"We are all sodomites now: a case for sexual freedom" -- by Andrew Sullivan

New Republic via andrewsullivan.com ^ | March, '03 | Andrew Sullivan

[Qwerty]

"This takes us to uncomfortable places. Several years ago, for instance, some Dallas policemen were fired because they had practiced bestiality. Would this case allow them to sue?"

Honestly I can't imagine that people having sex with animals is this huge problem society faces. It happens every day out on sheep ranches but you never really think about it. I think it's sick, and I think it's animal abuse, but in the grand scheme of things it's just a nothing event. It'll never be mainstream.

I think the bigger issue is still whether or not people have the right to choose who they have sex with.

"Similarly, laws against polygamy, incest (between consenting, related, adults), and so on are out the window."

Again, incest is disgusting but I think once you have consenting adults I don't know if there is much reason to throw them in jail for it. Polygamy is another issue entirely because it involves marriage. Since the state becomes involved in the marriage then it has an interest and therefore a say in who can marry... except in the case of religious marriages, I think the state should stay out of them. "But, in typical narcissistic fashion, they fail to look beyond their own bottom line to the wider implications of their quest."

Oh ok. We should just sit back and get arrested because after all.. if we're allowed by the government to have sex, next thing you know it will be a Mexican donkey show in every living room in America. Right?

[man of Yosemite]

Nobody was able to keep the 10 commandments, and that is why God established a new covenant through his Son, Jesus. Those who enter in to this new covenant experience a spritual birth where God writes his laws on their hearts, not on tables of stone. We receive the imputation of righteousness, resulting in a new desire to serve God from our hearts in spirit and in truth. The outward form of any religion is worthless without the inward transformation of the heart. People who receive Christ as their Lord and Savior have more of a desire to please God by their actions because the reality of God's love is witnessed from within.
I suppose homosexuality is a hot topic because it is very clearly being shoved at people in an attempt to make it accepted as normal behavior.

[Paul C. Jesup]

Take a look at post #56, by msimon.

[Jerez2]

Finally, someone knows what 'jerez' means!
I didn't know that about the casks -- either sherry-to-whiskey or vice-versa.
But the alcoholic connection is amusing...
kinda like when I moved from Joost Street to High Street (think about it!) :-)

[man of Yosemite]

What I mean is that a reckless, anything goes lifestyle brings much destruction into society. The men of Sodom reached a place of evil that their lives were destroyed. Homosexuality is not a victimless lifestyle; many practicing homosexuals have died prematurely. Many have commited suicide, and others have forced their desires upon innocent youths, destroying them for years. God will judge, and often his judgment comes sooner than later.

[Jerez2]

My Funk & Wagnalls says 'carnal copulation between male persons.'

[Porterville]

Man, this guy loves soddomy...I have never seen such a long arguement about but love...of course I don't care...but his passion is an amazing testement to his mental gymnastics to his system of belief...of course, I know that soddomy is unnatural by it's very nature...so no matter how passionate you are about addiction, you are still just an addict to crack....no pun intended.

[Porterville]

You know another thing, as much as I love my male friends, I can never imagine having some sexual attraction to them, it just isn't normal...take it to the logical extent what a sexaul relationship between to men entail...I mean, men look funny naked already...(and a little bit gross and hairy)...I know I'm no beuaty Queen and I know no man is as pretty as me...so, I don't care what folks want to do with each other; we are just souls in a husk of flesh, men and women equaly...but how weak does your mind have to be, to wanting to be dominated by your brothers??? Or even your sister??? You power and squander it on ideas that seem to be little more than obsessions that one feels need justification that society dismisses outright. In otherwords, NOBODY CARES ANDREW EXCEPT THE GAY AND THOSE IN THE CLOSET WITH THEIR OBSESSIONS LIKE THE PRETTY SENATOR

[r9etb]

Thank you very much for validating my take on Sullivan's logic. Bestiality, incest ... fine with you.

Polygamy -- well, hell, that's marriage, so it's different. It's not like they're trying to pusg gay marriages down on us or anything.... Oh, wait. Yes they are.

[Porterville]

I won't go as far as calling it evil as much as it is a fad...it is a popular movement like Brittany Spears or Madonna. It is the right of every person to express themselves sexualy, but people today, are trying to make bell-bottoms (a fad) a right of law...who cares...

[3LostLegions]

Morality-based laws are statements about society's shared values. If a society is not bound together by collectively accepted moral values -- as America was during its Judeo-Christian era -- then what holds the society together? What do the members of the society have in common?

[Porterville]

It is your right of an American, not as a subject to the Christian God...which I suscribe and believe in feircly and lovingly although I am not deserving of God's graces, I have seen his hand save my worthless ass many times, and I must say, I should have been dead long ago...that said...You want to be gay in America, I will fight for your right to be free to choose, but I can still tell you your wrong in your choices...because, it is your life and right to choose what you want to do...

[Porterville]

One more thing, I am likely to burn in hell then many gay people, because of my transgretions....I have betrayed many and I am certain to betray more... it is the curse of man to betray the goodness of God...respect your brother and respect his right to make decision on his own part (he is on his own journey)

[Qwerty]

"Thank you very much for validating my take on Sullivan's logic. Bestiality, incest ... fine with you."

No.. as I said they are NOT fine with me.

"Polygamy -- well, hell, that's marriage, so it's different. It's not like they're trying to pusg gay marriages down on us or anything.... Oh, wait. Yes they are."

Surely you see why this case has nothing to do with changing the definition of marriage. Consensual sex has nothing to do with a contract that the state is part of.

[Qwerty]

"Morality-based laws are statements about society's shared values."

Yes.

"If a society is not bound together by collectively accepted moral values -- as America was during its Judeo-Christian era -- then what holds the society together?"

Society is still held together by collectively accepted moral values. It is still wrong to cheat, steal, rape, murder, etc. Whenever you find someone being taken advantage of by force or fraud, society almost to a man collectively disapproves.

"What do the members of the society have in common?"

Plenty. Our adherence to the Constitution of the United States, and a love of freedom.

[Dec31,1999]

"The Torah says explicitly that deviant sexual behavior is an abomination." So is mixing fibers.

So is eating fish without scales. And so is eating animals without hooves.

Nonetheless, same-sex sexual behavior is not a good thing, by any stretch of the imagination, and should not be encouraged.

[AmericanVictory]

Not true. While this argument is often seized upon by homosexual propagandists it is not accurate. Even in the worst days of sexual laxity in U.S. society, the percentage of male homosexuals who practice anything close to monogamy is tiny, less than 10%, while the percentage of hetorosexual marrieds doing the same is on the order of far better than 50%. The difference is the stability of our civilization.

Further, it is misleading to speak of these things as if they were recent developments when in fact they go back far beyond biblical times. And America, on the whole, has been far more inclined to faithful hetorosexual married life than most other societies. Indeed one of the most amusing parts of this propaganda of the homosexuals is the implication that sodomy and its associated acts are "modern" as if invented contemporeously with, let us say, the transistor. Now you wish to extend this same misleading insinuation to hetorosexaul unfaithfulness.

[sakic]

Anything is morally-licit within a heterosexual marriage provided it is consensual and in no way degrading to either partner.

Who'll decide what's degrading? Couples not married I presume from your words are by definition acting morall-illicitly. What should be the government's punishment for these behaviors?