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TWA Flight 800 - "CAN YOU BELIEVE THIS IS A LIE? I CAN'T"
Accuracy In Media ^ | Reed Irvine

Posted on 02/28/2002 9:31:30 AM PST by Asmodeus

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1 posted on 02/28/2002 9:31:30 AM PST by Asmodeus
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To: *TWA800_list;Black Jade;ratcat;OKCSubmariner

2 posted on 02/28/2002 9:39:04 AM PST by Libertarianize the GOP
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To: Asmodeus
I read this 2 nights ago.

Sorry, it was not friendly fire.
Yes, it was some kind of missile.

We are at WAR and it is not appropriate to start flaming the current administration
which has to mop up all the effing stinking excrement that Clinton left behind.

3 posted on 02/28/2002 9:41:11 AM PST by japaneseghost
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To: Asmodeus
bttt
4 posted on 02/28/2002 9:41:53 AM PST by justshutupandtakeit
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To: Asmodeus
I read a story on this subject where the feds admitted to having satellite data on this, and then a week or so later refused to release it on national security grounds.

Our federal agencies have lost all credibility.

5 posted on 02/28/2002 9:47:23 AM PST by steve50
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To: Asmodeus
Interesting post! A little more balance and substantive than the usual sensationalistic tinfoil stuff regarding flight 800.
6 posted on 02/28/2002 9:53:26 AM PST by elfman2
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To: Asmodeus
And now we have about a dozen witnesses who say that the crash of AA 587 near JFK started with a small explosion in the fuselage, before the plane started breaking up, and a surveillance camera photo showing the plane still flying but trailing smoke. And soon there will be the usual Freepers posting that those dozen witnesses are "unreliable".

Yeah. Sure. Just like the one hundred or so "unreliable" witnesses that saw a missile go up and hit TWA 800.

IMHO, we are being scammed about AA 587. By the same government people who scammed us about TWA 800.

Reid is the SECOND SHOE BOMBER.

7 posted on 02/28/2002 10:14:05 AM PST by Magician
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To: japaneseghost
a) I believe it WAS friendly fire, but that requires proof one way or another. DO you want so share something with the rest of the class?

b) I am as big a fan of the present administration as anyone, but the only way to clean up the lack of credibility in the White House, is to stop covering for the previous occupants and be HONEST with the people who elected them. sorry.

8 posted on 02/28/2002 10:53:09 AM PST by Keith
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To: Keith
a) I cannot answer that at this time;

b) sometimes the truth is really nasty and the populace has the right NOT to know;

c) the current administration is busy getting down to business; and

d) W has no interest in causing any more scandals. It's called "CLASS."

9 posted on 02/28/2002 11:03:23 AM PST by japaneseghost
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To: Magician
IMHO, we are being scammed about AA 587. By the same government people who scammed us about TWA 800.

It's hard to believe in big conspiracies requiring many conspirators. It's much easier to believe in small conspiracies requiring only a few conspirators.

10 posted on 02/28/2002 11:07:26 AM PST by ThreeOfSeven
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To: japaneseghost
A war that has not been declared which could go on indefinitely. So when will we get to criticize the current administration?
11 posted on 02/28/2002 11:08:19 AM PST by droberts
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To: ThreeOfSeven
RE: Large conspiracies.

When the government controls the agencies doing the investigating, and the conglomerates control the news media doing the reporting, it isn't hard at all. They've officially maintained the coverup on the JFK assassination for the past 40 years. They're still planting TV programs showing cartoons of TWA 800 breaking up due to a center fuel tank explosion.

12 posted on 02/28/2002 11:24:39 AM PST by Magician
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To: Asmodeus
If there had only been one plane to hit the WTC on 9/11, and no planes down in DC or PA, it would have been called an accident as well.
13 posted on 02/28/2002 11:37:52 AM PST by Mixer
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To: Asmodeus
This article is bunk:
How could the sub have "...debris falling around them on film from the periscope" if it was doing "...an emergency dive, crash dive, to avoid being hit by the debris"? I hate to let common sense ruin a good conspiracy.....
14 posted on 02/28/2002 12:19:38 PM PST by pittsburgh gop guy
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To: pittsburgh gop guy; Rokke; _Jim; SBeck
"This article is bunk:
How could the sub have "...debris falling around them on film from the periscope" if it was doing "...an emergency dive, crash dive, to avoid being hit by the debris"? I hate to let common sense ruin a good conspiracy....."

Makes one wonder if they finished their diet pepsis before or after.

Here's Reed Irvine's original hot scoop:
http://freerepublic.com/focus/fr/619690/posts

15 posted on 02/28/2002 12:35:17 PM PST by Asmodeus
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To: Asmodeus
I see Irvine is in a lying death spiral. Now his "witness" claims his submarine "crash dived" when TWA 800 broke apart above it. Maybe someone can explain how a submarine with a 30 foot draft can "crash dive" in water 120 feet deep. Any submariners out there that can offer some insight into what is involved in a crash dive. Also, can any submariners offer some insight into how common it was for the boat's Corpsman and Comm O to be the only two guys above deck on a surfaced submarine.
16 posted on 02/28/2002 1:44:21 PM PST by Rokke
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To: japaneseghost
Sorry, it was not friendly fire.

You might read TWA 800 "It wasn't terrorists. It couldn't have been."

ML/NJ

17 posted on 02/28/2002 1:47:47 PM PST by ml/nj
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To: Rokke
Well, since I once served on USS TREPANG, I guess I can answer this one. We usually run on the surface until we get to the 100 fathom curve (600 feet for those in Denver). But if something was going on that we didn't want to be a part of, we could submerge in much less than 120 feet of water. Trust me on this ;-)

By the way, TREPANG's weapons shipping hatch, and parts of her crews mess and enlisted berthing are in the Submarine exhibit in the National Museum of American History.

18 posted on 02/28/2002 1:56:20 PM PST by SubMareener
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To: SubMareener
Man, you ought to be able to answer a lot of questions on this one. Here's a few: 1. Would you "crash dive" in 20 fathoms of water. 2. How long does it take to crash dive. 3. Is the top of the sail (where Beer says he was standing) called the bridge. 4. Would the OOD normally be accompanied only by the Corpsman on a surfaced submarine.
19 posted on 02/28/2002 2:07:08 PM PST by Rokke
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To: Rokke
1. Would you "crash dive" in 20 fathoms of water.

The 637 Class boats had very small vents, and no bow planes. A "Crash Dive" would be ordering the vents opened before you left the bridge (see #3).

2. How long does it take to crash dive.

It could take a couple of minutes.

3. Is the top of the sail (where Beer says he was standing) called the bridge.

Yes.

4. Would the OOD normally be accompanied only by the Corpsman on a surfaced submarine.

Normally there would be the OOD and one lookout.

20 posted on 02/28/2002 2:21:34 PM PST by SubMareener
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To: SubMareener
If my memory serves correctly, upon separation from military (or civilian federal) service where the member had access to classified info, the member must sign a document promising not to discuss (or write a book!)about said classified information. If this is violated, former military personnel can be called up for Active Duty for their Court Martial. Even old retired guys. I assume everything a submariner does while underway is classified. Regardless of whether or not the plane went down right over Chief Beer's head, by revealing the location of his sub on a particular night may have violated DoD security policy.
21 posted on 02/28/2002 2:22:15 PM PST by buzzcat
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To: buzzcat
I assume everything a submariner does while underway is classified.

One of the first things they teach you at Navy Boot Camp is that when you assume, you make an ASS out of U and ME ;-)

It is obvious that the Xlintoon administration did not want Flight 800 to be any kind of missile attack, friendly or terrorist, and that they went to great lengths to cover up the reports of those who saw the missile(s). I don't blame the guy for being scared.

22 posted on 02/28/2002 2:29:38 PM PST by SubMareener
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To: SubMareener
I was speaking more of operational security matters having to do with US Navy submarine activity. When you went on a cruise, did you tell your family "I'll call you from Guam in two months!!" I assume not. "Assume" is not a bad word under these circumstances. I reviewed the facts and arrived at what I thought was the likely outcome. I "assume" that the level of OPSEC governing the opearational activities of USAF U-2s is similar to that of USN subs. Former operators of either should not discuss operational matters with internet reporters.
23 posted on 02/28/2002 2:41:32 PM PST by buzzcat
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To: Uncle Bill
Where's Rivero when ya need him?
24 posted on 02/28/2002 2:52:12 PM PST by It'salmosttolate
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bttt
25 posted on 02/28/2002 2:59:27 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe
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To: ThreeOfSeven
It's hard to believe in big conspiracies requiring many conspirators

There were many witnesses who saw a missile but the government and the press called them mistaken or liars when they referred to them at all. Many of the witnesses were told in an intimidating manner that they were mistaken and that was crazy to talk about it at all. It does not need great numbers of people keeping their lips sealed, only the cooperation of the press and the relentless repetition of the official story.

26 posted on 02/28/2002 3:02:18 PM PST by arthurus dot
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To: Magician
"IMHO, we are being scammed about AA 587. By the same government people who scammed us about TWA 800. Reid is the SECOND SHOE BOMBER."

I've never believed the "official" TWA 800 story, but the official AA 587 explanation is much more plausible. There are a lot of questions regarding the mass of the composite rudder the French use on this model of Airbus. Boeing doesn't use composites in this area due to the tendency to flutter under certain conditions, such as what might have happened with AA 587.

I've heard that there might not have been enough separation between it and a 747(?) in front of it and maybe AA 587 encountered some vortices that contributed to the tail flutter. Tail flutter can be incredibly violent and quick and certainly could have caused AA587 to crash.

27 posted on 02/28/2002 3:20:08 PM PST by GBA
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To: droberts
A war that has not been declared which could go on indefinitely. So when will we get to criticize the current administration?

Oh, don't worry. Tiny Tom Puff Dasshole and Little Poco Loco Dickie Gephardt are doing the job for you.

Dumbs!

28 posted on 02/28/2002 3:37:10 PM PST by Ole Okie
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To: SubMareener
Interesting article. I'm suspicious of the guy who calls Irvine one day, and then the next day happens to run into Beers and his story. I'm also curious as to why Irvine wasn't taping Beers at the start of the interview.

On the other hand, the article has a few details that tend to confirm the story. I hope Beers doesn't get depressed and shoot himself five or six times while holding the gun in an oven mitt.

29 posted on 02/28/2002 3:40:01 PM PST by Tymesup
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To: droberts
A war that has not been declared which could go on indefinitely. So when will we get to criticize the current administration?

I don't know. But the Senator from So. Dakota seems to think the time has come. After all, there are elections to be won. To hell with the security of the United States and it's people. With people like little Tommy Dash Hole, God and country come far behind party and power.

30 posted on 02/28/2002 3:53:32 PM PST by mc5cents
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To: buzzcat
I "assume" that the level of OPSEC governing the opearational activities of USAF U-2s is similar to that of USN subs.

There you go, again! ;-)

31 posted on 02/28/2002 4:10:46 PM PST by SubMareener
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To: Tymesup
I hope Beers stays well, also.

However, you forgot the part about not needing his car keys to drive his car to the park. And the part about how his car changes colors while it is parked in the lot. ;-)

32 posted on 02/28/2002 4:14:41 PM PST by SubMareener
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To: SubMareener
Thanks for the info. It's good to have an actual submariner around to verify some of the theories around here. So if we are to believe Beers, we need to accept that the USS Trepang was operating covertly, in a classified exercise, on the surface, a couple miles off the shore of Long Island in broad daylight. That in the time it took for TWA 800 to begin its self-destruction to the time it hit the water (approx 1 minute) the Pepsi sipping OOD was able to absorb the situation and order a crash dive in water he wouldn't normally operate submerged in. And finally, that a submarine that takes a couple minutes to crash dive, did so in time to film pieces of the wreckage hitting the water.

And if we are to believe Irvine, his witness offers conclusive evidence the Navy was involved in a shootdown of TWA 800, although he offers no evidence to support the claim and not even his new witness would state such a thing. In fact, he didn't even claim to see a missile. Irvine manipulates his relatively uninformative interview to try and prove his other unfounded theories. His assumption that the unidentified surface radar tracks are Navy submarines that subsequently dive when TWA 800 blows up, falls apart when you consider the only contact that could match Beer's description of his boat is the "30 knot track". Do you ever recall making 30 knots while surfaced? And if you did, would the OOD be on the bridge accompanied by a bored corpsman sharing his Pepsi's. And then imagine converting that 30 knots into a crash dive. Bow planes or not, that would be a heck of a ride. If the 30 knot track isn't the Trepang, than either the Trepang doesn't show up on radar, or it isn't within 5 miles of the accident site. Either possiblity sinks Irvine's brilliant analysis.

Bottomline, Irvine is a fraud. His witness created a story that is almost impossible to believe, and Irvine bit off on it, hook line and sinker. So much for accuracy in the media.

33 posted on 02/28/2002 5:23:53 PM PST by Rokke
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To: Asmodeus
Saved for my grandchidren to look at. Perhaps they will get the answers.
34 posted on 02/28/2002 5:42:50 PM PST by Cold Heat
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To: Rokke
Almost every sentence you wrote is completely contrary to the facts before you. Beers said their activity was not classified. The submariner here said the Trepang can dive in even shallower water. The TWA crash was not "in broad daylight." The Trepang could have filmed falling debris regardless of the time it took it to dive. There are radar tracks other than the 30-knot track.

Bottomline, you don't know what you're talking about.

But I agree with you on one thing..... Reed does overstate the sailor's statements. The sailor was not saying the Navy did it, and he didn't even say a missile did it. But the sailor did say there were other Navy vessels in the area and he said "I’m uncomfortable with saying what we was actually doing." Why would that be if their activities were not classified?

35 posted on 02/28/2002 6:40:53 PM PST by VectoRama
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Comment #36 Removed by Moderator

To: VectoRama
”Reed does overstate the sailor's statements. The sailor was not saying the Navy did it, and he didn't even say a missile did it. But the sailor did say there were other Navy vessels in the area and he said "I’m uncomfortable with saying what we was actually doing." Why would that be if their activities were not classified?”

From Reed Irvine’s partial transcript:

I: He said they were Navy vessels on a classified maneuver. That’s interesting because he never said-- Oh, he said, “I’ve said that in public,” but I had no record of him...

B: Oh shit. I don’t think anything we did off Long Island was classified.

USS TREPANG (SSN-674)
dp. 4229 tons (surf.), 4762 tons (subm.); l. 292'; b. 31.8';
s. 15k (surf.), 25k (subm.); td. 1300'; a. 4-21" tt. amidships aft of bow;
cpl. 12 officers - 95 enlisted men; cl. "STURGEON"
Keel laid down by Electric Boat Div., General Dynamics Corp., Groton, CT, 28OCT67;
Launched: 27SEP69; Sponsored by Mrs. Melvin R. Laird;
Commissioned: 14AUG70 with Cdr Dean R. Sackett, Jr., in command;
Deactivated: 4JAN99.

37 posted on 02/28/2002 8:17:08 PM PST by Asmodeus
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To: japaneseghost
Sorry, it was not friendly fire.

And the data that confirms this?

38 posted on 02/28/2002 8:30:36 PM PST by jedi
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To: SubMareener
The TWA flight exploded due to an anamoly in the electrical system which somehow blew up the gas tanks. If not, then why have our troops not discovered a videotape of the event and celebration of same at some terrorist camp in Afgahnistan? Our intel guys (or legitimate media) would know by now. I assume all of this, of course (ha ha).
39 posted on 02/28/2002 10:58:14 PM PST by buzzcat
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To: japaneseghost
a) I cannot answer that at this time; b) sometimes the truth is really nasty and the populace has the right NOT to know; c) the current administration is busy getting down to business; and d) W has no interest in causing any more scandals. It's called "CLASS."

Total BS.

And by the way, we are not at war.

40 posted on 02/28/2002 11:23:49 PM PST by thepitts
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To: japaneseghost
c) Convenient, that.

d) It's called "RE-ELECTION"

41 posted on 02/28/2002 11:37:08 PM PST by Pistias
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To: Rokke
Well, I know Reed Irvine, and I don't know you, so I can tell you Reed is the real thing, and not a fraud, but I don't know about you.

I also agree with Beers that "nothing we did off Long Island was classified." The "classified mission" BS was used by the Govermint to keep these believable eye witnesses from becoming public.

How you jumped to the conclusion that TREPANG was the 30 knot track, I don't know. There were other radar tracks that we not identified.

The real "bottom line" is that there is a Government coverup of the cause for the Flight 800 crash.

42 posted on 03/01/2002 12:39:35 AM PST by SubMareener
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To: SubMareener
I'm not sure who said this but it is true: "All that is necessary to commit the perfect crime is to be in charge of the investigation."

I refer you to the Vince Foster matter and others where those that should have been investigating were put off by "higher authority'.

43 posted on 03/01/2002 4:04:35 AM PST by mc5cents
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To: GBA
The disturbing aspect of the AA 587 crash is that ALL of the witnesses who watched the airplane climb out over the beach and had a clear view of the plane, say exactly the same two things:

1. The first visible sign of trouble was a small explosion at the root of a wing, most saying it was the right wing.

2. The wing and tail departed the aircraft at just about the same time. A boater with the closest view of events actually thought that the wing had STRUCK the tail assembly as it departed, both events being so close in time to each other.

In addition to the above, a bridge surveillance camera with a distant view of the crash shows the aircraft TRAILING SMOKE, which would not be a result of the tail departing the aircraft as the cause of the crash.

Also, I have a great deal of trouble understanding how the aircraft broke up completely in the air as a result of loss of the fin and rudder. Loss of control and crashing, yes. But not total destruction of the aircraft IN THE AIR.

Maybe the CIA will come up with a couple more ridiculous cartoons purporting to show how all the above took place, as they did for the benefit of every TV program that has been shown dealing with the crash of TWA 800.

44 posted on 03/01/2002 5:27:01 AM PST by Magician
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To: Magician
bump
45 posted on 03/01/2002 5:31:44 AM PST by Non-Sequitur
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To: SubMareener
Actually it is probaly more like the Navy.
46 posted on 03/01/2002 6:06:43 AM PST by chouli
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To: Asmodeus
For many years, I held off a friend of mine on this subject. He is a retired Admiral who says that he would not believe that several shiploads of sailors would keep something like this secret. Someone would talk. Well, now someone has talked.

Another piece of information making the rounds among Medical Corps types is that the man who actually launched the missile is presently in a mental institution. This comes from a physician whose security clearance is so high that he has worked in the most secret medical facility maintained by the military (sorry, I won't say which one it is). I tend to believe anything this person says, but certainly can't prove it.

47 posted on 03/01/2002 7:00:13 AM PST by Magician
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To: VectoRama
"Almost every sentence you wrote is completely contrary to the facts before you."

Let's take a look at that.
Your first point "Beers said their activity was not classified."
I didn't say he did. That was Irvine's input. But Beers did say what I highlighted in bold print. He says his sub was a couple miles off Long Island and it is a fact that when TWA 800 exploded it was still daylight.
Your next point "The submariner here said the Trepang can dive in even shallower water."
Actually, what he said is it could submerge in shallower water. According to Beers' buddy, Beer's said the sub crash dived. Big difference.
Your next point "The TWA crash was not "in broad daylight.""
Really? Several eyewitnesses reported observing TWA 800 before it exploded. One even reported watching the right wing fall off. It must have been light enough for eyewitnesses to see an airliner at 13,000ft while standing at least eight miles away on Long Island. And surely if you can see an airliner 8 miles away, you must be able to see a surfaced submarine a couple miles away. Are you saying eyewitnesses might be wrong?
Next point: "The Trepang could have filmed falling debris regardless of the time it took it to dive."
I suppose. But how often does a submarine use its periscope on the surface?
Final point: "There are radar tracks other than the 30-knot track."
Sure, but find me one that matches Beer's description other than the 30 knot track. There isn't one.

My final point...I don't believe anything I wrote is contrary to the facts. What is clear is that the "facts" as presented by Irvine are either contridictory or impossible and for the most part, assumptions based on his understanding of the facts. Again, I say, if his goal is accuracy in media, he is a fraud.

48 posted on 03/01/2002 1:21:42 PM PST by Rokke
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To: SubMareener
With regard to Irvine being the "real thing", I guess you'd have to define the real thing. What exactly does he do? Reveal unsupported testimony from unwilling witnesses?
As far as the "classified" thing, I believe that is all the creation of a group of professional conspiracy artists who make a living off this stuff (ie Reed Irvine). Note that he is the only one claiming there was a classified exercise.
With regard to the 30 knot track...we all read the same article. It is very clear the Trepang was supposedly directly below TWA 800. In fact, it was so close the OOD supposedly felt the need to "crash dive" to avoid the debris. There isn't another track within five miles of the crashsite when TWA 800 exploded. What other track could possibly represent the sub?
49 posted on 03/01/2002 1:31:41 PM PST by Rokke
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To: Rokke
I suppose. But how often does a submarine use its periscope on the surface?

Again you are showing your ignorance of these things. A submarine almost always has its periscope up on the surface, especially in busy traffic areas. Both to keep track of surface contacts and navigation aides.

Here is the radar map, the 33 knot target is not TREPANG, or any other submarine. While submarines may be able to exceed 25 knots underwater, they are much slower on the surface.


50 posted on 03/01/2002 2:27:03 PM PST by SubMareener
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