Posted on 03/07/2002 6:07:31 AM PST by iav2
Hi. There were two ancient Christian churches and I belong to the other, and older, one. That's not to say that mine is completely innocent of smaller excursions into power-hunger and destruction, as the Russian church got fairly nasty at one time too.
At any rate, what I think it proves is that we Christians are not perfect and are subject to falls.
And this was somehow better?
I imagine that's one drawback of not having matured in the Western tradition.
All Muslims are decidely not the same. Some are decidedly splendid fellows. What I say is that all too many of them have sufficiently demonstrated to me that they ARE NOT splendid fellows. Until the splendid fellows among the Muslims settle the hash of the others, I say keep all of them the heck away from the West.
What would you have us do. OWK, risk death while WE sort the good from the bad? We are not dealing with Chiricahua raids here dude. There are 2 or 300 Million Muslims out there that require serious sorting out. Get out. Sort out. Reapply as residents of Christendom when you're done.
If you want to stay, take a positive step right now: stand on your hind legs and insist that the Muslim nations treat Christians as well as I am treating you.
I have done my share of wading into muslim-bashing to be sure, but in this post I was referring to the terrorist ones.
What I do believe is that the moderates are more at risk for leaders to convert them over to the terrorist types than Christians or atheists or Hindus.
As opposed to what?
Killing them all indiscriminately?
I'm sorry Kenny, but if we wish to claim the mantle of moral action, then we MUST sort out the good from the bad.
Hey, I thought you were trained in science. Aren't you being a bit oversensitive here? All I did was report what the website said.
I can go with this. Let's start with the mosque in Bridgeview Illinios, which has photos of jewish hearts wrapped in American flags with knives through them, on the walls. And sells terrorist videos. What should we do in this particular case, do you think?
Then let's think about the mosque in Potomac, Maryland, just a few miles from the White House, where the acts of the terrorists on 9-11 were commemorated and honored. Where do we draw the line on this situation? Was it ok for them to honor their terrorist friends who died and what they did? So are these "good" muslims or not? I am asking for your opinion, no sarcasm here. In my church they don't teach anything but love your neighbor and bless your enemies.
I assumed you understood my criticism to be directed at the post, not you.
This I believe to be true. Said by Steven Emerson. here
The problem is what to do about it. Do we send police into mosques and have them check for those lovely videos and even listen to the speeches for hate content?
I have four children. Why can't THEY just leave us alone to live our lives in peace? Why do they have to spew hatred and condone killing of "fellow" Americans? Prior to 9-11 I was in complete agreement that our foreign policy was too intrusive. I voted for Buchanan. Where does your concern for respect toward others begin to include the average American?
Have you seen the RAWA page? Let's do have respect for others, and let it begin with muslims. Muslims in this country, in Illinois and Maryland.
As with ALL situations, we draw the line at the violation of the rights of others.
Was it ok for them to honor their terrorist friends who died and what they did?
Do I think they were good men to honor murderers? No, I don't. Do I think they were violating the rights of others by doing so? No, I don't. We live in a land which is supposed to respect the notions of rights and liberty. In such a land, the state may not act to punish people for their thoughts. Only for their deeds.
So are these "good" muslims or not?
They don't sound like good Muslims to me. They sound like pretty scummy folks. But again, do you hold ALL Muslims accountable for their foolishness? Or do you attribute the blame where it belongs?
I am asking for your opinion, no sarcasm here. In my church they don't teach anything but love your neighbor and bless your enemies.
I'm not much in the church department, but I say love your neighbor, and CRUSH your enemies. But you'd better make damned sure the one you're crushing is your enemy if you want to be able to claim that your actions are moral.
How do you know if someone is your enemy?
If he moves to initiate force against you, he is your enemy, and his actions justify the application of restraining and/or punative force in your defense.
But the actions of an evil Muslim fundamentalist in New Jersey, do not morally justify the application of force against an otherwise peaceful Muslim in some jerkwater town in Turkey, just because he happens to be Muslim.
Has it occurred to you that Muslims all over the Middle East ask precisely the same question about us?
The founders of this nations warned us strongly about avoiding foreign entanglements, and interventionist foreign policy.
And like most of the wisdom of the founders... it was ignored with dire consequences.
Since you're a humane man and a splendid fellow, you'll probably want to minimize collateral damage amongst your American Christian and Jewish neighbours, so just do the sort-out of the evil Muslims and the good in an already Muslim part of the planet. You don't even have to kill or maim them, as your co-religionists are doing today to Christians in The Sudan, East Timor, and The Phillipines, just bring them to sweet reason and get them under control. Given your glowing descriptions of Muslim sophistication, this should not overtax the resources of Islam. Perhaps a fatwa or two would do it.
I plainly can see that you have had, with the exception of formal Logic, some Western education, You are also polite enough, and do adequately represent the Muslim point of view. So, I would be happy to meet you in public debate.
Meet me in the First Congregationalist Church of Riyadh Hall, right after Easter Services.
Agreed. The problem seems to be, however, that they have taken advantage of our freedoms to plot against us in our very own towns and cities. And to collect money for their terrorist friends in other countries, as well.
So, "otherwise peaceful" may be a deception and what if it is not in Turkey but right here. Like that one guy who was a professor at the University in Florida and then ended up in Syria as the head of some jihad group. While he was here he was fund raising for his planned jihad activities. Got all kinds of govt funds for his Muslim Cultural Centre or something like that, then took them home to buy arms.
At what point is suspicion ok when it comes to anyone professing the muslim faith? How long do we wait?
If we do not have the manpower to oversee every muslim, how do we detect which ones are actually just being muslims, and which are hiding behind a facade of being peaceful muslims?
You seem to be somewhat confused.
I'm not Muslim.
Well said.
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