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Taken as red
Ha'aretz ^

Posted on 12/07/2001 10:15:51 PM PST by madrussian

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Interesting piece of history. Real life, not Hollywood schlock or pseudo-history.
1 posted on 12/07/2001 10:15:51 PM PST by madrussian
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To: CommiesOut
It deserves a thread.
2 posted on 12/07/2001 10:17:40 PM PST by madrussian
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To: madrussian
She deserved whatever pain she recieved. If it had been up to her, most people on FR and the rest of te world would be in chains or gulags.
3 posted on 12/07/2001 10:25:25 PM PST by KantianBurke
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To: KantianBurke
When it was up to Lenin and his merry band of Bolsheviks, millions were put in gulags and murdered. But as someone said, they were simply "idealists". Right.
4 posted on 12/07/2001 10:29:31 PM PST by madrussian
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To: KantianBurke; madrussian; malarski; Askel5; GROUCHOTWO; Zviadist; kristinn; Free the USA...
If it had been up to her, most people on FR and the rest of te world would be in chains or gulags.

Let's hope that nowadays she writes books only.

5 posted on 12/08/2001 2:24:59 AM PST by CommiesOut
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To: madrussian; malarski; Askel5; GROUCHOTWO; Zviadist; kristinn; Free the USA; struwwelpeter...
I can't believe it, comrade.
She even had conflicts with the California Communist Party leadership.
What a troublemaker.
More
6 posted on 12/08/2001 3:41:25 AM PST by CommiesOut
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To: madrussian
I'm curious as to why she stayed in the Soviet Union after her parents returned home to America. Did she really believe she would have more opportunities there? And I'm curious as to why the parents thought life in the USSR was going to be so good for Jews; there had been pogroms there for YEARS and Jews had been coming the the US to escape them! I guess, like their daughter, they were looking for some entity to take care of them.
7 posted on 12/08/2001 3:51:52 AM PST by SuziQ
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To: madrussian
But as someone said, they were simply "idealists".

How did you know that? Bought a book already?
That's what it says on the front flap:
"For much of the time she was an idealistic supporter of Soviet socialism and a dedicated member of the Young Communist League".

8 posted on 12/08/2001 3:55:05 AM PST by CommiesOut
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To: madrussian
I take it she reunited with her family and they all work for a major American media outlet.
9 posted on 12/08/2001 6:01:32 AM PST by Leisler
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To: CommiesOut
YCL=a mirror image of Hitler's Youth, the former causing even more blood-letting than the latter.
10 posted on 12/08/2001 8:38:27 AM PST by GROUCHOTWO
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To: madrussian
This is a "man bites dog" story. Jews who left the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union to come to the United States were among the least likely of any immigrant group to ever go back. Millions left but only a few thousand ever returned.

The number of Jews who returned to the Soviet Union in the 1930's is dwarfed by the number who left the Soviet Union before 1990 and returned to Russia after the fall of communism.

11 posted on 12/08/2001 8:49:53 AM PST by Inyokern
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To: madrussian
When Abraham succumbed to a serious illness in 1959, Mary applied for an exit visa: The time had come to reunite with her parents in the United States.

Just wondering what happened to poor Abraham. If I can read Mary's "idealistic" mind, she probably left him dying in the Soviet Union to go back to the country that she despised, good ol' USA.

Also, she must have joined the spy agency on her own, ready to spy on us. The citizens of the Soviet Union were not compelled to join the KGB or any other intelligence gathering organization. It was their own choice. What a scum.

12 posted on 12/08/2001 4:04:10 PM PST by malarski
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To: malarski; madrussian
John Walker (Maryland/California Taliban) should write a thick book and ask Laurie Bernstein and Robert Weinberg for Introduction.
Then he can put money in the bank and wait for pardon from Pres. Hillary or Pres. Kennedy Townsend.
13 posted on 12/09/2001 10:23:05 AM PST by CommiesOut
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To: SuziQ
And I'm curious as to why the parents thought life in the USSR was going to be so good for Jews; there had been pogroms there for YEARS and Jews had been coming the the US to escape them!

You are confused, pogroms happened in isolated parts of the Russian Empire, like Ukraine. This story goes against the usual "Stalin was an anti-semite and Jews were victims in the Soviet Union" revisionist mantra.

14 posted on 12/09/2001 11:09:01 AM PST by madrussian
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To: madrussian
You are confused, pogroms happened in isolated parts of the Russian Empire, like Ukraine.

Because that is where the Jews lived. Duh.

When the Russian revolution occurred in Moscow, there were almost no Jews living in Moscow.

15 posted on 12/09/2001 12:02:41 PM PST by Inyokern
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To: Inyokern
Because that is where the Jews lived. Duh.

Perhaps you are trying to blame Russians for the pogroms that didn't happen in Russia? LOL! You know they would have happened in Russia if the Jews had lived there, right?

When the Russian revolution occurred in Moscow, there were almost no Jews living in Moscow.

Not as many as in Ukraine, that's for sure. The February revolution removed the pale and made Jews free, and they repaid with overthrowing Provisional government.

16 posted on 12/09/2001 12:09:51 PM PST by madrussian
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To: madrussian
Perhaps you are trying to blame Russians for the pogroms that didn't happen in Russia?

I didn't blame the Russians for any pogroms on this thread.

The February revolution removed the pale and made Jews free, and they repaid with overthrowing Provisional government.

So between Feburary and October 1917, the Jews moved enmasse to Moscow, raised an army and overthrew the Kerensky government? Do you really believe something so absurd?

The fact is that most Jews (or at least, the small number who had any interest in Russian politics at all) supported the Kerensky government.

17 posted on 12/09/2001 12:48:59 PM PST by Inyokern
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To: CommiesOut
John Walker (Maryland/California Taliban) should write a thick book and ask Laurie Bernstein and Robert Weinberg for Introduction.

Or perhaps Thaddeus "Ted" Kascynski.

18 posted on 12/09/2001 1:40:50 PM PST by Inyokern
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To: Inyokern
Any neo-commie moron would work.
What a country, eh?
19 posted on 12/09/2001 1:46:34 PM PST by CommiesOut
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To: Inyokern
Don't forget Rabbi Daniel Bergman!!!
20 posted on 12/09/2001 3:05:11 PM PST by GROUCHOTWO
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To: GROUCHOTWO
Don't forget Rabbi Daniel Bergman!!!

Don't forget Marian Zacharski, who could write a book entitled "How to Steal US Military Secrets and Get Off Scot Free."

21 posted on 12/09/2001 3:11:41 PM PST by Inyokern
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To: Inyokern
I didn't blame the Russians for any pogroms on this thread.

One could interpret your "Duh" as a suggestions that the same would have happened in Russia.

So between Feburary and October 1917, the Jews moved enmasse to Moscow, raised an army and overthrew the Kerensky government? Do you really believe something so absurd?

It does sound absurd if your scenario is the only one conceivable. The fact that the overwhelming majority of the Bolsheviks in Lenin's government were Jewish is sufficient to realize who were the main Bolsheviks supporters and ideologues.

22 posted on 12/09/2001 3:13:20 PM PST by madrussian
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To: madrussian
The fact that the overwhelming majority of the Bolsheviks in Lenin's government were Jewish is sufficient to realize who were the main Bolsheviks supporters and ideologues.

That is like saying the fact that the membership of the National Black Republican Network are black means that most blacks are Republican.

Most Jews were not communist in 1917. National politics was a foreign concept to most Jews back then.

The Russian Revolution began in Moscow and St, Petersburg, places where there were virtually no Jews, rather than Kiev, Odessa or Minsk, or, for that matter, Poland, where Jews were numerous.

The places where Jews lived were not centers of resistance to the Provisional Government of Kerensky. There were Jews associated with Lenin, but there were also many Jews associated with Kerensky.

23 posted on 12/09/2001 3:42:48 PM PST by Inyokern
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To: Inyokern
He was exchanged for 25 Western agents!!!
24 posted on 12/09/2001 3:43:32 PM PST by GROUCHOTWO
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To: madrussian
One could interpret your "Duh" as a suggestions that the same would have happened in Russia.

My "duh" meant that it would pointless to have a pogrom in a place where there were no Jews. The pogroms took place in Ukraine because that was where the Jews were.

Do you understand now?

25 posted on 12/09/2001 3:46:26 PM PST by Inyokern
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To: GROUCHOTWO
He was exchanged for 25 Western agents!!!

What does that have to do with Zacharski's guilt and the fact that he still owes the US Government a lot of years in prison?

26 posted on 12/09/2001 3:50:07 PM PST by Inyokern
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To: Inyokern
The government decided to excuse him because they wanted their 25 spies back. What did the government get when Mossad spy Marc Rich blackmailed Clinton for a pardon?
27 posted on 12/09/2001 4:08:16 PM PST by GROUCHOTWO
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To: Inyokern
Hey, did you know there is a serious connection between Kaczynski and the Nazis?
It should keep you busy for a while: Ross E. Getman, Wagner opera and Ted
Seriously though, we unleashed Kaczynski only for one purpose: to give Sandler a rhyme to "Lewinsky" in his Passover Song.
Adam Sandler's Passover Song .
So, be nice.
28 posted on 12/09/2001 4:35:51 PM PST by CommiesOut
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To: Inyokern
That is like saying the fact that the membership of the National Black Republican Network are black means that most blacks are Republican.

For your analogy to work, Bolshevik government would have to be called Jewish faction of Bolshevik government.

Most Jews were not communist in 1917. National politics was a foreign concept to most Jews back then.

You mean members of a party? Of course not. Party members were always a minority. Sympathizing with destruction of Russia and perceiving it as their tribal revenge? Quite possibly. Tribal interests have always been paramount in Jewish community.

The Russian Revolution began in Moscow and St, Petersburg, places where there were virtually no Jews, rather than Kiev, Odessa or Minsk, or, for that matter, Poland, where Jews were numerous.

Jews were numerous in Menshevik and Bolshevik movements. History is often done by militant minorities, with majority being rather apathetic or not knowing better.

The places where Jews lived were not centers of resistance to the Provisional Government of Kerensky. There were Jews associated with Lenin, but there were also many Jews associated with Kerensky.

Provisional government was overthrown by Bolsheviks, and we know who were in charge there.

29 posted on 12/09/2001 4:36:35 PM PST by madrussian
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To: Inyokern
The pogroms took place in Ukraine because that was where the Jews were.

Do you understand now?

Are you saying that the only reason the pogroms didn't take place in Russia because there were few Jews? And that they took place in Ukraine because that's where the Jews were? LOL!

30 posted on 12/09/2001 4:45:19 PM PST by madrussian
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To: SuziQ
I'm curious as to why she stayed in the Soviet Union after her parents returned home to America.

Probably because of hormonal needs. She was young, no parents supervision and the idea of the New Soviet Man probably appealed to her.

31 posted on 12/09/2001 5:35:39 PM PST by malarski
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To: madrussian
During World War II, Leder is fired by the hope that the Soviet nation is fighting fascism. In reality, she finds that Soviet society has turned its back on her due to anti-Semitism.

It seems that the reviewer is really confused on the issue of the anti-Semitism. The Soviet nation is fighting fascism and at the same time is anti-Semitic. Hmm, kind of mutually exclusive statement.

32 posted on 12/09/2001 5:48:38 PM PST by malarski
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To: madrussian
Me: Most Jews were not communist in 1917. National politics was a foreign concept to most Jews back then.

You: You mean members of a party?

No, I meant not communist or communist sympathizers. National politics was a foreign concept to Jews in that era. The rabbis advised Jews not to become involved in the politics of a gentile nation.

Tribal interests have always been paramount in Jewish community.

Avoiding pogroms was the only constant motivating factor in the Jewish community of the Russian Empire. Very few Jews were interested in any radical revolution.

Jews were numerous in Menshevik and Bolshevik movements. History is often done by militant minorities, with majority being rather apathetic or not knowing better.

History is often portrayed by the majority population in a way that scapegoats minorities for all problems. You have yet to explain how the Jews, who were not very numerous in Russia, were able to instigate a communist revolution (according to your theory) while they were not able to instigate one in Ukraine, Belarus, or Poland, where they made up a much larger percentage of the population. Have you considered the possibility that most Jews simply were not interested in communism?

Provisional government was overthrown by Bolsheviks, and we know who were in charge there.

You have presented no evidence that most Jews favored the Bolsheviks over the Provisional Government.

33 posted on 12/09/2001 5:59:29 PM PST by Inyokern
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To: GROUCHOTWO
Looks like Sharon forgot to tell GWB: "Gimme my spy now!"
34 posted on 12/09/2001 6:22:25 PM PST by CommiesOut
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To: CommiesOut
There is an anti-Semitic/Slavic conspiracy here in ref. to Ted Kaczynski propagated by certain MeAlwaysRight posters. It is worth to remember that his brother name was DAVID and his mother's maiden name certainly was not Kaczynski.
35 posted on 12/09/2001 10:40:20 PM PST by malarski
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To: CommiesOut; malarski
Odd thing...the above link to Getman's article. Getman mentions that the '70s raging Neo-Nazi from Chicago, Phil Collin, was really a Cohn whose father had been in Dachau. This is the one that pushed for KKK marches in Chicago suburbs.
36 posted on 12/10/2001 9:22:31 AM PST by GROUCHOTWO
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To: madrussian
Please note post #36.
37 posted on 12/10/2001 9:25:04 AM PST by GROUCHOTWO
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To: malarski
It is worth to remember that his brother name was DAVID and his mother's maiden name certainly was not Kaczynski.

I don't know her maiden name, but her first name was Wanda, if that helps.

38 posted on 12/10/2001 9:44:47 AM PST by Inyokern
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To: Inyokern
No, I meant not communist or communist sympathizers. National politics was a foreign concept to Jews in that era. The rabbis advised Jews not to become involved in the politics of a gentile nation.

National politics as full participants, maybe. National politics that can be perceived as self-defence and opposing their "opressors", I wouldn't be so sure. Besides, there is a huge gap between what some rabbis may profess somewhere, let alone that that teaching is open to interpretation what it really means, and real life.

Avoiding pogroms was the only constant motivating factor in the Jewish community of the Russian Empire. Very few Jews were interested in any radical revolution.

There must have been different notions of "radicality". American Jewish neocons are much more radical and agressive than traditional conservatives, for example. But to them, they are just normal and logical. Bolshevik revolution was "avoiding pogroms" and "taking some revenge" for some, I am sure.

History is often portrayed by the majority population in a way that scapegoats minorities for all problems.

It's a two-way street and the same can be said about minorities who often believe they are victims all around. I'd rather take an objective approach, where every side is assigned some blame. Wouldn't you? Or in other approach, either side is blameless and is simply acting in their own interests that may diverge. But that's not what Jewish supremacists have in mind, to them their tribe is beyond reproach, and "anti-semitism" is some universal illness that's guaranteed to exist everywhere just because "Jews are special and misunderstood".

You have yet to explain how the Jews, who were not very numerous in Russia, were able to instigate a communist revolution (according to your theory) while they were not able to instigate one in Ukraine, Belarus, or Poland, where they made up a much larger percentage of the population.

First portion of your question is more technical, whether a minority can affect the course of history in any major way. I already answered that question somewhere. As for the second part, it's a topic of separate discussion. As far as I know, Jewish kommies were active in those countries too, and we had a discussion on how kommies were cheered in Poland in 1939. Also, could local population be more hostile to the movements that were headed by Jews, whose tricks they were up to? Also, Jewish kommies did have some successe in Hungary and Germany.

Have you considered the possibility that most Jews simply were not interested in communism?

It's possible, since most is only more than 50%. And what does "not interested" mean? Does sympathetic with the goals or using it for tribal goals qualify as "interested"?

39 posted on 12/10/2001 11:34:07 AM PST by madrussian
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To: GROUCHOTWO
It's amusing that there are several Jewish posters on Sam Francis forum that are ranting and raving against blacks and hispanics. Well, they are being honest, that's all. LOL!

Unlike Inyokern, who diplomatically answered my question about how Jews regard Jesus, saying that he was a "charismatic preacher". What he doesn't say is what really counts. LOL!

40 posted on 12/10/2001 11:37:20 AM PST by madrussian
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To: madrussian
Honesty vs. diplomacy. At one time there wasn't such a divergence. Diplomacy was synonymous with tact, a genteel politeness. Diplomates with charged with using tact in dealing with difficult situations. Today it means lying through your teeth.

So inny says that his religion teaches Jesus was a charismatic leader. Does he give you official references for this?

P.S. Inny's statement that few Jews were communist must mean he is not from New York or that he is being 'diplomatic'.

41 posted on 12/10/2001 3:25:03 PM PST by GROUCHOTWO
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To: GROUCHOTWO
P.S. Inny's statement that few Jews were communist must mean he is not from New York or that he is being 'diplomatic'.

Or that he's bargaining furiously and employing that famous Jewish "answering question with a question" tactics and fuzzy logic. They should write a manual on how to fool people... oh wait, maybe they have already.

42 posted on 12/10/2001 3:33:47 PM PST by madrussian
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To: madrussian
And what does "not interested" mean? Does sympathetic with the goals or using it for tribal goals qualify as "interested"?

You can tell how people feel about a government by the way they vote with their feet. There were about 7 million Jews in the Russian Empire in 1917. By 1923, when the Soviet Union sealed the border against further emigration, there were only about 3 million Jews left. Most of the Jews who had lived in the Russian Empire chose not to live in the Soviet Union.

we had a discussion on how kommies were cheered in Poland in 1939.

No, it was not commies who were cheered, it was the Russian Army. And with good reason. Any Jew who got behind Russian lines and managed to stay there was likely to survive the war. 90% of the rest died. In hindsight, they were correct to cheer the Russian Army.

43 posted on 12/10/2001 5:30:01 PM PST by Inyokern
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To: madrussian
Unlike Inyokern, who diplomatically answered my question about how Jews regard Jesus, saying that he was a "charismatic preacher".

Do you perhaps have me mistaken for someone else? I don't remember that exchange. I have never called Jesus a "charismatic preacher," as far as I can recall.

44 posted on 12/10/2001 5:32:51 PM PST by Inyokern
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To: madrussian
I didn't realize that there was a new biography out on Hillary.
45 posted on 12/10/2001 5:56:34 PM PST by Rocky
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To: madrussian
Dern, you are clever!

BTW, just in case he snoops on your posts I hope you don't mind if I throw in a few little USA commie pops just for fun:
Martin Sobol,
Harry Magdoff,
Nathan Silvermaster,
Jacob Golos,
Gregory Kheifetz,
Abe Taubman,
Armand Hammer,
Abe Heller,
Maurice Heller,
Bella Gold,
Theodore Hall(Holtzberg),
Philip Jaffe,
Samiel Dickstein,
Borris Morris,
and Noel Field.
This is a very short list of the old timers. None of them are Mormons, I promise you.

46 posted on 12/10/2001 6:26:03 PM PST by GROUCHOTWO
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To: malarski; madrussian
Inyo, after working hard on Wayne Gacy (typical name from Czestochowa), twisted Theodore to Thaddeus to make a point.
He's almost as good as famous historian G. Will or sociologist Jan Gross.
Now he's lying on the other thread about Czechoslovakia again.
47 posted on 12/10/2001 6:57:18 PM PST by CommiesOut
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To: CommiesOut
Inyo, after working hard on Wayne Gacy (typical name from Czestochowa), twisted Theodore to Thaddeus to make a point.

Do you want me to prove that Gacy and Kaczynski are Polish? Do you really really want that?

48 posted on 12/10/2001 7:23:08 PM PST by Inyokern
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To: GROUCHOTWO
This is a very short list of the old timers.

Jewish Nobel Prize Winners for Science Polish Nobel Prize Winners for Science
Altman, Sidney Sklodowska-Curie, Maria
Axelrod, Julius
Baltimore, David
Barany, Robert
Benacerraf, Baruj
Berg, Paul
Bethe, Hans Albrecht
Bloch, Felix
Bloch, Konrad
Blumberg, Baruch S.
Bohr, Niels
Born, Max
Brown, Herbert C.
Calvin, Melvin
Chain, Sir Ernst Boris
Charpak, Georges
Cohen, Stanley
Cohen-Tannoudji, Claude
de Hevesy, George
Edelman, Gerald M.
Ehrlich, Paul
Einstein, Albert
Elion, Gertrude B.
Erlanger, Joseph
Feynman, Richard P.
Franck, James
Friedman, Jerome I.
Furchgott, Robert F.
Gabor, Dennis
Gell-Mann, Murray
Gilbert, Walter
Gilman, Alfred G.
Glaser, Donald A.
Glashow, Sheldon L.
Goldstein, Joseph L.
Haber, Fritz
Hauptman, Herbert A.
Hertz, Gustav
Hoffmann, Roald
Hofstadter, Robert
Jacob, Francois
Josephson, Brian D.
Kandel, Eric R.
Kapitsa, Pyotr Leonidovich
Karle, Jerome
Katz, Sir Bernard
Klug, Sir Aaron
Kohn, Walter
Kornberg, Arthur
Krebs, Sir Hans Adolf
Landau, Lev Davidovich
Landsteiner, Karl
Lederberg, Joshua
Lederman, Leon M.
Lee, David M.
Levi-Montalcini, Rita
Lipmann, Fritz Albert
Lippmann, Gabriel
Loewi, Otto
Luria, Salvador E.
Lwoff, Andre
Marcus, Rudolph A.
Mechnikov, Elie
Meyerhof, Otto Fritz
Michelson, Albert Abraham
Milstein, Cesar
Moissan, Henri
Mottelson, Ben Roy
Muller, Hermann Joseph
Nathans, Daniel
Nirenberg, Marshall W.
Osheroff, Douglas D.
Penzias, Arno A.
Perl, Martin L.
Perutz, Max Ferdinand
Prusiner, Stanley B.
Rabi, Isidor Isaac
Reichstein, Tadeus
Reines, Frederick
Richter, Burton
Rodbell, Martin
Schally, Andrew V.
Schwartz, Melvin
Schwinger, Julian
Segre, Emilio Gino
Stein, William Howard
Steinberger, Jack
Stern, Otto
Temin, Howard Martin
Varmus, Harold E.
von Baeyer, Johann
Waksman, Selman
Wald, George
Wallach, Otto
Warburg, Otto Heinrich
Weinberg, Steven
Willstatter, Richard Martin
Yalow, Rosalyn

49 posted on 12/10/2001 8:04:13 PM PST by Inyokern
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To: GROUCHOTWO; madrussian; malarski; Askel5; Zviadist; kristinn; Free the USA; struwwelpeter...
This is the one that pushed for KKK marches in Chicago suburbs.

Surprised?
Imagine: all commie positions taken, Soviet Union doesn't exist anymore, in other words--nowhere to go.
What can an ambitious person to do in order to get noticed?

Here's about one dude who virtually brought Washington, DC to a halt:
It was a beautiful Saturday, 08/07/99. DC Freepers got ready for a weekly duty. But here they were--Nazis. And the downtown looked like Kandahar: 1,426 Police Officers, SS, Black Helicopters, Strange Vehicles, Commies, American Labour Party, Socialist Workers, Shalom International of Miami, AJC, NAACP, FReepers, you name it...
Neo-Nazis bail out of their march
Metastasizing hate
Outnumbered neo-Nazi group cancels hate march
Pictures: 1 2 3 4 5

"I think the city ought to sue these people," Police Chief Charles Ramsey angrily declared as he stood in his riot helmet complaining that the city had just spent close to $1 million protecting the civil rights of a no-show troublemaker.
Cmon, Chief... what's wrong with a little hutzpa?
50 posted on 12/10/2001 8:23:36 PM PST by CommiesOut
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