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What Libertarianism Isn't
Lew Rockwell.com ^ | December 22nd 2001 | Edward Feser

Posted on 12/22/2001 8:53:08 AM PST by rob777

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To: PatrioticAmerican
Most in the RNC understand the principles of the Libertarians and agree 99% with them

Crack, porn and prostitution? Open borders? Abolishing public schools, roads and parks?

Horsefeathers.

101 posted on 12/22/2001 12:27:22 PM PST by Roscoe
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To: OWK
Not bad, I am looking for a single word...if you have one to extend, I will be in your debt. I have had doubts about "egalitarian" since Ruth Bader Ginsberg laid claim to the term.
102 posted on 12/22/2001 12:27:29 PM PST by Christian_Egalitarian
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To: Roscoe
In our free marketplace of ideas, Libertarianism, Communism and Socialism have all come up losers.

In the US free market of ideas, we speak the words of freedom and liberty, but the actions consistently descend towards communism and socialism. The vast majority of people have come to the point where they willingly seek the unearned, yearning to get something for nothing. Or, at least something that someone else must pay for.

103 posted on 12/22/2001 12:28:18 PM PST by Jolly Rodgers
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To: Roscoe
The Libertarian Party does not equal libertarian philosophy.

Besides, if you really think it has failed, why are you expending so much effort opposing it?

104 posted on 12/22/2001 12:28:30 PM PST by Celtjew Libertarian
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To: Roscoe
Crack, porn and prostitution? Open borders? Abolishing public schools, roads and parks?

Is this your summary of the Libertarian Platform?

105 posted on 12/22/2001 12:29:19 PM PST by Christian_Egalitarian
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To: OWK
So did human servitude

Slavery was abolished by the 13th Amendment. Some Libertarians argue that it should be legal to own human servants.

106 posted on 12/22/2001 12:30:39 PM PST by Roscoe
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To: rob777
Traditional morality has as its primary practical advantage the furtherance of long life, strong families, well raised children and happy domesticity. Left to ourselves, the survivors and prosperous tend to be those who live a life consistent with conventional morality.

With enough room for a little fun!!

107 posted on 12/22/2001 12:32:16 PM PST by muir_redwoods
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To: All
Apologies if I'm not posting correctly. I've been a lurker for many years but am intimidated by the speed and volume of the posts. I consider myself a libertarian. I've read the books (my favorite was The Bell Curve by Murray and Hernstein) but I keep hearing people like Geraldo and Bill Maher call themselves Libertarians. An earlier poster sited Einstein re: simplicity. The simplest definition I can posit is that the Left (liberals and social democrats) believe that government solves problems (ie, leads to Utopia) and that the Right (conservatives and libertarians) believe that government creates problems...the law of unintendend consequences!
108 posted on 12/22/2001 12:32:25 PM PST by Deb8
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To: Roscoe
"Crack, porn and prostitution? Open borders? Abolishing public schools, roads and parks? "

If that is your belief of the Libertarian stance, then forget I said "useful".

109 posted on 12/22/2001 12:32:31 PM PST by PatrioticAmerican
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To: Jolly Rodgers
I'm sure you wouldn't mind naming those "gaping logical holes/exceptions" that you so firmly declare exist. Right?

Government enforced child support, for one.

110 posted on 12/22/2001 12:32:33 PM PST by Christian_Egalitarian
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To: Roscoe
Public schools have existed since the dawn of our Republic, Libertarian ignorance of the matter notwithstanding.

Mandatory government funded and operated education may have existed in isolated cases in the early US, but it certainly was not the monopoly that it is today. Even if it were, it would not change the fact that it is a blatant failure and a gross violation of individual rights.

111 posted on 12/22/2001 12:32:34 PM PST by Jolly Rodgers
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To: Celtjew Libertarian
The Libertarian Party does not equal libertarian philosophy.

The title of this thread is "What Libertarianism Isn't".

112 posted on 12/22/2001 12:32:49 PM PST by Roscoe
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To: Roscoe
"Some Libertarians argue that it should be legal to own human servants."

Name one.

113 posted on 12/22/2001 12:33:24 PM PST by PatrioticAmerican
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To: Jolly Rodgers
Mandatory government funded and operated education may have existed in isolated cases in the early US, but it certainly was not the monopoly that it is today.

Where do you live? Plenty of private schools near me.

114 posted on 12/22/2001 12:33:59 PM PST by Roscoe
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To: Roscoe
As always .. you are a friggin' fruitcase.
115 posted on 12/22/2001 12:34:21 PM PST by Buckeroo
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To: PatrioticAmerican
See http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3aad218b5c77.htm
116 posted on 12/22/2001 12:35:41 PM PST by Roscoe
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To: Roscoe
Hey... nice effort at changing the subject.

But the fact remains, that public schools force people to pay for the advancement of ideas they do not condone or share.

That, is immoral.

To force a creationist Christian to contribute money to the teaching of evolution in a public school is immoral.

Likewise, to force a secular parent to contribute money to the teaching of creation in public schools is immoral.

The only moral solution to this problem, is to stop taking the money from parents, and allow them to purchase the education they DO approve of, on the free market.

It's called capitalism and liberty.

It works amazingly well.

117 posted on 12/22/2001 12:35:56 PM PST by OWK
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To: PatrioticAmerican
If that is your belief of the Libertarian stance

Read the platform.

118 posted on 12/22/2001 12:36:40 PM PST by Roscoe
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To: OWK
...capitalism and liberty. It works amazingly well.

Unlike Libertarianism.

119 posted on 12/22/2001 12:37:50 PM PST by Roscoe
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To: OWK
Agree with everything in your #117.
120 posted on 12/22/2001 12:37:55 PM PST by Christian_Egalitarian
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To: Christian_Egalitarian
Government enforced child support, for one.

Interesting. I don't recall seeing that in the Libertarian platform. I look forward to your sharing the reference.

121 posted on 12/22/2001 12:43:25 PM PST by Jolly Rodgers
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To: rob777
Bump for later reading.
122 posted on 12/22/2001 12:43:25 PM PST by Redcloak
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To: Roscoe
Where do you live? Plenty of private schools near me.

And every family that sends their kids to one of those private schools is still obligated by law to fund the public institutions. Furthermore, the curriculum of those private schools is still dictated by the government. The government maintains a coercive monopoly on the education business and some day we'll bust it wide open and effect a separation of school and state. Until then, our country will continue its descent into communism.

123 posted on 12/22/2001 12:46:12 PM PST by Jolly Rodgers
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To: Christian_Egalitarian
I offer that both most Libertarians and most Objectivists reach the same conclusions about social issues that social liberals do. Drugs, abortion...

There is equivalence by result.

Even if accurate, there is more to political belief than social issues.

But even with social issues, when the left and libertarians come to the same conclusion, it's often for completely different reasons.

Ask a leftist if, since they support legal recognition of gay marriage, they also support recognition of polyamorous (multi-partner) marriages. The majority I've dealt with go stark-raving angry. When it comes right down to it, leftists don't see gay marriage as about freedom to arrange one's life as one sees fit; they see it as overthrowing "patriarchy," "tradition," "the market," or whatever pet bogeyman they've latched on to.

Speaking for myself, I support equal legal recognition of traditional, gay, and polyamorous marriages. I believe that traditional marriage is the best arrangement for most people, but that there are exceptions. Even if there were no exceptions, it would still be a matter of arranging one's life as one see fits.

Where the left see certain things identified as "socially liberal" as a tool to some collectivist-utopian dream, the libertarian right come to those conclusions from the basis of individualism.

It's no wonder that most polyamorous households I know (I know four) are more to the political right than the nation as a whole.

Equivalence of result does not equal equivalence of reason. For that matter, the equivalence of result with regard to social issues, is an illusion. The goal of leftism (I refuse to call it liberalism) is that of the collective. The goal of libertarianism is the goal of individualism.

124 posted on 12/22/2001 12:46:58 PM PST by Celtjew Libertarian
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To: Jolly Rodgers
Government enforced child support, for one.

Do you oppose such enforcement on Libertarian grounds?

125 posted on 12/22/2001 12:50:58 PM PST by Christian_Egalitarian
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To: Roscoe
Celtjew Libertarian:
The Libertarian Party does not equal libertarian philosophy.

Roscoe:
The title of this thread is "What Libertarianism Isn't".

It's standard practice in English to capitalize all non-minor words in the title. Unless, you're one of those left-wing, post-modernist fruitcakes, who thinks that punctuation and grammar don't matter.

126 posted on 12/22/2001 12:51:15 PM PST by Celtjew Libertarian
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To: Christian_Egalitarian
Do you oppose such enforcement on Libertarian grounds?

Nice try, but you aren't turning this around. You made an accusation against Libertarians and I challenged you to support that accusation with evidence. Are you now confessing that you have no evidence and were simply using falsehoods to smear others? Or, are you going to stay on track and provide the evidence to support your assertion?

127 posted on 12/22/2001 1:05:04 PM PST by Jolly Rodgers
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To: Fast 1975
There's nothing "ad hominem" about calling a philosophy simplistic. It is a valid criticism, if the critic can back it up.

My criticism of Libertarianism as it is expounded today is that it is puerile. Adults who have some experience in the real world may identify with the ideals (I do) but recognize that sophomore dormitory BS-session theory is not the same as making something work in the cold unforgiving world of reality.

Beyond that, libertarianism lacks coherence today, and shows no sign of becoming a definable, understandable position in the near future.

128 posted on 12/22/2001 1:07:57 PM PST by hinckley buzzard
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To: Roscoe
Why not call your pal, Cultural Jihad over here? Let's get into a real discussion.
129 posted on 12/22/2001 1:10:08 PM PST by Buckeroo
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To: Jolly Rodgers
The failure to oppose a position is tantamount to support of that position.

Moreover, if I am wrong, tell me.

Does Libertarianism support government enforcement of child support, or not?

And if so, how is doing so supported by Libertarian philosophy?

130 posted on 12/22/2001 1:21:14 PM PST by Christian_Egalitarian
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To: rob777
It still comes down to the difference represented by two men, Edmund Burke vs. John Locke; between two revolutions the French and the American. Burke summed it up with this statement "Liberty without wisdom, and without virtue is folly, vice, and madness, without tuition or restraint." (Reflections on the Revolution in France, 1790.)

Libertarians are NOT conservative and to Christians who call themselves libertarians, I say you might want to rethink your views.

131 posted on 12/22/2001 1:27:39 PM PST by Mahone
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To: Mahone
Libertarians are NOT conservative and to Christians who call themselves libertarians....

So one can't be a conservative Christian and a Libertarian at the same time? If not, why not?

132 posted on 12/22/2001 1:30:21 PM PST by Christian_Egalitarian
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To: Christian_Egalitarian
The failure to oppose a position is tantamount to support of that position. Moreover, if I am wrong, tell me.

You are wrong.

Does Libertarianism support government enforcement of child support, or not? And if so, how is doing so supported by Libertarian philosophy?

You asserted that they did. The burden of proof is upon you to document your evidence. Either do so, or you've admitted that you told other than the truth.

133 posted on 12/22/2001 1:31:10 PM PST by Jolly Rodgers
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To: Jolly Rodgers
I asserted based upon conversations with self-identifying Libertarians. If you contend that the view they expressed is not representative of Libertarianism, so be it.
134 posted on 12/22/2001 1:34:49 PM PST by Christian_Egalitarian
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To: Roscoe;rob777
Libertarianism is the Edsel of the free marketplace of ideas.

I think it's more like a Ferrari.

Democrats: We hate Ferrari's. They're ugly and loud and they waste gas and all that unneccesary power and handling hurts the other drivers' self esteem. We like our equalitarian Fords. And we hate Chevrolets, even though the differences between modern Fords and Chevys are trifling once you get past the sheetmetal.

Republicans: There's something really appealing about Ferrari's, but we're afraid that if we get behind the wheel, we won't be able to handle all that power and we'll run into a telephone pole. And if it's not us, it'll be someone else, or their kid. Nope, Ferrari's are just too dangerous -- we'll stick to our Chevrolets, which at least are a lot better than those lame Fords the Democrats are driving. Never mind that the differences between modern Fords and Chevys are trifling once you get past the sheetmetal.

135 posted on 12/22/2001 1:35:47 PM PST by Yardstick
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To: Jolly Rodgers
As I have clarified the source, per request, perhaps in turn the question itself might be addressed:

"Does Libertarianism support government enforcement of child support, or not? And if so, how is doing so supported by Libertarian philosophy?"

136 posted on 12/22/2001 1:36:25 PM PST by Christian_Egalitarian
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To: Jolly Rodgers
Truth be told, I'm not quite sure if my position on "open borders" is entirely consistent with the Libertarian Party's position.

Does it naturally follow that someone's position on an issue should be consistent with that of the Libertarian political party in order to be concidered a libertarian position?

137 posted on 12/22/2001 1:36:31 PM PST by IASKTHEREFOREIAM
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To: Christian_Egalitarian
As I have clarified the source, per request, perhaps in turn the question itself might be addressed:

You've cited no source, unless you posted it to someone other than me, and I missed it. If so, please point me to it and we shall proceed. Otherwise, either answer, or demonstrate that your original assertion was false.

"Does Libertarianism support government enforcement of child support, or not? And if so, how is doing so supported by Libertarian philosophy?"

We'll address that after you document your earlier assertion.

138 posted on 12/22/2001 1:39:06 PM PST by Jolly Rodgers
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To: IASKTHEREFOREIAM
Does it naturally follow that someone's position on an issue should be consistent with that of the Libertarian political party in order to be concidered a libertarian position?

Well, I'm neither a libertarian, nor a member of the Libertarian Party, so that would be best answered by someone who self identifies as either, or both. That being said, I would think it probably that the party may on occasion take positions which run contrary to the philosophy. The history of the Democratic and Republican parties are full of such divergences which leads me to believe that the realm of politics exerts pressures which cause this to happen. (not that I think it is a good thing...)

139 posted on 12/22/2001 1:43:27 PM PST by Jolly Rodgers
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To: Jolly Rodgers
See #134. I can't cut and paste verbal conversations. I have identified the source of the perception of Libertarianism.
140 posted on 12/22/2001 1:50:19 PM PST by Christian_Egalitarian
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To: Christian_Egalitarian
I asserted based upon conversations with self-identifying Libertarians. If you contend that the view they expressed is not representative of Libertarianism, so be it.

Some unnamed, self-proclaimed Libertarian told you. And, even though you can't find any supporting evidence in the plethora of Libertarian Party materials, you assert it as fact? Heck, I once had a christian tell me that you couldn't go to heaven unless you handled deadly snakes and spoke in tongues. Would that qualify as enough evidence to smear the entire breadth of the christian church? I think not. Furthermore, I call into question your ability to accurately represent what you claim to have been told.

As regards child support enforcement by government; It certainly would be appropriate in many circumstances, and I doubt that you'll ever find a blanket rejection of it by the Libertarian Party. That being said, today's form of government involvement in that enterprise is a corrupted mess that violates the rights of all involved in too many cases.

141 posted on 12/22/2001 2:01:33 PM PST by Jolly Rodgers
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To: Jolly Rodgers
Whatever.
142 posted on 12/22/2001 2:10:40 PM PST by Christian_Egalitarian
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To: Christian_Egalitarian
Whatever.

Are you a woman, or do you just act like one on the internet?

143 posted on 12/22/2001 2:11:48 PM PST by Jolly Rodgers
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To: Jolly Rodgers
The government maintains a coercive monopoly on the education business and some day we'll bust it wide open

The 0.4 percenters are full of hot air.

144 posted on 12/22/2001 2:17:05 PM PST by Roscoe
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To: Yardstick
I think it's more like a Ferrari.

Up on cinderblocks stripped?

145 posted on 12/22/2001 2:20:02 PM PST by Roscoe
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To: Celtjew Libertarian
The little "l" dodge.
146 posted on 12/22/2001 2:22:36 PM PST by Roscoe
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To: Roscoe
Perhaps they are, but your manic compulsion to attack them demonstrates your fear that it is otherwise. Government education is a corrupt and failed enterprise that will one day be swept away to the dust bin of ugly history.
147 posted on 12/22/2001 2:24:17 PM PST by Jolly Rodgers
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To: Mahone
Libertarians are NOT conservative and to Christians who call themselves libertarians, I say you might want to rethink your views.

Might you be the one to review what you concider a Christian to be and also what you concider a libertarian to be? Perhaps you have an incorrect view of what one or both are?

148 posted on 12/22/2001 2:26:54 PM PST by IASKTHEREFOREIAM
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To: Jolly Rodgers
Words are cheap; Libertarianism is nothing but words.
149 posted on 12/22/2001 2:26:57 PM PST by Roscoe
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To: MadameAxe;f.Christian
The LP has a penguin (as a symbol)

The penguin is a noble. . .creature

You two can praise penguins all you want but there is a darker side to our fine feathered frauds. BBC article:

Penguins are turning to prostitution. But instead of doing it for money, Antarctic dolly-birds are turning tricks to get rocks off their menfolk.

Stones are essential for penguins to build their nests. A shortage has led to the unorthodox tactics. . .

"Stones are the valuable currency in penguin terms," said Dr Fiona Hunter, a researcher in the Zoology Department at Cambridge University, who has spent five years observing the birds' mating patterns. . .

On some occasions the prostitute penguins trick the males. They carry out the elaborate courtship ritual, which usually leads to mating.

Having bagged their stone, they would then run off. . . The most stones Dr Hunter saw a single female taking was 62, although she said she suspects her final total was higher. . .
Full sordid story here

No evidence of Penguins smoking dope. Yet.

150 posted on 12/22/2001 2:40:28 PM PST by LarryLied
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