Ammo Types

AArM ^ | FR Post 02-02-02 | Editorial Staff

[vannrox]

Ammo Types Choosing your ammo is as important as choosing your weapon. Choose wisely, these descriptions should help. The following basic ammo types are listed in order of armor penetration, best to worst. AP - Armor Piercing - A hard bullet made from steel or tungsten alloys in a pointed shape typically covered by a thin layer of lead and/or a copper/brass jacket. The lead and jacket are intended to prevent barrel wear from the hard core materials. For gameplay purposes, AP is slightly worse on unarmored targets than FMJ. This is to indicate the hard AP projectiles' tendency not to deform or reliably tumble/yaw. FMJ - Full Metal Jacket - Made with a lead core surrounded by a full covering of brass, copper, or mild steel. These have very little deformation or expansion, but will occasionally yaw/tumble. FMJ is a good choice when you don't know what you will be fighting or possibly if you will be going up against a mix of armor types. JSP - Jacketed Soft Point - In the late 1800s, the Indian Army arsenal at Dum Dum, near Calcutta, developed a variation of the FMJ design where the jacket did not cover the nose of the bullet. The soft lead nose was found to still expand in flesh while the remaining jacket still prevented lead fouling in the barrel. For gameplay purposes, JSP is roughly splitting the difference between FMJ and JHP. It gives more penetration than JHP but has more stopping power than the FMJ. JHP - Jacketed Hollow Point - Soon after the invention of the JSP, Woolwich Arsenal in Great Britain experimented with this design even further by forming a hole or cavity in the nose of the bullet while keeping most of the exterior profile intact. These bullets could theoretically deform even faster and expand to a larger diameter than the JSP. Best used against unarmored targets only, the JHP also has the least over penetration so it is ideal for use around hostages. Glaser Safety Slug - The Glaser Safety Slug dates back to the early '70s. The inventor Col. Jack Cannon named it for his friend Armin Glaser. Over the years, the projectiles have evolved from crude, hand-produced examples to mass-production; however, the basic concept has remained the same: copper jackets filled with bird shot and cover by a crimped polymer endcap. Upon impact with flesh, the projectile fragments, with the birdshot spreading like a minature shotgun pattern. The standard 'Blue' Glaser uses a rather fine birdshot which only gives 5 to 6" of penetration in flesh. The 'Silver' Glaser adds another 1 to 2" of penetration with the use of slightly larger birdshot. Due to the much reduced penetration in flesh, some have theorized that the Glaser would be ideal where over-penetration of a projectile could be hazardous to bystanders. For instance, the Glaser may be stopped by a muscular or upraised arm. However, for the same reasons, the Glaser’s terminal performance can vary dramaticly, producing impressive successes and equally spectacular failures depending on the angle at which the target is struck. Glancing hits on hard surfaces will result in fragmentation, reducing the risk of ricochets. However, the Glaser can penetrate barriers such as drywall, plywood, and thin sheet metal if struck directly. The Blue and Silver Glaser handgun loads are worthless against body armor, penetrating only 5 layers of Kevlar. Training Ammo - The training ammo is portrayed as a cross between the FX paint cartridges like Simunitions and long range simulators like the laser-based MILES. It is intended more for clan practice, and is not suitable for single player usage. It can cause wounds, however. The Hague Accords - The Hague Accords ban the use of expanding projectiles against the military forces of other nations. Some countries accept this as a blanket ban against the use of expanding projectiles against anyone, while the U.S. feels free to use JSP and HP against terrorists and criminals. (The U.S. didn't sign the complete Hague Accords in any case, but still follows its guidelines in military conflicts.) 12 gauge/70mm Shotgun ammo The trick with the buckshot is that you can have a few large pellets or a bunch of smaller pellets. The smaller pellets have a better chance of scoring a hit due to the sheer number of pellets, but the severity of the wound won't be as great as a hit from a larger pellet. The same principle applies to the armor piercing QB-8 (Quadrangle Buck) and flechettes. For purposes of game play, the armor piercing shot will not be as effective as standard buckshot against non-armored targets. (Of course, the standard buckshot is worthless against armored targets except for taking out the legs and arms, hoping for enough wounds to cause incapacitation.) They are listed from largest to smallest, separating the list into non-armor piercing and armor piercing types. The capacities are based on a 70mm length hull. 000 Buck - 8 lead pellets (0.36") 00 Buck - 9 lead pellets (0.33") 0 Buck  - 12 lead pellets (0.32") 1 Buck - 16 lead pellets (0.30") 4 Buck - 27 lead pellets (0.24") QB 8 - 8 pellets (Armor Piercing) - Quadrangle Buck is made from a steel cylinder cut into two layers of four pie-shaped pieces per layer. The numerous sharp edges gives excellent penetration; however, the light weight and poor ballistic shape limits its effective range. Flechettes - 32 flechettes (Armor Piercing) - Flechettes are essentially small steel nails with tiny fins swaged into the rear. Slug - Slugs will pretty well flatten any target, armored or not; however, the issue of over penetration will determine whether you want to take the solid or the hollow-point slug. Slug HP - Hollow-point slugs. Less penetration than regular slugs. Baton - Rubber batons. Used for training. Calibers These ammo types are listed numerically. .30 US Carbine - In 1940, the US Army's Ordnance Department approached Winchester with a light rifle concept. This was to bridge the difference between the .45 ACP and the .30-06. For the cartridge, Winchester recommended a rimless version of their .32 Winchester Self-Loading sized down for .308" projectiles. The resulting cartridge tossed a 110gr projectile at nearly 2000fps from a carbine-length barrel. While derided for lacking stopping power in contrast to the .30-06, the .30 Carbine is more powerful than many common handgun cartridges of similiar size such as the .357 Magnum. .300 Whisper subsonic - Made by necking-up the .221 Remington Fireball case to .308" and using a 240gr Sierra MatchKing, this cartridge will fit and feed from 5.56x45mm NATO magazines. The Whisper is subsonic with about as much power and weight as .45 ACP, but in a thinner bullet which dramatically increases armor penetration. Good against all targets, but is unreliable against heavy armor. .300 Winchester Magnum - A long range sniping round, it is favored by US Navy SEALS and the German Bundeswehr. While not in the same class as the .338 Lapua, it has roughly the same power as 7mm Remington Magnum, and easily exceeds the performance of 7.62x51mm NATO. Good against all targets. .338 Lapua Magnum - Originally designed as a long range sniping cartridge to bridge the ballistic gap between the .300 Winchester Magnum and the .50 BMG. It is in service with GSG9, the British SAS, British Army, Royal Marines, and the Dutch military. An early prototype of the cartridge even saw service with the US Navy SEALs. Good against all targets. .338 Whisper subsonic - Made by necking-up the 7mm Remington BenchRest case to .338" and using a 300gr Sierra MatchKing, this cartridge will fit and feed from 7.62x51mm NATO magazines. Good against all targets, but is unreliable against heavy armor. .357 Magnum - Using a lengthened and strengthened version of the .38 Special case, the .357 Magnum was rapidly accepted by hunters and law enforcement. At the time of its introduction, it was claimed to easily pierce the body panels of automobiles and crack engine blocks. While it has less power than .44 Magnum, it compares favorably to the 10x25mm Norma and .45 ACP, but with better armor penetration. Good against unarmored targets. .357 SIG - Designed to produce .357 Magnum revolver ballistics in a self-loading pistol (automatics), the .357 SIG is roughly a .40 S&W case necked down to .355". Despite the manufacturer's claims, it is not quite as powerful as an actual .357 Magnum, but it exceeds the 9x19mm NATO and falls roughly in-between the .40 S&W and 10x25mm in power. Good against unarmored targets. .376 Steyr - Roughly a shortened 9.3x64mm Brenneke case necked up for .375" projectiles. The cartridge is loaded to give performance approaching that of the .375 Holland & Holland. More power than required for two-legged predators, even those with armored hides. Good against all targets. .40 S&W - Roughly a shorter cased version of the 10x25mm Norma, this round is a step up in power from the 9x19mm NATO in similar sized handguns. Good against unarmored targets. .40 S&W subsonic - Roughly a shorter cased version of the 10x25mm Norma, this round loses about 20% of it's energy when subsonic. This round is a step up in power from the 9x19mm subsonic, and has beaten out the parent 10x25mm subsonic in popularity. Good against unarmored targets. .44 Magnum - A high powered pistol cartridge designed primarily for hunting, the .44 Magnum offers less power than .50 AE and .454 Casull, but much more than .357 Magnum. Good against unarmored targets. .440 CorBon Magnum - The .440 CorBon Magnum is derived by necking down a .50 Action Express case down to accept the same .429" projectiles used in .44 Magnum cartridges. The 240gr .429" projectile has equal sectional density to the 325gr .500" of the .50 AE. However, with equal powder charges, the .440 CorBon can launch the 240gr projectile much faster than the 325gr projectile from the .50 AE. This equals greater energy and penetration against hard and soft targets. .45 ACP +P - The standard U.S. pistol round for about a century, the .45 ACP offers more power than .40 S&W but less than a full-power 10x25mm Norma. The +P designation indicates that the cartridge is loaded to higher pressures and generates higher velocity than normal version of the round. Very effective against unarmored targets while reducing the specter of over-penetration. .45 ACP subsonic - The standard U.S. pistol round for about a century. Typical .45 ACP loads are already subsonic, making them ideal for suppressed weapons. Good against unarmored targets. .454 Casull - A very high powered pistol cartridge designed for taking the largest game animals, the .454 offers more power than .44 Magnum and has superior penetration over the .50 AE. It is the most powerful handgun cartridge in NATO 3. Good against armored targets. .45-70 Government - Adopted by the US Army in 1873 as their standard service rifle cartridge, the .45-70 Government refuses to fade away. Most commercial loadings of the cartridge are constrained by the possibility that someone may attempt to fire a modern loading in one of the 1873-vintage rifles. However, current production rifles from Marlin, Ruger, and Browning can accept pressures nearly twice as high as the original black powder specs. The low velocity of typical .45-70 loads does not lend itself to defeating soft body armor, but the high sectional density of the projectile can result in severe blunt force trauma. .50 Action Express (AE) - A very high powered pistol cartridge, exceeding the .44 Magnum, the cartridge's combination of high velocity and mass results in very favorable penetration characteristics against hard cover and certain types of body armor. It is excellent in close quarters where the first shot is often the only one that counts. 4.6x30mm H&K - H&K's answer to the 5.7x28mm FN. Based on HK's experimental 4.6x36mm cartridge for the HK36 ACR in the early '70s, even retaining its unique Loffelspitz (spoon-nose) projectile. Like the FN entry, the 4.6x30mm has amazing armor penetration, yet recoils less than a 9x19mm pistol cartridge. The smaller HK projectile appears to gives superior penetration over the FN variant, but this also detracts from the permanent wound cavity. Best against unarmored targets, but can be used against armored. 4.92x34mm H&K caseless - A revolutionary round that encases the bullet in a combustible material. There is no brass holding the cartridge together and the "powder" is completely burned upon firing. The round itself is ballisticly similar to the 5.45x39mm Soviet but has better armor penetration. Good against all targets. 5.45x18mm Soviet - Similiar to a necked down 6.35x16mm Browning (.25 ACP) and producing exterior ballistics equal to a .22 rimfire, 5.45x18mm cartridge possesses an impressive ability to defeat body armor. For best gameplay results, one should still restrict its use to unarmored targets only and use multiple shots. 5.45x39mm Soviet - The Soviet's response to the 5.56x45mm NATO cartridge. While the long 5.45mm projectile doesn't fragment like the 5.56x45mm NATO, it is more prone to reliably tumble/yaw. Good against all targets. 5.56mm Steyr Flechette - Introduced for the US Army's ACR trials, the Steyr cartridge uses a plastic case with a small caliber flechette pulled by a 5.56mm diameter sabot. The flechette is launched at a high velocity and the narrow projectile offers excellent penetration. However, this small diameter also reduces the terminal ballistics. Good against all targets but tends to wound more than kill. 5.56x45mm NATO - Adopted by the US military in the 1960s, it later became the NATO standard rifle cartridge in the early '80s, displacing the much more powerful 7.62x51mm. Good against all targets, but has trouble with heavy armor. 5.7x28mm FN - The small high velocity cartridge used in FN's new pistol and SMG appears much like a miniature rifle round. The 5.7mm FN cartridge has amazing armor penetration due to its small projectile size and speed, yet has much less recoil than many pistol rounds. However, don't be tricked into believing that it is as powerful as a rifle cartridge. The ballistics are roughly pistol level with far superior penetration. Best against unarmored targets but can be used against armored. 5.7x28mm FN subsonic - This round loses about 50% of its power due to the dramatic reduction in velocity. While the heavier projectile allows it to retain a portion of its armor penetration, its performance is severely hampered. Use against unarmored targets only and use multiple shots. 7mm Remington Magnum - A long range hunting cartridge, the 7mm Remington Mag has its proponents among the US Secret Service and those not emotionally tied to a .30" projectile. While less powerful than the.338 Lapua, it offers roughly the same power as .300 Winchester Magnum and far more power than the 7.62x51mm NATO. Good against all targets. 7.62x39mm Soviet - The standard Soviet/ComBloc rifle cartridge from the mid-1940s to the mid-'70s, it is easily one of the most widely distributed cartridges in the world due to the distribution of the ubiquitous AK-47 series. Roughly equal in terminal performance with the 5.56x45mm NATO, it is far powerful less than 7.62x51mm NATO. Good against all targets. 7.62x42mm Soviet - Outwardly similiar to the Nagant revolver cartridge, the 7.62x42mm Soviet's case contains not only propellant and a projectile, but a piston sandwiched between the two. When the propellant is ignited, the expanding gas presses the piston forward to expel the projectile. However, the piston remains trapped inside the case, effectively sealing off the escape of propellant gas. The lack of expelled gas and a subsonic projectile results in no firing signature other than the mechanism of the parent weapon. The 7.62x42mm is credited with a maximum effective range of 50m, and the SP-4 armor-piercing cartridge can only defeat a helmet or body armor out to 25m. For best gameplay results, one should still restrict its use to unarmored targets only and use multiple shots. 7.62x51mm NATO - This was the standard NATO rifle round until it's gradual replacement by the 5.56x45mm. It is much more powerful than 5.56x45mm, but has considerable more recoil. It is now typically restricted to sniper rifles and GPMG. Good against all targets, but with lots of over penetration. 7.62x51mm NATO Duplex - Originally designed to counter human-wave attacks, the M198 Duplex load fires two projectiles for one shot. Good against all targets. 7.62x51mm NATO Match - A variation of the 7.62x51mm NATO, the cartridge uses a heavier projectile such as the 168gr or 175gr Sierra MatchKing. The production methods are tweaked to provide a high level of consistency and quality for the cartridges, which pays off in target group sizes. Good against all targets. 7.62x51mm NATO Sabot - The sabot allows a .224" projectile to be fired from the larger 7.62x51mm case. This is designed to dramatically increase the short range velocity and penetration of the round. Good against all targets. Sabot is an archaic French word referring to a wooden shoe. 7.62x54mmR Russian - The standard Russian rifle round from the 1890s to the mid-1940s, it is now confined to sniper rifles and GPMG. The "R" stands for rimmed. A little less powerful than 7.62x51mm NATO, but the target won't quibble over the difference. Good against all targets. 7.65x17mm Browning - A very small pistol round designed for...very small pistols. However, it was the predominant police service cartridge in Europe until the mid-1970s. It is the weakest of the cartridges in NATO 3 and Rogue Spear. Only useful against unarmored targets, and then only in volume. 7.92x57mm Mauser - The standard German service rifle cartridge from 1888 to 1945, the 7.92x57mm (aka 8mm Mauser) has seen wide distribution around the globe through commercial, surplus, and military sales. Serbia continues to use it in sniper rifles and GPMG. It compares favorably to the 7.62x54mmR Russian and 7.62x51mm NATO. Good against all targets. 9x19mm NATO - Invented for the German military at the turn of the century, the wide distribution of the 9x19mm Parabellum/Luger cartridge made it the logical choice for the NATO standard pistol and SMG round. While weaker than .40 S&W, it tends to have an advantage in weight and capacity. Fairly good against unarmored targets, but very weak against armor. 9x19mm NATO subsonic - As suppressed 9x19mm weapons became more popular, purpose made subsonic cartridges were produced. In order to retain a portion of the energy for both weapon function and terminal ballstics, heavier the normal projectiles were substituted. The US Navy SEALs standardized on a 147gr loading due to its accuracy at 50 meters, allowing for reliable head shots from a suppressed MP5N. This round loses about 20% of it's energy when subsonic. However, many US law enforcement agencies have followed the FBI's advice and now use it as standard issue, even in unsuppressed weapons. The cartridge is weaker than .40 S&W subsonic and is roughly equal to the elderly .38 Special. Fairly good against unarmored targets, very weak against armor. 9x21mm Russian - The 9x21mm Russian cartridge is roughly a lengthened version of the 9x18mm Makarov/PMM. Russian police have realized that the 9x18mm cartridges are barely adequate against criminals wearing body armor and driving sturdy Western European automobiles such as Mercedes-Benz. The armor-piercing RG-054 load is credited with defeating NIJ Threat Level IIIA armor out to 50m. While its muzzle energy is lower than the .40 S&W, it has an advantage in weight and capacity. 9x23mm Winchester - Roughly a 9x19mm case lengthened by 4mm, the 9x23mm Winchester has its roots in IPSC competition shooting. John Ricco of CP Bullets had developed the '9x23mm Super' case as an alternative to the .38 Super ACP, whose cases varied dramaticly in strength. The .38 Super case also has the disadvantage of a vestigial semi-rim, which can interlock in magazines. Not to be confused with the externally similiar 9x23mm Bergmann-Bayard (aka 9mm Largo), Ricco's case could be safely loaded to nearly double the chamber pressure of the older cartridges. Since Olin/Winchester produced the cases for Ricco, they saw the commercial potential for using the case in a loaded cartridge. Unfortunately, Olin/Winchester tried to cut Ricco out of his potential royalties from sale of the new 9x23mm Winchester. The resulting lawsuit (won by Ricco) and the poor marketing of 9x23mm pistols by Colt has led to tepid commercial acceptance. Despite these troubles, the 9x23mm Winchester comes closer to the goal of matching .357 Magnum ballistics than the more popular .357 SIG. Good against unarmored targets. 9x30mm Grom - The 9x30mm Grom (Thunder) is roughly similar in dimensions and performance to the commercially unsuccessful 9mm Winchester Magnum. While its light projectile lacks sectional density, there is more than enough velocity to muscle through armor. It is compariable to the .357 Magnum and .30 US Carbine in similiar length barrels. 9x39mm Soviet subsonic - The 9x39mm Soviet is roughly a 7.62x39mm Soviet case necked up for a heavy 9mm rifle projectile. There are competitive loadings from Nikolai Zabelin and Yuri Folov, each optimized for specific roles. It is compariable in performance to the .338 Whisper, but with slightly less penetration. Good against all targets; however, it can be unreliable against heavy armor. 10x25mm Norma - Originally designed for the ill-fated Bren Ten pistol, the cartridge gained another lease on life when it was briefly promoted by the US FBI. Slightly more powerful than .45 ACP, the narrower projectile offers better penetration and greater effective range. Good against unarmored targets. 10x25mm Norma subsonic - When the FBI's Firearms Training Unit found that full-power 10x25mm loads were too powerful for the average user, the subsonic version was developed. This round loses about 40% of it's power when subsonic. Slightly more powerful than .40 S&W subsonic, the 10x25mm subsonic was briefly the general issue sidearm cartridge of the FBI and continues in use in the FBI's MP5/10 SMGs. Good against unarmored targets. 12.7x99mm BMG (.50 BMG) - Originally designed to pierce tank armor in the First World War, the cartridge still serves an anti-materiel round against light armor. It is basically overkill against personnel. Use this for stopping vehicles.

[vannrox]

.... The PC is messing up my posts. I hope that this posts correctly.

This site is associated with a Computer game. But the information, I believe is accurate. I found this to be nicely formatted and it looks like a nice resource.

[vannrox]

bump

[Cobra64]

Thanks for the post. We're moving from NY to NC. Does anyone know that the weapons laws are in NC? We have several long guns (rifles and shotguns), pistols, revolvers, and some black powder revolvers.

[serinde]

It constantly amazes me how many different types of ammo are out there. Thanks for this list.

[JeepInMazar]

Thanks for posting this article about types of ammo. Now if we could learn about types of html formatting. (Actually, it is fine, just indended a bit.)

[spokeshave]

Thanks for the list...now I need to add one case of each type to the one case of each caliber.

It's like when your pistol grip doesn't quite fit...so rather than buying a set of $25 replacement grips you go buy another gun.

[ExSoldier]

This list omits the new frangible ammo which is far superior to the GLASER SAFETY SLUG in any caliber: The MagSafe is far more reliable and proven in the police shootings with which is has been connected. When I carry either my Glock or ParaOrdnance 45 I always stoke the mag in the gun with MagSafes and the backup mag usually has a mixture of Federal Hydra-shok and Hornady HTP or Remington Golden Saber. Usually in 230 gr or perhaps the 185 gr. Same goes for carrying my .40 cal Glock M27. Although I like the 135gr +P in a JHP as backup to the MagSafe.

When I give my classes for the Florida Concealed Weapons Permit, (I'm an NRA Instructor) I'm always careful to point out the consequences of a missed shot...as in potential arrest and a possible wrongful death lawsuit should your round find a different (innocent) target than that which you intended! The MagSafe AND the Glaser go a long way to prevent that by simply powdering instead of richochetting and becoming a problem. Thats why my entire primary mag (the one in the gun) is made up of these rounds alone. The backup is JHP because if you go this long in a firefight your target is likely behind some form of cover and the penetration may be needed.

[alfa6]

Here is another one you might find of Interest :-)

Regards

alfa6 ;>}

[ExSoldier]

North Carolina is still a pretty liberal state...but its far better than New Yawk IMHO! NC recently passed into law provisions for a state concealed weapons permit. I suggest (STRONGLY) that you secure the services of a good NRA certified Firearms Instructor and get the permit. Then go to a gun show near your town and buy a good pistol (I won't suggest one--that selection is every bit as personal as the choice of a spouse!). Next find a local chapter of the International Defensive Pistol Association and join...you'll find lots of new friends and just plain good folks. You'll have fun and become extremely proficient in safely and effectively handling your new "baby" under pressure and in real life situations....or as close as can be approximated.

Whenever possible, carry ALL the time. Why? Well first of all in a rural setting if something bad happens (crime exists in the woods too) you'll be better able to meet the threat successfully. Hard to call the cops on a cellphone in the mountains, and even harder to tell them where exactly you are....Next, well just maybe you'll be the armed citizen on hand to stop the next terrorist attack (Let's Roll?) and if so, you have to be properly equipped and trained to step into the gap. Serious times require serious preparations.

[glc1173@aol.com]

"When I give my classes for the Florida Concealed Weapons Permit, (I'm an NRA Instructor) I'm always careful to point out the consequences of a missed shot...as in potential arrest and a possible wrongful death lawsuit should your round find a different (innocent) target than that which you intended! The MagSafe AND the Glaser go a long way to prevent that by simply powdering instead of richochetting and becoming a problem."

There's a reason why very few police forces issue frangible ammo for daily carry - and it isn't price, since the officers don't pay for it!

Back around 1980, the Justice Dept. did a study on handgun stopping power - and found the 125 gr. JHP in .357 was tops. It also found that ordinary wadcutters gave best stopping power from snubbies - due to muzzle velocity being too low for reliable expansion of hollowpoints.

I'd suggest Speer Gold Dot jacketed hollowpoint instead of frangible ammo. It feeds quite reliably in semiautos. The price is reasonable - and it also provides enough penetration should you have to shoot at an intruder who suddenly ducks behind an inside wooden door of your home.

GUN REVIEWS free from ad-money bias - with emphasis on woman-friendliness of tested guns!

[wcbtinman]

RE: frangible ammo.

If I have to use my weapon, I don't want to piss the bad guy off, I want to kill him.

I follow Clint Smith's advice: .45acp (ball) in a 1911 style weapon. Proven performance over a very wide range of variables.

[glc1173@aol.com]

"RE: frangible ammo. If I have to use my weapon, I don't want to piss the bad guy off, I want to kill him."

Will frangible ammo reliably penetrate even a heavy leather jacket and still deliver real stopping power afterwards? I won't bet my life that it will.

Police experience with 4 Buck in a 12 gauge has found it won't even reliably penetrate leather jackets. (That's why police departments overwhelmingly choose 00 Buck instead.) Anyone want to bet their life that Glasers or MagSafe will do better?

[ExSoldier]

Cops face problems that are far different from the average citizen, and I'm well aware of the 1980 study, which I wouldn't consider definitive in light of techonological advances since then. I live in Miami, so leather jackets aren't a feature of the landscape here...but that point which was raised in another response is a valid one I think. However, I have trained myself to respond to a lethal threat situation (which I practice in IDPA) by putting first round to the chest "A" ZONE and the second to the HEAD "A" ZONE. If the range is point blank out to about fifteen feet I go for the head anyway...the upper head or an eye.

I'll stay with MagSafe for carry but should I ever move to another climate, I'll consider foregoing them in favor of Golden Saber or the ever reliable Hydra-Shok. In fact, I even have about 500 rds of that EVIL "BLACK TALON" in .45 ACP which is about the ultimate out of a Commander or Government model, but I'm not so sure it would develop enough velocity out of my Glock M30 or my ParaOrdnance P10 to expand reliably. Anybody know anything about that?

[Gershom]

Bttt.

[groanup]

Off topic: I recently inherited some thirty year old 12 guage shells. I have always heard that gunpowder deteriorates. Is this ammunition useful? Dangerous? Anyone know?

[glc1173@aol.com]

"I recently inherited some thirty year old 12 guage shells. I have always heard that gunpowder deteriorates. Is this ammunition useful? Dangerous? Anyone know?"

Back about when those shells were made, I was asking the rangemaster about a WWII era .30-06 round. He told me it was as functional as ever.