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Cabin owners 'deeply alarmed' by forest plan
The Sacramento Bee ^ | (Published March 1, 2002) | By Evelyn de Ghetaldi and Liz Arnold

Posted on 03/01/2002 9:37:48 AM PST by farmfriend

Edited on 04/12/2004 5:33:32 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

The proposed Sierra Nevada framework is regularly characterized as a dispute between pro- and anti-logging interests. However, because the plan would restrict human activity more than any previous forest plan, recreational interests, including cabin owners, would be adversely affected if this framework is upheld. Members of the National Forest Homeowners are deeply alarmed.


(Excerpt) Read more at sacbee.com ...


TOPICS: Editorial; Front Page News; Government
KEYWORDS: biofraud; geopolitics; govwatch; landgrab; nwo
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When I find my letter to the editor on this subject, I'll link it.
1 posted on 03/01/2002 9:37:48 AM PST by farmfriend
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To: Carry_Okie;sasquatch;forester;SierraWasp;editor-surveyor;Grampa Dave;Jeff Head;B4Ranch...
Pinging. Did I misspell anybody? : )
2 posted on 03/01/2002 9:42:27 AM PST by farmfriend
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To: farmfriend
SacBee Letters to the Editor
Published 5:30 a.m. PST Thursday, Feb. 7, 2002

Historical forest management

Re "Sierra Nevada games," Your Views, Jan. 17: The Sierra Nevada Framework needed reviewing. There have been repeated calls by environmentalists to limit logging in the Sierra Nevada. They throw out rhetoric about the forest being overlogged and overgrazed, but the facts say otherwise.

Wildlife biologist George Gruell just published his book "Fire in Sierra Nevada Forests -- A photographic Interpretation of Ecological Change Since 1849" (Mountain Press). In it, he shows that contrary to environmentalists' claims of overlogging, the forests are extremely overgrown.

Native American tribes burned more than 1 million acres a year to keep forests thin and meadows large. Now forests throughout California are dying from overcrowding. In some areas there are more than 300 trees per acre that naturally supported fewer than 20.

Until people stop listening to the environmental fear mongers and start looking at what was and what is, we will continue to have superhot fires that kill the very forests we desire to protect.

- Maggie Bloom, Sacramento
Legislative Director
California State Grange

3 posted on 03/01/2002 9:52:27 AM PST by farmfriend
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To: farmfriend; fishhawk; trout stalker
Thanks, this language is really scary. It shows the real intent of the enviral elite Nazis to get all of us out their purposed Druid Cathedrals:

"Ephemeral stream" is any trickle of water located anywhere snow is melting and flowing downhill. The proposed language states that human activity is not allowed within 150 feet of an ephemeral stream. Cabins are a human activity, as are camping, hiking, fishing, mountain biking and so on. Almost every cabin in the Sierra is surrounded by melting snow in the spring.

No human activity could occur within 300 feet of a meadow, stream bank, lake or river

That no human activity could occur within 300 feet shows their complete hatred of the average American. As a fly fisher, who never litters, catches and releases and leaves an area cleaner than when I came in (I pack out litter). I could be prevented from going withing 300 feet of a stream bank, lake or river. That makes it impossible to fish!

4 posted on 03/01/2002 9:52:36 AM PST by Grampa Dave
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To: Grampa Dave
As an active Scouter, I have a problem with this myself.

BTW, I admire anyone people's ability to fly fish. I would move more towards making the flies.

5 posted on 03/01/2002 9:58:07 AM PST by farmfriend
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To: farmfriend
You, too, can live on a leased lot on gummint land. It's no way to build a family estate, but it could be better than renting an apartment.
6 posted on 03/01/2002 9:58:50 AM PST by RightWhale
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To: Grampa Dave
anyone people's

Great English there. Sometimes I wonder. First I misspell people's names, then I write funky. What next?

7 posted on 03/01/2002 10:00:05 AM PST by farmfriend
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To: farmfriend
bump
8 posted on 03/01/2002 10:07:24 AM PST by NorseWood
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To: Grampa Dave
When I moved to Sacramento I heard a greatdeal about the "Vernal Pools" , which were described as veritable edens, and resulted in large areas being off limits to development ( although already purchased and taxed accordingly ). So one spring day I went to visit them and saw what for all the world to my midwestern eyes were - puddles. Some large puddles, but puddles non the less. Get one of those on your property and you were screwed.
9 posted on 03/01/2002 10:15:07 AM PST by Kozak
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To: RightWhale
You, too, can live on a leased lot on gummint land. It's no way to build a family estate, but it could be better than renting an apartment.

How exactly does one do this?

-bc

10 posted on 03/01/2002 10:21:43 AM PST by BearCub
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To: BearCub
For example, go to Alaska, stake out a lease lot on a remote site within the designated state lease lot area, and begin paying the annual fee. Generally the lease term is five years at a time. This lease may continue to be renewed until the state concludes the program, which it may do at any time, then you will have to move.
11 posted on 03/01/2002 10:26:01 AM PST by RightWhale
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To: RightWhale
I'm familiar with some of these cabins. While some are cute, and no doubt historic, I don't see them as much more than a special priveledge for a select few on our public lands. A Scout or church camp would be different matter because of the larger numbers being able to use the facility.

What concerns me more about forest policy is the closing of roads, trails, or otherwise limiting access to areas the the public used to enjoy for hiking, camping, hunting, or whatever.

12 posted on 03/01/2002 10:39:22 AM PST by BigBobber
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To: Kozak; Sierra Wasp
When my oldest son was graduated from college, we went to the Sierra foothills for some fishing in a lake in February/early March.

I never knew what a Vernal Pool was until that trip. I noticed barbed wire around these colored puddles. The barbed wire was to keep the rancher's cattle off of these pools.

My son explained to me what the Vernal Pools were and the cost to those ranchers.

Later in May we drove up those same roads to go fly fishing in a river up in that area. The fences were still there. No Vernal pools, just dust bowls where the colored puddles were.

13 posted on 03/01/2002 10:39:42 AM PST by Grampa Dave
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To: farmfriend
bttt
14 posted on 03/01/2002 10:40:14 AM PST by Free the USA
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To: BigBobber
There is no question that vast areas of the West and Alaska have been closed to entry, a trend that was well underway before the Mining Law of 1872. Whether the government has the right do this legally and whether it is proper to do so are separate issues.
15 posted on 03/01/2002 10:54:46 AM PST by RightWhale
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To: Grampa Dave
No person save Forest Service personnel may enter public forests. Forest Service personnel must file an environmental impact statement on each occasion before entering public forests.

Your tax dollars at work.

Have a nice day.

16 posted on 03/01/2002 11:31:35 AM PST by Thud
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To: Thud
Yeah, have a nice day just stay the hell out of any National Forest, regardless of what you might want to do!
17 posted on 03/01/2002 11:33:14 AM PST by Grampa Dave
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To: farmfriend

The proposed Sierra Nevada framework

There's a high probability that whoever wrote and proposed the Sierra Nevada framework is insane and should probably be hospitalized. I'm serious. But then again, I also think 99% of members of congress have violated their oath of office at least once and most of them have several times.

18 posted on 03/01/2002 11:42:40 AM PST by Zon
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To: farmfriend
"We are sensitive to the interdependence between the family owned ranches and grazing in the Natl Forest."

"We will engage homeowners associations, offroad vehicle groups, the ski industry, and others to assure that we have carefully considered their concerns."

Blackwell's letter to the Chief

19 posted on 03/01/2002 12:55:04 PM PST by Ben Ficklin
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To: Ben Ficklin
Thanks, I needed that.
20 posted on 03/01/2002 1:06:16 PM PST by farmfriend
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To: farmfriend
"Ephemeral stream" is any trickle of water located anywhere snow is melting and flowing downhill. The proposed language states that human activity is not allowed within 150 feet of an ephemeral stream.

The gutter on the eve of the cabin is technically an ephemeral stream. Sigh.

Today's spelling = A+
Math tomorrow?
21 posted on 03/01/2002 1:15:06 PM PST by sasquatch
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To: farmfriend
ENVIROSCHIZOPHRENIA--don't tell me this ain't some kind of disease!
22 posted on 03/01/2002 1:47:25 PM PST by INSENSITIVE GUY
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To: sasquatch
Math tomorrow?

I may have made "D"s in spelling but I made "A"s in Trig.

23 posted on 03/01/2002 1:49:00 PM PST by farmfriend
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To: INSENSITIVE GUY;SierraWasp
ENVIROSCHIZOPHRENIA

Waspman, a new word.

24 posted on 03/01/2002 1:50:20 PM PST by farmfriend
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To: farmfriend
"A"s in Trig.

Cool; I'n an engineer.
25 posted on 03/01/2002 4:46:49 PM PST by sasquatch
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To: farmfriend;Grampa Dave;sasquatch;Carry_Okie;Phil V.
"ENVIROSCHIZOPHRENIA Waspman, a new word."

Shore nuff! I rites phunky alla the danged time!

Hay! The "Sierra Nevada Framework," has never been nuthin but a dad blamed "Sierra Nevada FRAME-UP!"

Hay! It was forced on the USFS over the last 10 years by the same people that used "ballot box planning" to convert road rage over traffic congestion, coupled with a seige of litigation, into striking down the GREENEST master plan a County government had ever adopted in CA's history!

This used to be a pretty "good natured" place. I noticed a discussion of Prop #40 today by city slickers on the radio and they talked about how your drinking water quality MUST be improved with all of that bond money to buy up that land that their water runs through to keep it clean.

They talked as if they were desperate to get everyone off this land up here to protect their precious water quality. The idiots will never understand they been drinkin water that's been through someone else's kidneys, upstream, all of their lives.

I guess they really still believe that bears don't poop or pee in the woods. They wish we humans didn't exist up here and I call that a "hate crime!" Wildlife don't use septic systems!!! (Of course, neither do enviro-rafters who act like wildlife quite often)

26 posted on 03/01/2002 4:54:48 PM PST by SierraWasp
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To: farmfriend
"Ephemeral stream" is any trickle of water located anywhere snow is melting and flowing downhill. The proposed language states that human activity is not allowed within 150 feet of an ephemeral stream. Cabins are a human activity, as are camping, hiking, fishing, mountain biking and so on. Almost every cabin in the Sierra is surrounded by melting snow in the spring.

This makes no sense to me at all, so I wonder if either the paper is misreading the law, or (probably just as likely) this is the law, however inane it may be. Ephermeral streams are a nearly constant prescence in a mountainous area, with little ones down every hollow on ridge-slope. Such a law would exclude human prescence from most of the mountains- probably the goal, aye?

27 posted on 03/01/2002 5:00:20 PM PST by Cleburne
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To: BigBobber
Don't expect the forestry to be friendly with any group.

The forest dept. burned a Boy Scott lodge because THEIR survey showed its foundation was two feet within Forest property. This was in the Sierra's in the early 80s. They have no respect for private ownership, use or recreation of the land. They are the privilege few and all others get out. I had owned one of those cabins for 8 years down here in Los Angeles. This plan has slowly been formed to get rid of all private ownership and private use of forestry land over the last twenty years whether it church camps, road side cafe, restaurants, cabins, etc. Soon, they've also been trying to force adjoining private land owners to sell to government as their eco regulations extend past forestry boundaries. If you want to experience life in a police state, own one of these cabins.

The cabin owners do more to protect the forest and lives than those professional eco-Nazis. Forestry personnel go home when it gets dark. We were the ones that called in the road accidents, fires, looting and vandalism of Government property (usually to the Sheriff dept, since the Forestry only had an answering machine from 5 pm to 9 am). I got the message that it was time to leave when we had a small brush fire threaten our cabins and the Forestry pulled their equipment back to protect the road and their water tanks and were willing to let us burn. Fortunately, Cabin owners have learned not to expect help from anyone in a uniform and we had our own fire hoses. As a result, my neighbor had a scorched carport (which the forestry initially forbade him to fix, but he did anyway).

Now our local forest require a parking permit to stop within the forestry boundaries, so don't break down if you're traveling through any forest land in southern Calif. and don't expect help from any ranger with a gun on his belt and ticket book in his back pocket.

28 posted on 03/01/2002 5:17:35 PM PST by Traction
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To: sasquatch
; I'n

See what happens when you talk to me, you start spelling funny. Civil Engineering was my goal at the time. I think I will remain an advocate at this point. What kind of Engineering are you in.

29 posted on 03/01/2002 5:32:25 PM PST by farmfriend
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Comment #30 Removed by Moderator

To: SierraWasp
I noticed a discussion of Prop #40 today by city slickers on the radio and they talked about how your drinking water quality MUST be improved with all of that bond money to buy up that land that their water runs through to keep it clean.

Click here for the California State Grange's policy on the Propositions.

Proposition 40

Amount
$1,275.0 Land, Air, and Water Conservation

$1,057.5 Parks and Recreation

$267.5 Historical and Cultural Resources Preservation

$2,600.0 Total

31 posted on 03/01/2002 6:06:07 PM PST by farmfriend
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To: farmfriend
Old make a nickel gineer. (msme Palo Alto)
32 posted on 03/01/2002 6:08:17 PM PST by sasquatch
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To: Thud
the united states forest service ???? around here the most prominant bumper sticker "BEWARE OF THE GREEN GESTAPO" this organization thinks that their crap doesn't stink and your best interest is, is not to cross their path
33 posted on 03/01/2002 6:15:49 PM PST by mt tom
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To: farmfriend
Hi, thank you for the ping and thread.
34 posted on 03/01/2002 6:43:58 PM PST by Snow Bunny
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To: farmfriend
BTTT
35 posted on 03/01/2002 6:45:46 PM PST by Fiddlstix
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To: Grampa Dave
"I could be prevented from going withing 300 feet of a stream bank, lake or river. That makes it impossible to fish!"

I thought the top flycasters, such as yourself, could land a mayfly in a puddle from that distance...

36 posted on 03/01/2002 6:59:11 PM PST by okie01
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To: sasquatch
A dairy farmer in Merced County tried to make some money from one of his frequently flooded dairy pastures about 5-10 years ago, by making it into a duck pond during the rainy season, and renting access to hunters.

But, when he tried to level it afterwards to return it to pasture, the feds told him the whole place was now a federally protected wetland. And couldn't be used as a pasture even when bone-dry.

37 posted on 03/01/2002 7:16:42 PM PST by Thud
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To: Cleburne
"This makes no sense to me at all, so I wonder if either the paper is misreading the law, or (probably just as likely) this is the law, however inane it may be."

IMO the press is incapable of reporting accurately on any legal issue more complicated than a jury saying guilty or not guilty.

38 posted on 03/01/2002 7:18:56 PM PST by Thud
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To: Thud
A bit o' looking reveals this buffer zone on ephemeral streams will qualify for those drainages that show permenant scour signs (ie channel washed from the leaves, down a bit into the soil), and would extend the said distance away as a "ripirarian zone". All human activity would not be excluded, however, but it would be restricted I gather. Hiking, fishing and the like would probably remain. One would think it would have to, as the "gray zones" (the areas around streams designated as a buffer) comprise half of the entire Sierra landscape! It's not as terrible as this article makes it be, but it still isn't good at all.
39 posted on 03/01/2002 7:39:42 PM PST by Cleburne
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To: farmfriend; Snow Bunny
Well Maggie, it looks to me that Camp David will be closing under these rules. I wonder if there is going to be an Executive Order that exempt it from the law.
40 posted on 03/01/2002 7:58:38 PM PST by B4Ranch
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To: B4Ranch
Aren't environmental rules only for the West???
41 posted on 03/01/2002 9:07:05 PM PST by farmfriend
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To: RightWhale; abner; aculeus; alaskanfan; alloysteel; Always Right; America's Resolve; Angelique...
"You, too, can live on a leased lot on gummint land."

The true statist point of view.

First, there is no such thing as government land. - The constitution forbids government holding of land, other than military reservations, and the District of Columbia.

The National Forests are totally outside the provisions of the constitution, and at this time violate the unconstitutional statute that created them in the first place.

If you had any knowledge at all, you would realize that these cabins are not in any way substitutes for an apartment. They are located far from jobs, schools, and supermarkets, and most are not suitable for year around habitation.

42 posted on 03/02/2002 6:28:41 PM PST by editor-surveyor
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To: farmfriend
Watch Prop. 40 pass in the People's Republic of Kalifornia which will only help accellerate moving people out of the forests.
43 posted on 03/02/2002 7:18:53 PM PST by hattend
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To: editor-surveyor
First, there is no such thing as government land. - The constitution forbids government holding of land, other than military reservations, and the District of Columbia.

Just to clarify, the Constitution does not forbid the governments of the States from holding land. In fact, the equal footing doctrine dictates that the Federal government should have quit-claimed the lands of the territories when they became states. It didn't, in direct violation of the Constitution. Why? Congress was funding operations from land sales.

Congress effectively diluted the citizenship of those states when they did not quit-claim the land. As far as I am concerned, since the adoption 14th Amendmen,t this has been a violation of the equal protection clause.

44 posted on 03/02/2002 8:56:20 PM PST by Carry_Okie
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To: SierraWasp
I guess they really still believe that bears don't poop or pee in the woods. You could always try pointing out to them with the Ranger stations closed and no more tourist rest facilities the bear will have no where else to go but in the woods but reason and logic have no relationship to these Nazis.

Stay well - Stay safe - stay armed - Yorktown

45 posted on 03/02/2002 9:51:08 PM PST by harpseal
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Comment #46 Removed by Moderator

To: ratcat
It seems that all over the United States rural communities are under siege.

That's a fact. Read Carry_Okie's Book if you want to understand who is behind the siege, why and how they are accomplishing it.

47 posted on 03/03/2002 2:15:59 AM PST by snopercod
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To: editor-surveyor
BTTT!!!!!
48 posted on 03/03/2002 2:26:11 AM PST by E.G.C.
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To: sasquatch;farmfriend
We have ephemeral streams here in North Carolina, too.

Property Rights Rally - Brevard, NC from Sept. 2000.

49 posted on 03/03/2002 2:26:20 AM PST by snopercod
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To: farmfriend; Jeff Head
"No human use..."

Right there the plan should be challenged on its constitutionality. WE OWN THIS LAND!

Our tax dollars paid for it, and pay to maintain the parks. The executive branch cannot unilaterally declare it off-limits...the Fifth Amendment takings clause requires that the owners make that decision via the legislative branch.

I truly hate what this country is becoming.

50 posted on 03/03/2002 2:28:06 AM PST by Abundy
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