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We Dodged Extinction
ABCNews ^ | Lee Dye

Posted on 01/29/2002 7:23:19 PM PST by Sabertooth

We Dodged Extinction
Chimpanzees
‘Pruned’ Family Tree Leaves Little Genetic Variety

Just one group of chimpanzees can have more genetic diversity than all 6 billion humans on the planet. (Corel)



Special to ABCNEWS.com
A worldwide research program has come up with astonishing evidence that humans have come so close to extinction in the past that it’s surprising we’re here at all.
    Pascal Gagneux, an evolutionary biologist at the University of California at San Diego, and other members of a research team studied genetic variability among humans and our closest living relatives, the great apes of Africa.
     Humanoids are believed to have split off from chimpanzees about 5 million to 6 million years ago. With the passage of all that time, humans should have grown at least as genetically diverse as our “cousins.” That turns out to be not true.
     “We actually found that one single group of 55 chimpanzees in west Africa has twice the genetic variability of all humans,” Gagneux says. “In other words, chimps who live in the same little group on the Ivory Coast are genetically more different from each other than you are from any human anywhere on the planet.”

Primate Tree
The branch lengths illustrate the number of genetic differences, not only between species, but among species as well. The pruned bush for humans shows how little genetic diversity exists. (Marco Doelling/ABCNEWS.com)

The Family Bush
“The family tree shows that the human branch has been pruned,” Gagneux says. “Our ancestors lost much of their original variability.”
     “That makes perfectly good sense,” says Bernard Wood, the Henry R. Luce Professor of Human Origins at George Washington University and an expert on human evolution.
     “The amount of genetic variation that has accumulated in humans is just nowhere near compatible with the age” of the species, Wood says. “That means you’ve got to come up with a hypothesis for an event that wiped out the vast majority of that variation.”
     The most plausible explanation, he adds, is that at least once in our past, something caused the human population to drop drastically. When or how often that may have happened is anybody’s guess. Possible culprits include disease, environmental disaster and conflict.

Almost Extinct
“The evidence would suggest that we came within a cigarette paper’s thickness of becoming extinct,” Wood says.
     Gagneux, who has spent the last 10 years studying chimpanzees in Africa, says the implications are profound.
     “If you have a big bag full of marbles of different colors, and you lose most of them, then you will probably end up with a small bag that won’t have all the colors that you had in the big bag,” he says.
     Similarly, if the size of the human population was severely reduced some time in the past, or several times, the “colors” that make up our genetic variability will also be reduced.
     If that is indeed what happened, then we should be more like each other, genetically speaking, than the chimps and gorillas of Africa. And that’s just what the research shows.
     “We all have this view in our minds that we [humans] started precariously as sort of an ape-like creature” and our numbers grew continuously, adds Wood. “We’re so used to the population increasing inexorably over the past few hundred years that we think it has always been like that.”
     But if it had, Gagneux notes, our genetic variability should be at least as great as that of apes.

A Stormy Past
Gagneux is the lead author of a report that appeared in the April 27 issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. The study, carried out with researchers in Germany, Switzerland and the United States, is the first to examine large numbers of all four ape species in Africa.
     “We can do that now because new technology allows us to non-invasively take some hair, or even some fruit that these apes chew, and then we get their DNA from a couple of cells that stick to a hair or a piece of fruit they chewed.”
     Then they compared the DNA variability of apes and chimps to that of 1,070 DNA sequences collected by other researchers from humans around the world. They also added the DNA from a bone of a Neanderthal in a German museum. The results, the researchers say, are very convincing.
     “We show that these taxa [or species] have very different amounts and patterns of genetic variation, with humans being the least variable,” they state.
     Yet humans have prevailed, even though low genetic variability leaves us more susceptible to disease.
     “Humans, with what little variation they have, seem to maximize their genetic diversity,” Gagneux says.
     “It’s ironic,” he notes, that after all these years the biggest threat to chimpanzees is human intrusion into their habitats. When he returned to Africa to study a group of chimps he had researched earlier, Gagneux found them gone.
     “They were dead,” he says, “and I mean the whole population had disappeared in five years.”
     Yet as our closest living relatives, chimps still have much to teach us about ourselves.

Lee Dye’s column appears Wednesdays on ABCNEWS.com. A former science writer for the Los Angeles Times, he now lives in Juneau, Alaska.



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To: capitan_refugio
Post Script:

A few years ago there was an astrophysicist by the name of Thomas Gold (if memory serves me). He somehow came to the conclusion that most crustal hydrocarbons (petroleum, natural gas, etc.) were the result of the degassing of the mantle - primarily inorganic methane. Somehow he talked a Nordic country into testing his pet theory by drilling an oil well in a meteorite impact crater.

The whole thing was a terrific and costly failure. Professor Gold, however, kept his blinders on and continued to push his idea. He should have studied a little petroleum geology first.

There is nothing wrong scientifically with proposing a hypothesis and putting it to the test. But how many "free energy" black boxes, or cold fusion devices to you have to look at before you realize you are being scammed?

151 posted on 01/31/2002 12:24:20 AM PST by capitan_refugio
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To: another cricket;js1138
JS->After the flood, omnivores.

AC->There were some great physical changes that came about after the flood. One of them was that mans life span began to shorten. Maybe there was some kind of physical change and we required certain nutrients that are not available only in veggies.

One explanation I've seen of this was that the flood was composed of the water vapors above the earth. It is postulated that there was a water canopy of sorts and that this canopy greatly restricted harmful radiation. Basically the world before the flood was a much more benign place than the world after the flood. With increased challenges came an increase in nutritional needs and a shorter lifespan. (or at least that's what I remember of it)

GSA(P)

152 posted on 01/31/2002 3:48:43 AM PST by John O
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To: another cricket
My question was serious, and I thank you for a serious answer. But I think you are aware that I consider your answer (and some others posted on this thread) to involve some serious rationalizations.

The idea that nutritional needs change with time in a God directed universe seems silly. Same with the notion that killing is OK or NOTOK at the whim of God. As for the possibility that "clean" and "unclean" are statements about health and hygiene, why not simply say that some animals carry diseases?

153 posted on 01/31/2002 5:43:13 AM PST by js1138
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To: John H K
"There isn't a scrap of evidence for a world-wide flood."

Err... you're way off in la-la land there, sorry, and I'm not taking this from the POV of THOU ART D*MMED! The "world wide" flood is well documented and accepted by archaeologists and ethnologists alike; it's called the end of the Wurm Glaciation. It caused massive changes in weather patterns and rising water levels throughout the world. Since every major culture has a "flood" myth, there had _better_ have been a flood.

Especially in the Black Sea basin, there was a sudden and catastrophic rise, with water moving as much as three miles per hour. There was no way that humans could have outraced it on foot. The most likely direct explanation (which does _not_ preclude equality with the Christian explanation, if you accept that in an oral history things are going to get a tad allegorical) of the Noah myth is that a patriarch (or, alternatively, a nutcase, or, alternatively, the prehistoric equivalent of Murtaugh in the lethal weapon movies who just wanted a boat to tinker with) of one of the villages created a raft boat for reasons more or less unknown. And when the water started rising he piled his kids, his goats and his wife on the raft and floated to safety. I think that _I'd_ be looking to Divine Providence if my really odd hobby saved my life and the life of my family and best pair of goats. (And he led all the animals two by two...)

Now, one like _Waterworld_ (which is just the Noah flood, showing that True Believer Greens and True Believe Christians are alike in their belief in Revealed Truth) did not happen. But there was one _h*ll_ of a flood (and possibly alot of rain and even a rainbow or two) and dat's da trut'!

Over all, I found the article vey illuminating. And for the "there is no evolution" crowd, you can have your cake and eat it too. Although they discuss evolution, the data works just as well with "conscious creation" or whatever it's called. If God placed us on Earth x thousand years ago, there would be natural variation. (Blacks, browns, yellows, etc.) But there would be less (unless he was being deliberately sneaky) than "natural" species.

154 posted on 01/31/2002 6:14:01 AM PST by Abn1508
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To: onyx
I do not believe in evolution. End of story.

So stick your fingers in your ears and chant, "Nyah, nyah, nyah." It's a great way to avoid unpleasant realities.

155 posted on 01/31/2002 6:31:22 AM PST by Junior
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To: Diddle E. Squat
Another recent article put the bottleneck at a few thousand individuals 20,000 years ago, not two or eight individuals 6,000 years ago. Genesis still does not offer any insight into this situation. Sorry.
156 posted on 01/31/2002 6:37:24 AM PST by Junior
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To: js1138
My question was serious, and I thank you for a serious answer.

You are quite welcome.

But I think you are aware that I consider your answer (and some others posted on this thread) to involve some serious rationalizations.

I knew I detected something there. It is SO nice to be right. It happens far to rarely.
Cannot answer for other people but I will be glad to explain my reasoning.

The idea that nutritional needs change with time in a God directed universe seems silly.

Why? If you live in different areas of the world your eating habits change. 100 years ago if you live in a cold climate you required a diet higher in fat then if you lived in a warmer climate. That has changed because of central heating and warmer houses. If you smoke you require more vitamin C then if you don’t. Change in environment results in changes in diet. Even from childhood to adulthood our nutritional needs change.

Same with the notion that killing is OK or NOTOK at the whim of God.

I think you misunderstood me. It is not a case of Okay and Not Okay but of needed and not needed. Blood was always required for the redemption from sin but as long as the human race was without sin there was no need for blood to be shed.

As for the possibility that "clean" and "unclean" are statements about health and hygiene, why not simply say that some animals carry diseases?

Poetic license? ~smile
As I pointed out that was only part of the reason. The rest was to draw a line, make a distention between the Jews (chosen) and the rest of the world (not chosen) The Jews were offered certain incentives in exchange for certain actions on their part.

A. Cricket
This thread has certainly wandered into some interesting places.

157 posted on 01/31/2002 11:47:41 AM PST by another cricket
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To: Junior
Actually it does. Statistically a few thousand 20,000 years ago could very well have actually been 8. Because there is so much figuritve language used in the Bible, I don't believe in a literal 7 days or 4,000 year timeline(though Biblical commands on lifestyle, the story of a virgin birth, etc. are clearly literal). And remember that science is theory, much of what science believes now will prove false in a few decades. So once again scientific research seems to confirm Biblical accounts(just as I believe most elements of evolution support the Biblical account, but the missing link is missing for a reason, Adam never was an ape. IIRC, Darwin was a Christian.)
158 posted on 01/31/2002 12:52:31 PM PST by Diddle E. Squat
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To: MeeknMing
Thanks for the heads up!
159 posted on 01/31/2002 9:43:26 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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Comment #160 Removed by Moderator

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To: Doctor Stochastic
The Discovery Channel had a program on supervolcanoes last Sunday. The Toba event was significantly mentioned as well as a forthcoming Yellowstone event.
164 posted on 02/03/2002 7:01:45 AM PST by reg45
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To: Salman
If a flood wiped out the majority of the human race. Then we must all be descended from the good swimmers. We should all have fins - or big feet like Ian Thorpe.

8-)

165 posted on 02/03/2002 7:16:58 AM PST by reg45
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To: Sabertooth
The human species has so little genetic diversity. That really ruins all those racially motivated eugenic theories of the past. I guess that there really is only one human race. We are all cousins.
166 posted on 02/03/2002 7:23:06 AM PST by reg45
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To: xcon
Pray tell how Noah got 2 of every animal on that ark along with the food needed to feed them all for forty days and forty nights and how in the world did him and the few people with him take care of them all, feeding and watering them. Plus look at how many animals there are in the world, also how did the birds get from the ME back down to AU, or the penguins back to Antartica? Answer these questions because inquiring minds want to know.

I'll play Noahic Advocate for the moment...

God called the animals, Noah didn't gather them.

As far as care and feeding, several possibilities make it asomewhat easier a task...
First, the animals on the Ark could have been babies.
Second, many could have been hibernating.

Since most Creationists stipulate some level of microevolution, it might not be necessary to have two African and two Indian elephants. Having a pair of babies requires far less space and food.

Birds fly and penguins swim. Stick with Kangaroos on this one.


167 posted on 02/03/2002 7:43:07 AM PST by Sabertooth
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To: reg45
If a flood wiped out the majority of the human race. Then we must all be descended from the good swimmers. We should all have fins - or big feet like Ian Thorpe

Ever heard of the "aquatic ape hypothesis"? Do a google.

168 posted on 02/03/2002 8:21:16 AM PST by Salman
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To: xcon
i think i think. It is the literal word of god or what is it. Or is only to be interpeted by you when it fits your thoughts? Thats what is bad about creationists, not only do they twist science they twist their own holy books.

I'm not sure you followed the discussion about clean and unclean. The discussion was not wether or not the Bible is the literal word of God, but rather out of the literal word of God what He meant by clean and unclean. My position was that clean and unclean were described in Leviticus, and these same principles of cleanliness have always been, and still are. In fact the discussion was not about creation anymore at all. So I'm not sure how we or I was "twisting" the Bible is this sense.

Perhaps if you had posted this in response to a different post where I was trying to make the Bible fit science, then you would have had a legitimate bitch. Maybe this response was not necessarily directed at me, and more of a rant? I'm a scientist and I also hate the twisting of scripture or science to meet anyone one certain end. Both should stand on their own - the chips wll fall where they may.

171 posted on 02/03/2002 10:02:37 AM PST by realpatriot71
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To: xcon
view> A RESOURCE FOR ANSWERING THE CRITICS OF NOAH'S ARK function displayWindow(theURL,winName,width,height,features) { //v3.1 // Implemented by Jason Daniel Henderson, Sr. Web Designer var window_width = width; var window_height = height; var newfeatures= features; var window_top = (screen.height-window_height)/2; var window_left = (screen.width-window_width)/2; newWindow=window.open(''+ theURL + '',''+ winName + '','width=' + window_width + ',height=' + window_height + ',top=' + window_top + ',left=' + window_left + ',features=' + newfeatures + ''); newWindow.focus(); } //--> // implemented by ICR Sr. Web Designer, Jason Daniel Henderson function printWindow(){ bV = parseInt(navigator.appVersion) if (bV >= 4) window.print() } '+descrip+''; return mes; } // -- End Hiding Here -->

Institute for Creation Research

"Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." Rev 4:11
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IMPACT No. 273


A RESOURCE FOR ANSWERING THE CRITICS OF NOAH'S ARK


by John Woodmorappe*

Institute for Creation Research, PO Box 2667, El Cajon, CA 92021
Voice: (619) 448-0900 FAX: (619) 448-3469

"Vital Articles on Science/Creation" March 1996
Copyright © 1996 All Rights Reserved


How many animals did the Ark actually carry, and how did Noah get all those animals on the Ark? How could eight people possibly care for so many thousands of animals, and how could such a small crew deal with tons of manure on a daily basis? How could the koala, which only eats fresh Eucalyptus leaves, be maintained on the Ark for an entire year? Add a thousand and one other similar questions to these. For centuries, skeptics have argued against the veracity of the account of Noah's Ark and the global Flood, gloating over its supposed impossibility. In recent years, such arguments have come thick and fast from modern anti-creationists who have largely parroted the earlier critics of the Ark.

Compromising evangelicals have uncritically accepted many of these anti-Biblical assertions ("after all, so many scientists can't be wrong") and sought to "save" the Flood account by trivializing it into a glorified river flood of the Tigris-Euphrates. More orthodox Bible-believers, willing to accept all the teachings of Scripture (including its unmistakable claim of a global Flood) have also been needlessly intimidated by these intellectual-sounding anti-Ark arguments. As a result of this, many sincere believers have felt that the only solution to this vast array of "impossible" difficulties with the Ark was to posit miraculous solutions to them.

Yet when we look at all these anti-Ark arguments, we note a conspicuous lack of scholarly response to most of them, at least in any kind of concerted manner. Indeed, there never before has been a modern systematic evaluation of the alleged difficulties surrounding Noah's Ark. My recent book, Noah's Ark: A Feasibility Study, has just been published and is the fruit of seven years of painstaking research, including the reading of hundreds of books and articles on animal care. The work carries a foreword by Dr. Henry M. Morris, the President Emeritus of ICR, and is dedicated to the observance of the 25th anniversary of the founding of the Institute for Creation Research.

The book itself contains a bibliography of approximately 1,200 references. In it, all of the arguments against the Ark are systematically examined, and all are found wanting. In fact, the vast majority of the anti-Ark arguments, at first superficially plausible, turn out to be easily invalidated.

To start out, I reviewed what Scripture actually teaches about what kinds of creatures were taken on the Ark in order to dispel the oft-repeated charge that the Ark needed to carry perhaps 50 million species of creatures. I then figured out how many animals were on the Ark, arriving at approximately 16,000. Since animals vary so much in size, a numerical figure itself is not too informative. Therefore, the 16,000 animals were assigned into body-weight categories. As a result, there were eight logarithmic categories spanning the hummingbird (a few grams each) and the largest dinosaur (nearly 100 tons when adult). Since most of the animals were small, the median animal on the Ark was about the size of a rat. Only 15% of the animals were sheep-sized or larger (neglecting the taking of juveniles on the Ark), but it was the larger animals which accounted for most of the food intake and production of excreta.

To calculate the housing space needed by the animals, I employed laboratory-animal housing standards for reference animals of comparable mass. Also, by using the body-weight categories, and actual measurements of animal-food intake, I was able to determine how much food and water the animals would need for their 371-day Ark stay. Special emphasis was placed on the large mammalian herbivores and their ostensible requirement for vast quantities of bulky hay. It turns out that the Ark was more than ample to accommodate the animals along with their water and provender, with considerable room to spare.

What about the animal excreta? I found that approximately 12 metric tons of excreta would have been produced daily by all the Ark animals. By studying agricultural literature and the various means of dealing with large volumes of animal waste, I was able to show that it was easily possible for eight people to deal with this much excreta. Moreover, I evaluated the possible use of several different methods of waste management of which involved the daily removal of animal waste, and some which allow the steady accumulation of animal waste on the Ark without its removal. Both types of methods were found to be workable and practical, as demonstrated by their modern counterparts in the management of agricultural wastes.

Because there have been so many arguments which allege the impossibility of eight people caring for so many animals, I delved into actual manpower studies on the time required to care for a given number of animals under various conditions. It turns out that simple labor-saving techniques could have enabled eight people to care for 16,000 rat-sized animals assuming the availability of only rustic tools, along with a 10-hour day, 6-day week, with time to spare.

One of the most difficult aspects of maintaining wild animals in captivity is the meeting of their respective food requirements. Not surprisingly, there is a large constellation of arguments against the Ark centered on the supposed impossibility of Noah meeting these dietary requirements. These animals include carnivores, as well as an assortment of animals with specialized diets today that are comprised of live and/or perishable foods.

I first considered large carnivores (e.g., lions), demonstrating that a large quantity of fodder animals were unnecessary to supply meat for them. I then considered the animals that eat only live foods, such as the insectivorous bats and soft-billed birds, showing that they could have been maintained without extensive culturing of live insects on the Ark. Next were considered animals with the most highly specialized diets, proving that Noah did not need to grow Eucalyptus on the Ark for the koalas, nor bamboo for the pandas aboard. I also showed how the dietary needs of vampire bats, king cobras, certain highly-folivorous primates, and three-toed sloths could have been met on the Ark.

The hibernation of animals on the Ark was also considered. This factor is difficult to evaluate since different animals hibernate under varying conditions, and there is no comprehensive database which tabulates these conditions. It was conservatively assumed that the animals did not undergo any form of dormancy at all. I did indeed substantiate the fact that many of the animals could have gone into dormancy under the conditions inside the Ark; however, prolonged dormancy of the animals was actually unnecessary.

Many other aspects of animal care were considered, including arguments revolving around the need to ventilate the Ark, behavioral problems in dealing with wild animals on a large-scale basis, consequences of crowding and the need for exercise, the provision of bathing facilities, the survival of animals which do poorly in captivity, and many other alleged problems. In each case, reasonable and usually simple solutions were found to be sufficient to solve the problems.

There are also hoary arguments, repeated to this day by anti-creationists, against the successful stocking of the Ark, owing to different climatic requirements of animals. We are still fed visions of polar animals suffocating from the heat on their way to the Ark, or else having nowhere to live in a warm pre-Flood world. By studying the actual climatic tolerances of animals, I have shown how polar temperature and tropical animals (and plants, for that matter) could easily have coexisted in a warm, pre-Flood world.

Although this work is on Noah's Ark and its cargo, I also considered the fate of organisms not on it. For instance, it was shown how both salt-intolerant and salt-requiring fish, as well as amphibians, could have survived the Flood, even if there were no stable layers of fresh and salt water in the shoreless ocean.

Attacks on the credibility of the Ark are not limited to the Flood period itself, but also to the immediate post-Flood period. For instance, critics make many baseless allegations, such as the idea of animals coming off the Ark devouring each other for want of anything else to eat. The absurdity of such arguments is shown, along with recognizing the availability of many unconventional sources of food in the ostensibly barren post-Flood world. Several examples are also given of modern animals switching to unconventional food sources whenever their usual food is unavailable.

There also are botanical chapters in the book, demonstrating the spuriousness of anti-creationist claims about plants being unable to survive the Flood. We are told that the soils must have been too salty for any seeds to germinate, or that seeds must have prematurely germinated in the floodwater. After refuting these claims, I focus on seed germination and review the many studies which demonstrate the ability of seeds to survive soaking, as well as several ways that plants could have survived the Flood apart from seed.

Critics of the global Flood also insist that single pairs of animals released off the Ark could not have founded lasting populations, and even if they did, would have possessed insufficient genetic diversity to survive and to differentiate into the many varieties observed today. In actuality, recent studies in conservation biology show that small numbers of founders do have most of the genetic potential of the parent population. Furthermore, the inbreeding inherent in the initially small populations need not have posed any problem.

Several examples of lasting populations founded by only a few individual animals are cited, showing how small populations have differentiated and even given rise to new species in astonishingly short periods of time. Indeed, creationists have previously noted that not every species of land animal need have been on the Ark, as many new species could easily have arisen after the Flood. Anti-creationists have denied that species could arise in only 5,000 years and have accused creationists of being even more evolutionistic than the evolutionists in suggesting that this could happen! After dismissing the canard that speciation itself gives support to theories of organic evolution, I have given examples in which new species have arisen in a matter of only centuries, or even decades.

The human immune system (the MHC complex) contains many genetic variants, and anti-creationists have seized upon this as proof that the eight human founders could not possibly have carried sufficient diversity to account for the variation observed in the human race today. I was able to demonstrate the fact that the variants are compatible with a recent population founding only thousands of years ago. A study on mitochondrial DNA (which has given rise to the "African Eve" hypothesis) showed how the "molecular clock" it provides can be greatly accelerated, thus making it compatible with the Biblical time frame.

Overall, I trust that the new book, Noah's Ark: A Feasibility Study,will answer many questions which both scientists and laymen have about the function of Noah's Ark. It shows that the Scriptural teachings on the global Flood and the Ark are completely reasonable. The believer can hold full confidence in the integrity of the word of God.

* Mr. Woodmorappe holds M.S. degrees in biology and geology and maintains active research in these fields.


This "Impact" was converted to HTML, for Web use, from the original formatted desktop article.Comments regarding typographical errors in the above material are appreciated. Webmaster, ICR Systems Administrator Fax: (619) 448-3469

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172 posted on 02/06/2002 12:30:11 PM PST by netman
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A Blast from the Past.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the
"Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list or GGG weekly digest
-- Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

173 posted on 10/06/2006 11:01:51 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (If I had a nut allergy, I'd be outta here. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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