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FBI, Pentagon Quiz Microsoft on XP
dailynews.yahoo.com ^

Posted on 12/23/2001 6:55:43 AM PST by TaRaRaBoomDeAyGoreLostToday!

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To: Brad C.
Many Windows apps are effected.XP and ME are the highest risk see posts 7 & 8

Someone tried to hack me at 7PM tonight I know cause Norton told me so.Now...being a prior Mac user I am not used to using anti-virus/hack job protection programs so this should not be a prerequisite to their flawed product, this is a weak argument.

201 posted on 12/23/2001 5:13:22 PM PST by TaRaRaBoomDeAyGoreLostToday!
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To: verboten
Pardon me while I laugh at the notion of the FBI lecturing on security vulnerability.

For real.

202 posted on 12/23/2001 5:13:41 PM PST by Jorge
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To: itsahoot
Stop bragging.

The difference in Mac's N piece a crap (PC's)is Apples N rotten oranges.

203 posted on 12/23/2001 5:16:03 PM PST by TaRaRaBoomDeAyGoreLostToday!
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To: TaRaRaBoomDeAyGoreLostToday!
I use the Zone Alarm software from Gibson Research, which also allows me to trace back the link trying to hack into my machine. It's nice software. That said, I will repeat something I posted earlier. I am moving over to a version of Linux, I don't like having to buy a new upgrade every year for the operating system or for the Office package. I have given MS enough of my money.
204 posted on 12/23/2001 5:19:26 PM PST by Brad C.
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To: Common Tator
A person with a crowbar can break into your house or car. Doesn't that make your house and car defective?

With a vehicle, building, or safe, there is a certain level of security that's expected. If I buy a $50 security cabinet, I should not be surprised if someone with a crowbar can force it open readily. A $2,000 safe, however, should require an attacker to expend a little more effort. A $2,000 safe which could be opened by tapping the right spot three times with a screwdriver would rightly be regarded as defective.

I can destroy a frame house with gasoline and a match does that not make the house defective?

Buildings are required to meet certain fire-resistance standards. These standards generally specify the rate at which fires spread (and are designed to ensure that occupants escape). If dropping a lit cigarette on the floor of a structure would result in the entire structure being engulfed in flames within 15 seconds, the structure would be rightly considered defective.

If drunk runs into your car and it kills you does that make your car defective?

If your car and the drunk's were if comparable weight and both were travelling at 25mph or less, probably yes. Vehicles have certain specs for what types of crashes are supposed to be survivable. Vehicles which cannot protect their occupants in such crashes may be rightly regarded as defective.

Microsoft advertised their product as being "secure". Their product is in reality no more secure than a safe which will open for someone who taps the right spot with a screwdriver. As such, it would rightly be regarded as defective.

205 posted on 12/23/2001 5:19:49 PM PST by supercat
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To: Brad C.
Also See POST #14
206 posted on 12/23/2001 5:19:57 PM PST by TaRaRaBoomDeAyGoreLostToday!
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To: tje
All software is buggy. All software is shipped with known
problems.

Bill Gates before Windows 2000. We do not release software
with bugs, you must not know how to use it.

After

To the federal Judge..You must let me release this software
it fixes over 6000 bugs.

207 posted on 12/23/2001 5:24:29 PM PST by itsahoot
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To: Brad C.
Don't you just love a federal law enforcement agency cramming down their concepts of laizze faire?
208 posted on 12/23/2001 5:25:39 PM PST by Buckeroo
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To: Moridin
Bugs are a given with software.

Can a company deliberately with-hold a known defect in a product?

209 posted on 12/23/2001 5:30:15 PM PST by Dominic Harr
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To: All
This is not about *buggy* software, per se.

This is about a company that *knew* their product had a serious defect, and they with-held that information from their customers purely to avoid losing sales.

That is *illegal*!!!!!!!!!

How did MS get to be above the law?

210 posted on 12/23/2001 5:33:05 PM PST by Dominic Harr
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To: supercat
If this person spends $400 on this piece of software, takes it home, goes to install it, and discovers that the license forbids such installation, what is he supposed to do?

He is supposed to take it back to where he bought it and get a refund. This may be easier said than done. If the store balks, the store manager should read the applicable clause of the EULA: YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS EULA BY INSTALLING, COPYING, OR OTHERWISE USING THE PRODUCT. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT INSTALL OR USE THE PRODUCT; YOU MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND.

In order to be "allowed" to sell the product, the store must agree with the manufacturer to take returns. This is usually the way it works. If the store still doesn't want to play ball, then you take it up their management chain. When you reach the end of the chain, there's always the FTC.

Some fella in Oz actually got a refund for OEM-installed MS software from Toshiba, but it wasn't easy.

211 posted on 12/23/2001 6:06:21 PM PST by TechJunkYard
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To: Balding_Eagle
so your machine downloaded the patch with out your knowledge, and you were notified after the fact ???

Thanks, but no thanks. That does'nt sound to secure to me.

212 posted on 12/23/2001 6:08:03 PM PST by Leper Messiah
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To: TechJunkYard
This is about a company that *knew* their product had a serious defect, and they with-held that information from their customers purely to avoid losing sales.

I may have found my sentence.

Can you see any flaws with this?

213 posted on 12/23/2001 6:18:22 PM PST by Dominic Harr
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To: Dominic Harr
Legally, a 'product defect' is significant if it would affect the decision to buy

I'm not a lawyer, are you? But you missed my point, I don't even think it qualifies as a 'defect'...

Legally, if you are a lawyer, who gets to define a software aberration as a defect? And lets go futher; Why is this unexploited susceptibility in the UPNP deemed a 'defect' and Outlook, probably the single most exploited virus transport mechanism yet in place, not?

I've yet to see an explaination as to why this even can be defined as a defect, much less one that MS should be held more accountable for than anything else they've ever shipped.

All in all, Microsoft's behaviour is very much because it is a monopoly. They have no real competition and, we as users, have no real choice.
214 posted on 12/23/2001 6:21:21 PM PST by tje
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To: tje
Legally, if you are a lawyer, who gets to define a software aberration as a defect?

No, better than that -- I'm a software developer who has to obey these laws.

The law says, "A merchant is obligated under the law to disclose any fact, the disclosure of which may have influenced the buyer not to enter into the transaction to start with."

And common sense does, too.

If MS had informed it's customers that XP allowed outside people to take contol of their machine, it would have influenced their decision to buy.

Therefore they defrauded those customers to increase sales of XP.

215 posted on 12/23/2001 6:27:25 PM PST by Dominic Harr
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To: Dominic Harr
sales / prestige / PR. That about covers it all.

These folks don't want you to know what goes on under the covers. That automatic download deal appears to have surprised a lot of XP users... hmmm?

216 posted on 12/23/2001 6:34:12 PM PST by TechJunkYard
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To: TechJunkYard
That automatic download deal appears to have surprised a lot of XP users... hmmm?

Y'know, I'm torn on that one. It's a nice idea, automatic updates.

But it also allows the possibility of a company doing things you *don't* want.

If it ran in a 'sandbox' mode, like a Java applet, where it couldn't do anything to the hard drive without permission first -- then I think it would be a great feature.

But *unknown*?

No, I don't think so.

217 posted on 12/23/2001 6:39:24 PM PST by Dominic Harr
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To: Dominic Harr
You know Dominic you've got quite a case there. I recommend you contact a lawyer and start a class action suit against MS.

Maybe you'll do better convincing a judge and jury of your argument. But if you argument was boat, I wouldn't sail in it.
218 posted on 12/23/2001 6:39:47 PM PST by tje
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To: Dominic Harr
RedHat's up2date utility is similar, where you register a system profile and they advise you via e-mail when an update becomes available.

The difference is that you decide whether you need/want the update (I uninstalled that RPM last month!) and you initiate the download at your convenience.

219 posted on 12/23/2001 6:46:20 PM PST by TechJunkYard
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To: tje
You know Dominic you've got quite a case there. I recommend you contact a lawyer and start a class action suit against MS.

Boy do you misunderstand my motives.

I do development for a living.

I have to deal with this debate every day. What's important is for me to have the 'right' take on it. And I have to be able to explain that take in one or two quick sentences.

I realize I'll never convince most people here . . . they're emotionally/financially tied to MS in a way that wouldn't allow them to face the truth. In the same way that Clintonistas can't admit the simplest, most obvious lawbreaking by MS.

But this is just 'practice'. The real fight over tech takes place in corporate meetings, if you get my drift. Please don't get me wrong, but nothing of consequence is likely to happen here.

220 posted on 12/23/2001 6:47:30 PM PST by Dominic Harr
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