Posted on 12/13/2001 10:02:59 AM PST by Brian Kopp DPM
So, if the Cathoalic church and the Pope are inflaible, and YOU believe in following EVERY tenent, can you tell me WHY you can now eat meat on Fridays now ? Mind , there is NOTHING in the Bible, that I ever could find, where Christ prohibitted the eating of any meat on Fridays. Neither, BTW, can I find, in the NT a prohibition against birth control. Oh, and while I'm at at it, the Roman Catholic church used to prohibit sexual relations for almost six months, spread out the year, due to certain holy days. Is this or is this NOT still in place ? If so, WHY ? There isn't ANYTHING in the Bible about that either.
You can lie, obfuscate, and condemn nonCatholics till the Second Coming; all that does is make others anti-Catholic, dear.
If you keep LYING about what Protestants believe, or how they are all going to brn in hell, because they aren't Catholic, I am going to start typng about the Nuns of Louden, and other crazies , who for YEARS populated the Roman Catholic church. Also, I'll list, as many as I can, the agan gods and godesse , whom the Catholic church turned into saints. It's YOUR choice ; keep bashing nonCatholics, or stop it.
It is possible you were being sarcastic, and I missed the sarcasm, but you stated you had not read HV. Accuse me of erroneous recall, or mistaken identity, but do not accuse me of lying, for such is to judge motives, and we must not do that.
Six years, at Holy Trinity Seminary in Irving
Well, I guess my recall ain't that bad. Must have been mistaken ID, or else you were lying above. But I would not accuse you of that.
where the author of this article now teaches.
I ate dinner with her Saturday night, with about 15 other doctors, in Ann Arbor Mich, where she is on a 2 year sabbatical, teaching at Ave Maria University and the major seminary there. She would beg to differ with you on HV, at least according to her talk on "Natural Law and Contraception" at the "Rethinking Reproductive Health" Catholic Medical Assiciation conference I attended there.
Does she have a degree in theology?
Did you read the quotes from the reformers that I posted above?
Protestant denominations may not have "prohibited" contraception, but they all taught at the level of their moral theology apparatus, that it was sinful. Furthermore, it was indeed preached from the pulpit that it was sinful, up until 1930. Maybe your individual church was quiet, but this was a universal Christian teaching.
On the other hand, protestant politicians did indeed "prohibit" both the sale of, and distribution of literature regarding, contraception.
This is NOT a difference of opinion. Please do not argue that it is, or that we are misrepresenting protestants. This is simply historical fact, and we have provided documentation of this fact above.
If you need more documentation, I will be happy to send you, free of charge, a book written by a protestant minister that lists many pages of quotes against contraception from protestant theologians, ministers, and preachers, from the reformation till the present time.
I teach that contraception is contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church, yes. I also teach that keeping the marital relationship open to children is one of the two primary ends of marriage.
Would appreciate a serious response.
CCC 2399 The regulation of births represents one of the aspects of responsible fatherhood and motherhood. Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization or contraception).
This kind of sweeping generalization (especially as it applies to married couples) is not backed up by any kind of data and, IMO, is overly simplistic.
People I know, especially Catholics, who use contraceptives would never THINK of having an abortion.
They use contraceptives because they've got five kids and three jobs and are mortgaged to the hilt and are trying to send all their kids to Catholic school.
It is precisely BECAUSE they'd never think of having an abortion that they use contraceptives.
Sorry to interject here where I don't belong. But I will give into temptation. Isn't the above inoperative, at present? I actually don't mind much who thinks I am going to hell, so long as I don't think I really deserve it. Egocentric? No doubt. Another egocentric view I have is the quiet satisfaction I take in the fact that actual practice regarding birth control largely hews to economic circumstance (except for some Muslim precincts), rather than theology. Theology and theologians simply don't seem to have much impact. Cheers.
The Moral Difference Between Contraception and Natural Family Planning
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Doesn't change the fact that they are committing mortal sin. You can dress it up any way you please, but it still boils down to being faithful and obedient to the Church's teaching. The ironic thing is, those elements you describe would precipitate the perfectly legitimate use of NFP, which is much more effective than artificial contraception, and has the added bonus of forcing couples into more conversation and communication. It also acts as a buffer for couples who could inadvertently slip into the sinful behavior of avoiding having children because of the desire to live a more opulent lifestyle -- each month the couple must sit down and communicate to decide, "Why aren't we having kids? Do we want more kids? Are we able to have more kids? Would it be wise? Are we being obedient to God in choosing NOT to have any more kids at this time, or are we being selfish?" Contraception robs a couple of that sort of communication -- or at the least, it has the distinct DISADVANTAGE in that it isn't built in to the process. True - I'm sure there are many Catholics who use art. birth control and have great communication on the Why's of their decision not to have more kids -- but I think , given the inescapable nature of art. birth control, it lends itself to a less-communicative relationship in that aspect.
It is a shame that so many Catholics knowingly or unknowingly commit this intrinsically evil act -- bringing upon their soul (even in the event that it's not a mortal sin because of culpability) untold damage and loss of Graces. And the bitter, sad irony is that NFP would be perfectly acceptable and licit in their situations.
The Church does not teach that. In fact, several decades ago, Fr. feeney, a Catholic priest in New Hampshire, was thrown out of the Catholic Church, literally excommunicated, for teaching that, at least the way you and Feeney mean it.
Vatican II in #16 says: "For they who without their own fault do not know of the Gospel of Christ and His Church, but yet seek God with sincere heart, and try, under the influence of grace, to carry out His will in practice, known to them through the dictate of conscience, can attain eternal salvation."
John Paul II in his Encyclical on the Missions in #10 says the same : "For such people [those who do not formally enter the Church, as in LG 16] salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them part of the Church." We underline the word "formally" to indicated that there may be something less than formal membership, which yet suffices for salvation. A similar thought is found in LG #14 which says "they are fully incorporated" who accept all its organization. . . . ." We will show presently that there can be a lesser, or substantial membership, which suffices for salvation.
On the other hand, while Catholicism definitely does not say they are all going to brn in hell, because they aren't Catholic, I have been told on free Republic that I AM going to hell just because I am Catholic.
WHERE IN THE NT, DOES CHRIIST PROHIBIT CONDOMS, DIAPHRAMS, SPONGES, SPERMACIDES, AND CERVICAL CAPS ?
The Roman Catholic church has made , and recently UNMADE saints. Some ancient saints WERE pagan gods and goddesses ! For example, there NEVER was a living person named Bacchus, Dionysus, Hycinthus,Narcissus, Nerius, or Achilles; but they WERE cannonized. What those men were, were minor pagan godlettes, mythological heros, and thoroughly PAGAN ! Pope Alexander I cannonized the ancient Greek , pagan god HERMES. That's it for now, but keep on lying, and I'll revel in pulling out some more of my favorite things. The selling of INDULGENCES, fake saints' bones, and the lovely Nuns of Louden, who were certifiable lunatics , but revered for eating vomit, going into obscene fits, during which they claimed to be having sexual intercourse with Jesus, and a whole host of other bizarre acts.
No one, Catholic or otherwise, can unknowingly commit a culpably evil act.
Contraception robs a couple of that sort of communication -- or at the least, it has the distinct DISADVANTAGE in that it isn't built in to the process.
Most Catholic couples read a statement like this and laugh.
With all due respect, contraception doesn't rob the couple of ANY sort of communication, in itself.
Either the relationship is open to children and to mutual love, or it's not. I know couples who use NFP and couples who use contraception, and there's not one bit of difference in the way they love each other or their children.
Most Catholics make up their mind on this subject on their own. The Church can't convince them that they're going to hell because they use contraceptives; they simply don't believe they are.
We're going to have to come up with something besides fear to convince them otherwise.
Addressing another point in your last post -- culpability doesn't have anything to do with the objective evil of any given action. An individual may or may not know that it is a mortal sin to do X -- but if they DO X, without knowing it's a mortal sin, they still do damage to their soul, because of the act's evil. If someone doesn't know that abortion is evil, and they commit abortion - the act is *STILL* evil. If someone uses contraception and they don't know it's evil, IT IS STILL EVIL.
YOU WROTE: Most Catholics make up their mind on this subject on their own.
I WRITE: Yes, I've heard of the ability of many so-called "Catholics" to formulate their own consciences, independent of the guidance of Christ's Church. It's pathetic.
YOU WROTE: With all due respect, contraception doesn't rob the couple of ANY sort of communication, in itself.
I WRITE: It doesn't actively ROB them of anything, true -- it's not an animate object. Guns don't kill people either. However, using contraception, UNLIKE NFP, can easily become a crutch whereby the couple slides out of active communication, further increasing their chances that they could slip into the practice of not being open to life out of selfish gluttony.
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Look, at the end of the day, I can tell your mind is already made up on the matter. All I can do is to encourage you to be obedient to the Church and teach the Church's teachings on faith and morals in good faith in this matter, namely that contraception, as the Catechism states, is an intrinsic evil, and should not be used by Catholics who desire to remain in a state of grace, and that it is a mortal sin that will, if unconfessed, damn the individual to Hell for eternity.
I think the key is to teach children that a sexual relationship is only between men and women within a marriage, that children are welcomed into this world with open arms. Contraception does fail, but if you can teach your children that actions have responsibility, abortion will not be the option they choose, choosing to have that child, and raising it within the proper framework of a marriage is the option.
And there are methods of birth control that I would never use, but that is my personal option when I get married. Thanks for posting the article, it is very thought-provoking.
on a thread several months ago, I made the statement that Catholicism "alone is the only worldwide institution that still relentlessly defends the constant and universal Judeo-Christian teaching on the inherent evil of contraception."
I was seriously upbraded by a Mormon who said the LDS still teaches contraception to be inherently sinful, and he provided the excerpts from your churches documents to prove it. I was quite surprised and chastened.
Has this teaching of the LDS been modified, or is there doctrinal disagreement within your church on the matter?
I've been told, by Catholics here, that I was going to burn in hell; so wlecome to the club .Yet, I have NEVER said that to anyone; here or in real life. : - )
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