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Pim Fortuyn Killer Linked To Earlier Death Of Environment Worker (Possible conspiracy)
London Times ^ | May 12, 2002

Posted on 05/11/2002 7:04:41 PM PDT by Shermy

THREE days before Christmas 1996, Chris Van de Werken, an environment officer in the sleepy little town of Nunspeet, 40 miles east of Amsterdam, went jogging in the woods near his home. He never came back.

Alerted by gunshots, passers-by found Van de Werken's body on a cycle path. Although dozens of people were questioned, no motive was established and nobody was charged. In April 1997 the inquiry was closed. Five years later it has been reopened.

This weekend, as the Netherlands mourned Pim Fortuyn, the populist right-wing politician, police were investigating links between his assassination last Monday and what became known in Nunspeet as the "Christmas murder".

Volkert van der Graaf, 32, a militant animal rights campaigner who was arrested immediately after killing Fortuyn, had also come into conflict with Van de Werken.

Yesterday he was still refusing to give police any explanation for the shooting of Fortyun. His girlfriend Petra who gave birth to a daughter last autumn, has moved out of their small home in Harderwijk, eight miles from Nunspeet. His mother Anneke has been told by lawyers to say nothing.

The picture that has emerged from interviews with those who know van der Graaf, however, is of a gifted but obsessive man so fanatical about the rights of animals that he was prepared to take human life.

Why he chose to take Fortuyn's remains a puzzle as the Dutch prepare for elections on Wednesday. The latest polls predict that the party launched three months ago by the former sociology professor could become the second strongest in the new parliament, with almost 18% of the vote.

Van der Graaf's upbringing was typical of a middle-class provincial Dutchman. The second son of teacher, he grew up in Middelburg, a picturesque small town crisscrossed with canals in the windswept southwestern province of Zeeland. Bram Theune, who taught him mathematics at the local grammar school, remembers him as one of the quietest but cleverest of his classmates. "Volkert was very studious — in one exam he scored 99%, which was quite phenomenal," he said.

Fellow pupils remember a temper that could suddenly flare up. "I never got into quarrels at school," recalled Marcel Dellebeke, one of his classmates. "But he was different."

Passionately interested in biology, van der Graaf was already taking his first steps into the animal rights movement. He founded the Zeeland Animal Liberation Front, which daubed slogans on the facades of restaurants with frog's legs on the menu.

When van der Graaf was 17 his father Henk died. With his mother and older brother Roland, he moved a few miles south to the port of Vlissingen. There, he worked briefly at a bird sanctuary; former colleagues recall he objected when they used mousetraps.

Van der Graaf went on to study environmental hygiene at the agricultural university in Wageningen. He then moved to to a green commune, but in the early 1990s returned to Wageningen, renting a room from Richard Beumer, a former air force officer. They could not have been more different.

"He wasn't the type you could to talk to about football," Beumer recalled. "He was always worried about the environment, especially seals. He couldn't bear the idea that those dear little creatures were being clubbed to death."

Van der Graaf became a vegan and joined anti-vivisection and environmental groups. Then, in 1992, he founded Milieu Offensief (Environment Offensive), which was opposed to all animal farming. He set out to use every trick in the legal system to block permits needed by farmers to expand production.

He and his fellow activists split their areas: van der Graaf got Nunspeet and Harderwijk, and the surrounding region known as the Dutch Bible belt. Although little more than 90 minutes' drive from Amsterdam, it could be in another country. Some of its significant minority of Protestant fundamentalists put so much faith in God that they refuse medicine.

With his southern accent, van der Graaf remained an outsider, but neighbours said he was devoted to his baby girl, nicknamed Moppie. To the horror of others in the street he let his grass grow knee-high and kept chickens. Once a horse was tethered in the front garden.

Relations with farmers, many of them deeply conservative and resentful of a man they saw as a radical, deteriorated rapidly. To their fury his group fought more than 2,000 applications for farming licences, winning 70% of the cases.

Wien van den Brink, a pig farmer, fought in vain for more than five years for permission to build a new shed. Questions were asked about the financing of van der Graaf's organisation. In addition to about £100,000 in funding from the state lottery, some locals claim it was indirectly taking money from farmers in return for agreements not to block their licence applications.

Pieter Van der Camp, another farmer who fell foul of Milieu Offensief, said he managed to get the go-ahead after paying more than Ï20,000 to a broker. Milieu Offensief refused to comment last week.

In Harderwijk the local authority itself was taken to court by van der Graaf for wrongly issuing a licence that allowed a farmer to increase his livestock.

When Van der Graaf came into contact with Van de Werken, their relationship was tense. According to former colleagues, Van de Werken was willing to compromise in disputes and van der Graaf concluded he was on the side of the farmers. Then the official's body was found in the woods with two bullets in his back.

Like Fortuyn, Van de Werken was killed with 9mm silver-tip hollow-point bullets, a rare form of ammunition similar to dumdum bullets. Both men were shot in cold blood at extremely close range.

Police confirmed that van der Graaf was among those questioned at the time. Documents found on the hard disk of a computer seized from his home also point to a possible link with arson attacks in November 1999 on a plant in Milheeze, a few miles to the south, that produces feed for minks, and a series of incidents at a local poultry farm that started in 1995.

The rights and wrongs of intensive farming were never much of an issue for Fortuyn, however. If he thought about the countryside at all, it was probably the area around Provesano, in northeast Italy, where he bought a holiday home and where, as stipulated in his will, his remains will be buried.

Fortuyn's political preoccupations were largely urban. His first triumph in March came in local elections in Rotterdam, where his supporters won more than a third of the vote. His chief concern was immigration, especially from Muslim countries, and the problems he claimed it caused. "Holland is not a country, it is a city state," he said five days before his murder in an interview with The Sunday Times in his opulent Rotterdam home, filled with a mix of antiques and modern art.

Fortuyn was dismissive of the green movement, which he found humourless and tedious. In an interview last December with a Dutch environmental magazine, he sneered at worries about global warming. He was also known to favour easing restrictions on farming, especially on the rearing of mink. There could be no stronger symbol of everything van der Graaf so passionately opposed.

A police search of van der Graaf's home turned up plans of Fortuyn's house and the homes of three other prospective MPs on his party's list, including Jim Janssen van Raay, a prominent former Christian Democrat MEP. All three have been given 24-hour protection.

Police are examining claims that van der Graaf may also have stalked his prey on the morning of the assassination, following Fortuyn to a hotel in the southern town of Breda. Several witnesses claimed yesterday to have seen a man in a red baseball cap who strongly resembled van der Graaf. Whatever the motive for the killing, there is little doubt of its impact on the Netherlands. Political violence is a rarity in a country long ruled by consensus. When Fortuyn's body lay in state in Rotterdam's Laurentius cathedral on Thursday, tens of thousands queued in the baking sun to file past his coffin.

If yesterday's poll findings are confirmed on election day, the Pim Fortuyn List could pick up 27 of the 150 seats in parliament, one more than the Labour party of Wim Kok, the outgoing prime minister, and only two fewer than the Christian Democrats. Analysts expect it to join a centre-right coalition.

The party may not be a force for long, however, and some question whether it should continue at all. Fortuyn's brother Marten said it should be dissolved. "Pim is the party and the party is Pim," he said.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: animalrightslist; biofraud; blackshirts; communistsubversion; enviralist; enviralists; espionagelist; europelist; fortuyn; fundingtheleft; holland; netherlands; pimfortuyn; terrorwar
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I think he was stalking - which raises the question how they traced him. Maybe just following in a car, maybe more.

Another paper said that he was seen with two others in "Breda."

Immediate reports from eyewitnesses at the radio studio site "have spoken of seeing militant-type figures at the media park where the Dutch station is located." Link.

This fellow apparently works an environmentalist extortion racket for money from farmers.

He was trained from the beginning. When arrested he would only give out his name and a demand for two lawyers by name. His wife and family have closed their mouths - not even sympathy expressed.

IMO money, and somethng bigger than just a lone nut may be involved. Money payments to the family perhaps? He only faces a 20 year sentence. Amazingly, the max penalty for one murder.

1 posted on 05/11/2002 7:04:42 PM PDT by Shermy
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To: Knighthawk; aristeides; nebullis; backhoe; tdadams; Prodigal Son; xsysmgr; xm177e2; x; timesink...
Ping.
2 posted on 05/11/2002 7:09:17 PM PDT by Shermy
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To: Shermy, knighthawk
Wow, Shermy, this gets weirder and weirder....and van der Graaf might be a serial killer? Shudder.
3 posted on 05/11/2002 7:10:32 PM PDT by Catspaw
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To: Shermy
The party may not be a force for long, however, and some question whether it should continue at all. Fortuyn's brother Marten said it should be dissolved. "Pim is the party and the party is Pim," he said.

Seems conservatives everywhere can't seem to stay on top and survive and fight with consistency. I hope this was not a casual phenomenon and they revert to type as the result of the death of Fortuyn. It seems conservatives in Holland come out only when they latch on to a leader and disolve when they lose one.

This is an opportunity for the right if they play it right. Hopefully someone with brains will take advantage of the situation and move the movement forward.

4 posted on 05/11/2002 7:16:46 PM PDT by Cacique
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To: Shermy
BTTT
5 posted on 05/11/2002 7:23:45 PM PDT by facedown
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Comment #6 Removed by Moderator

To: Shermy
What's with the enviro-wackies?

The 'pipe bombing kid' wrote a diatribe about environmental destruction by American industry and could have killed post office employees (or ordinary citizens.)

Al Gore's role model, the Unabomber, was an enviro-nut and HE killed people.

The tree-nuts in the Northwest 'spike' trees to kill or maim loggers.

Others are not too concerned whether people and crops get the water they need to live.

Now this loony.

One could infer with reason that the enviros are worshipping a very perverse god...

7 posted on 05/11/2002 7:40:05 PM PDT by ninenot
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To: Shermy
There are useful idiots, and then there are VERY useful idiots.
8 posted on 05/11/2002 7:44:35 PM PDT by Carry_Okie
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To: ninenot
When Christ said that you will love your neighbor as yourself, he wasn't making an admonishment, but stating an immutable law. When one hates one-self, it isn't hard to hate everybody else.
9 posted on 05/11/2002 7:48:13 PM PDT by Carry_Okie
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To: Catspaw
This guy founded the Zeeland ALF and is implicated in the arson of a mill that produced mink food.

I believe I read an article today that said a car was bombed in the Netherlands.The car belonged to somebody in the other political party the ARAs would have on their hit list,IIRC.

10 posted on 05/11/2002 7:54:48 PM PDT by Free Trapper
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To: Free Trapper; Grampa Dave
Here's the story F.T.:

Blast Rips Apart Car in Netherlands

Sorry, G.D., I just had to ping you on this one. :) Enviralist article par excellence.

11 posted on 05/11/2002 8:01:18 PM PDT by Shermy
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To: Cacique
This is an opportunity for the right if they play it right. Hopefully someone with brains will take advantage of the situation and move the movement forward.

Someone will. Regardless of what his brother says, the party was more than Pim. If it wasn't, Pim would have been content to sit at home, think whatever he wanted to think and kept his mouth shut. And 20% of the country are supporting his party for a reason. That reason isn't going away because Pim was assassinated; it's only getting stronger.

Of course, the Reform party totally blew apart after the '92 elections here, but they never got any power in Congress.

12 posted on 05/11/2002 9:56:48 PM PDT by Timesink
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To: Shermy
He was trained from the beginning. When arrested he would only give out his name and a demand for two lawyers by name. His wife and family have closed their mouths

That's how it looks to me- the guy's an assassin.

13 posted on 05/12/2002 1:43:09 AM PDT by backhoe
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To: Shermy; Catspaw
The Dutch forums are filled with people saying it was a conspiracy.

According to one guy on a forum, the two others that were sighted in Breda were from the ALF and the other was from the international socialists. But the newspaper that filmed them doesn't want to cooperate with police. Noting is certain in that direction.

The BVD, the Dutch NSA, said from the beginning Volkert van der Graaf never did anything suspecious, but newspapers soon found out he was terrorizing farmers and freeing animals at night.

And now this other murder.

Also Peter R. de Vries, crime reporter, said this guy knew how to shoot. He told yesterday that he went to shoot 9mm on a range and said he wasn't able to hit 5 times in quick succession from a small distance like Volkert van der Graaf did.

Also Peter R. de Vries recieved hundered of email to investigate the case himself. De Vries also managed to prove the innocence of two man who were convicted wrongfully for rape and murder.

Also another politcian, the new leader of Livable Netherlands, Fred Teeven (a chief of police) said he wanted to supervize the police investigation.

14 posted on 05/12/2002 3:17:07 AM PDT by knighthawk
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Comment #15 Removed by Moderator

To: Free Trapper
This guy founded the Zeeland ALF and is implicated in the arson of a mill that produced mink food.

Okay, now you've officially given me the willies. ALF are suspects in the 1999 arson of a feed mill that produced mink food (along with processing grain for farmers in the area) in Plymouth, Wisconsin at a simotaneous mink release a few miles away.

16 posted on 05/12/2002 3:53:12 AM PDT by Catspaw
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To: knighthawk; shermy
Didn't van der Graaf only move to Harderwijk a year ago (from Wageningen, I take it)? So he moved to the town next to the scene of this earlier murder after the murder. Spooky.
17 posted on 05/12/2002 5:04:52 AM PDT by aristeides
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To: Shermy
Look at the bright side. The press won't call him a right-winger!

Seriously, this is the best evidence we have that the Watermelons (Green skin/Red heart) are violent shakedown artists the world over.

Guaranteed the US press will only provide the briefest, and most sanitized mentions of this case going forward, if they mention it at all.

18 posted on 05/12/2002 5:08:49 AM PDT by NativeNewYorker
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To: thud
A Facist murder conspiracy ping?
19 posted on 05/12/2002 5:09:53 AM PDT by Dark Wing
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To: Shermy; knighthawk
What were the firearms used in the murders of Fortuyn and of this environment officer?
20 posted on 05/12/2002 5:17:37 AM PDT by aristeides
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To: aristeides; Shermy
He indeed did move to Harderwijk about a year ago. People in Harderwijk didn't really knew him.

Peter R. de Vries, who is a crime reporter, mentioned a 9mm. But it seemed to be a special cartridge instead of the 9x19 mm (Parabellum). The rounds were longer than normal ones, 23 or 25 mm in length. And that this ammo was not used in the criminal circuit, so he got it from some one special. He didn't have a permit, by the way. So the gun was illegal.

But as far as I know police didn't confirm this, except for the illegal gun.

21 posted on 05/12/2002 5:31:38 AM PDT by knighthawk
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To: Free Trapper, knighthawk, Shermy

Note where Justin Samuel was arrested.  To the best of my knowledge, Peter Young has not been caught.

ALF Activist Receives Two Year Prison Sentence

By Brian Carnell

Monday, November 06, 2000

In September I wrote about the capture of Animal Liberation Front activist Justin Samuel. Samuel was arrested in Belgium after fleeing the United States to avoid federal charges related to the release of animals from fur farms. Upon his return to the United States, Samuel plead guilty to two misdemeanors.

Last week Samuel became the first person sentenced under the federal animal enterprise terrorism law and received a two year sentence in federal prison for his role in the animal releases. He was also ordered to pay more than $360,000 to business he had harmed. The sentence was the maximum allowable for misdemeanor charges under the statute.

In sentencing Samuel, federal magistrate Stephen Crocker told Samuel that, "You have the right to voice an opinion, but you're not being prosecuted or sentenced for voicing an opinion but for engaging in an act of terrorism."

Peter D. Young, who allegedly accompanied Samuel on his fur farm raids, also fled after being indicted and remains at large. The duo released about 36,000 mink from Wisconsin farms during October 1997, but were found in the area with a list of mink farms compiled by the ALF as well as equipment designed to carry out raids against fur farms.

Samuel was allowed to plea bargain to misdemeanor charges after agreeing to "make a full, complete, truthful statement regarding his involvement in violations of federal criminal statutes charged in the original Indictment, as well as the involvement of all other individuals known to him regarding the crimes charged in that Indictment. And the defendant agrees to testify fully and truthfully at any trials or hearings."

Samuel's decision to cooperate with authorities hasn't exactly endeared him to the ALF crowed, but here's hoping his testimony ensure that he'll soon be joined in prison by other animal rights terrorists.

Source:

Animal rights activist gets two years in prison. The Associated Press, November 3, 2000.

Activist sentenced for letting minks go. Kevin Murphy, Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, November 4, 2000.

22 posted on 05/12/2002 5:38:58 AM PDT by Catspaw
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To: ninenot
The murderous twin menaces of militant environmentalists and PETA vermin must be added as enemies of civilization in the War on Terror.
23 posted on 05/12/2002 9:44:39 AM PDT by friendly
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To: Shermy
"This fellow apparently works an environmentalist extortion racket for money from farmers."

Are these environmental thugs in the mold of the Extortion King, Jesse Jackson?

24 posted on 05/12/2002 9:46:15 AM PDT by friendly
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To: Shermy;seamole
Like Fortuyn, Van de Werken was killed with 9mm silver-tip hollow-point bullets, a rare form of ammunition similar to dumdum bullets. Both men were shot in cold blood at extremely close range.

Dum dum bullets in the Netherlands?????

How did he get ahold of dumdum bullets...????

25 posted on 05/12/2002 10:00:19 AM PDT by Dog
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To: knighthawk
Knighthawk how easy is it to own a handgun in the Netherlands???
26 posted on 05/12/2002 10:02:20 AM PDT by Dog
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To: backhoe;Shermy;Catspaw;knighthawk
Could this have been a professional hit???
27 posted on 05/12/2002 10:07:07 AM PDT by Dog
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To: Shermy
Like Fortuyn, Van de Werken was killed with 9mm silver-tip hollow-point bullets, a rare form of ammunition similar to dumdum bullets.

What can the FR handgun enthusiasts and ammo experts tell us about this ammunition? What is the point of using it over normal hollow points when you know you'll be shooting from close range? Does anyone think it was more the symbolic significance of a "silver bullet" rather than the bullet's killing capacity? How hard is this ammo to get in the US? In the Netherlands? How much does it cost? Are the ballistics different- I mean would you have to practice specifically with that ammo if you wanted to hit something with it in a real situation? Questions, questions. If anybody has any answers please feel free to pipe up.

28 posted on 05/12/2002 10:17:37 AM PDT by Prodigal Son
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To: Prodigal Son;Dog;knighthawk
Winchester makes silvertip ammo.The 9x23x9MM is factory made and easily available in the U.S.The bullet is a jacketed hollow point,not anything extra special.The cartridge is one of the better self defense factory loads.
29 posted on 05/12/2002 10:56:25 AM PDT by Free Trapper
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To: Prodigal Son;Dog;knighthawk
The 9x23MM silvertip is soft point not hollow point,sorry.;o(
30 posted on 05/12/2002 11:14:26 AM PDT by Free Trapper
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To: knighthawk
Thanks for the interesting post.

I don't think the "animal rights" movement is about animals at all. It's about people, and making rules for people. Hence the passion, and the willingness to kill, to have their way.

31 posted on 05/12/2002 12:44:55 PM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: Dog
IMHO, it's less of a professional hit than it is an ideological hit, similar to the Unabomber. He--or they--are killing for a belief, no matter how twisted it is--rather than a paid hit.
32 posted on 05/12/2002 2:28:00 PM PDT by Catspaw
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To: Catspaw
Let me tell you something. A while ago some nutters also released some mink from a farm. To free them, of course. But since the farm was very close to a highway, most animals became roadkill. That's some freedom, I bet these animals even suffered more!
33 posted on 05/12/2002 2:36:45 PM PDT by knighthawk
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To: Free Trapper; Prodigal Son; Dog; knighthawk; Aristeides
I wouldn't expect much expertise from European reporters about the details of guns or cartridges. But I'd bet that hollow point ammo is rare in the region.

KN - I think reporters have certain rights not to reveal sources in the US, but I really doubt they can withhold crime evidence. On what ground is the newspaper saying that they won't release the photos? In any event, this is disgusting. You might call for a boycott of the newspaper.

34 posted on 05/12/2002 2:39:58 PM PDT by Shermy
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To: lentulusgracchus
Michael moore commented (surprisingly) "Leftists love humanity, but hate humans."

With the enviralists, like the Smiley Face bomber, there seems to be a lack of humanity, and the idea that animals are "equal" to us consequentially fosters a belief that since humans kill animals, there is a moral equivalency in killing humans. These guys are asocial and seem to make perfect Manchurian candidates - in fact, they need no brainwashing at all.

35 posted on 05/12/2002 2:44:00 PM PDT by Shermy
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To: Dog
It depends. A taxidriver was asked the same question and he said he just had to drive to a certain street and get some.

I heard from a guy he could arrange French army handguns new in box. And you could also order Berettas and such, all illegal.

But people who buy such an illegal gun usualy are not up to a lot of good.

Or people could go to Belgium where it is much easier to obtain such a weapon.

36 posted on 05/12/2002 2:50:48 PM PDT by knighthawk
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To: Dog
btw, also look at reply #14
37 posted on 05/12/2002 2:52:21 PM PDT by knighthawk
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To: Shermy
so fanatical about the rights of animals that he was prepared to take human life.

Making him no different than any other PETA nutbag.

Every liberal is a thug.

38 posted on 05/12/2002 2:56:13 PM PDT by moyden
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To: Shermy
They claim it is against their neutrality not to give the videos to the police. But indeed, I bet if the police wants them as crime-evidence, the paper will give it to them.
39 posted on 05/12/2002 2:56:14 PM PDT by knighthawk
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To: knighthawk
What happened to firearms-bearing in Europe? You have hunters like Eric in operas like Der fliegende Holländer. You have all the firearms-bearers in operas like Der Freischütz. You have all the recipes for things like Jägerschnitzel. For that matter, you have all the recipes with cacciatore (hunter) sauce in Italy. I assume all these hunters would have shot their game with firearms. What happened?
40 posted on 05/12/2002 3:10:46 PM PDT by aristeides
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To: aristeides
Hunters are able to own guns. One or two barreled back-loading shotguns. Legaly, without a permit, that is. One only needs to get a hunting licence and a green hat with a shaving brush (they all wear that) and you are allowed to walk around in the forests with a large gun.

But the people arent' allowed to own guns like in the US. We let te government take away our rights. They now removed the right of safety of the consitution (thank socialists/liberals) and self defence is more punishable than the crime the criminal was going to do. The only time police were quick to arrest anyone was the Fortuyn killer.

41 posted on 05/12/2002 3:18:48 PM PDT by knighthawk
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To: Dog
A real pro would probably be content with one head shot with a .22-- like organized crime in the States used to favor. The multiple shots with a heavy ( well, fairly ) calibre weapon argue towards and angry amatuer.
42 posted on 05/12/2002 3:29:42 PM PDT by backhoe
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To: lentulusgracchus
"I don't think the "animal rights" movement is about animals at all. It's about people, and making rules for people. Hence the passion, and the willingness to kill, to have their way."

Absolutely correct.

43 posted on 05/12/2002 5:07:06 PM PDT by trisham
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To: Prodigal Son
Are the ballistics different- I mean would you have to practice specifically with that ammo if you wanted to hit something with it in a real situation?

Maybe.

With most semi-auto weapons, the gun 'likes' some ammo and does not 'like' other ammo. What that means is that if you are firing 5-round strings at a target (say 25 yards,) the 'likeable' ammo will group more tightly than the 'not-likeable' ammo. So you practice with various brands, weights, etc., of ammo until you find the one which is 'likeable' for your weapon.

Another thing: 9mm ammo comes in all different weights (measured by grains of lead in the bullet,) from 90 grains up to 147.

The heavier rounds tend to fire higher on the target. So if your ammo is firing low, go up a weight class until you find the weight which fires dead-on point of aim.

Does it take practice to shoot someone at close range? Not really, depending on the meaning of 'close.'

Out to 10 yards or so, you have to really be a bozo to miss a human being. At 25 yards, you may miss point of aim by up to 6" (on the target,) depending on the typical factors: hurry, adrenaline, etc.

If the victims were 5 to 10 feet away (1.5 to 3.0 meters) killing them is not difficult.

This does presume that one has practiced--say a thousand rounds a year (not too much practice, BTW; Olympians and the professionals do around 2,000 rounds/week.)

44 posted on 05/12/2002 6:07:23 PM PDT by ninenot
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To: ninenot;Free Trapper
Thanks for the info regarding the ammo. I was just fishing for some clues and hoping that might have been a good avenue.

Regarding posts #10 and the info from the start about witnesses saying they saw "militant types" in the area before Fortuyn was shot: I was thinking others may have known of his plan and helped him with target surveillance on the day of the hit and possibly at other times. I realize all of these greenie types wouldn't want to physically kill themselves, but I hear a lot of them wish death on their "enemies" and the enemies of animals and it is documented that they work in a loosely associated network- particularly ALF and ELF and openly advocate criminal activity.

I figure the shooter probably realized he needed help (lookouts etc) and had a few of the ones who agreed with the shooting posted around the site of the Fortuyn assassination in this lookout capacity. They could have helped tail him to that location as well. It would be so easy if they all had cell phones. Just before the shooting the shooter could have given them a heads up, they could have used these extra moments to flee- lessening the chances of their own detection- the shooter does his deed and then tries to get away on his own.

It also wouldn't surprise me at all that via this ELF/ALF system the arsonists and monkeywrenchers (and lately assassins) have some method of anonymously reporting their deeds so ELF/ALF knows that someone from the "revolution" is the one that has done the deed. They like to post these little victories on their website- it's good for morale. The USA is a big place as is Europe- hard to keep up with every little chicken house fire. Surely, someone is telling someone else- somehow.

45 posted on 05/12/2002 8:33:20 PM PDT by Prodigal Son
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To: Prodigal Son;backhoe
I haven't read anything yet to make either murder sound very difficult to accomplish,even without help.I wouldn't be surprised in the least if the murderer had some.

I am surprised Mr.Fortuyn's murderer didn't use a rifle from a distance that would have allowed his escape.Up close and personal with a pistol he had to know an escape wasn't likely.

Someone being paid to kill would do whatever it took not to get caught,I would think.

46 posted on 05/12/2002 9:47:45 PM PDT by Free Trapper
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To: Free Trapper
I am surprised Mr.Fortuyn's murderer didn't use a rifle from a distance that would have allowed his escape.Up close and personal with a pistol he had to know an escape wasn't likely.

That's a good point. I wonder what else this character has done in the past (assuming they succeed in hanging the other murder on him as well)? If he indeed figured he would get caught, he was in effect "giving himself up for the cause". He would have viewed this as the "ultimate" contribution, I suppose, for whatever it is he stands for. Perhaps hoping to spur on the next guy to "martyr" themselves as well.

It makes me angry that Gerhard Schroeder and Tony Blair are now thumping their pulpits saying we (Europe) need to quell the "Rise of the Right". What you would think they'd be concerned with is the rise in extremism of other types. Here they've had a politician get murdered and they basically say they agree idealistically with the assassin by saying the "Right must be put down".

47 posted on 05/12/2002 10:23:43 PM PDT by Prodigal Son
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To: Prodigal Son
The murderer could have been stalking Fortuyn for some time looking for a chance to bushwhack him,like the other murder victim was,then make a clean escape.

With the election so near,maybe the murderer just had to take his best shot when he got the chance and the heck with the consequences.

48 posted on 05/12/2002 10:43:51 PM PDT by Free Trapper
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To: Free Trapper
Is 9x23mm what the Spanish call "9mm Largo"? I thought it was less common.....the sort of thing you'd find if you looked at secondhand Astras at a gun show. As I recall, it has approximately the same performance as .38 Super (also popular in Spanish-speaking countries), just short of .40 S&W.
49 posted on 05/13/2002 2:43:00 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: lentulusgracchus
The 9x23 Winchester is reasonably new and from what I understand is a really good self defense cartridge.

The older 9MM Largo is 9x23 also but not as high pressure as the 9x23 Winchester so it doesn't pack as much punch.I believe both will use the same reloading dies but the Largo would have to have a lighter load.

I haven't used the 9x23 Winchester myself and am going from what I've heard and my memory on this.

50 posted on 05/13/2002 3:30:00 AM PDT by Free Trapper
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