Records: Governor candidates received Vietnam War deferments

AP via Boston.com ^ | 7/13/02 | John McElhenny

[GeneD]

BOSTON -- It was 1968, as U.S. soldiers were being shipped off every day to fight the war in Vietnam, when 22-year-old Robert Reich walked into the Oakland military induction center and made the examining sergeant's day.

"Just what we're looking for!" the sergeant said upon sight of the 4-foot-10-inch Reich. "A tunnel rat to flush the Vietcong out from under the rice paddies!"

[GeneD]

They care in Massachusetts?

[E. Pluribus Unum]

Robert ReeeeiiiiccccccccchhhhhhhhhhhhhhchhchchchhccccchchchchchccchchchchchchhcchcchccccchhhhhhhhhhhhhhsHSHSHSHSHHSHSUUUHHHH!!!

As Rush would say.

[donozark]

1 out of 16 babyboomer males saw combat in Vietnam. For every baby boomer killed in combat in Vietnam, 10 committed a felony to avoid the draft. Was that generation against war or against personal participation? 80 percent of them supported the Gulf War. SOURCE:USA TODAY Jan 1993.

[marvlus]

They were against an unwinnable war, which was obvious to us at the time.

[muawiyah]

Reich showed up for his induction physical. He failed it. There's absolutely nothing dishonorable about that happening.

Remember, this guy 4'10" tall showed up where taller, stronger and supposedly smarter men didn't!

[donozark]

All wars are winnable. The VC had been defeated in 1968. Never again to attack in formations larger than Battalion-and only two of those.The North, while already in the war, was forced to enter en masse. They too lost so many men they fled to their sanctuaries in Laos/Cambodia and only attacked on their terms-much as Al Queda is doing from the "neutral" area of Paskistan.

Most of these guys had as much chance of ending up grunts as Corporal Klinton did.

[muawiyah]

It was only obvious to Lyndon Johnson and Robert McNamara. They were the two most important people in the war, and they didn't happen to have the moral fortitude or the will to win the war. - Or to lose it -

They preferred to just let it run on and on and on and kill off my buddies.

When McNamara built his present mansion, he had bricks custom-made with a special sand finish. When the job was done the brick contractor had several hundred left over. He sold them to me for 2 cents per brick.

I keep them in a patio. Sometimes we have beer parties. Those brick are quit handy for relieving one's self, although I do restrict that activity to a small section. No sense making a mess, eh?!

[Bogey78O]

Politics made it unwinnable.

[donozark]

True. But the armed forces had been compelled to take in approx. 100K of "McNamara's morons." Meanwhile, these guys walked...through no real fault of their own, but walk they did.

[donozark]

Our goal was not to defeat communism (in VN), merely contain it. And we did. At least according to Singapore's PM Kew.

[muawiyah]

"Project One Hundred Thousand" didn't pull in idiots. I know a few men who were inducted under it's provisions, and they performed well.

One gentleman I knew in the First and Fifteenth in Germany had come in under "Project One Hundred Thousand", yet, he had to beg both of his Senators and his Representative so he could be deployed to Viet Nam.

Last time I heard of him he was an E-6 and on the front page of Life magazine - in Viet Nam!

His experience was typical of that of most of those inductees - they were shunted into non-combat units far from Viet Nam, and only through the most strenuous of efforts could they actually get permission to serve fully and honorably. Still, their presence allowed the military to deploy their "smart guys" to Viet Nam to get killed.

BTW, you wouldn't be jealous of those marginal guys would you?

Then, too, what do you think of many of the impoverished, illiterate and barefoot men who freed this nation from European tyranny in the American Revolution? Bet you think you are better than them as well, and that marginals really shouldn't be allowed to play a part in this nation.

George Washington was caught praying out in the bushes at Valley Forge. He had been moved by the sight of the Army that had chosen him to really be their leader. They were not much different from the Project One Hundred Thousand guys.

"God", speaking of prayer, "please rid me of these elitists who reject the honest patriotism of the plain man."

[donozark]

Amazing how you could misread what I wrote so quickly...I placed the pejorative term in quotes to specifically avoid the very sort of response I got from you.

[genefromjersey]

What in heck is the point of all this ?

[dts32041]

I think this of my fellow baby boomers ho did not serve during the SEA War Games, FOAD.

That which you sowed was reaped on 9-11-2001.

Especially after 8 years of the a president who so prefectly represented your values.

My where always duty honor country, yours was me.

[jonascord]

Odd that it was not so obvious to those of us who were there, unlike the slimy, filthy, sub-human, cowardly #$%^&&^*&%*^%#$&^%*()(*&*^%%$^ who "knew" better...

[Pushi]

It wasn't obvious to me. The war could have been won if we had not had a bunch of neo-politically correct pussies running things. I served.

[muawiyah]

It was your antecedent - the guys who "walked". Presumably those are the guys named earlier in the tread who had deferments.

The "Project One Hundred Thousand" guys were actually a lot closer to Reich than Reich was to his compatriots in the Ivy League schools. He and the "100,000" guys showed up!

If that's what you meant, it simply was not clear since you deviated from the thread.

You also have to remember that I am still very angry with Ollie North for having gotten this "dump on the marginal guys" stuff. As we all recall he didn't handle his last military assignment all that well himself.

Maybe he was dipping into Fawn's stash, eh?!

[gunnedah]

I will serve my country from an elected position since I was unable to do it in the military.Plus my retirement will be a bit better,more along the lines of what my position in life calls for!

[donozark]

I deviated from the thread? You went from urinating on bricks from McNamara's house to Valley Forge!

Yes, I was of course referring to the listed deferments.

PS:I really do like the story about the bricks. That is a keeper.

[old school]

You beat me to the punch! I saw all manner of devices used at the induction center in Oakland in 1967, including using illegal drugs. Some guys even claimed that they were queer, so that the wouldn't be inducted. Most of us were scared but not all of us were cowards. By the way, I went to Vietnam with a kid who was no bigger than Reich. Who's providing this information about his ineligibility?

[donozark]

Agreed. Especially since approx. 77% of the men who served in Vietnam were volunteers. A rate much higher than WW2. The myth of helpless, hapless, draftees plodding through the mud of VN is just that, myth. Granted, many did, but not near the numbers one would think. I'd be the last to take anything away from them. Served with many. Fine guys for the most part. But not near as plentiful as RA guys inspite of what has been written.

[muawiyah]

The bricks story is absolutely true. Many Viet Nam vets around the neighborhood and among my friends have experienced it.

I even sent a brick off to an Aussie who spent their version of the Viet Nam War in Viet nam. He said, as he "broke in" his brick, "This gives me great pleasure to introduce......"

This seems to be a multi-partisan business. There is a uniform opinion held by all the vets regarding that particular Secretary of Defense. I also find considerable agreement that if America ever really wants to apoligize to the Viet Nam vets, the place to start would be a warcrimes trial for McNamara!

[old school]

Hey, I was there and I didn't believe that the war was unwinnable! Had we had support for U.S. Soldiers instead of support for the enemy, (here at home), things might have been different!

[jwalsh07]

You guys won all the battles, the politicians lost the war. Thanks for serving.

[muawiyah]

4'10" kept you out except under some very special circumstances. If you met a guy that short, he had to really want to be there and more than one doctor had to falsify the records.

This URL will point you to material that will link you to the standards:

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/intmedstandards/blintmedstandards.htm

Or, maybe this one would be better although it's kind of Infantry specific and we are rather special people:

http://www.benning.army.mil/usapfs/Policy/AR40-501.pdf

The latter states: 220. Height The causes for rejection are as follows:

a. Men: Height below 60 inches or over 80 inches.

b. Women: Height below 58 inches or over 80 inches.

All Reich would have needed to do to get into the military was undergo a sex change operation!

It is generally considered going way beyond the call of patriotism to sever one's penis.

[gaspar]

I had to laugh. When I went through the induction line they were taking blood, and the guy who was taking mine could't find a vein. He punctured me three times and the blood was running down my arm when the guy behind me fainted. (I swear to God.) When I think about it now, what I wouldn't have done to have someone like Reich behind me, he'd have been scared, all right; hell, I thought they were going to kill me!

[Kobyashi1942]

They were against an unwinnable war, which was obvious to us at the time.

No, any man who dodged he draft was a coward, pure and simple. We lost the war because the Communist were counting on the the anti-war crowd convincing America to get out of the war.

Any man who dodged the draft should have his nose cut off and thrown into a bag with a wild animal, than thrown into the Patomac River.

[Kobyashi1942]

Politics made it unwinnable

No, the cowards in the anti-war movement made it unwinable. Those in the anti-war movement were carrying the water for the Communist, thus they were and still are traitors.

[laconic]

MacNamara has actually been invited to speak annually at the Vietnam Memorial on Memorial Day and he has declined EVERY year because he says is out of town or otherwise engaged on "business", despite the three day holiday when everyone else is on vacation (like Kenneth Lay, MacNamara must be in high demand as an "advisor" since he is the astounding life failure that oversaw the Edsel, designed the War Strategy and vastly expanded the horrendous mess called the World Bank that impoverished so many in the Third World). I saw him on TV after he wrote that wretched book (WE were wrong, HE claimed) denying culpability and saving his sympathies for the protestor who committed a fiery suicide outside his office, not one word about the soldiers). For thirty years, MacNamara has kissed every butt in Georgetown and on the Harvard campus in the hope that they'll let him into their cocktail parties; to do it, he has betrayed every soldier killed at his behest in Vietnam and every soldier maimed for life. Robert Novak noted that he's been doing this for years, running around the elite Washington circles, begging for acceptance, saying anything poisonous about the Vietnam war and veterans that the elites want to hear to validate their conduct and in return he gets a few crumbs (MacNamara sat on the Washington Post board of directors for years and was an "honorary" pallbearer at the funeral of that newspaper's Katherine Graham; that's all I need to know about that fishwrap).

[NMFXSTC]

I guess I can accept "student deferrments"...reluctantly. None the less, anyone who was or is service eligible should be required to at least serve in a reserve capacity. I wonder..is there a similar list of military serive (or lack thereof) for the congress? If anyone knows, please PM me...)

[Rockyrich]

Especially since approx. 77% of the men who served in Vietnam were volunteers.

Seems high. When I went through basic in `66 it seemed it was about 1/3 RA, 1/3 Draftees, and 1/3 Reserve/Nat Guard. In addition, it was the politicians that made this war unwinnable. They were so scared of dragging China/Soviet Union into it that they sacrificed human lives for indecision - a shame.

In `66, anyone with half a brain saw how this was a political war and to volunteer was somewhat myopic. There were no defined objectives or plan. VN was an open ended, unfined mess. Don't get me wrong, anyone who volunteered has my deepest respect and admiration.

[NMFXSTC]

Not only was it a losing proposition, but we left the peace table knowing damn well we weer leaving more than 560 men behind in Laos and Cambodia! Not a single man lost in those two countries has been accounted for...no returnees, no remains! how the Hell can that be? We left them...it's that damn simple!

[donozark]

From UNHERALDED VICTORY by Mark Woodruff. P.233. "Contrary to popular belief, volunteers provided the bulk of the manpower to U.S. forces throught the Vietnam War. Only 25% (648,500) of total U.S. forces were draftees. In comparision, 66% of U.S. troops were draftees during World War II."

From STOLEN VALOR by BG Burkett and Glenna Whitley. P.48. "Volunteers accounted for 77% of the combat deaths in Vietnam. That percentage goes up for younger men. Almost 86 percent of the nineteen-year-olds and 97 percent of eighteen-year-olds killed were volunteers."

I have however, seen the figure of 66% (volunteers) used more often than the higher figures. VFW once used 70%. Now they use 66%. Suffice to say it (the volunteer rate) was FAR higher than the rate of conscripted personnel.

[Lobster 6]

MacNamara is a war criminal. His actions he is responsible for thousands of dead and maimed in SE Asia. He is still alive, I say he should be tried and convicted just like Japanese or German War criminals after WWII.

[NMFXSTC]

Another thread had a large list of statistical data the other day...this is part of it:

DRAFTEES AND VOLUNTEERS

* 25% of the total forces in country were draftees 648,500 as opposed to 66% of the ones in WWII.

* Draftees accounted for 30.4% (17,725) of combat deaths in Vietnam.

* Reservists killed: 5,977.

* National Guard: 6,140 served; 101 died.

* Total draftees (1965-73): 1,728,344.

* Actually served in Vietnam: 38%.

* Marine Corps draft: 42,633.

* Last man drafted: June 30, 1973

[NMFXSTC]

I found a link that lists the congress and their military service:

http://www.fra.org/leg-center-2/106th-congress/106-cong-mil-lst.html

[donozark]

In a April 4, 1995 Agence France press release, the Vietnamese Government stated they had lost 1.1 million military KIA an 600,000 military WIA in the war with U.S.A. Additionally, I have read where they claim 300,000 Viets are MIA. They in essence, lost an entire generation of men...

[donozark]

I did find an article in the Guardian that said 89 recovery (MIA remains) ops have been conducted in Laos. 162 bodies of 560 American MIAs recovered.

[dts32041]

MY=mine

[dts32041]

Solomon P. Ortiz (D-Texas) Army 1060-62 Spc.

What a coward Got out of the Army 4 years before the battle of Hastings.

[CIB-173RDABN]

"I suddenly had visions of crawling through these tunnels beneath the rice paddies with hand grenades. It was not an inviting prospect."

---

Too bad he was not drafted, it may have done him some good.

[NMFXSTC]

It should be mandatory for any congressional representative to serve a military tour...no exceptions!

(USMC grunt platoon doc, 65 - 66, WIA x2.)

[Bogey78O]

And the political appeasement to them made it unwinnable....