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What Libertarianism Isn't
Lew Rockwell.com ^ | December 22nd 2001 | Edward Feser

Posted on 12/22/2001 8:53:08 AM PST by rob777

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To: OWK
Like their cousin Libertarianism, Communism and Socialism are failures.

Libertarianism is the Edsel of the free marketplace of ideas.

51 posted on 12/22/2001 11:45:55 AM PST by Roscoe
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To: PatrioticAmerican
It seems Republicans are all for controlling personal behavior and Democraps are for controlling evything else.

The Democrats are controlling personal behavior than the Republicans are. With the Democrats, they call their social engineering "targeted tax breaks", or "tolerance education"...it's not a short list. Liberals, as exemplified by the Democrats, are totalitarian by nature.

52 posted on 12/22/2001 11:46:15 AM PST by Christian_Egalitarian
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To: tpaine
You agree that prohibitions are useless, yet you go on to say:

No, I said that prohibitions against easily produced substances which also cause relatively little harm in the grand scheme of things aren't practical or necessary.

Neither plutonium nor most hard drugs can be produced by their individual end-consumers, thus prohibiting them is a lot more practical. They are also MUCH more dangerous than things like marijuana or alcohol, thus justifying an exception to basic libertarian principles. A few hard drugs, such as meth, are pretty easy to produce and still extremely harmful, but the producers are not generally significant users (sort of self-regulating -- if one becomes a heavy user, one will shortly lose the capacity to produce). Most importantly, enforcement of laws against these more dangerous substances can be effective by focusing primarily on people who are producing and selling the substances for profit. With things like marijuana and alcohol, taking out the commercial producers and sellers simply results in most of the users taking up home production, therefore the prohibition accomplishes virtually nothing, unless we start to allow random searches of private homes.

53 posted on 12/22/2001 11:47:20 AM PST by GovernmentShrinker
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To: OWK
"They give away OUR money like it was candy. And they think they're doing something noble." -- OWK

Don't worry about a thing. Congress just voted a 5% pay raise for themselves. They "feel" they deserve it as "they" serve the American interest thwarting the Constitution.

54 posted on 12/22/2001 11:47:22 AM PST by Buckeroo
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To: Roscoe
Libertarianism is the Edsel of the free marketplace of ideas.

How so?

And why did this Edsel condition come about?

55 posted on 12/22/2001 11:47:41 AM PST by Christian_Egalitarian
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To: Roscoe
"The product has failed in the marketplace of ideas. "

And that means that it is a bad product or an ignorant consumer base?

56 posted on 12/22/2001 11:49:02 AM PST by PatrioticAmerican
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To: GovernmentShrinker
"No one wants to be the victim of robbery, fraud, assault, murder, etc. Thus if it is taken as a given that the state must treat all citizens equally, there is unanimous support for legal prohibition of, and punishment for these offenses. While the prohibitions are incorporated into virtually all religion's teachings, that is because they really are universal principles."



The principles are universal, but their application most certainly is not. Furthermore, they are universal only in the sense that they apply to all of us by virtue of our common humanity. They are a LONG way from being universally recognized, from a historical perspective. From the ancient Pagans, to the Greek Sophists, to Machavelli, to Nietsche, there have always been those who believed that society should be run on the principle of "survival of the fittest", or "might makes right". In fact, during most of human history, it was not "treated as a given" at all, that "the state must treat all citizens equally". This is a relatively recent phenomenon that stems, to a large part, from the Judeo-Christian understanding of an individual human's dignity and Free Will.
57 posted on 12/22/2001 11:49:17 AM PST by rob777
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To: GovernmentShrinker
The general perception of libertarianism is that it grounds "prohibit nothing" in philosophy, but then fails to adequately justify the "exceptions" on the grounds of libertarian philosophy, as opposed to on pragmatic grounds.
58 posted on 12/22/2001 11:49:56 AM PST by Christian_Egalitarian
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To: Christian_Egalitarian
How so?

Check the market share. 0.4% and falling.

59 posted on 12/22/2001 11:50:04 AM PST by Roscoe
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To: Christian_Egalitarian
The Republicans have created and participate with as much social engineering as anyone. No congress critter is immune from that label.
60 posted on 12/22/2001 11:50:13 AM PST by PatrioticAmerican
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To: Buckeroo
<< "Proof: Consider the size of the Libertarian Party. QED." -- gulliver Yup ... we are pretty damned small as a contemporary political party. But keep in mind, way back in America's beginning, whicj created the Revolution: there were few patriots, as well.>>

And we all know that the majority is always right.

61 posted on 12/22/2001 11:50:55 AM PST by Lchris
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To: PatrioticAmerican
The more consumers know about the product, the less they like it
62 posted on 12/22/2001 11:51:03 AM PST by Roscoe
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To: Fast 1975
School prayer is the biggest example, since tax dollars forced to pay for education, everyone wants their agenda in the curriculum. In privitization, Christians can support their schools, without the support of non-christians. And those few who are offended by religion in education- can support their own school- or school themselves at home.

You'd think that your point would be self-evident, with no need for further explanation, wouldn't you?

Yet I have read where libertarians would be against this, and I cannot understand why.

Your scenario provides fairness for all points of view.

63 posted on 12/22/2001 11:51:09 AM PST by rdb3
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To: Jolly Rodgers
But libertarianism offers Liberty and personal sovereignty only where Libertarians say, with gaping logical holes/exceptions justified by pragmatism.
64 posted on 12/22/2001 11:52:44 AM PST by Christian_Egalitarian
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To: Roscoe
Like their cousin Libertarianism, Communism and Socialism are failures. Libertarianism is the Edsel of the free marketplace of ideas.

Whoooaaaa.... Now hold on a minute there.

Now I know nobody's ever accused you of being rational, but you suggested that Libertarian philosophy has "failed in the marketplace of ideas", because of the relatively few people who support it.

But when confronted with the relatively large number of supporters for communist and socialist systems around the world, you say that they too are "failures in the marketplace of ideas".

You can't have it both ways Roscoe.

65 posted on 12/22/2001 11:54:15 AM PST by OWK
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To: OWK
Egalitarianism = dehumanizing slavery

Under what possible interpretation of egalitarianism?

66 posted on 12/22/2001 11:54:33 AM PST by Christian_Egalitarian
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To: John R. (Bob) Locke;JMJ333;proud2bRC;MHGinTN
I respect their right to decide what is right for them, so long as it doesn't interfere with my right (or the right of anyone else) to do the same.

There are always conflicting rights, and any judgement of which should predominate in a given conflict is the critical factor in applying this principle.

The judgement of "which should predominate" by Libertarians often comes out with a result which echoes social liberalism.

Case in point: abortion.

67 posted on 12/22/2001 11:58:50 AM PST by Christian_Egalitarian
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To: Christian_Egalitarian
Pro-life libertarian here.
68 posted on 12/22/2001 12:00:18 PM PST by OWK
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To: PatrioticAmerican
"Now, go ahead and show your fear and ignorance and claim that Libertarians are just anarchists."



I think that you are missing my point, as I was making the claim that most Libertarians are NOT anarchists. (BTW, in principle I have no problem with those who follow Rothbard and advocate a stateless society) The point which I was making is that minarchist libertarians, the majority, do want the state to uphold morality in a VERY limited sphere. I consider the non-initiation of force principle to be a moral principle that libertarians wish to see the state enforce.
69 posted on 12/22/2001 12:01:13 PM PST by rob777
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To: GovernmentShrinker
What do you think of the idea that an intact family with one man, one woman and kids is absolutely the best means for raising kids to be productive contributing members of society; therefore the State has a legitimate incentive to promote traditional marriage as being of great benefit to all members of society and to the future of society?
70 posted on 12/22/2001 12:02:18 PM PST by Libertarianize the GOP
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To: OWK
Pro-life libertarian here.

And I respect that 100%.

Yet, surely you've heard Libertarianism used to justify abortion? As a pro-life Libertarian, what do you say to that argument?

71 posted on 12/22/2001 12:02:39 PM PST by Christian_Egalitarian
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To: Christian_Egalitarian
Under what possible interpretation of egalitarianism?

Any, and all.

Egalitarianism affirms equality of economic status.

Which is of course the most horrfic of collectivistic evils.

72 posted on 12/22/2001 12:04:03 PM PST by OWK
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To: OWK
In our free marketplace of ideas, Libertarianism, Communism and Socialism have all come up losers.
73 posted on 12/22/2001 12:04:04 PM PST by Roscoe
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To: rob777
This article very persuasively shows that libertarianism does not imply "cultural libertarianism," which is objectionable to many conservatives. Yet it fails to examine the other side of the issue --namely, that many conservatives, especially those grounded in religious principles, believe they are justified in forcing others to conform to their definition of morality. Of course, libertarianism can encompass everything from cultural hedonism to ultra-traditional conservatism to everything in between. The problem is, cultural conservatives, almost by definition, are not so "liberal" in allowing others the same freedom. This doesn't mean that libertarians cannot cooperate with conservatives on certain issues (as they can with liberals); but it does limit the possibilities for fusion.
74 posted on 12/22/2001 12:04:06 PM PST by Lchris
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To: Libertarianize the GOP
What do you think of the idea that an intact family with one man, one woman and kids is absolutely the best means for raising kids to be productive contributing members of society; therefore the State has a legitimate incentive to promote traditional marriage as being of great benefit to all members of society and to the future of society?

I agree with that premise,and would add this: nothing the government does lacks a social-engineering focus, one way or the other.

75 posted on 12/22/2001 12:04:31 PM PST by Christian_Egalitarian
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Comment #76 Removed by Moderator

To: Roscoe
In our free marketplace of ideas, Libertarianism, Communism and Socialism have all come up losers.

You mean here?

In the United States?

Maybe you haven't been paying attention, but socialism has been the big winner over the last half-decade, and gets more popular with each passing year. It is the stock-in-trade of republicans and democrats alike.

77 posted on 12/22/2001 12:06:09 PM PST by OWK
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To: NAMMARINE
The political party, "Libertarian" is about the foundation of our nation. There is no change.
78 posted on 12/22/2001 12:06:47 PM PST by Buckeroo
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To: Christian_Egalitarian
Yet, surely you've heard Libertarianism used to justify abortion? As a pro-life Libertarian, what do you say to that argument?

A life is a life.

79 posted on 12/22/2001 12:07:29 PM PST by OWK
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To: OWK
The "abolish all public schools" whackos might think so.
80 posted on 12/22/2001 12:09:03 PM PST by Roscoe
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To: OWK
Egalitarianism affirms equality of economic status. Which is of course the most horrfic of collectivistic evils.

If Egalitarianism did indeed affirm equality of economic status, we would be in concurrence about it's moral standing.

However,

a belief in human equality especially with respect to social, political, and economic rights and privileges ---Merriam-Webster Dictionary

could be read as equality of opportunity, or as equality of results. If the first, then it is a good thing. It is the first which is the case.

81 posted on 12/22/2001 12:09:55 PM PST by Christian_Egalitarian
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To: Roscoe
Why do you think government should control education? Is this concept within our American Constitution or did *you* just make all this up?
82 posted on 12/22/2001 12:13:18 PM PST by Buckeroo
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To: OWK
Yet, many Libertarians use the "all persons born or naturalized" line (13th Amendment) to contend that under Libertarianism, there is no Constitutional protection for citizens-prenatal.

How would you rebut this argument?

83 posted on 12/22/2001 12:13:25 PM PST by Christian_Egalitarian
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To: Christian_Egalitarian
<< Libertarianism = Objectivism = Psuedointellectualized Liberalism >>

This post shows a complete ignorance of what any of the above words mean.

84 posted on 12/22/2001 12:14:02 PM PST by Lchris
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To: Buckeroo
Public schools have existed since the dawn of our Republic, Libertarian ignorance of the matter notwithstanding.
85 posted on 12/22/2001 12:15:32 PM PST by Roscoe
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To: Roscoe
"The more consumers know about the product, the less they like it"

Not from where I stand. People who understand the principles of liberty and freedom have been moving away from the DNC and RNC, and parties at all, actually. You seem to be paying attention to the kooks of the party. I guess we could limit our understanding of the RNC by paying attention only to the nuts. Maybe Jerry Falwell will be your new poster boy? How about Timmy McVeigh? Wasn't he a pubbie? Maybe only kooks of the RNC should get any attention and all pubbies should be judged as them?

86 posted on 12/22/2001 12:15:52 PM PST by PatrioticAmerican
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To: PatrioticAmerican
You seem to be paying attention to the kooks of the party.

What else is there?

87 posted on 12/22/2001 12:17:39 PM PST by Roscoe
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To: Christian_Egalitarian
egalitarian adj : favoring social equality; "a classless society" [syn: classless] n : a person who believes in the equality of all people

Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University

88 posted on 12/22/2001 12:18:26 PM PST by OWK
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To: Christian_Egalitarian
egalitarianism n : the doctrine of the equality of mankind and the desirability of political and economic and social equality [syn: equalitarianism]

Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University

Sorry... but egalitarianism is collectivism.

89 posted on 12/22/2001 12:20:13 PM PST by OWK
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To: PatrioticAmerican
The Republicans have created and participate with as much social engineering as anyone. No congress critter is immune from that label.

True. I simply contend that the absence of a given government policy or action is as much a statement of social ideology as the presence of the same would be.

For example, the anti-marriage crowd, Gloria Steinem et al, oppose the fast-tracking of the elimination of the "marriage penalty" in the tax code. Fast tracking it would be an action reflecting a social ideology; same goes for advocating the absence of that action.

Other Libertarians seem to feel that the absence of an action is always nonideological: this perspective. I contend.

90 posted on 12/22/2001 12:20:41 PM PST by Christian_Egalitarian
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To: Roscoe
I agree about local schools in in America; yes, American education has always been taught at the local level allowing Americans direct influence about subject matter as well as metods of approch to the delivery of information.

But you don't agree. You think that some magic f***ing science by government may promote more BS. Don't worry, you pay for your BS with taxes.

91 posted on 12/22/2001 12:22:01 PM PST by Buckeroo
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To: OWK
Would you suggest a word meaning "one who advocates equal opportunity"?
92 posted on 12/22/2001 12:22:04 PM PST by Christian_Egalitarian
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To: Roscoe
Public schools have existed since the dawn of our Republic

So did human servitude, and other violations of human rights.

That didn't make them morally justifiable then, and it doesn't now.

93 posted on 12/22/2001 12:22:13 PM PST by OWK
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To: Roscoe
Well, your fear and ignorance is certainly showing. I guess we could all ask, "For the RNC, what else is there but bible thumpers, socialists who tax and spend, tyrants, and politicians?" Of course, we know the diff. You are certainly an exception to the RNC and not the rule. Most in the RNC understand the principles of the Libertarians and agree 99% with them, but choose to stay in the RNC as it has power that they can use to restore liberties. You seem to think that their stance is a vote of confidence in your personal beliefs. Nothing could be further from the truth. You are a useful idiot.
94 posted on 12/22/2001 12:22:27 PM PST by PatrioticAmerican
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To: Buckeroo
I agree about local schools in in America

Libertarians don't. Read the platform.

95 posted on 12/22/2001 12:23:39 PM PST by Roscoe
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To: Christian_Egalitarian
But libertarianism offers Liberty and personal sovereignty only where Libertarians say, with gaping logical holes/exceptions justified by pragmatism.

I'm sure you wouldn't mind naming those "gaping logical holes/exceptions" that you so firmly declare exist. Right?

96 posted on 12/22/2001 12:25:04 PM PST by Jolly Rodgers
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To: Christian_Egalitarian
Would you suggest a word meaning "one who advocates equal opportunity"?

I should say libertarian just for the smiles... but how about....

Self-determinist.

or "Rights advocate"...

97 posted on 12/22/2001 12:25:29 PM PST by OWK
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To: Lchris
I offer that both most Libertarians and most Objectivists reach the same conclusions about social issues that social liberals do. Drugs, abortion...

There is equivalence by result.

98 posted on 12/22/2001 12:25:30 PM PST by Christian_Egalitarian
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To: Christian_Egalitarian
"Other Libertarians seem to feel that the absence of an action is always nonideological: this perspective. I contend."

To some degree that is a true statement. Any thinking person realizes that no action can be action of consequence. The Libertarian party has suffered from allowing a few morons to taint it, but the guiding principles hold true. Many "conservatives" value the very liberties and freedoms that the Libertarian party espouses. It is my opinion that it is becoming a wide spread belief that the RNC is not the party that desires liberty, but, rather, enough liberty to be tolerable to the powers that be.

99 posted on 12/22/2001 12:26:22 PM PST by PatrioticAmerican
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To: Lchris
"And we all know that the majority is always right." Lchris

Yep. More twit expressions about how "GOOD" the government is. Your point is well stated.

100 posted on 12/22/2001 12:26:47 PM PST by Buckeroo
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