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"Death of the West" -- Echoes from the Third Reich?

Posted on 01/04/2002 5:02:25 AM PST by Who is George Salt?

Former presidential candidate Pat Buchanan has recently garnered alot of press attention for his upcoming book, The Death of the West: How Dying Populations and Immigrant Invasions Imperil Our Country and Civilization (Thomas Dunne Books/St. Martin's Press, $25.95). In a nutshell, PJB claims that low birthrates are decimating the population of almost every European country; that by 2050, only one-tenth of the world's population (America included) will be of European descent; and the unchecked influx of immigrants into America, legal and otherwise, is gradually handing the nation over to insurgents who come to force their foreign values on us rather than accepting ours.

Others have pointed out the similarities between Buchanan's "dying West" and themes from Oswald Spengler's Decline of the West. I vaguely remembered something else, so I went to the Calvin College website and searched their most excellent Nazi and East German Propaganda Archive, and found the text of a speech delivered by Dr. Walter Gross, the head of the Nazi Party's Office of Racial Policy. He was speaking to a women's meeting at the Gau Party Rally in Cologne on 13 October 1934. The parallels between Buchanan's thesis and Nazi racial policy are unchanny. See for yourself:

National Socialist Racial Policy:

A Speech to German Women

My Dear German Women and Girls!

When Germans come together today to discuss the things that concern us both as individuals and as a nation, it is a solemn occasion, whether we wish it to be or not. During the political struggles of the past, we could speak of party programs or of civilization without any involvement of our soul. Now we have forgotten how to approach an issue merely with our understanding, merely with our mouth, merely with our heart. We have become whole people once again. When we speak with others, we do so with our full being.

That is what made the movement strong, and great, and powerful from its first days. It is also that which the enemy on this side of the border and the other cannot understand, and which it hates with deadly strength. As this great and beautiful people's movement began, so too began a hard and bitter struggle between enemy and German forces, between an old world that is really long dead and buried, and the new world that is struggling to reach the light through us. This struggle has been going on in people's hearts and souls for years, and is nowhere near its end.

The world finds it difficult to understand that which is at the center of our endeavors: the value of blood and race.

Our enemies first laughed in pity, then in hatred as we spoke of it.

Let us speak of what we National Socialists mean by that so that it will become clear why the German woman may be even more concerned about these matters than the man, his state, and his fighting organization can be.

There was a time in the past when we were untrue, untrue in the deepest sense. We were untrue not to other people, or parties, or states, or kings, but untrue to something far greater, untrue to the laws of life. As long as the world exists, as long as life grows, flourishes and perishes, so long will this life have the urge to live on into the future and win new territory. Whether plant or animal or man--as we, or I, or you: wherever there is life, it has the longing to bring forth new life.

It should be unnecessary to speak of such things. We speak of them only because for a few decades a crazy era ignored, blasphemed and mocked these greatest, most beautiful and purest dreams of life. This was an age that made the idol of money supreme and said: "The world should be governed not be what serves life, rather by what some fool of an accountant decides is best." We know the results. The great laws of life were evaluated according to money sacks and checkbooks.

When we think back on our parents, grandparents and great grandparents, there were many children in the house. It may have been crowded and hard financially, but we were happy, perhaps because there were so many of us in so large a family.

But the time came when people said: "As man or woman, as parents or teachers of leaders, you have the duty to show the people the way to a better future." That better future, people thought, could only be a richer future, a future in which the individual had more money. And when they were asked where this money would come from, a false teaching arose in the last century: "The fewer people there are, the more an individual child can inherit from his parents." He who loves his children and wishes a prosperous future for his nation should therefore see to it that Germany's population is small, and that only a few children continue the family after he is gone.

That was the terrible teaching of birth control, which Marxism preached and the bourgeois followed. No one dared stand against it. That was the doctrine that made us what we are today:

a dying people,

in which fewer children are born each year, in which today more people die each year than are born.

This all was supposed to lead to a happy future. It understood happiness only in terms of possessions. It was therefore inherently false. But even in its own terms it was false, for it forgot something:

When a people begins to die, when a people no longer obeys the laws of life, which a people values money more than its existence and posterity, this people is on the path to disaster, both historically and politically.

Within a few decades it will be dead,

oppressed by other peoples who are stronger,

closer to life, and who follow life's laws better than we.

If present trends continue, by the end of the century Germany will be a nation with only 40-50 million inhabitants, and we know that on our borders other peoples are growing quickly and strongly.

Sooner or later, these other peoples will come in conflict with a shrinking and dying German people, and the result of the supposed doctrine of happiness will be a hard and bitter national death for our children.

Those who believed that they can give their children a happy and peaceful future by reducing the number of children err deeply. They give the children only the promise of a hard and bitter struggle for Germany's existence as a state and as an idea. Today when we work to show people that the ideas of yesterday are false, that the state and nation cannot do without the family, that the family cannot exist without children, and when we not only provide economic support to make it easier to begin families and have children,

but also tell people again and again of the sanctity of life and the necessity of continuing our people into the future, our enemies on both sides of the border suddenly have insults and hateful things to say about us.

They wish to disturb our work. Suddenly there are voices saying: "National Socialism's doctrines are inhumane and barbaric. National Socialism's views on children turn people into breeding animals. When it says that it is the duty of men and women to continue the eternal chain of life, a chain that begins in the distant past and continues into the future, a chain of which we are only a link leading into the distant future, our enemies on both sides of the border claim: "You reject the dignity and value of humanity. National Socialism holds that men and women have no value other than that of breeding cattle." It is a shame that we have to respond to such words, but it is necessary because our enemies have always tried to persuade women to oppose us, even though what we say is rooted in the souls of the men and women we speak to. This is our response: "You are mistaken in accusing us of thinking that the only purpose of humanity is to continue the species by passing on our blood to future generations. We know the other values. We support them and find wherever we can those values that the individual shows in his work and selfless service. We know well enough that each person lives a double life. The first is the one he lives between birth and death. We are to do as much as we can to make this life rich, to accomplish that which is good and beautiful, to use our strengths and gifts for others. That is the duty of the individual. But as a person you are something more: You are a member of the chain of life, a drop in the great bloodstream of your people.

There too you have duties and obligations before the eternity of the nation. You have the duty to pass on what you received from your parents and ancestors. I do not believe that such behavior, which obeys both the laws of reason and of life, is barbaric, hateful or inhumane. I believe instead that the barbarism is to be found in the years we have left behind us, when any dirty lout could besmirch the most valuable, holy life of a man or women in their families, or drag children through the filth, without anyone defending their culture against such an attack. I believe that when we tell people once more of the great value of blood, and remind them that they have duties not only for the 60-year span in which they work and serve, but also to the millennia of the past from which we come and to the millennia of the future to which we are heading, then we are giving them higher values than those of yesterday. Let me say also, however, that it is wrong if someone thinks that only those who found families and bear children are valuable to our state. We know that is not so. We know there are reasons why some people leave their people's flow of blood. We know that some are denied what the nation places great value on. We do not ignore them or think ourselves their betters. We only say this: "My friend, you and I must do our duty to our people, and when we cannot fulfill it in one way, then we must do what we can with even greater energy and devotion. When you do your duty, you are one of us, we extend our hand to you, we honor your humanity and your service for Germany. Let us work together so that in the future, as many people as possible will be able to serve the nation in both ways. That is a piece of the thinking of blood and race that National Socialism has taught us.

And there is another aspect.

When we see people today, we can recognize that we are not all alike. There are differences in value; each person does not have the same value as everyone else.

In the past, people believed that these differences were superficial, the result of the environment in which one grew up. People believed that what became of a person depended primarily on the house he grew up in or in his social environment, or the class he came from. They believed that a person born in a slum, surrounded by shadows, troubles and poverty, a child lacking in love and affection, could only become a second-class human being, a physically and psychologically ill member of the society, someone failed by the society and the state. One thought that a child growing up in such slum inevitably became sick, or even criminal. It was because he grew up in such a poor environment. The Marxists claimed that if every child in Germany grew up in an environment that gave him all he needed, he would inevitably become a useful, decent, upright, proud and honest adult. After a few years or decades, the entire German people would consist of such decent and useful people. In the past people believed the environment was responsible even when a person failed miserably.

We recall the days of delirium, when millions of unemployed had been thrown on the street by a sick political and economic system, made superfluous. A single person pried the tracks apart and derailed a train in the middle of the night. Within a minute he murdered 30 innocent people who had never done anything to him, and stole their money. And what did the world of yesterday say? "He can't help himself. He is a victim of circumstances. He has Beethoven's hands and an artistic temperament. We need not put him on the gallows or in prison to protect us and our children. No, this poor Schlesinger is only sick because of his environment. Put him in a modern sanitarium, give him what he needs: radio, a library, a smoking salon, a language teacher, a pastor, a newspaper room, give him everything he needs to put him in touch with better things. In a few years, this mass murderer of 30 people will leave as an ideal human being, so pure and innocent that one can put him in charge of a kindergarten."

That's what people thought in the past. Today that seems a bad joke to us, a crazy fantasy, but a few years ago it was government policy in Germany. Those who did well under such policies and have joined to fight us think that they can accuse our doctrines of blood and race as barbaric.

Why do we see things differently? Because we have learned something: In the end, you are not as important and significant as you thought yesterday; your strength and abilities are not as great as you believed during the liberal era. Oh yes, it was a lovely dream to say: "I will do with my life what I want, and of if I happen to be a teacher, I will teach what I want, and do what I enjoy, and what I think right." Well, that was your idea of the environment. We are a bit more modest, a bit more humble before the laws of fate.

We have learned that what I can do for myself or what you can do for yourself, or what we can all do to each other, is not as important, or as deep, as that which a greater power has already done to us. It is that power that even before our birth gave us a part of our nature, and laid out our path for us in the world. Here are joined two things: the knowledge of modern science and the sensitivity and understanding of a humble person. Suddenly we see that:

What you are, what I am and what I can be in my life is in part predetermined by that which I have inherited.

If my inheritance is good and strong, and if I am true to it and develop what is within me, my life will be successful, and perhaps of benefit and joy to others. If such an inheritance is denied me, or if for some inexplicable reason fate has given me other, perhaps weak, perhaps even bad traits, I can struggle against them for my entire life, and will still not be able to rid myself of that which slumbers in me because of the actions of a higher power.

We see then that a good part of a people's history is determined by what it has inherited. If we ask what sorts of physical or intellectual traits these may be, or what groups there are, we will see that each people has three groups. The first is a large group of people with average gifts, the most of us who are able to deal with the normal problems life presents us with. Next there is a very small group. This group has received a better inheritance than most of us, not because of any particular virtue on its part, but simply because of fate. The leaders of humanity, those who build states, lead people, or touch the soul, come from this group. And there is a third small group with particular traits, also not their fault: those who are sick or genetically defective. They are not up to the challenges of life, and need outside help to survive.

As humanity of a nation go through the centuries, the decisive fact is which of these three groups is the strongest. One might say: "That is not a question at all. The strongest will win, the group from which the leaders come. This superior group has to be the strongest in the end, it must gradually have its way." Well, that is how things would be without people, if people with their little brains did not believe that they could change the laws of life given to the world by heaven.

Man has interfered in these matters. He has tried to change the laws of struggle and existence and selection. Those were ancient laws of life, to which men too were subject: That which cannot meet the challenges dies.

That is hard, perhaps, but it is also the way that nature makes life stronger and better. Man has tried more and more to abolish these laws. He has kept life going by using artificial means in cases where, left to itself, it would have ended. He used all his understanding, love and sympathy to keep a person alive, even when it is no joy, but only a burden and misery. We now keep thousands, even tens of thousands of unhappy creatures alive through artificial means, those to whom life itself has denied the right to life. But keeping them alive was not itself the problem.

What is worse is that they were given the opportunity to pass on their unfortunate physical and mental characteristics. That was the worst that happened: we took the physically weak, the mentally ill, the genetically defective criminals and not only kept them alive and cared for them--that is our duty as human beings, which we certainly do not want to ignore in the future either--and gave them the ability to have children with the same deficiencies, thus doubling or multiplying their misery.

The German people do not know the extent of this misery, it does not know the depressing spirit of the homes where thousands of cripples live their lives only by being fed and cared for, poor creatures who are worse than any animal. The animal at least is as it should be. These poor creatures are distortions of life, no joy either to themselves or others. They are a burden throughout their miserable existences, but thanks to the selfless care and devotion of those who care for them may live 60, 70 or 80 years. The German people do not realize the enormous sums that have been spent for decades, money that is taken from those who are healthy, who could do something useful, but cannot because the money is lacking.

There was a winter in which children in Bavaria did not even have wooden shoes to wear as they walked through the snow on their way to school. They had to walk for hours bare-footed. At the same time, the government made sure that those unfortunate souls in a large institution had fresh bananas twice a week so that they got the necessary vitamins. But these vitamins could not give them joy or strength or health. But they were thus denied to those somewhere in the Bavarian forest, or in the Ruhr, or in a poor fishing village on the Frisian coast, where they could have reduced the poverty and need in some worker's house. At the same time there was a case where a single mentally ill Negro of English citizenship lived for 16 years in an institution in Berlin, costing 26,000 Marks. 26,000 Marks were thrown away on a life that had no meaning. 26,000 Marks that could have been used to prepare a dozen strong, healthy and gifted children for life and a job. But I am not speaking of this as a kind of theft. Money is not an end in itself. Rather, we have here committed a theft of spirit and soul, because we tried to persuade the nation and humanity that our own greatness could come from sacrificing for the worst and most helpless. In the end, we went so far as to put the sick and the dying before the young, strong, healthy and promising. That is against nature and life. A nation going this way is heading for the abyss.

We went so far as to preach year after year to healthy families that they should have no children, or at most one, else they sinned against the nation and the spirit of this enlightened age. But if some imbecile of a whore and a genetically ill criminal had children, they were not only a financial burden for their entire lives, but also took the labor of people who our society gave nothing better to do than to change these poor creatures three times a day and feed them. That is a perversion of everything great and healthy, and is a sin against life and the spirit of creation. With full knowledge of our duties as human beings and the requirements of pity, we made the decision not to allow such miserable creatures to pass on their misery to the next generation, multiplied perhaps two or three or more times. That is a major accomplishment, for which our children and their children will one day thank us.

I know that there are those who will say: "You are meddling in matters that are not your concern. You are interfering in an area outside human control. Life and death are not in the hands of man, but in those of a higher power. If God wants sick and genetically ill people to be born, you may not interfere through laws, operations, or any other measures with God's will. And if you do so--and you have with your Law to Prevent Inherited Illness--then you are acting against the will of God, and you are heretics." This is our answer: "My friend, you are wrong. It is true that we are subject to a higher power. We humans may never interfere with the great laws of the Creator. But you are wrong. See the laws the Creator has established for his world and your life. The great law is that life must be able to preserve itself, and that if it cannot, it will collapse. It is the hard, brutal law of the struggle for existence and of selection and extinction. It was the law we saw day by day, hour by hour, under all the clouds of heaven and all the stars of the sky, in which life seemed to find a senseless death, whether plant or animal or person, whether in distant Africa or near us. That which cannot meet the challenges of life dies, no matter how much pain it causes, and even if your small understanding or mind cannot comprehend it, these are the great laws of life and the world that God himself gave us. These are the laws, my German friend, that in our crazy fantasies we broke in the past." With overweening human pride and false pity, we broke the great law and kept those alive who under the laws of God would long since have perished. Today we are once more following these old laws, using humane methods, for they follow a more hard and brutal course in nature according to God's will. We are doing nothing more than reestablishing the laws of creation, and bowing to the heavenly order. We are thus showing piety and true humility--you are the heretics. This applies as well to the third and last principle of our racial thinking.

This third and last principle is that the people on this world, in America, Africa or China, are different both in body and soul. They are not equal, as yesterday's lie had it. People are different. They not only speak different languages and look different: no, they are different in the depths of their hearts and natures, and in their abilities for good and evil.

In the past people believed that these differences were accidental, the result of climate or civilization, and that one could overcome these differences and create a unified man in a unified state in which all would be equally happy. We have learned that such ideas are false. We have learned that the differences between the major blood groups of the world, between the major races, are not the result of human action, but of the laws of Creation. We have learned that the lines between blood and blood, race and race, are also the lines between soul and soul and spirit and spirit. We have learned that the opposite of the old phrase "What God has brought together, let no man put asunder" is also true. We have learned: What God has separated, man should not bring together. Heaven thought it good not to have only one type of people on the earth, but different kinds, various racially-bound peoples. That is a part of Creation. We bow before this truth and respect the borders. That means that the foundation of our separation of the races is not a matter of politics or economics, rather it rests on a higher level, to which we in the end are responsible. In our Reich, we are separating that which belongs to us, because it is blood of our blood, from that which does not belong to us, because it is foreign. We are doing that which is right not only for the moment, but for eternity. Believe me, my dear German fellow citizens, it is not true, as some say, that this doctrine is a sign of arrogance or superiority or boasting. We do not think ourselves better than the other races on the earth. No, we do not think ourselves better, nor do we believe that others are worse than we are.

We insist only on one thing--a law established by the Creator himself: Man differs from man and race from race in this world.

The others may not be better or worse, but they are different than we are, and because they are different than we are, there is a kind of wall between us that is part of the laws of life. That is the core of National Socialism's racial thinking. Our goal is not to insult others, to say: "What a great guy I am!" Rather, we hold to the humble recognition that each healthy piece of life has its corner of the world, and its special tasks. This is just as true of humans as it is of plants and animals in all their multiplicity. We know that one type is no more valuable than another.

But we also know that each variety of life has a right to existence only as long as it keeps itself pure and strong.

Only when a tree bears the proper fruit does it have a right to live. Otherwise it will be cut down and destroyed. We do not know why things are the way they are, and it would be foolish to ask the reason. That is how things are. Our task is to humbly accept the laws that govern our human existence, and to accept the fact that we are born Germans in Germany, not as Chinese or Eskimos. That is not because of our virtues, nor it is our fault, nor was it our will. It was fate that came from above. We have no choice but to accept this fate and to develop the abilities that fate has given us according to necessity and law. Others may develop in their own way, in their own land. We must listen to the depths of our own people, to draw from blood and inheritance the strength we need to build our homeland. A higher power will take care of the life beyond. I believe, my dear German fellow citizens, that everyone who is of our spirit will grant the correctness of our thinking about blood and race, and will say: "I see now that you are not only on the right path, but are honest and in the deepest sense true to demands that are greater than the laws of man."

Let us then together follow the path to a new worldview. Let us go the path of blood and race, which does not ignore faith and knowledge and a sense of higher powers.

Let us go this path, not a path of matter, superstition and heresy, rather a path of deep humility and piety before the laws of God. Let us go along this path together and listen to the deepest depths where blood and soul rule. Let us draw from there the strength to build the state, and even more important the Reich. It will be a Reich not only of politics, a Reich of organization, or the economy, but a Reich of people. Germany today has the fortune to find a new way, led by a great Führer. German women today have the good fortune to see a strong and loyal woman at their head. Let us together go forward, hand in hand, as befits comrades building the future, and let us join the strength of men and women, rooted deep in their b blood, to build what the world has never before seen: The holy Reich of the German soul. Heil!


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After reading this it became apparent to me that the great fault-line in American politics - perhaps in Western Civilization itself - divides those who embrace the ideals of the Declaration of Independence, particularly --

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

-- and those who don't. Abe Lincoln did, the Confederates didn't. Teddy Roosevelt and the progressive Republicans did, Woodrow Wilson and the Jim Crow Democrats didn't. LBJ and the Senate Republicans who passed the Civil Rights Act did, George Wallace and his dixiecrats didn't. Buchanan has assumed the mantle of those who reject the Declaration of Independence and its ideals, who will stand up to defend it?

1 posted on 01/04/2002 5:02:26 AM PST by Who is George Salt?
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To: Who is George Salt?
I think that making fanciful comparisons between Pat Buchanan and the Nazis pretty much destroys any legitimacy that your arguments might otherwise have. I'm not a big fan of Buchanan or many of his ideas (including the ones in his new book) but I know that he's not a Nazi.
2 posted on 01/04/2002 5:08:27 AM PST by DallasMike
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To: Who is George Salt?
One of the reasons National Socialism found such fertile ground in Weimar Germany was not its racialist ideology but rather, the Versailles Treaty and the so-called "stab-in-the-back" Germany had allegedly endured after the Great War. There is no historical parallel to that mindset in 21st century America.

Your post is provocative and inflammatory, as it was meant to be, but I think that a better historical analogy to modern Buchananism is the "Know Nothing" movement of the mid-19th century. It was nativist, xenophobic, and anti-immigrant. It was also trade-protectionist.

And most significantly, it had about the same level of popular support, i.e., around 0.5% of the population.

3 posted on 01/04/2002 5:10:27 AM PST by Cincinatus
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To: Who is George Salt?
By throwing the Nazi label around so recklessly, you just make it easier for the liberals to use it against all Conservatives. Perhaps that is your goal. What's next, some posts concerning Bush's grandfather or one comparing Christian conservatives to the Taliban?

Very nice.

4 posted on 01/04/2002 5:21:01 AM PST by IM2Phat4U
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To: IM2Phat4U
By throwing the Nazi label around so recklessly,

I said the parallels were uncanny; I never said he was a Nazi.

What's next, some posts concerning Bush's grandfather

Nah. Dubya's my president - I voted for him. He's a good man.

or one comparing Christian conservatives reconstructionists to the Taliban?

Hmm!

5 posted on 01/04/2002 5:27:10 AM PST by Who is George Salt?
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To: Who is George Salt?
Your tactics are right out of the leftist playbook. Here's one example of how easy folks like you have made it to call conservatives Nazis:

Rush Limbaugh Sings "I'm A Nazi"

Happy New Year,

I'll no longer be bumping this ridiculous thread.

6 posted on 01/04/2002 5:36:15 AM PST by IM2Phat4U
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To: DallasMike
I said the parallels are uncanny; I never said that he was a Nazi, even though he has expressed Nazi sympathies throughout his career:

-- In a 1977 column, Buchanan said that despite Hitler's anti-Semitic and genocidal tendencies, he was "an individual of great courage...Hitler's success was not based on his extraordinary gifts alone. His genius was an intuitive sense of the mushiness, the character flaws, the weakness masquerading as morality that was in the hearts of the statesmen who stood in his path." --Pat Buchanan, in The Guardian, defending Hitler, despite Hitler's antisemitic doctrine/ genocide (01/14/92).

-- "Diesel engines do not emit enough carbon monoxide to kill anybody." Pat Buchanan, expressing his revisionist views, challenging the fact that diesel exhaust was used to gas thousands of Jews at Treblinka, and discussing "group fantasies of martyrdom" in the New Republic (10/22/90)

-- "...it's running down 70-year-old camp guards." --Pat Buchanan, in the New York Times, discussing his attempts at getting the U.S. Justice Dept's Office of Special Investigations (which was in charge of prosecuting Nazi war criminals) closed down (04/21/87)

-- Buchanan was the one behind President Ronald Regan's visiting the Bitburg Cemetery in Germany (where Nazi SS troops had been buried), and has been said to have written Reagan's statement, SS troops buried at Bitburg were "victims just as surely as the victims in the concentration camps." New York Times, 05/16/85

-- "Our culture is superior. Our culture is superior because our religion is Christianity and that is the truth that makes men free." --Pat Buchanan, speaking before the Christian Coalition in 1993.

What I DID say is: Buchanan has assumed the mantle of those who reject the Declaration of Independence and its ideals.

7 posted on 01/04/2002 5:37:22 AM PST by Who is George Salt?
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To: laconas
He had to dig pretty hard to find one example.

Actually, it took me about 10 minutes.

9 posted on 01/04/2002 5:41:43 AM PST by Who is George Salt?
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To: Who is George Salt?
WGS, A related LINK. By the way, I don't think I've ever heard Pat say anything like the VERY important "Heil! In fact, it is his failure to kiss Republican or Democrat ass that is the cause of such infantile name calling. Peace and love, George.
11 posted on 01/04/2002 5:52:41 AM PST by George Frm Br00klyn Park
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To: Who is George Salt?
This is the kind of stuff I'd expect from a college freshman in POS 101. Very weak indeed. A genuine understanding of National Socialism (that means its political economics, etc.) is manifestly absent.
13 posted on 01/04/2002 6:00:07 AM PST by Mortimer Snavely
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To: Who is George Salt?
Buchanan is an authoritarian. As a conservative, he makes me uncomfortable. I wouldn't call him a Nazi, tho.
14 posted on 01/04/2002 6:01:24 AM PST by Eric in the Ozarks
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To: Who is George Salt?
Even Hitler knew when it was raining.

The parallels between the old german opinion and buchanan's might just mean that the german was a pretty good predictor/analyst of cultural phenomena notwithstanding his political ideology.

Was 9-11 the echo of the first bombing of the WTC? And where will the echo of Waco be heard?

15 posted on 01/04/2002 6:01:52 AM PST by RWG
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To: ohioman
And a Happy New Year to you, too!
16 posted on 01/04/2002 6:06:08 AM PST by Who is George Salt?
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To: Who is George Salt?
Others have pointed out the similarities between Buchanan's "dying West" and themes from Oswald Spengler's Decline of the West.

What drivel. Blake, Swedenborg, Huxley and Kinky Friedman all wrote "Heaven and Hell" books. I guess if you've read one capsulized review, you've read'em all.

17 posted on 01/04/2002 6:24:56 AM PST by monkey
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To: Who is George Salt?
"Who is George Salt", some numbnuts no doubt. All people are not created equal, and that is some fantasy fed to stupid and desperate and otherwise depraved citizens as much as any Soviet Union propaganda was fed to the Third World during the Cold War. Ants and worker bees are equal, but me I'll take inequality anyday because I seek to live as an individual with free conscience. As far as lifting that sentence fragment from the polemical piece known as the Declaration of Independence, again that is for domestic political consumption the other 6 billion people on Earth see that type of jargon as Western Imperialism. Those outside of our borders prefer the "equality" of Karl Marx or Bill Clinton to slave owning Thomas Jefferson or Patrick Henry. To close, remember human equality does not exist except in fantasy.
18 posted on 01/04/2002 6:33:22 AM PST by junta
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To: Who is George Salt?
I don't see anything wrong with a country seeking to maintain its cultural identity. As a matter of fact, I feel it is an OBLIGATION of any nation to do so. New immigrants are fine. They bring new ideas and new lifeblood to our society and we are now and always were, a nation of immigrants and should remain so. It is one of our strenghts.

However, we should be selective in choosing those who wish to enter here. We should expect that, in addition to adding to our cultural mix, that new immigrants assimilate and adopt American values and liefstyles and LANGUAGE, and most importantly, ALLEGIANCE. We should also control our borders to keep out illegal aliens and other foreign invaders who violate our laws and our boundaries.

Further, I would not want to live in a country where all, or most of the people belonged to any one ethnic group. As an American, I value ethnic diversity.

I think there is a very real threat that America, a nation based on ethnic diversity and whose traditions, culture and history are based on western European values, may be overwhelmed by a sea of illegal aliens from South America and Central America. Such is now occurring in California and a number of other states. It is the obligation of the national, state and local governments to protect the bset interests of American citizens, both those born here and naturalized here, by stopping this illegal wave of foreigners from overwhelming our support service network and eating up our resources and jobs.

Europe is not the United States. Europeans have a right to run their immigration policies as they see fit. However, Britain, Norway, France, Germany, Italy, etc, are ethnic states as are India, Japan, Thailand, etc. As such I would think that their governments had the obligation to maintain the ethnic identity of their own population by a far more selective, and ethnically based criteria than we, as a multi-racial and multi-ethnic society employ. Nor do I find any fault with the latter.

Finally, I am suspicious of any analogies between Pat Buchanan, a decent American populist conservative, and "Nazis". That smacks of playing the race card, a canard so overused in our society that it has lost, or should have lost its shock value years ago.

19 posted on 01/04/2002 6:36:12 AM PST by ZULU
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To: Derville
Agree or disagree?
20 posted on 01/04/2002 6:40:17 AM PST by junta
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To: Who is George Salt?
You are not far off base. During the election one could see Pat's themes. First, he was an America Firster and talked and talked about Mexico and immigration. That can be construed as nationalism. Secondly, he acted like a populist, bashing and speaking out against corporations and banks, saying they were complicit in the fall of America and suggested more government control. That could be understood as socialism. The last time we combined the two it was not such a good idea.
21 posted on 01/04/2002 6:48:07 AM PST by KC_Conspirator
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To: junta
To close, remember human equality does not exist except in fantasy.

No, it exists in reality as well.

To quote the great American poet, James Morrison: "Death makes equals of us all".

In otherwords, all human beings are mortal. No matter how we live our lives, no matter how strong or smart or handsome we are, in the end all of our strengths and talents turn to dust.

That, more then anything else, I think, is what makes us equal.

22 posted on 01/04/2002 6:48:20 AM PST by altayann
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To: Who is George Salt?
It's interesting that you take offense at Buchanan for proclaiming the superiority of the culture of the West, which he sees as being rooted in Christianity. (Buchanan's belief in the Christian basis of Western culture certainly sets him apart from the Nazis, by the way).

Feel free to test your belief in the equality of all cultures by moving to Afghanistan, India, or Burundi anytime you wish.

23 posted on 01/04/2002 6:50:23 AM PST by Thorin
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To: junta
All people are not created equal, and that is some fantasy fed to stupid and desperate and otherwise depraved citizens as much as any Soviet Union propaganda was fed to the Third World during the Cold War.

Spoken like a true "Blood and Soil" Calhoonist:

"All men are not created. According to the Bible, only two, a man and a woman, ever were, and of these one was pronounced subordinate to the other. All others have come into the world by being born, and in no sense ... either free or equal ... [This proposition] was inserted in our Declaration of Independence without any necessity. It made no part of our justification in separating from the parent country ... breach of our chartered privileges, and lawless encroachment on our acknowledged and well established rights by the parent country, were the real causes, and of themselves sufficient without resorting to any other, to justify the step. Nor had [these words] any weight in constructing the governments which were substituted in the place of the colonial. They were formed of the old materials and on practical and well-established principles, borrowed for the most part from our own experience and that of the country from which we sprang."

-- John Calhoun

Or, as that "Blood and Soil" Confederate, Alexander Stephens explained:

"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery -- subordination to the superior race -- is his natural and normal condition....The prevailing ideas entertained by him (Jefferson) and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally, and politically...Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error."

-- Alexander Stephens, "Cornerstone" speech

So it really does come down to the ideals of the Declaration of Independence, doesn't it?

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

You must really, really, REALLY hate those words.

24 posted on 01/04/2002 6:52:46 AM PST by Who is George Salt?
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To: Thorin
It's interesting that you take offense at Buchanan for proclaiming the superiority of the culture of the West, which he sees as being rooted in Christianity.

"But the greatest of all reformers of the depraved religion of his own country, was Jesus of Nazareth. Abstracting what is really his from the rubbish in which it is buried, easily distinguished by its lustre from the dross of his biographers, and as separable from that as the diamond from the dunghill, we have the outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man. The establishment of the innocent and genuine character of this benevolent morality, and the rescuing it from the imputation of imposture, which has resulted from artificial systems, invented by ultra-Christian sects (The immaculate conception of Jesus, his deification, the creation of the world by him, his miraculous powers, his resurrection and visible ascension, his corporeal presence in the Eucharist, the Trinity; original sin, atonement, regeneration, election, orders of the Hierarchy, etc.) is a most desirable object."

-- Thomas Jefferson, to W. Short, Oct. 31, 1819

Apparently, I'm in good company.

25 posted on 01/04/2002 7:25:20 AM PST by Who is George Salt?
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To: Who is George Salt?
I find it ironic that 130 years ago, we were trying to keep out the Irish. They were considered an immigration plague.
26 posted on 01/04/2002 7:29:29 AM PST by AppyPappy
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To: Who is George Salt?
Nah I don't hate them they are just polemical anyway. Lincoln carries enough baggage to negate them and his turn in the Left's "racist" dunk tank is coming soon so relax. As far as Alexander Stephens speach think of him in this light, born to a different set of parents he to could have been president of Zimbabwe. Have a good day and go out and observe your equality I am sure you will find it.
27 posted on 01/04/2002 7:30:34 AM PST by junta
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To: AppyPappy
They were, but they worked cheap. The women are gorgeous though, and that is good.
28 posted on 01/04/2002 7:33:26 AM PST by junta
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To: AppyPappy
According to the "Know Nothings" of the 1850s, one reason why the Irish were considered an immigration plague is because they were predominantly Catholic.
29 posted on 01/04/2002 7:34:51 AM PST by Who is George Salt?
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To: Who is George Salt?
So were the French. The Irish were considered "lower class", prone to drinking, fighting and criminal behavior. They clotted together in neighborhoods and preferred their own kind. Rather like Pat's view of Mexicans.
30 posted on 01/04/2002 7:40:10 AM PST by AppyPappy
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To: RWG
"Was 9-11 the echo of the first bombing of the WTC? And where will the echo of Waco be heard?" Oklahoma City.
31 posted on 01/04/2002 7:48:16 AM PST by Abbalon
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To: junta
It's nice to know that Southern-fried bigots and African tyrants have something in common, after all...restores my faith in humanity!
32 posted on 01/04/2002 8:09:27 AM PST by Who is George Salt?
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To: Cincinatus
Bump your post #3. ;^)
33 posted on 01/04/2002 10:05:32 AM PST by headsonpikes
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To: Who is George Salt?
I consider Pat to be a right-wing populist who has flirted with anti-Semetism.
As a son and grandson of survivors I am no fan of Pat.
However, he is not a Nazi.
There is a huge difference between noting the empirical fact that population is declining in Europe (and Japan) and calling for genocide.
There is a large difference between calling for an end to immigration and calling for the mass murder of communities.

A failure to realise this indicates shallow rhetoric.

I would also note that the signers of the Declaration of Independence also instituted a cap on immigration in 1798.
Moreover, I would argue that mass immigration has done a lot to lower the relative numbers of belivers in liberty in the US.
The fact is that immigrants ( not refugees from communism) tend to be far more socialist than the average American. They then also vote in their short-term self interest. Being poor and largely unskilled, they vote for Democrats and socialist unions.
The situation among their children is worse. Having no cultural basis in our traditions of liberty, they fall victim to the socialist indoctrination of Public education, especially found in bi-lingual ed.

We need to assimilate these immigrants and teach them what it is to be an American. Having an additional million immigrants enter annually only serves to increase teh problem and further insulate immigrants from mainstreme America.
Frankly, Pat is a poor choice for a spokesman on the issue. Pat is a demagogue and racist.

If you want a more reasoned attack on mass imiigration, read Alien Nation by Peter Brimlow.
Before I read the book I supported mass immigration so long as we ended affirmative action, bi-lingual ed, and multi-cultural programs. Now I support a virtual moratorium.
34 posted on 01/04/2002 2:38:56 PM PST by rmlew
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Comment #35 Removed by Moderator

To: rmlew
I consider Pat to be a right-wing populist who has flirted with anti-Semetism.

-- I agree.

However, he is not a Nazi.

-- Again, I agree. I never said PJB was a Nazi; I said there were some uncanny parallels between his rhetoric and Nazi propaganda,

There is a huge difference between noting the empirical fact that population is declining in Europe (and Japan) and calling for genocide.

-- In this speech, Gross does far more than simply note the empirical fact that the the population is declining in Europe. And he never specifically mentions the Jews - or genocide - though he makes a pretty strong pitch for eugenics, which implies forced euthanasia, and as we now know, much more.

My point is that PJB's rhetoric is hardly new; it can be traced back to Oswald Spengler, and Spengler's arguments were adopted by the Nazis. In other words, this rhetoric carries alot of baggage. This baggage, in itself, does not invalidate the thesis; however, when you consider PJB's previous flirtations with anti-Semitism, a red flag should go up.

Pat is a poor choice for a spokesman on the issue. Pat is a demagogue and racist.

-- Again, we agree. Reasonable people can honestly disagree over this issue. PJB is not an honest person - he is a dangerous demagogue.

36 posted on 01/05/2002 2:18:47 PM PST by Who is George Salt?
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To: AppyPappy
Let me ask you this, when my Irish, Welsh, and English ancestors came to America were they eligible for welfare? Were they given job finding assistance at the employment dept. in their native language? Were they given free emergency medical care? Were they given more preference points for government jobs than some military veterans? Were they eligible for Social Security and Medicare even though they hadn't paid in their fair share? Were the Irish that came to Ellis island with tuberculosis allowed into the country? Did the Welsh immigrants smuggle cocaine when they crossed the border? Did these people NOT assimilate into the AMERICAN culture after 3 or 4 generations? Did my great grandmother recieve WIC benefits once my grandfather was born (during the depression)? Who the he!! do you think pays out the nose for all of the above benefits? Is it the Mexican illegals or is it the average American taxpayer? Well, considering the fact that most of the amigos that work in the fields here in the Willamette valley are working under the table I would say that Joe sixpack is footing the bill. You sir are comparing apples to oranges. History repeats itself and the USA is currently following the Roman Empire's recipe for self destruction with the help of your Spanish speaking friends.
37 posted on 01/05/2002 2:32:16 PM PST by Tailback
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Comment #38 Removed by Moderator

Comment #39 Removed by Moderator

To: Who is George Salt?;Thorin
"But the greatest of all reformers of the depraved religion of his own country, was Jesus of Nazareth. Abstracting what is really his from the rubbish in which it is buried, easily distinguished by its lustre from the dross of his biographers, and as separable from that as the diamond from the dunghill, we have the outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man. The establishment of the innocent and genuine character of this benevolent morality, and the rescuing it from the imputation of imposture, which has resulted from artificial systems, invented by ultra-Christian sects (The immaculate conception of Jesus, his deification, the creation of the world by him, his miraculous powers, his resurrection and visible ascension, his corporeal presence in the Eucharist, the Trinity; original sin, atonement, regeneration, election, orders of the Hierarchy, etc.) is a most desirable object."

-- Thomas Jefferson, to W. Short, Oct. 31, 1819

Apparently, I'm in good company.

Get a clue. In the first part of the quote Jefferson is talking about Judaism, and in the last part he is bashing Catholicism. So what exactly is your point? That you're both an anti-semite and anti-Catholic?

40 posted on 01/05/2002 3:49:39 PM PST by UberVernunft
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To: Who is George Salt?
I said the parallels are uncanny...

This phrase "the parallels are uncanny" should be banished from the English language.

41 posted on 01/05/2002 3:57:50 PM PST by Longshanks
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To: UberVernunft
and in the last part he is bashing Catholicism

I should modify this to read that he is bashing Christianity in general, not just Catholicism.

42 posted on 01/05/2002 4:00:51 PM PST by UberVernunft
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To: Who is George Salt?
The great laws of life were evaluated according to money sacks and checkbooks.

Gee...where have I heard that before...it looks like a number of people here are the intellectual heirs of National Socialism.

43 posted on 01/05/2002 4:05:58 PM PST by garbanzo
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Comment #44 Removed by Moderator

To: Who is George Salt?
-- Thomas Jefferson, to W. Short, Oct. 31, 1819

Apparently, I'm in good company

Since Jefferson was a well known slave owner should we reasonably draw other parallels?

45 posted on 01/05/2002 4:09:46 PM PST by UberVernunft
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To: Who is George Salt?
Thanks for this post and taking time to highlight the essential points.

Buchanan's deterioration has been gaining momentum recently, hasn't it?

46 posted on 01/05/2002 4:10:25 PM PST by TopQuark
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To: Who is George Salt?
Bump for later.

Wife asked me if she should order the book. I thought not, but I am ordering tonight to see what Pat really says.

My last book was "The Clash of Civilizations."

An academic might make the same points as a rough and tumble Irishman, but with more structure and background. I dunno until I read Pat's

Race difference has become the issue "which shall not be spoken of." Justifiably so, to this point, as the issue has been co-opted by bigots.

Race is a part of culture and culture is a part of civilizations. Huntington's analysis of the 21st century conflicts being around civilizational lines sounds right to me.

Not yet sure how Pat figures in this. I am ordering the book.

47 posted on 01/05/2002 4:14:18 PM PST by don-o
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To: Who is George Salt?
Pat's arguements actually come from Fr. Paul Marx, a widely respected leader of the pro-life movement.

The point is simply that white people have become selfish in their sexuality. Most whites expect a life of multiple sex partners but no (or very few) children. This worldly sentiment is new and anti-God but most Protestant denominations and Catholic individuals accept it to varying degrees.

If the rubber breaks or the pill fails, then abortion provides the fail-safe backup. Pope Paul VI accurately predicted in 1968 that contraceptive societies would become abortive societies.

Don't call Pat a NAZI just because you had your manhood snipped.

48 posted on 01/05/2002 4:21:28 PM PST by Longshanks
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To: Cincinatus
#3..very good.
49 posted on 01/05/2002 4:27:37 PM PST by Huck
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To: Who is George Salt?
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

-- and those who don't. Abe Lincoln did, the Confederates didn't.

You're so full of BS it's comical.

Abraham Lincoln, as cited in "The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln," Roy Basler, ed. 1953 New Brunswick, N.J.: Rutgers University Press:

"I will say, then, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races -- that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

An address by Abraham Lincoln at Springfield, Illinois, on June 26, 1857 [Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, Vol II, pp 408-9, Basler, ed.]:

"A separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation, but as immediate separation is impossible the next best thing is to keep them apart where they are not already together. Such separation, if ever affected at all, must be effected by colonization The enterprise is a difficult one, but 'where there is a will there is a way:' and what colonization needs now is a hearty will. Will springs from the two elements of moral and self-interest. Let us be brought to believe it is morally right, and at the same time, favorable to, or at least not against our interest, to transfer the African to his native clime, and we shall find a way to do it, however great the task may be."

50 posted on 01/05/2002 4:37:23 PM PST by VinnyTex
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