Voltaire

Personal Archives | 05-11-02 | PsyOp

[boris]

"A long dispute means both parties are wrong."
- Voltaire.

Like anti-gun and Second Amendment?...

Abortion and Pro-Life?...

The West and Islam?...

Capitalism and Socialism?...

Rocky and Bullwinkle vs. Boris & Natasha...?

Both wrong?...

--Boris

[PsyOp]

RE: #21. I just post them - I don't necessarily agree with them all. And remember, this is Voltaire, so it is probably a tounge-in-cheek statement which means the opposite.

[PsyOp]

And thank your MOM for me! She done good...

Done! Do the same for yours from me. Moms just don't get enough credit, no matter how hard we try!

[PsyOp]

you know the rest.

All too well, I'm afraid.

[PsyOp]

You ever read stuff by Sir Richard Francis Burton ?

Just bits and pieces, but I've liked what I've read and have a few qoutes hidden in computer.

[JMJ333]

Just another vitriolic frenchman famous for attacking christianity. His attacks were both frequent and vicious. I suppose today his writings would be styled "higher criticism." His pathetic attempt to destroy the authenticity and reliability of the Bible is laughable. And his stout denials of such things as miracles and the efficacy of prayer only illustrate his ignorance. He once commented: “It took 12 men to originate the Christian religion, but it will take but one to eliminate it. Within fifty years from now the only Bible will be in museums."

LOL. How highly he thought of himself! What a joke.

[Polybius]

Please add me to your ping list.

[PsyOp]

What Voltaire attacked with regard to Christianity was not so much the religion itself (though I am sure he was not fond of the Church), but the role of the Church in the government, as well as the abuses of power, and of the French people, by both the Manarchy and the Church that sanctioned that Monarchy.

Context is everything. I would suspect that if you were a Protestant Christain who had been persecuted for being a blasphemer, or a writer persecuted, with the Church's blessing, because you criticised the King - you too might develop a cynical attitude towards the Church, or even religion in general.

Lumping Voltaire in with the current generation of athiests and religion bashers is not fair. And his writings helped point out the reasons why a separation between church and state was needed. His writings and criticisms of the Church helped remind our lawmakers of what they needed to do 40 years later when drafting the Constitution. He engaged in a very effective satire from which no form of pomposity and power, church or state, escaped.

[PsyOp]

Consider yourself added.

[JMJ333]

Context is everything. I would suspect that if you were a Protestant Christain who had been persecuted for being a blasphemer, or a writer persecuted, with the Church's blessing, because you criticised the King - you too might develop a cynical attitude towards the Church, or even religion in general.

Indeed context is everything. We can go back and outline why the French revolution occured if you wish, but that doesn't give Voltaire the right to try and destroy Christianity--which he did.

In 1765, he began what would consume the remainder of his life--his attacks upon the Christian religion. One of his first documents on this theme was his Treatise on Toleration, which attacked the Catholic Church followed by an endless bonanza of pamphlets, histories, dialogues, letters, catechisms, diatribes, squibs, sermons, verses, tales, fables, commentaries and essays, under Voltaire’s own name and under a hundred pseudonyms—the most astonishing pell-mell of propaganda ever put out by one man, in my not so humble opinion.

Lumping Voltaire in with the current generation of athiests and religion bashers is not fair. And his writings helped point out the reasons why a separation between church and state was needed. His writings and criticisms of the Church helped remind our lawmakers of what they needed to do 40 years later when drafting the Constitution. He engaged in a very effective satire from which no form of pomposity and power, church or state, escaped.

Oh, I disagree. He fits in nicely with todays materialists. And he is remembered much more for his hate for my religion than any satire or political thought his little mind ever thought up.

[PsyOp]

but that doesn't give Voltaire the right to try and destroy Christianity--which he did.

For someone you have such little regard for, you're sure giving him a lot of credit. Bu then the Catholic church did not need much help in that regard, which is why there was a reformation.

And he is remembered much more for his hate for my religion

And therein lies the crux of your argument. I keep forgetting that the Pope is infalible, and those that criticise anything Catholic are bashers! My bad. Say, how's Cardinal Law these days?

[EODGUY]

Excellent comeback to refute the facts presented in post #30....and it only took you an hour to develop your sarcastic, bigoted drivel.

Congratulations!

[JMJ333]

For someone you have such little regard for, you're sure giving him a lot of credit. Bu then the Catholic church did not need much help in that regard, which is why there was a reformation.

It wasn't a reformation, it was a revolt. See my profile. Thanks.

Also, I am only giving credit to Voltaire's mass achievments in trying to tear down the Christian religion. You can try and change the subject by deflecting criticism on the current scandals in my church, but the facts--his mass amount of literature--speak otherwise.

And he is remembered much more for his hate for my religion

And therein lies the crux of your argument. I keep forgetting that the Pope is infalible, and those that criticise anything Catholic are bashers! My bad. Say, how's Cardinal Law these days?

Love those bait and switch tactics. If you want my opinion of the attacks coming from within and without you can read my opinion Here. Or you can try to stay on topic.

[PsyOp]

1. The reply took about 30 sec.
2. I am not bigoted by, for, or against Catholics. Many of my favorite reletives are Catholic. The difference between you and 333 is that they can actualy discuss criticism of the problems of the Church and those who criticise it without getting shrill and accusing people of being accused of being a bigot or Catholic basher.
3. Pointing out bigotry (which is what Voltaire did) does not make me a bigot.
4. The fact that your buttons are so easily pushed, which was the purpose of my post, proves that. Stop being so thin-skinned and you will become a better advocate of your position.

[JMJ333]

And what does papal infallibility and criticism have to do with anything? Criticize scandal and corruption all you want--but I take exception with petty minded fools who think they can destroy Christianity.

And as long as were on the subject, papal infallibility...What it is and what it isn't.

[EODGUY]

2. I am not bigoted by, for, or against Catholics. Many of my favorite reletives are Catholic. The difference between you and 333 is that they can actualy discuss criticism of the problems of the Church and those who criticise it without getting shrill and accusing people of being accused of being a bigot or Catholic basher.

I love the line that your proof of not being bigoted (which is proven by your sarcastic comments about Papal infalibility, of which you clearly know nothing) is that your favorite relatives are Catholic. Congratulations.

Your problem is staying focused on the argument at hand. You prove your bigotry by turning a discussion into an indictment of the entire Catholic Church, and (you will have to go back and read your previous post) equating our religion with Papal infalibility.

Anytime you want to have a discussion on a framed, focused aspect of the Catholic faith without resorting to bigotry and then whining victimhood when called on your bias, give me a call.

[PsyOp]

And as long as were on the subject, papal infallibility...

And as an astute Papal scholar, I'm sure you know that Vatican II's definition was not always the prevailing definition (I know, I'm not Catholic, so you presume I know nothing of the religion and theology and history behind it).

In the past (most of the Church's history, in fact), the Pope was considered Infallible. That was especially true in Voltaire's day. If you did not agree with the Pope, you were a Heritic (a word I noticed that you used in the post you directed me to). Apparantly you believe that anyone who is not Catholic is one, or you would have chosen your words more carefully.

Do you believe that Heretics (i.e. non-Catholics) will go to hell, or some lesser level of perdition? Because that is what being a "heretic" means.

[PsyOp]

You prove your bigotry by turning a discussion into an indictment of the entire Catholic Church.

I did no such thing. Putting words in my mouth is disingenuous.

[JMJ333]

And as an astute Papal scholar, I'm sure you know that Vatican II's definition was not always the prevailing definition (I know, I'm not Catholic, so you presume I know nothing of the religion and theology and history behind it).

I think that link traced the roots to early Christianity quite succinctly, but you have to read further than the part of Vatican II to see it. I also don't presume anything about your knowledge. And I don't claim to be a papal scholar, just someone who fiercly loves her religion.

In the past (most of the Church's history, in fact), the Pope was considered Infallible. That was especially true in Voltaire's day. If you did not agree with the Pope, you were a Heritic (a word I noticed that you used in the post you directed me to). Apparantly you believe that anyone who is not Catholic is one, or you would have chosen your words more carefully.

You didn't read the link otherwise you would understand that the statement you made just isn't true. And quit acting as if I am out to get you. I'm not. I directed you to that post because you got off topic and I wanted to defend the church against the scandal topic.

Do you believe that Heretics (i.e. non-Catholics) will go to hell, or some lesser level of perdition? Because that is what being a "heretic" means.

No, I don't believe that non-Catholics are going to hell. I am interested though in truth and I fight for what I think is right concerning doctrine.

Now, as for Voltaire, his words speak for themselves. A search of google will prove me correct.

I have had fun debating. I'm turning in for the night. Regards.

[EODGUY]

"To: JMJ333

but that doesn't give Voltaire the right to try and destroy Christianity--which he did.

For someone you have such little regard for, you're sure giving him a lot of credit.

Bu then the Catholic church did not need much help in that regard, which is why there was a reformation.

And he is remembered much more for his hate for my religion

And therein lies the crux of your argument. I keep forgetting that the Pope is infalible, and those that criticise anything Catholic are bashers! My bad. Say, how's Cardinal Law these days?

31 posted on 5/12/02 9:02 PM Pacific by PsyOp [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]

You should really read your comments before denying your bigotry, your anti-Catholic venom exudes from the comments quoted above. You are disengenuous. Have a good evening.