How STILL Not to Debate Intelligent Design (Liars for Evolution)

Access Research Network ^ | 01/09/02 | William A. Dembski

[tortoise]

Intelligent design refers to intelligent processes operating in nature that arrange pre-existing matter into information-rich structures.

Unfortunately, this sentence doesn't make any sense. No process is intelligent, but follows simple rules which may or may not be iterated a vast number of times to yield complex results. Without external enthalpy, a process will only yield more entropy. However, with external enthalpy a process can be driven backward to create a reduction in entropy (locally at least). Of course, it gets interesting when you consider that essentially everything in the universe is fundamentally a dumb process.

[Semper]

It is also very plausible based on these facts that it will eventually be possible to have a computer that can detect every finite state (i.e. non-random) process in the universe.

That is assuming that there is a finite quantity of states and therefore a finite universe. That may not be the case. Whatever the case however, the more information we obtain and understand, the more difficulty the biblical literalists will have.

[f.Christian]

What men... believe---really matters!

[Semper]

No process is intelligent, but follows simple rules

The process itself may not be intelligent but it is evidence of intelligence. The existence of rules is a manifestation of intelligence.

[Semper]

What men... believe---really matters!

If men believe the world is flat (creationism), that will be THEIR reality but it will not be a true scientific fact (evolution).

[f.Christian]

Evolution didn't blow a tire--engine--run out of gas...just the bottom of the cliff--hill....crash!

[FreeTally]

I ask you: How could anything be stupider or worse than that? What could possibly be worse than professing to believe in such a thing?

Very good summation! A bit long, but it was worth the read. Most responses to your post were expected - so typical.

[Junior]

How could anything be stupider or worse than that? What could possibly be worse than professing to believe in such a thing?

Dunno. Earth orbiting Saturn pretty much fits the bill...

[f.Christian]

Evolution is bunk--- Creation is science!

[Exnihilo]

No process is intelligent

Really? Is solving a differential equation an intelligent process? Oh! Wait.. you mean a natural process.. I see. I'm glad to see that your a priori commitment to scientific naturalism isn't blinding you from other possibilities. LOL!

[Exnihilo]

Out of curiosity.. is it possible for anyone on this website to actually post responses to the original post at hand? It seems like I post an article, and then everyone debates crevo as if the article I posted were debating the issue.

[Doctor Stochastic]

The point is, you could believe ANYTHING, and be better off than being an evolutionist.

I believe you're wrong.

[Exnihilo]

If you paid even a shred of attention to the thread, you would know that we are discussing something totally unrelated to this. ID theorists do not deny evolution!

[Junior]

What a topsy-turvey world; planet; globular mass; mental state you must live in; inhabit; exist within!

Ack! Thhppt!

[Doctor Stochastic]

"Random" is just a human concept based upon incomplete information.

No. The concept of random has nothing to do with incomplete information. There are (a few) incomplete information problems wherein one assumes that missing data is "random" (all this is a very loose descripton.) The quantum mechanical description of matter implies that there are "random" (not a-causal, random) events that cannot depend on incomplete information. Quantum mechanics works very well.

There is "Nothing by Chance" - which is the title of a very interesting book by Richard Bach.

Then Mr. Bach's theory of matter must show testable disagreement with quantum mechanics. Ping me when Bach publishes his (refereed) experiments showing where QM fails.

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Our current understanding may be finite, but since we only use, at most, about 10% of our brain capacity, we have no way of knowing for sure if our brain capacity in finite or not.

Quite remarkable things have been done by people (mothers lifting tractors off of children, idiot savantry, etc.) which argues the the 90%+ part of the brain that we don't use is quite remarkable.

I would argue that to make a computer that knows all finite-states would be impossible with our current understanding of computing technology.  For one thing, there is the infinite recursion problem, because you also have to know the finite states inherent in the computers, but since you recurse, you also have to know all those states too...).

[Semper]

The following was posted on another thread by VadeRetro:

Kristol agrees with this "There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people," he says in an interview. "There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn't work."

I would modify that to say there are different interpretations or understandings of truth for those groups. But whatever, it is difficult to discuss something as complex as existence between groups - which is what we seem to be doing here.

[jennyp]

How could anything be stupider or worse than that? What could possibly be worse than professing to believe in such a thing?

Dunno. Earth orbiting Saturn pretty much fits the bill...

BUUUUUUURRRRNNNNN!!!!! </Kelso voice>

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Where do information-rich structures (so necessary for evolution) evolve from?

[Exnihilo]

Don't ask questions like that!! You're talking about abiogenesis, and you'll quickly be told that "evolution has nothing to do with abiogenesis". This is the ultimate cop out of course, but that's what you'll be told. Otherwise, you'll get a cute story about amino acids linking together, some how forming RNA, and magically becoming DNA, and at the same time developing the ability to convert energy into a usable form! The yarns they will spin make Grandma's stories seem boring!