in 70 A.D.?

Are you a preterist?

KS_Goat_Roper

[PeaceBeWithYou]

I have studied the Preterist views, I believe I can answer your questions.

(Note that this was the "end of the age" or covenant(old testament) that was being discussed here and also note that the second coming is tied to these events.)

Matthew 24:1-2: This was fulfilled literally in AD70 when the Romans under Titus, completely destroyed Jerusalem and the temple buildings. Stones were even pried apart to collect the gold leaf that melted from the roof when the temple was set on fire. (from excavationary evidence in 1968.)

Verses 3-8 This was refering to the time to come when the Emperors of Rome mainly Nero(AD58-68), Galba(AD68-69) Otho(AD69Jan.-April) Vitellius(AD69 April-December), Vespasian(AD69-79),Titus(AD71-79 as associate emperor, AD79-81 as emperor), and Domitian(AD81-96).. all usurped the title of Lord to themselves and enforced it. The Roman Empire became very wicked and corrupt at this time, it struggled to keep the lands it had conquered within the Empire, while suffering with corrupt leadership.

Verses 9-15: Refers to the siege of Jerusalem by the Roman authorities.(Then you will be turned over to be persecuted and put to death.) The turning away, the appearance of false prophets, the trials of Christians in Roman courts(The gospel of the Kingdom preached as testimony to all nations.) The symbol of the Roman Empire placed in the holy place in Jerusalem.(The "abomination that causes distruction" spoken of by Daniel placed in the temple.)

Verses 16-22: The fall and exodus from Jerusalem.

Verses 23-26: Warning to stay in hiding even if word comes of the second coming.

Verses 27-30: The obviousness of his coming to all.

Verse 31: The gathering of the elect.

Verse 32-33: Summation of the warning.

Verses 34-35 Affirmation that Jesus is speaking the truth, that this generation is when these things are to occur, and that his word will survive the end of the age.

Of note also is that with the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem, the records that were stored within, were also destroyed. With the gathering of the elect anyone that would pass on that he had returned, wouldn't be around to tell us so. But because Jesus said that his words would survive the destruction, we know that it happened just as described. This doesn't let us off the hook so to speak, as we still must face the judgement after our death, or at the end of time, whichever occurs first. Also of consideration is that there could be a third coming, but very few Preterist feel that way.

That's the Preterist view as I understand it. If I botched it up, please feel free to correct me.(set your flamer to it's lowest setting, please.);-)

[2sheep]

A thought: What was going on in Noah's day?

One thing clear from Noah's day is that the world was so sinful that only 8 souls were saved, so if we look at the endtimes we see that truly few there be that find it will apply.  Elsewhere the scripture says that many [polus=most] would be deceived and the broad way that leads to destruction is wide and the narrow gate is strait [difficult, not straight] that leads to eternal life.. 

Today there are many false prophets and false teachers running around saying millions are going to be saved and there is going to be a great revival, which are both false doctrines.  They seek unity when there can be no unity without holiness and they seek tolerance and compromise in the ecumenical lukewarm middle.  Christians have become too nice and have played right into the hands of the spirit of the antichrist.  God has always said "pick sides" and requires that we be hot or cold or not.  We are to be salty and if the salt loses its savor, it is to be cast out.  The Hebrew word for "utterly" is charam which is used to mean either "utterly devoted" or "utterly destroyed."  That is awesome to contemplate.

"utterly"
2763. charam
charam khaw-ram'

a primitive root; to seclude; specifically (by a ban) to devote to
religious uses (especially destruction); physical and reflexive, to
be blunt as to the nose:--make accursed, consecrate, (utterly)
destroy, devote, forfeit, have a flat nose, utterly (slay, make
away).

[stemwinder]

Hal Lindsey has made a living out of this heresy for 30 years.