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Court Decision Reignites 'Who Is A Jew' Issue
Ha'aretz Daily ^

Posted on 02/20/2002 2:16:51 PM PST by RCW2001

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To: rmlew
Non Jews have full rights, although only Jews can emmigrate.

Well, now it looks as though non-Jews can immigrate there too.

21 posted on 02/20/2002 5:30:09 PM PST by Alouette
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To: LarryLied
Most liberal supporters of Israel are and do.

Don't confuse liberal Jews with Israel.
Liberal Jews are undermining Israel, by destroying its economy, destroying its cohesiveness, and pushing for the Suicide, err Oslo Accords.

22 posted on 02/20/2002 5:31:05 PM PST by rmlew
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To: RCW2001
Wednesday, as the Supreme Court reignited the fierce, bone-deep debate over Who is a Jew, granting for the first time formal recognition to Reform and Conservative conversions performed in the Jewish state.

Reform and Conservative perversions

23 posted on 02/20/2002 5:41:25 PM PST by Nachum
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To: GovernmentShrinker
I think perhaps the relevant issue is that the U.S. provides significant financial support to Israel...

And this relates to Conservative and Reform conversions in Israel how........??????????????

24 posted on 02/20/2002 5:44:30 PM PST by SJackson
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To: Sabramerican; Lurking Libertarian; 2sheep; dennisw; Lent; Jeremiah Jr
Secular leftists and non-Orthodox religious leaders hailed the decision as a landmark. Meretz lawmaker Ran Cohen said, "The High Court gave us that which was already obvious - the fact that a Jew that who is converted and registered anywhere in the world as a Jew, Reform or Conservative, will be registered in Israel as well. This is simply normalization of the Jews, and normalization of the state of Israel."
25 posted on 02/20/2002 5:56:16 PM PST by Thinkin' Gal
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To: rmlew
If non-Jews have full rights, then why does everybody have to carry an identity card which lists their nationality as "Jew" or something else (and if one of these nutcases has his way, it will list "Jew, Reform" or "Jew, Conservative" for those Jews who don't meet the theocrats' standards of orthodoxy)?
26 posted on 02/20/2002 6:12:15 PM PST by GovernmentShrinker
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To: GovernmentShrinker
If non-Jews have full rights, then why does everybody have to carry an identity card which lists their nationality as "Jew" or something else (and if one of these nutcases has his way, it will list "Jew, Reform" or "Jew, Conservative" for those Jews who don't meet the theocrats' standards of orthodoxy)?
1. Why does your driver's licence give race? It is an identifying characteristic. Part of the concern is to differentiate between Israeli arabs and Palestinians.

2. Theocrats? The Israeli elite, stating with their Supreme court are anti-religious.

3. The point about Orthodox vs non-orthodox Jews is about CONVERSION. Many Jews believe noting that non-Orthodox conversion is easy, and that Reform Judaism has no respect for Jewish law, question the veracity of any Reform conversion.
Think about it this way. If you were converted to Christianity by a Unitarian minister, should you be considered Baptist?

Finally, while Israel is not a theocracy and its elite are secular, it is tied to Judaism. There is a trinity to Israel
There is the land and country "Medinat Yisrael"
There is the religion of Abraham Isaac and Jacob (Jacob was renamed Israel)
And there is the people/nation, the decendants of Jacob/Israel "B'nei Yisrael"

Just as the French differentiate between French and non-french citizens, so to does Israel. Whi;le non-Jews can be citizens they are not Israeli Israelis.
This differentiation is a little strange in the US, but it is the US whihc is the exception in the world. We are one of the few countries based on an idea instead of a race.
No matten how tolerant another country is, this distinction will confuse leftists and libertarians who seek to impose their view of secular non-racial Americanism on the world.

27 posted on 02/20/2002 6:24:57 PM PST by rmlew
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To: GovernmentShrinker
If oyu think I'm kidding about he leftist comment, note that Ran Cohen is a member of the Israeli Socialist Party and is holding the same line here as Edward Said and Noam Chomsky.

Do you really want to be in bed with those people?

28 posted on 02/20/2002 6:27:36 PM PST by rmlew
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To: rmlew
"Their identity cards will now be worthless," Lau continued. "Tomorrow, if they want to register to get married, the day after if they go to the Immigration Ministry to ask for their basket of benefits or citizenship, they'll be told 'No, you're only thought of as a Jew on the population rolls, while as far as everything else goes, you remain in your goyishness."

The next move appeared to be up to Interior Minister Eli Yishai, leader of the ultra-Orthodox Shas, who was quick off the mark in blasting the ruling as "horrible, dangerous, most grievous, as well as anti-democratic." . . . Yishai said he could not bring himself "to register a non-Jew as a Jew". . . . As one option in the interim, Yishai said, if his office registers a Reform convert as a Jew, his clerks "add next to this the word 'Reform,' so that the whole Jewish people will know that he is Reform."

These people are talking about benefits and identity documents provided by the government, and one of them is the Interior Minister overseeing said documents. This is hardly just a matter affecting people's religious activities.

Why does your driver's licence give race?

It doesn't.

Part of the concern is to differentiate between Israeli arabs and Palestinians.

And why would the Israeli government need to to do that if both Jewish and non-Jewish citizens have "full rights"?

If you were converted to Christianity by a Unitarian minister, should you be considered Baptist

Thankfully, my government would leave that determination up to the Baptists.

It sounds as though many Israelis and Jews have already forgotten about those little yellow stars that were just supposed to be a helpful way of identifying who's Jewish and who's not. These programs tend not to turn out quite the way their purveyors advertise them at the outset. Be glad that Israel is moving away from this sort of thing, however incrementally.

29 posted on 02/20/2002 6:53:49 PM PST by GovernmentShrinker
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To: SJackson
That's a great point, Senator Jackson!
30 posted on 02/20/2002 8:42:59 PM PST by TopQuark
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Comment #31 Removed by Moderator

Comment #32 Removed by Moderator

To: Yehuda
wow...I have to tell a friend of mine who converted to Catholicism when he got married that he is continuing Hitler's work (his kids are being raised Catholic). This will surprise him.
33 posted on 02/20/2002 9:26:17 PM PST by LarryLied
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To: Yehuda
My friend, I understand your rage , at what some ignorant people have said . But, please try to understand that to some of us, this ruling is confusing.

If you wouldn't mind explaining something , I am one of those now very confused . In American , there are various levels ( sects ? ) of Judaism ; all of whom are considered to be practiionors of the Jewish religion : Orthodox, Conservative, Reform , and Hasidim ( Hasidic ? Oh well. the Lubervitchers and the other ones) . Forget , for the moment, about the secular Jews, whose only religion is LEFTISM !

If foreiegn conversions ( I take that to mean in the USA... os that correct ? ) have been okayed, in Israel, this new law is ONLY about conversions in Israel ? Are Conservative and Reform Jews NOT considered to be Jews , in Israel ? Since Jewishness is inherited through the mother, if a woman marries a nonJew, and he converts, is the baby still a Jew, and why wouldn't the man's convesion strengthen Judaism and NOT help to make it less so ?

These are honest questions, my dear friend. I am really out of my depth here and confused. Please help me to understand, and in so doing, help others as well.

34 posted on 02/20/2002 10:01:55 PM PST by nopardons
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Comment #35 Removed by Moderator

To: Yehuda
Many thanks for the explanitory letter. It certainly DID clear up my confusion.

Yes, I know, you have every reason to be angry about the " theocracy , blah, blah, blah ... " !

36 posted on 02/21/2002 1:01:15 AM PST by nopardons
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To: nopardons
Jewish beginbers class
37 posted on 02/21/2002 6:23:42 AM PST by Jeremiah Jr
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To: Yehuda
Have you seen this weeks Hamodia?

Page 2 article,

"Judge: Shabbos Starts at Midnight"
A Tel Aviv Labor Court judge has ruled that Shabbos begins at midnight...

Holy vs. profane, Part...

38 posted on 02/21/2002 10:23:05 AM PST by Jeremiah Jr
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To: Jeremiah Jr
Thanks.
39 posted on 02/21/2002 1:00:55 PM PST by nopardons
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To: nopardons
>Please help me to understand, and in so doing, help others as well.

Click on my Profile for the background history on who is called a Jew, and why.

40 posted on 02/21/2002 3:43:48 PM PST by LostTribe
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