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Pink Pistols - Pick on someone your own caliber
Queue Press ^ | January 2003 | DeAnna Miller

Posted on 01/02/2003 8:10:59 AM PST by jdege

Queue Press

Not every line is straight.

January 2003
The Twin Cities queer community monthly

Pink Pistols: www.pinkpistols.org
Twin Cities chapter: www.pinkpistols.org/local/tc/index.html
Twin Cities chapter email: twincities@pinkpistols.org
Guns-are-a-good-thing site: www.handguncontrol.net
Guns-are-a-bad-thing site: www.handguncontrol.org

Pink Pistols - Pick on someone your own caliber
by DeAnna Miller

To know us is to love us, right?

Five years After Ellen, mainstream media are crawling with queer characters, darn near every last one adorable, well-off and usually ten times more entertaining than the hets around them. It's gotten so you can't swing a plate of Petrossian caviar anywhere on NBC without hitting a few witty, urbane, non-heterosexual persons squarely in their bottles of Johnny Walker Blue.

Somehow this hasn't stopped people from trying to kill us.

Even if the queer community's growing - and overwhelmingly non-threatening - presence in pop culture hasn't slowed the rate of gay-bashing, you might expect the last decade's tide of state-level legislation against hate crimes at least to stabilize the rate at which queer folks are getting attacked.

It hasn't yet. Hate-crime laws specifically protect sexual orientation in 22 states (and gender identity in an additional five - including Minnesota - plus the District of Columbia). The FBI's latest Hate Crimes Statistics report, released Nov. 25, however, indicates a 7.2% increase from 2000 to 2001 in the number of reported hate crimes based on a victim's sexual orientation.

So we haven't won them over with Rosie and Will & Grace. And we haven't yet found legislative measures that increase our safety. What can we do?

One organization has an idea. It's so simple. So obvious. So brilliant.

Make gay-bashing dangerous.

Pink Pistols was started as a target-shooting club two years ago by Doug Krick, a 30-something gay man now living in Boston.

"I got some friends together to go shooting," Krick says today. "I thought, 'What else do we have in common? Aha! We're all queer.'"

Krick noticed that scattered handfuls of people would go target-shooting together. "And I thought, 'Okay, how can we work on this to coordinate within local areas?' Internet. That means a website. Then I began thinking I could probably have some fun with this one. Let's put out a press release."

Armed with a list of national media fax numbers assembled during an unsuccessful run at state office (as a Libertarian), he fired off a press release announcing the formation of the Pink Pistols.

"I wasn't expecting Newsweek to bite," he says with a laugh. Newsweek ran a short article on Pink Pistols in September, 2000. "Next thing I know, people are saying, 'I want to play, too. Can I start a chapter here?' Sure, knock yourself out."

A political agenda

Krick had drawn inspiration for the name Pink Pistols from a www.Salon.com article by Jonathan Rauch, a gay, Libertarian writer who saw the bright side of arming as many gay people as possible. Krick also drew inspiration for an unmistakable political agenda: No longer did he simply want Pink Pistols to help pro-handgun GLBT people locate each other. He wanted Pink Pistols to start working for the right to carry handguns.

The discussion on whether the citizenry ought to have legal access to handguns and assault weapons is, of course, much larger than the queer community. The debate stretches from sea to shining sea and extends as far back as the accidental invention of gunpowder. Whoever had gunpowder (or the recipe for gunpowder) had an extraordinary tactical advantage over an enemy whose armament was limited to catapults, archers, and swordsmen.

The twist here is that Pink Pistols actively promotes gun ownership, education and training for GLBT people in response to having become the third-most-frequently targeted group for hate crimes. It's not about some lofty ideal about minimizing government regulation of a person's second-amendment rights; it's an unambiguous call to fight back.

As you can see from the artwork at www.pinkpistols.org.

Krick enlisted Oleg Volk, a Minneapolis man who runs the pro-gun-ownership website A-human-right.com, to come up with some graphics that illustrate Pink Pistols' position. Volk, who moved to Nashville last year, came up with some images "mainly by analogy with any other group singled out for persecution," he says. The most jarring one doesn't really work in on a black-and-white page. The pistol has a rainbow stripe on the handle, and the triangle is pink.

Linking the atrocities of World War II to their own struggle to keep handguns is a common tactic for the pro-handgun community. The Million Mom March, a national organization composed primarily of women who work for more-strict gun control, has attracted the particular animosity of many pro-handgun groups. One website screams, "Be prepared for the brutal truth about what happens when your guns and means of self-defense, and the defense of Liberty are given up or taken away" and shows two horrifying photos of what it mockingly calls "the first Million Mom March" - a crowd of women gunned down by Germans and Ukrainian collaborators.

Local chapter

Today over 2,300 people participate in over 30 Pink Pistols chapters nationwide. The local chapter started up in October. Bob Odden organized the first meeting. "If anyone needs guns," he says, "it's gays."

Odden himself doesn't own a firearm. "It is fun to shoot, though," he says. "I enjoy that."

Odden started the chapter in part to meet other gay conservatives like himself. "I can read (in the media) anytime I want about some liberal position," he says. "They get a lot of coverage. I talk to other gays, and I would say a good portion of them are Republicans and Libertarians, but you don't really read about them. They have good opinions, too. I'd like to get to know some of these people."

In fact, he himself isn't really comfortable with guns. Suppose, he says, that he did carry a concealed handgun. "I would have a tremendous fear about firing when I shouldn't be firing … or suppose someone walks in between you and your target. … Now, that's the kind of thing you can learn, but I'm hesitant."

His vision for the chapter is to have a social club to get people comfortable with guns. "If they wanted to, (guns) might be another consideration in their self-defense strategy, and certainly we'll look into non-lethal strategies." The emphasis, he says, is on "our own personal safety, with the idea being that people need to accept some responsibility for protecting themselves. It's not up to the government to protect us."

Just as Log Cabin Republicans raise eyebrows among their GLBT Democrat friends, Libertarians - with their lefty social ideals and right-leaning ideas about taxation, the role of government, and the second amendment - remain a mystery to many queer folk.

Nancy Burkholder attended the first local Pink Pistol meeting in October, which drew a mixed crowd (queer and heterosexual). She's been a sport shooter for 20 years.

"I'm always in someone's sights," Burkholder says. "(Republican Governor-elect Tim) Pawlenty and (Republican Senator-elect Norm) Coleman - they're not my friends. But the Democrats aren't my friends, either. … For the most part, I think that if you advertise that you enjoy shooting, it's not going to win you many friends in the (GLBT) community. The community is not friendly to gun enthusiasts."

In fact, many pro-gun GLBT people will tell you that the gun community is more welcoming to GLBT people than the GLBT community is to gun owners. A few years ago, Odden attended a lobbying event at the state capitol with a pro-handgun group called Minnesota Concealed Carry Reform, Now! "I think they liked us." It was fun, he says, "to see a gay group there at a redneck event" and be so welcomed. "And it's kind of neat to go into a group like that, and when they see your plight, you can form alliances."

Krick thinks the anti-gun attitude might come more from GLBT community leaders than from the GLBT community itself. "One reason we're getting such an open-armed welcome from the gun community," he says, "is that they take a 'we don't care' approach. They're getting beat up by everyone lately, so they're welcoming any new faces to the cause."

"Beat up on"? Maybe, maybe not. Two months ago the east coast was paralyzed with fear of a random sniper, and the gun lobby was ridiculed for only managing to say, "No, we really don't see the need for a national registry that could trace which gun shot which bullets." Bowling for Columbine is making every hipster's must-see list, as much for its politics as for its giftedly contemptuous host, Michael Moore.

But the gun lobby can give as good as it gets. Visit www.Handguncontrol.net, a pro-handgun website. In odd, all-caps typography, the site handily accuses Handgun Control, Inc., - now The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence - of racism. One prominent page reads - and these are their parentheses - "HCI's major themes: Average citizens (especially lower-income and minorities) lack the intelligence or judgment to own any type of gun, much less a handgun."

Even Minnesota Nice can get a little ugly. At that first local meeting in October, you couldn't help but notice the way a few people renamed the Million Mom March: the "Million Moron March."

Dueling statistics

Both the gun-control side and the pro-gun-ownership side can produce a stack of statistics telling you why their ideas about gun ownership are correct. One often-quoted 1998 Journal of Trauma article by Arthur Kellermann (an MD with a master's in public health) reported that guns kept in the home for self-protection are 22 times more likely to kill somebody the gun owner knows than to kill in self-defense.

In 2000, John Lott, a senior research fellow at Yale University Law School, published More Guns, Less Crime, suggesting that allowing people to carry concealed handguns reduced the crime rate. (In fact, he wrote in an August, 2001, New York Post column, "In up to 98 percent of the cases, simply brandishing a gun is sufficient to stop a crime.")

The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence counters that crime was falling throughout the nation in the 1990s, and in fact fell slower in states that allowed people to carry concealed handguns.

Victimology

But what about GLBT people who carry handguns?

Bob Smith, a straight guy at the first meeting, had an interesting way of putting it. "Gays are nice people," he said, "and nice people make good victims."

He's got a point, at least metaphorically. The image of the helpless homosexual who got beat up every day on the playground and now minces around as if made of glass doesn't seem to want to go away. Everyone watches Jack McFarland; no one watched Butch Gamble (John Goodman's gay character on Normal, Ohio).

Compounding the pervasive belief that GLBT people are weak is the fact that many out-of-town, closeted GLBT people will visit a gay bar when they come to the Twin Cities. That they're closeted often means they carry cash in order not to use a check or a credit card at a gay bar. And it means they're less likely to report an assault or robbery. So if you're a thug who can wave a gun, grab a wallet, and run away, you're likely home free.

OutFront Minnesota, the state's largest GLBT advocacy organization, has not yet taken a position on handgun ownership. OutFront deputy director Doug Federhart describes himself as "being more of the Gandhi school of things." He says, "Speaking from a personal perspective, I just don't think it's ever a good idea to respond to violence with more violence, even if it's in self-defense."

A missing piece of this conversation is that it's pretty difficult to get a permit to carry a concealed handgun in many parts of Minnesota. Most people are allowed to have a gun in their homes, but they can't tuck it into their briefcase or backpack and carry it around. Permits are issued at the discretion of a city's police chief. Good luck getting one in the Twin Cities.

Burkholder had a license when she lived in New Hampshire, but didn't need one when she lived in Vermont. "I usually carried then, but I never had to use it. It really was a shock to come to Minnesota and discover Minnesota's attitude toward guns," she says. "The government treats me the exact same as a criminal. We have the same chances to get a conceal carry permit. That hurts. That's really hard."

Her years of safely carrying a handgun and her successful completion of gun-safety courses count for nothing. "The government doesn't trust us," she says. Clearly, arming a bunch of people in a call to fight back creates its own dangers. Having more guns around means having more accidents. And little incidents - someone looks at someone wrong, or two people get into a shoving match - can escalate quickly when one's packing heat.

And vigilantism. No member of Pink Pistols will ever tell you that they want to arm and train queer people so that we can all go settle some scores. But one gets a sense that some Pink Pistols members wouldn't mind engaging the enemy.

For example, Burkholder opposes non-concealed carry permits - where a person could just carry a handgun in plain site. "That's a very bad idea," she says. "The idea with concealed carry is that no one should know you have it. If there is criminal intent, you've just tipped your hand. The criminal knows to avoid you."

Volk's interest in handgun-ownership stems from live-and-let-live philosophy. "My sense of justice," he says, "required that anyone be able to fend off hostiles." Volk invokes more WWII imagery when he says, "In real life, I'd like to see the brownshirts of all types to become an endangered species, thanks to the ability of their traditional victims to return fire with interest."

Range of response

Pink Pistols isn't saying you have to own a gun, or even that you ought to. Increasingly, Pink Pistols chapters are discovering the range of how to serve their members best. "Different chapters emphasize different things," founder Krick says. "Here in Boston, it's more focused on the handgun. The Virginia chapter will go out and do self-defense courses. Some people are talking about the possibility of hunting."

The message, fundamentally, is the same - that GLBT people aren't afraid of guns, or of fighting back.

Brad Fletcher probably best represents the middle-of-the-road Pink Pistol member. He's never fired a gun. "They scare me," he says. "It is such a dangerous weapon. There's really no challenge you can put back. A sword, at least you can fight back. People had a chance with things like that."

He was a little skeptical when he first heard about the local chapter's first meeting. "I thought, hmm, a gun group, huh?" he says. "I thought, Oh my God, what's going on, are we really getting some interesting faction groups in our community now? Is this going to be a dangerous thing? Something we need to be concerned about? What kind of wackos would go to something like this? And then we started talking, and I was like, phew, wipe the sweat from my brow. And then they said it was going to be more about self-defense, and a light bulb went off. Now I get it."

Fletcher himself was attacked in downtown Minneapolis in the early 1990s. After that, he took a few self-defense classes through community ed. He plans to continue being involved with Pink Pistols because it sounds like a comfortable place for him to learn more self-defense.

Bottom line

Your garden-variety patron does not walk into Over the Rainbow or the Saloon with a handgun. And it's unlikely they'd have a permit to do it legally, anyway, which actually does deter peaceful, law-abiding people. But consider this.

On Sept. 22, 2000, in Roanoke, Va., a man named Ronald Edward Gay walked into a gay bar called Backstreet Café. He opened fire, killing one person and wounding six others. The Washington Post reported that Gay told police that he was angry at jokes people made about his last name. He pleaded guilty to first-degree murder and is serving a life sentence.

What if he had heard about a group called Pink Pistols, where gay men, lesbians, bisexual people and transgendered people were learning to handle firearms? What if he'd heard that they were working for change in the concealed carry laws? What if he'd heard that they thought it was just flat-out wrong that they couldn't carry wherever they wanted?

Would he suspect some people at a gay bar might bend the rules a little and carry a handgun? Would he consider that the bartender might have a firearm behind the bar, and five years of target-shooting experience, and a faster draw than Doc Holliday?

Would he still have walked into the Backstreet Café looking - as he reportedly told police - "to waste some faggots"?

On one level, it doesn't matter if Pink Pistol members ever get the gun laws they want. As soon as they can create doubt in a potential attacker's mind, their most important work is done.

Even a peacenik like Federhart agrees. "I don't think that's necessarily a bad idea," he says. "I could see that as more of a psychological tool. I'm more a fan of psychological and nonviolent tools than of violence."


TOPICS: Activism/Chapters; Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Politics/Elections; US: Minnesota
KEYWORDS: banglist; guns; homosexual; minnesota; moosescankill; pinkpistols; pistols; shallissue
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This showed up in a local (Minneapolis) free paper, one of several that you find at the entrances to the coffee shops, art theaters, trendy restaurants, etc., in inner city Mpls and St. Paul.

The cover of the issue was the Pink Pistols logo and slogan, in black on pink - so even people who don't actually read it are going to see it.

The legislative session starts in a couple of weeks, and we'll be pushing concealed carry reform, again. Hopefully for the last time - the odds are in our favor. (We failed on a tied vote in the Senate last session, and we picked up seats in the election).

This couldn't have been better timed if we'd planned it ourselves.

1 posted on 01/02/2003 8:10:59 AM PST by jdege
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To: *bang_list; **Minnesota
Bump
2 posted on 01/02/2003 8:12:57 AM PST by jdege
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To: jdege
Best of luck, neighbor. We're trying for concealed carry in Wisconsin too. Republicans control the assembly and the house, with a Dem governor...you never know what might happen.
3 posted on 01/02/2003 8:13:53 AM PST by July 4th
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To: jdege
Seems I screwed up the html in the resources list in the article.

Try this:

Pink Pistols: www.pinkpistols.org
Twin Cities chapter: www.pinkpistols.org/local/tc/index.html
Twin Cities chapter email: twincities@pinkpistols.org
Guns-are-a-good-thing site: www.handguncontrol.net
Guns-are-a-bad-thing site: www.handguncontrol.org

4 posted on 01/02/2003 8:17:38 AM PST by jdege
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To: jdege
Somehow this hasn't stopped people from trying to kill us.

Media Overlooks Hate Crime Perpetrated By Homosexual?

The Homosexual Link To Pedophilia

They need to get the beam outta their own eye before pointing out the speck in the culture's eye.

Even if the queer community's growing - and overwhelmingly non-threatening - presence in pop culture

Non-threatening?

Yeah, sure. Tell that to Cardinal Law and all the other Catholic prelates nursing homo sexual priest abuse 2002 hangovers.

5 posted on 01/02/2003 8:20:28 AM PST by ckca
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To: jdege
[off topic]

What I want in a hand gun is .223 like performance (i.e. 2700 fps, small caliber, 55 to 60 grain bullet) in a small enough package (no larger than the 1911). Maybe someone has such a critter - I haven't been able to find one. Perhaps a sabot solution?

Anyone know of something that would be close?
6 posted on 01/02/2003 8:50:59 AM PST by taxcontrol
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To: ckca
"They need to get the beam outta their own eye before pointing out the speck in the culture's eye."

The acts of a tiny portion of homosexuals lead you to seemingly oppose the right of the rest of them to defend their liberties. Worse, you fail to see the importance of this segment to the public debate and to efforts to secure the liberties you and I hold most dear.

You don't have to like them to let them help you.
7 posted on 01/02/2003 8:51:51 AM PST by Beelzebubba
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To: jdege
I wonder if having 'limp wrists' adversely affects their shooting?
8 posted on 01/02/2003 8:59:21 AM PST by Eagle Eye
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To: Beelzebubba
it's the Bottom line i think ckca's worried about!
9 posted on 01/02/2003 8:59:48 AM PST by 1john2 3and4
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To: taxcontrol
Seems to me that the new 5.7x28mm ammo is what you are looking for:

http://www.fnmfg.com/lawenf/57ammoinfo.htm

10 posted on 01/02/2003 9:02:22 AM PST by jdege
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To: jdege
When your buddy goes bang...
11 posted on 01/02/2003 9:44:39 AM PST by joesnuffy
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To: taxcontrol
Not in a 1911 but in a cut down AR like the Rocky Mountain Patriot pistol...
12 posted on 01/02/2003 9:50:05 AM PST by joesnuffy
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To: jdege
More power to them. No one has any obligation to lay down and die just because some criminal wants to beat them to death. That applies to everyone.
13 posted on 01/02/2003 10:22:49 AM PST by punster
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To: jdege
Seems to me that the new 5.7x28mm ammo is what you are looking for:

How long has this round been available to law enforcement? If generally only LE and military routinely uses body armor, why is it necessary for LE to have body piercing ammo/weapons systems?

From the link, I suppose us peons in flyover country will never be permitted to own/use this ammo or sidearms chambered for it?

14 posted on 01/02/2003 10:48:49 AM PST by ckca
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To: Beelzebubba
acts of a tiny portion of homosexuals

A large percentage of homosexuals engage in sex with minors. Too large. Just ask the Catholic church.

lead you to seemingly oppose the right of the rest of them to defend their liberties

Where in my post does it say this?

They have the same constutional rights as you and me, no less and no more.

Those rights include the 2nd amendment rights.

15 posted on 01/02/2003 10:51:59 AM PST by ckca
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To: jdege
Pink Pistols have this breeder's suppport. I've wondered for years why more gays don't arm themselves. Not all gays are easy targets, but the ones obvious enough to get beat on are.

16 posted on 01/02/2003 10:57:58 AM PST by Britton J Wingfield
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To: jdege; ckca
I was thinking on the lines of a .22 sabot in either .30 carbine, .357 Mag or 9x23 Winchester. Do you know of any custom loaders that would be willing to take on such a project?
17 posted on 01/02/2003 11:41:14 AM PST by taxcontrol
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To: taxcontrol
Not exactly what you referred to, but an interesting cartridge:

Recognizing the enthusiastic acceptance of bottlenecked pistol cartridges (as evidenced by the .357SIG and 400 Cor-Bon) and looking to take advantage of their popular family of Guardian semi-automatic pocket pistols, NAA in the summer of 2000 began development of a new round. While the idea was spawned at NAA, it was nurtured by internationally recognized ballistics expert Ed Sanow, who remained as technical consultant throughout the 18-month project. Sanow was engaged to explore the concept, participate in identifying the target performance parameters, make engineering recommendations and conduct and quantify the ballistic testing of the resultant round, which is the recently introduced .32NAA.

"Almost everything I've learned about the science of ballistics has come from reading "Street Stoppers" : The Latest Handgun Stopping Power Street Results written collaboratively by Sanow and his co-author, Evan Marshall - Copyright ©1996, published by Paladin Press), said Chisholm. While often controversial and contradictory to many vested interests, Marshall and Sanows "logic and conclusions were incontrovertible ... authoritative and thoroughly researched ... these guys are the foremost authorities on this subject", according to John Farnam of Defense Training International. "It seemed an obvious choice to solicit advice from the best", Chisholm concluded.

For this project, NAA felt fortunate to attract Cor-Bon (manufacturers of the Glaser Safety Slug) as their design and manufacturing partner. Peter Pi, president, and his team at Cor-Bon are widely recognized experts in the development of very high performance cartridges. Cor-Bon first earned their reputation by developing a police-specified 9mm 115-gr. JHP (+P) round ("without a doubt, the most effective self-defense ammunition we have ever tested". Gun Tests 08/96), further burnished by their personal defense dominating .40S&W 135 gr. JHP. Additionally, Cor-Bon had previously demonstrated bottlenecking expertise with their 400 and 440 magnum handgun cartridges.

Some specs :

The .32NAA was built from the foundation of an ordinary .380ACP case, necked-down to house a .32 caliber bullet. Behind the neck, all case dimensions and configurations, including the extractor groove, rimless case, cartridge diameter and bolt face engagement are identical to the .380ACP. Cor-Bon determined that a headspace on the shoulder allowed a solid crimp on the bullet, reducing the possibility of the bullet pushing into the case from recoil and chambering. After finalizing a case design which maximized case capacity of the cartridge as well as allowing sufficient case neck so that a bullet would be held securely, Cor-Bon spent several months testing a wide variety of bullets of different weights and configurations, finally settling upon a proprietary design from Hornady. The platform for this new system is the existent .380ACP Guardian, appropriately bored and chambered for this cartridge ; no other mechanical changes were found necessary.

The results :

While disparagingly referred to by some as a 'mousegun', this pocket pistol and the Cor-Bon .32NAA cartridge combination yields some very impressive results. In summary, using custom commercial grade powders, the final load achieved 1222 f.p.s. and 199 ft.lbs. from the 2.5" barrel of the Guardian itself (1453 f.p.s. and 287 ft.lbs. from a 4" test barrel). Additionally, the .32NAA:

produces more velocity, more energy and more stopping power than any .32ACP, .380ACP or .380ACP(+P), with 15% less recoil (Power Factor) than the (+P),

penetrates 8.3" of gelatin after passing through 4 layers of denim, expanding to a .55" mushroom with a retained weight of 100%,

has a Fuller Index of 62% One-Shot Stops, compared to (for example) the .380ACP Federal 90 gr. Hydra-Shok at 53%. Asked about future derivatives, Chisholm indicated that the same team plans to follow-up with the .25NAA, a .32ACP cartridge necked down to house a .25ACP bullet, fired from a .32ACP Guardian-sized pistol. Originally conceived by noted gunwriter J.B. Wood, it is expected to be introduced later this year.

According to Chisholm, some have begun to refer to this mouse-caliber cartridge as "mighty" and "speedy", but certainly not "mickey". "Characterizations such as those are for others to make," said Chisholm, tongue in cheek. "My lawyer's plate is already full enough".


18 posted on 01/02/2003 12:03:31 PM PST by ckca
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To: ckca
Yeah, now that's more of what I'm talking about. Do you know if any manufactures or smiths are making the required mods?

Thanks for the pointer. I've never used Corbon but will go and visit their site!
19 posted on 01/02/2003 12:26:20 PM PST by taxcontrol
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To: jdege
Sounds like the Pink Pistols want the same thing that the majority of the CCW-holding population (myself included) want: our constitutional right to keep and bear arms in order to protect ourselves.

Good for them. The more of us who demand our rights to keep and bear arms, the better. And the less crime will pay...
20 posted on 01/02/2003 12:36:11 PM PST by islander-11
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To: ckca
"A large percentage of homosexuals engage in sex with minors."

If by this you mean a majority, you are full of it.

If instead you are intending a Clintionianly-deceptive message that even only one out of 1000 engages in such terrible acts, it is still too many, then fine.

If you are including minor-minor activity, then you may as well join Sarah Brady and the other anti-gun liars who similarly need to twist the truth to suit their message.
21 posted on 01/02/2003 12:40:52 PM PST by Beelzebubba
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To: taxcontrol
The big problem with getting that kind of muzzle velocity out of a handgun is barrel length - it takes either a very fast-burning powder or a long barrel to bring a 55-gr slug up to 2700 fps. A powder that fast-burning will produce very high pressures, which tend to dictate stouter construction than most folks want to tote around. A Remington XP-100 is, technically, a handgun, but as you know is quite a bit larger than a 1911. Even it has trouble achieving the muzzle velocity of a carbine in that caliber.

I did fire a .454 Casull that chronned out to about 1850 fps. 200 gr slug. I suppose it would have been more unpleasant to be on the receiving end, but the sending end wasn't what I'd call a walk in the park. Cleared muh sinuses...

22 posted on 01/02/2003 12:49:08 PM PST by Billthedrill
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To: taxcontrol
Do you know if any manufactures or smiths are making the required mods?

Presently, the only gun available is the NAA .32NAA. Its built on the NAA .380 frame, which is only slightly larger than the NAA .32 ACP.

I talked to Sandy Chisholm, the President of NAA arms, in November. He said this is a great little unique gun, but that in all honesty it is not pleasant to shoot.

Its wickedly powerful for such a small handgun.

Check out Sandy's comments and other reviews of the new NAA .32NAA handgun at North American Arm's website.

Note from the other post:

...the same team plans to follow-up with the .25NAA, a .32ACP cartridge necked down to house a .25ACP bullet, fired from a .32ACP Guardian-sized pistol..."

Very interesting too.

23 posted on 01/02/2003 12:54:54 PM PST by ckca
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To: Billthedrill
Very much aware of the power vs lenght of barrel issue. That is why my Remming 700 was purchased with a 28" barrel instead of the standard 24".

However, I am also aware that the weight of the bullet has a significant impact on the muzzel velociety as well. Since I'm going to be generally limited to a 6 - 7 " barrel, then the only trade off I have is to decrease the size of the bullet.

Per recent post, Cor-bon shows some interesting pistol muzzle velocities - namely one of their loads was showing 1700 fps. I beleive that was with an 80 grain bullet. Could I get 2000 using sabots and .22s? Who knows. Nice mental exercise anyway.

Now, 2700 may not be acheiveable, but I am a beleiver in high velocity so my search will continue.
24 posted on 01/02/2003 12:56:28 PM PST by taxcontrol
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To: Beelzebubba
"A large percentage" means neither a majority nor minority.

Peer reviewed studies consistently show that 1/4 to 1/3 of homosexual males have engaged in sex with minors.

25 posted on 01/02/2003 12:57:12 PM PST by ckca
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To: taxcontrol
Anyone know of something that would be close?

Desert Eagle in .50 AE or ...

The BMF by Reeder Custom Guns might be something you'd want. The BMF

It's got a bit of recoil though.

26 posted on 01/02/2003 1:08:56 PM PST by Centurion2000
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To: Centurion2000
But that is not what I'm looking for. I don't want a pistol that shoots a big piece of lead. I want a pistol that shoots a SMALL chunk of lead - VERY fast.

It's the diffence between the .308 which is great for long shots and the .223 which is great up close. Basicly, I'm looking to get .223 out of a pistol.

Now I know there are .223 pistols, but most of these are not exactly concealable, and when you look at the balistics out of a .223 cartridge out of a 13" barrel, I'm less than impressed.

Maybe I'm asking for too much.
27 posted on 01/02/2003 1:24:42 PM PST by taxcontrol
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To: Centurion2000
Man, that thing hurts me just looking at it.
28 posted on 01/02/2003 1:32:15 PM PST by Billthedrill
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To: Billthedrill
Update from my last post. The ammo that provided the 1700 fps was:

400 CORBON 101gr BeeSafe 1700 fps/648 ft/lbs

I understand that to be a .45ACP necked down to a .40 / 10 mm. Now can we put in a sabot with a .22 (at 50 grains) and get the fps up to 2000 or more? That would be a hot load and more of what I'm looking for.
29 posted on 01/02/2003 1:36:04 PM PST by taxcontrol
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To: ckca
And how many of those incidents happened when both participants were minors?

What percentage of heterosexuals had relations with a minor?

The thought of two heterosexual sixteen-year-olds engaging in sex raises questions of judgement, but provides no sense of predation. Ditto, for example, heterosexual activity between an 18-year-old and a 17-year-old.

The number you mention does not, even if true, provide any indication of how likely homosexuals are to engage in molestation or abuse.

30 posted on 01/02/2003 1:39:57 PM PST by jdege
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To: July 4th
Best of luck, neighbor. We're trying for concealed carry in Wisconsin too. Republicans control the assembly and the house, with a Dem governor...you never know what might happen.
And the best of luck to you too neighbor. We here (Illinios)have a Demorat Senate,house, and The Rod Bjagovish as gov. Concealed carry?
I quote from Rods own web page
Congressman Rod Blagojevich (D-Illinois, 5th District) has taken steps to make Chicago neighborhoods safer from crime and guns, improve education and win federal funding for Chicago area projects. A former prosecutor, Blagojevich (pronounced bla-GOYA-vich) has earned a reputation as a leader on preventing gun violence. In the current session of Congress, Blagojevich passed legislation that stopped a Pentagon program that indirectly allows civilians to buy armor-piercing, .50-caliber sniper ammunition, which is capable of piercing bulletproof glass and tank armor. And, in a program that he created last year that puts prosecutors in the community to devise creative legal solutions to nuisance crimes, Blagojevich won grants totalling $300,000 for the community prosecution programs at the Cook County State’s Attorney’s office and the City of Chicago corporation counsel’s office. The grants came from the $5 million that Blagojevich secured last year to create the nation’s first-ever pilot community prosecution program. At the height of the Balkan conflict in the spring of 1999, Blagojevich arranged a trip into the war zone and enlisted the cooperation of Rev. Jesse Jackson to talk to Yugoslav authorities about freeing three captive U.S. soldiers. After several days of negotiations and a three hour meeting between Blagojevich, Jackson and Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic, the soldiers were freed. Blagojevich and Jackson reunited the soldiers with their families at a U.S. military base in Germany. Blagojevich passed the only gun-control legislation to become law during the 105th Congress. The measure allocated $1.25 million to trace guns found at crime sites and, for the first time, added Chicago to the list of cities where the gun tracings occur. Thanks to the legislation, Chicago police traced 10,000 guns and discovered, for the first time, that all but 98 were sold in illegal, black-market deals. Blagojevich was the first to raise concerns about gun shows, where criminals can exploit a loophole in federal law by buying guns cash-and-carry without background checks. Blagojevich filed legislation requiring gun show promoters to perform Brady Law background checks. The idea has won the support of James Brady, who was shot in the assassination attempt on President Reagan.

Welcome to my nightmare. Nice hair-helmet huh?
31 posted on 01/02/2003 1:42:18 PM PST by Brasky
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To: ckca
So have many heteros. But then it is called statuatory rape.
32 posted on 01/02/2003 1:47:00 PM PST by Bella_Bru
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To: ckca
I'd be very carefule relying on Sanow and Marshall. From what I've been reading recently, there analysis leaves much to be desired.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs31.htm

33 posted on 01/02/2003 1:47:29 PM PST by asformeandformyhouse
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To: taxcontrol
Haven't found any sabots in that caliber yet. Still looking...

Now, there's some flechette loads with some verrrry interesting numbers...

34 posted on 01/02/2003 1:49:27 PM PST by Billthedrill
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To: Billthedrill
flechette loads?????

Who is making flechette loads and aren't those restricted to military and police only?
35 posted on 01/02/2003 2:17:05 PM PST by taxcontrol
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To: jdege; Bella_Bru; Beelzebubba
Homosexual Abusers

However, the known data on priestly sex abusers - and on abuse by homosexuals in general - does, in fact, point to a causal connection.

Philip Jenkins, author of Pedophiles and Priests: Anatomy of a Contemporary Crisis, has intensively researched the subject of clergy sex abuse. Jenkins, professor of history and religious studies at Pennsylvania State University, based much of Pedophiles and Priests, which was written in 1996, on data released by the Archdiocese of Chicago following abuse scandals there in the early 1990s.

Commenting last spring after the current scandal erupted, Jenkins noted that most clergy-abuse cases have involved minor boys who have sexually matured. "The proper word for a man who has sex with a boy of 16 or 17 is homosexuality," Jenkins said.

Sociological data also indicate that homosexuals as a group are far more prone than heterosexuals to engage in sex with minors.

"Although heterosexuals outnumber homosexuals by a ratio of at least 20 to 1, homosexual pedophiles commit about one-third of the total number of child sex offenses," said Tim Dailey, a senior fellow for culture studies at the Family Research Council.

Dailey released a report in May detailing the link between homosexuality and abuse of minors and noted that even homosexuals acknowledge the link.

"In The Gay Report, by homosexual researchers Karla Jay and Allen Young, the authors report data showing that 73% of homosexuals surveyed had at some time had sex with boys 16 to 19 years of age or younger," Dailey said.

*****

The answer is indisputable: It’s a homosexual problem

“Relatively little attention has been paid to this phenomenon by Church authorities. Perhaps it is fear that it will call attention to the disproportionate number of gay priests,” Fr. Cozzens answered.

Cardinal Adam Maida of Detroit agreed: “What the behavioral scientists are telling us, the sociologists, it's not truly a pedophilia-type problem but a homosexualtype problem.'' —Associated Press, April 23, 2002

"The overwhelming majority of the sexual abuse cases involve adult men having sex with teenage boys and young men, and by ordinary English usage we call that a homosexual relationship." —The Rev. Richard John Neuhaus. —New York Times, April 19, 2002

“The major problem of the current scandal is homosexual ephebophilia — the attraction of adults to same-sex adolescents. We are talking in this case about a great problem with homosexual behavior...At the root of the present scandal is not pedophilia, but homosexuality.” —Dr. Gladys Sweeney, Institute for the Psychological Sciences, reported by Zenit News Agency, “The World Seen From Rome”, June 6, 2002

Homosexuals admit: It’s a “gay” problem

Hastings Wyman, syndicated homosexual columnist, wrote: “Perhaps because they don’t want to provoke the ‘intergenerational sex’ defenders — sadly, there are some within the gay community — neither (major ‘gay rights’ lobby has) addressed the main problem among the Roman Catholic clergy, that of adults having sex with teenage boys...the pattern of sexual abuse among Catholic clergy does suggest a gay problem…90 percent of the cases of sex with adolescents that have come to light in the Church involved teenage boys, not girls. Do the math.” —Between the Lines, May 22, 2002

“Many of the victims of clergy abuse in Boston, as elsewhere, have been adolescent boys, and not the prepubescent children who are victimized by the standard pedophile,” said Joe Murray of the homosexual group Rainbow Sash, a Detroit homosexual newsmagazine reported. —Between the Lines, March 13, 2002

Syndicated lesbian columnist Paula Martinac openly admits: “Some gay men still maintain that an adult who has same-sex relations with someone under the legal age of consent is on some level doing the kid a favor...It's not pedophilia, this thinking goes, pedophilia only refers to 'little' kids. Instead, adult-youth sex is viewed as an important aspect of gay culture.” —Between the Lines, March , 2002

"Based on data from a study of non-incarcerated child sex offenders, Gene G. Abel, M.D., has found that homosexuals 'sexually molest young boys with an incidence that is occurring five times greater than the molestation of girls.'" —World Net Daily, October 5, 2000

"In proportion to their numbers (about 1 out of 36 men), homosexual males are more likely to engage in sex with minors: in fact, they appear to be three times more likely than straight men to engage in adult-child sexual relations,” reports the National Association for Rehabilitation and Treatment of Homosexuality.

Among convicted child molesters, “86 percent of offenders against males described themselves as homosexual or bisexual.” —Archives of Sexual Behavior 17 (1988):83

36 posted on 01/02/2003 2:47:29 PM PST by ckca
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To: ckca
From a Catholic source. The same people that felt it was more important to protect their precious hierarchy than the children in their churches.
37 posted on 01/02/2003 2:49:30 PM PST by Bella_Bru
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To: asformeandformyhouse
Thanks. I've heard of the controversy.

My philosophy is buy and practice with what you'll carry regularly, regardless of caliber. A .32 in your pocket is worth far more to you than a .45 locked in a gun safe at home, regardless of which has "better stopping power."

38 posted on 01/02/2003 2:50:46 PM PST by ckca
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To: taxcontrol
Oh, I don't think they're commercially available at all to date - the numbers I saw were out of a couple of articles on lab tests of the next military munitions. But they did come in at somewhere around the numbers you're suggesting, and they're about the only thing I've ever heard of that do...more later...surfing for gunstuff at work displeases the boss...
39 posted on 01/02/2003 2:53:28 PM PST by Billthedrill
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To: Bella_Bru
Catholic sources? What kinda Bru are you sniffin'?

Archives of Sexual Behavior 17 (1988):83

Philip Jenkins

The Gay Report, by homosexual researchers Karla Jay and Allen Young

Tim Dailey, a senior fellow for culture studies at the Family Research Council

Associated Press

Between the Lines

World Net Daily

National Association for Rehabilitation and Treatment of Homosexuality.

40 posted on 01/02/2003 2:55:37 PM PST by ckca
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To: Billthedrill
Found this site:

http://www.rbcd.net/

Claims
2036 fps .45ACP pushing a 90 grain bullet.
2400 fps 10mm pushing a 77 grain bullet.

But the really hot load:
2600 fps 9x23 Win pushing a 50 grain bullet

Looks like I may have found a winner!
41 posted on 01/02/2003 2:56:09 PM PST by taxcontrol
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To: ckca
The first link was catholic.net.
42 posted on 01/02/2003 2:59:09 PM PST by Bella_Bru
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To: Billthedrill
Found this site:

http://www.rbcd.net/

Claims
2036 fps .45ACP pushing a 90 grain bullet.
2400 fps 10mm pushing a 77 grain bullet.

But the really hot load:
2600 fps 9x23 Win pushing a 50 grain bullet

Looks like I may have found a winner!
43 posted on 01/02/2003 3:00:33 PM PST by taxcontrol
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To: Bella_Bru
Yep, and the entire excerpt is composed of quotes by non-Catholics. So your (biased anti-Catholic) point is?....
44 posted on 01/02/2003 3:02:55 PM PST by ckca
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To: ckca
If it was in a Catholic mag, it obviously suits their agenda. That is, their problems resulted only from homosexuality, not their own pride and arrogance that they were somehow above the law.

And as an ex-Catholic, I can tell you arrogance is something that the church is ripe with. Someone might want to tell them that in the U.S., they do not have the same status as Native Americans or the Amish. They can be prosecuted like the rest of us.

45 posted on 01/02/2003 3:07:01 PM PST by Bella_Bru
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To: Britton J Wingfield
I know a few =)
46 posted on 01/02/2003 3:09:35 PM PST by MatthewViti
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To: taxcontrol
MagSafe:

The final goal - to have the world's fastest ammo, yet with much less recoil than standard (slower) ammunition - was really tough.

However, hot loads are now offered like the .45 ACP SWAT Load, which clocks 2,160 + feet per second (fps) in a five-inch auto, yet has about one-third the recoil.

The 9mm Mini-Glock Load cruises along at about 2,000 fps from Glock's teensy Model 26, yet has far more stopping ability than the nastiest .357 magnum or 10mm hollowpoint in the world. Yet the recoil is about like shooting low-powered target loads!

I carry magsafes.

47 posted on 01/02/2003 3:11:26 PM PST by ckca
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To: taxcontrol
MagSafe numbers:

welcome
magnum performance price list and specs
 
BEST ALL-AROUND DEFENSE LOADS
 
Caliber
Load # and Name
Wt.
Velocity and Energy Data
$/pk
Special Info
.25 ACP
#25D + P Defender
22
1,750 fps/150fpe in Beretta 21; 1610/127 in PSP-25
14.95
Doubles Factory Energy
.32 ACP
#32X 36-grain X-Load NEW!
36
1,450+fps/168 ft-lbs in SEECAMP. Really FAST!
14.95
Super Potent in Any Auto
.32 H&R Mag
#32 HD Defender
50
1,700 fps/321 fpe
14.95

.380 ACP
#380D Defender
60
1,500/300-SIG 230; 1,360/246-AMT Backup DAO
14.95
Potent Defense Load
.380 ACP
#380 MAX+P+
52
1,720/342-SIG P-230; 1,620/303-Colt Mustang
14.95
Not for Davis or Grendel P-10
9mm Luger (Para)
#9S+P Stealth
64
1,950fps/540fpe-Glock 17 Replaces#9P Load
15.95
Best All-Around 9mm Load
9mm Luger-NEW
#9MG Mini-Glock Load
50
2,000fps/444 ft-lbs in Glock M26 (or other3.5" gun)
15.95
Best for Short-Barrelled Autos
9mm Luger
#9D Defender
60
1,800fps/431 ft-lbs in Glock 19
15.95
Lowest Recoil of Any 9mm Load!
.38 Special
#38D Defender Std. Pressure
52
1,620/303 in 3" 642 Lowest recoil & pressures
15.95
For Alloy-Framed Guns
.38 Special
#38W SWAT Load
68
1,420/304-2"; 1,490/335-3" Light recoil, low flash
15.95
Breaks Apart in Sheetrock
.38 Special
#38 MAX+P
65
1,670/402-2" S&W Model 60; 1,804/469-3"
15.95
Potent. Now OK in Small Guns
.357 Magnum
#357D Defender
70
1,730/465-2" SP101; 1,860fps/538 ft-lbs-4"
15.95
Deep Pellet Penetration
.357 Magnum
#357W SWAT Load
68
1,700/436-2";1,790/483-3"
15.95
Breaks Apart in Sheetrock
.357 SIG
#357SIG Defender
64
2,150fps/657 ft-lbs in SIG 229. Low recoil and flash
15.95
PRICE REDUCED!
.40 S&W
#40D Defender
84
1,800fps/604fpe-Glock 22 Light recoil
16.95
Rated Best by Ed Sanow
.40 S&W
#40 SWAT Load
46
2,100fps/451fpe-Glock 22 Lightest recoil!
16.95
Epoxy Core, Low Recoil
.40 S&W-NEW
#40G Mini-Glock Load
72
1,940fps/601 ft-lbs in Glock M27
16.95
BIG Firepower in Short Guns
10mm
#10D Defender
96
1,800/960-5" Colt Delta Elite. Low recoil!
16.95
MAX 10mm Power!
10mm
#10W SWAT Load
46
2,400/588 ft-lbs in Delta Elite
16.95
Epoxy Core, Low Recoil
.44 Special
#44SD+P+Defender
92
1,620/535-3" Bulldog 1,830/684-4"DWA
16.95
MAX Bulldog Power
.44 Special
#44W SWAT(aka Urban Defense)
94
1,500fps/470 ft-lbs 3" Charter Bulldog
16.95
Breaks Apart in Sheetrock
.44 Magnum #44MD Defender 117 1,860/899-4"; 1,960/998-6" No Flash 16.95 Best Defense Load
.44 Magnum
#44W SWAT (Urban Defense)
94
1,800fps/676 ft-lbs in 4" Dan Wesson
16.95
Breaks Apart in Sheetrock
.45 ACP
#45D + P Defender
96
1,660/588-Officer's; 1,760/-5"S&W 645
16.95
General Defense Use
.45 ACP
#45SS + P SUPER SWAT
68
2,260/771-S&W 4506 Standard springs OK
16.95
Stronger! Now OK for Glock 21
.45 L. Colt
#45CD + P Defender
96
1,700fps/615 ft-lbs
16.95

7.62x25 Tokarev
#7.62 TOK Defender
52
2,120fps/519 ft-lbs in Tokarev pistol
15.95
A Real SIZZLER!
9mm Makarov
#9MAK + P Defender
51
1,700fps/327 ft-lbs in FEG Model PA63
15.95
Stopping Power Like a .45 ACP
.30 M-1 Carbine
#30 Carbine SWAT Load
52
2,400fps/665 ft-lbs in M1 GI Carbine
17.95
Functions in Semi-Auto Rifles
7.62x39 Russian
#7.62R SWAT Load
80
2,750fps/1,343 ft-lbs - Ruger Mini-30
17.95
Functions in Gas-Autos
 
Defender Loads: Penetration of 8" to 13". Greater stopping power of any hollowpoint ammo in its caliber. Loads in this section are OK for use in alloy-framed guns and have some penetration to defeat car doors and glass, or one or more home walls or doors.
 
SWAT Loads: Safest for HOME DEFENSE! Low recoil and wall penetration. massive kinetic energy dump. OK in alloy-framed guns.
 

""Maximum Effort" Loads: "MAX" Loads offer magnum performance, yet less recoil than standard, less powerful JHP ammo.

 
Rifle Loads: Created for snipers and hostage response teams, but the 80-grainers drop deer-sized game like a lightning bolt at 100+ yards.


48 posted on 01/02/2003 3:12:50 PM PST by ckca
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To: Bella_Bru
And as an ex-Catholic, I can tell you arrogance is something

Fortunately, ex-Catholics are obviously immune to such arrogance...(/sarcasm)

49 posted on 01/02/2003 3:14:37 PM PST by ckca
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To: ckca
I think homos kill their boyfriends quite often as well. Not sure it's a good idea for the pink panty wearing men to be carrying... they're too emotional and they tend to go of
50 posted on 01/02/2003 3:25:00 PM PST by johnb838
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