Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

The Pleistocene Extinction
atlantisquest ^

Posted on 07/25/2003 7:32:42 PM PDT by ckilmer

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100101-150151-160 next last
To: ckilmer
And how long will it be until some liberal bastion of higher learning gets a million dollar grant to prove that it was caused by second hand cigarette smoke??
101 posted on 07/27/2003 8:22:03 AM PDT by Spok
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

Comment #102 Removed by Moderator

To: headsonpikes
Velikovsky wrote a whole book on this subject in 1955 and doesn't get even one word of mention in this article. Read Earth in Upheaval (if you can find a copy- it took me 6 months to find a used copy). He covers everything in this article and more. From the article:

"Massive piles of mastodon and sabre-toothed tiger bones were discovered in Florida (Valentine, 1969).

From Velikovsky (Earth in Upheaval, p151):

" On the Atlantic coast of Florida, at Vero in the Indian River region, in 1915 and 1916, human remains were found in association with the bones of Ice Age (pleistocene) animals, many of which either became extinct, like the saber-toothed tiger, or have disappeared from the Americas, like the camel.

The find caused immediate excitement amoung geologists and anthropologists. Beside the human bones pottery was found, as well as bone implememnts and worked stone. Ales Hrdlicka, of the Smithsonian Institution of Washington, D.C., a renowned anthropologist (who generally opposed the view that man existed in America in the Ice Age), wrote that the "advanced state of culture, such as that shown by the pottery, bone implements, and worked stone brought from a considerable distance, implies a numerous population spread over large areas, acquainted thoroughly with fire, with cooking food, and with all the usual primitive arts"; the human remains and relics could not be of an intiquity "comparable with that of fossil remains with which they are associated." He also published the opinion of W.H. Holmes, head curator of the Department of Anthropology of the United States National Museum, who investigated the pottery obtained by Hrdlicka from Vero. These were bowls "such as were in common use amoung the Indian tribes of Florida." When compared with vessels from Florida earth mounds, "no significant distinction can be made; in material, thickness of walls, finish of rim, surface finish, color, state of preservation, and size and shape," the vessels "are identical." There thus appears " not the least ground in the evidence of the specimens themselves for the assumption that the Vero pottery pertains to any other people than the mound-building Indian tribes of Florida of the pre-Columbian time."

But the bones of the man and his artifacts (pottery) were found amoung the extinct animals. The discoverer of the Vero deposits, E.H. Sellards, state geologist of Florida and a very capable paleontologist, wrote in the debate that ensued: "That the human bones are fossils normal to this stratum and contemporaneous with the associated vertibrates is determined by their place in the formation, their manner of occurance, their intimate relation to the bones of other animals, and the degree of mineralization of the bones." This "degree of mineralization of the human bones is identical with that of the associated bones of the other animals." In his view the evidence obtained " affords proof that man reached America at an early date and was present on the continent in association with a Pleistocene (Ice Age) fauna." Anthropologists of the Hrdlicka school would not accept this, claiming a late arrival of man on the American continent, and the presence of pottery was in their view proof of a late date for the human bones. The human sculls, though fossilized, did not differ from the skulls of the Indians today.

In 1923-29, thirty-three miles north of Vero, in Melbourne, Florida, another such association of human remains and extinct animals was found, "a remarkably rich assemblage of animal bones, many of which represent species which became extinct at or after the close of the Pleistocene (Ice Age) epoch." The discoverer, J.W. Gidley, of the United States National Museum, established unequivocally that in Melbourne - as in Vero- the human bones were of the same stratum and in the same state of fossilization as the bones of the extinct animals. And again human artifacts were found with the bones. The "projectile points, awls, and pins" found with the human bones at Melbourne as well as at Vero are of the same workmanship as those unearthed in early Indian sites, two thousand of which are known in the area.

All these and other considerations of an anthropological as well as geological nature, being summed up, prove in the opinion of I. Rouse, a recent analyst of the much-debated fossils of Florida, that "the Vero and Melbourne man should have been in existance between 2000 B.C. and the year zero A.D." This does not solve the problem of the association of extinct animals and man who lived between two and four thousand years ago, in the second and first millennia before the present era.

There is no proper way out of this dillemma, other than the assumption that now extinct animals still existed in historical times and that the catastrophe which overwhelmed man and animals and annihilated numerous species occured in the second or first millennium before the present era.

The geologists are right: the human remains and artifacts of Vero and Melbourne in Florida are of the same age as the fossils of the extinct animals.

The anthropologists are equally right: the human remains and artifacts are of the second or first millennium before the present era.

What follows? It follows that the extinct animals belonged to the recent past. It follows also that some paroxysm of nature heaped together these assemblages; the same paroxysm of nature may have destroyed numerous species so that they became extinct. "

103 posted on 07/27/2003 8:30:43 AM PDT by the-ironically-named-proverbs2
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: All
Now it's time for a shameless plug! I am in the early stages of designing an exhibit of fossils to be shown at the Old County Courthouse Museum in Santa Ana, California starting in early February. It will consist of fossils uncovered during the building of the Eastern Transportation Corridor. It will include earlier Cretaceous samples such as a dinosaur called the Hadrasaur, and many newer ones like whales, Megladon sharks, mammoths, mastodons, American lions, Desmostylus (a kind of early hippo), and various plants. Just about very period from 100 million years ago through the ice age will be represented. If you live in Southern California please come see it!
104 posted on 07/27/2003 8:36:20 AM PDT by SoCal Pubbie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: the-ironically-named-proverbs2
See RightWhale's #65.

One does not have to accept Velikovsky's hypotheses to be intrigued by his data base. Evidence is overwhelming that catastrophic events have happened relatively recently, and more can be expected in the not distant future.

The Uniformitarians are dead dead dead, but the PEers never acknowledge Velikovsky's work - too embarrassing, I guess. ;^)
105 posted on 07/27/2003 8:51:56 AM PDT by headsonpikes
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 103 | View Replies]

To: SoCal Pubbie
Will do!
106 posted on 07/27/2003 8:52:44 AM PDT by null and void
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 104 | View Replies]

To: headsonpikes
The interesting thing about the Florida evidence is that it ties historically modern man with these events and fossils of supposedly 10,000 to 12,000 years ago. I actually saw a show recently on the Discovery channel (IIRC) that actually dated the extinction of the saber toothed tiger as recently as 2000 years ago in North America.

A link that I googled up on the human fossils in Florida: http://www.rootsweb.com/~flindian/veroman.htm

FYI, in case you've never read it, Velikovski's Earth in Upheaval is not about theory- it's a book full of physical evidence and footnotes. I was amazed at the amount of evidence he compiled that I had never even heard of. I did a lot of on-line searching to check the existence of some of it (since everyone says he's a crackpot) and was able to corroborate much of it (the existence of it at least- not necessarily the dating).

Embarrasing indeed.

107 posted on 07/27/2003 9:22:25 AM PDT by the-ironically-named-proverbs2
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 105 | View Replies]

To: the-ironically-named-proverbs2
I read Velikovsky 35-40 years ago. Ages in Chaos, Worlds in Collision, and Earth in Upheaval are each intriguing. His vivid descriptions of these bone and carcass masses convinced me that catastrophic events on a planetary scale did, indeed, occur within historical memory, however much fragmented and mythologized.

His accounts of comets and planets swerving around like bump-a-cars I found somewhat less compelling.

I've always enjoyed autodidactic outsiders...if one can avoid agreeing with their conclusions, they usually present at least a fresh perspective on subjects normally rigidly disciplined by an Establishment of some kind.

Oswald Spengler is another iconoclast worth reading, if you can avoid being ensnared by his goofy, romantic German metaphysics.

Spengler's perspective on the Culture that produced Mohammad and Islam is well worth reading.
108 posted on 07/27/2003 10:13:40 AM PDT by headsonpikes
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 107 | View Replies]

Comment #109 Removed by Moderator

To: Atlantin
"...with Mantle-type mineralogy...formation appears to take place at mantle depths."

Well, the diamonds therein are formed from subducted carbon, hundreds of kilometers deep, apparently.

And what physics would drive these extraordinary kimberlitic events, given an expanding earth?

'Chaotically-emplaced breccia' hardly captures the unique nature of these mini-volcanos.
110 posted on 07/27/2003 7:23:23 PM PDT by headsonpikes
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 109 | View Replies]

To: Battle Axe
A near miss with a very large comet or planet like object would answer a lot of questions. Huge tides causing worldwide tsunamis, shifting of Earth's axis as well as it's solar orbit, tremendous volcanic activity spewing toxins and smoke into the sky obliterating the sun and causing "nuclear winter". If this object was accompanied by large asteriods with one or two hitting the earth, it explains quite a bit.
111 posted on 07/27/2003 7:47:45 PM PDT by Bob J (Freerepublic.net...where it's always a happening....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

Comment #112 Removed by Moderator

To: Battle Axe
Consider a planet size body at the moon's distance. It could create tidal actions several hundred feet high. As the earth rotated, these tides and subsequent tsunamis would repeat on roughly a 24 hour basis for as long as it's proximity created gravitational forces.

As far as whether it is on a solar rotation...who knows. It is possible for a planet with an extremely large ellipse and long rotational cycle (say 50-100k years) to appear to astronomers as an object outside our SS speeding away from earth. In that case, making a close encounter with earth on it's loop back around the sun would be stricly coincidental.

As far as seaweed and clamshells, those are constituents of the tidal plane and I would expect them to be deposited within several thousand feet of the seashore or less. Even under this theory of repeated tidal tsumnamis caused by the near miss of a planet, the entire tidal cycle would take 24 hours to complete. If we assume (for no particular reason) a 200 foot difference between normal and high tide, that would amount to about 8 feet per hour. Pretty significant but no flash floods. That would come when the rising tide breached natural terrain barriers and flowed in all at once to lower elevation areas.

It is interesting to note some of the similarities with the flood theory. I read a theory that at one time the Mediterranean (and maybe the Black and Baltic Seas) were shall fresh water lakes and some cataclysm causing sea levels to rise several hundred feet overflowed the natural barrier that existed between what is today the Rock of Gibralter and Morroco, flooding them with sea water and creating a huge opening that only widened as the sea level dropped.
113 posted on 07/27/2003 8:49:01 PM PDT by Bob J (Freerepublic.net...where it's always a happening....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 112 | View Replies]

Comment #114 Removed by Moderator

To: ckilmer; *Gods, Graves, Glyphs; lizma; shamusotoole
Gods, Graves, Glyphs
List for articles regarding early civilizations , life of all forms, - dinosaurs - etc.

Let me know if you wish to be added or removed from this ping list.

115 posted on 07/27/2003 10:04:16 PM PDT by farmfriend ( Isaiah 55:10,11)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: djf
I never understood how those guys always ran on new tires. Mine have all shown frightful weathering in 5 years or so.

BTW, shoot for radiators and then fuel tanks. Use enough gun and enough ammunition.
116 posted on 07/27/2003 10:06:55 PM PDT by SevenDaysInMay (Federal judges and justices serve for periods of good behavior, not life. Article III sec. 1)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 82 | View Replies]

To: farmfriend
Please add me to your ping list.
Thank you in advance.
117 posted on 07/27/2003 10:23:00 PM PDT by FreeLibertarian (You live and learn. Or you don't live long.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 115 | View Replies]

To: Atlantin
You do know that silane is pyrophoric, don't you?
118 posted on 07/27/2003 10:27:15 PM PDT by null and void
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 114 | View Replies]

To: FreeLibertarian
Consider yourself added. Thank you.
119 posted on 07/28/2003 12:07:41 AM PDT by farmfriend ( Isaiah 55:10,11)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 117 | View Replies]

To: Atlantin
An extremely intriguing hypothesis! I'm in no position to flatly contradict you - I will consult with a couple of my geologist pals. ;^)
120 posted on 07/28/2003 5:28:42 AM PDT by headsonpikes
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 114 | View Replies]

To: Atlantin
Talk about a lack of "synapses." You take the cake.

You happen to be talking to a personal friend of mine who is presently completing a graduate degree in Geochemistry.

121 posted on 07/28/2003 6:06:30 AM PDT by RadioAstronomer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 96 | View Replies]

To: djf; Right Wing Professor; Piltdown_Woman; Physicist; longshadow
I'm speaking of some type of rapid, large crustal displacement, the astronomical pole would stay the same, but worldwide, except for antipodal nodes, the latitudes would change.

From what I have read, the evidence from the mid Atlantic ridge does not support this. However, it does support the fact that the MAGNETIC poles reverse. Also there may be tens of millions of years between each of these events. (Note; should not effect the plate tectonic drift rates)

However, I am NOT a geophysicist so I will leave this up to far more qualified folks than I to correct me if I am wrong here.

122 posted on 07/28/2003 6:18:12 AM PDT by RadioAstronomer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 95 | View Replies]

pole reversing placemarker
123 posted on 07/28/2003 6:33:12 AM PDT by js1138
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 122 | View Replies]

To: LasVegasMac
that think all their nuclear waste should go to Nevada

It would be better to store it on the moon,
but of course if it detonated the moon would be
thrown out of orbit.

124 posted on 07/28/2003 6:50:22 AM PDT by ASA Vet ("Those who know, don't talk. Those who talk, don't know." (I'm in the Sgt Schultz group))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Piltdown_Woman; Atlantin
What a charmer! Tell me, did you attend the G3K School of Affrontery? If you did, you must have aced the coursework.

Could be that Chuckie Cagle pried himself off of usenet and dropped himself on Free Republic! A Usenet kook of Medvedian proportions!

125 posted on 07/28/2003 7:11:50 AM PDT by ThinkPlease (Fortune Favors the Bold!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 97 | View Replies]

Comment #126 Removed by Moderator

Comment #127 Removed by Moderator

To: ckilmer
To all of you posters who are interested in this stuff. Go get Bill Bryson's new book, "A Short History of Just about Everything."

He spent three years talking to real bright folks and translating the data into something that most of us can understand.

128 posted on 07/28/2003 8:31:33 AM PDT by Movemout
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Atlantin
Possibly more so than you.

Rilly? How many silane fires have you put out?

129 posted on 07/28/2003 8:43:09 AM PDT by null and void
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 126 | View Replies]

To: Atlantin
My contention is that the bulk of the Geochemistry and Geophysics being taught to graduate students such as your personal friend will face the same fate as the G. de Vaucouleurs tome. Plate Tectonics with Subduction I expect to see rejected in my lifetime as I also expect the Halton Arp model to replace most of the Standard Model in Astronomy. What Cal Tech and generally the Astronomical community did to Arp is unconscionable.

I wonder, then, what is your mechanism for an expanding earth? Or the Standard model. You do know that Arp's model has long been shown to be statistically untenable, right?

130 posted on 07/28/2003 10:18:47 AM PDT by ThinkPlease (Fortune Favors the Bold!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 127 | View Replies]

To: Atlantin
You are the genius who started the insults with your: "Sigh...Democrats and Liberals have done their jobs well. Not only do we have a nation of non-thinkers, but they now go so far as to deny the existence of empirical evidence..."

You took a general lament personally...

Of course the ACE thinker, Piltdown_Woman, never answers any of the 10 points of empirical evidence I raised on where Plate Tetonic Theory is NOT born out by the hard facts of data. Said in another way: the predictions of what one would expect to find associated with a subduction zone, are not born out when one actually examines such a zone. The logic tight mind of Piltdown_Woman has a response however: when the thinking gets hard, deny that the other point of view exists by Calling such thoughts Pseudo Science.

...and have resorted to emotionally-driven, personal attacks.

You are the person having a temper tantrum. I just answered you in kind. If you reread my posts, the vitriol begins with your insults. The actual problem appears to me that you lack critical thinking about the topic. To you the question is settled: Plate Tectonics is not just a theory; it is revealed truth.

More personal attacks, but with a new wrinkle: now you can actually read my mind.

Plate Tectonics is now dogmatized yet an objective examination of its predictions leaves much to be desired as the ten points I raised demonstrated. ( I could have easily have raised 10 more.)

10 points? Hmmm...if you are in reference to this post you made only 6 statements.

2. collapses when examined under the laws of physics ( less dense crumbly material some how diving into a vastly more dense medium without a source of energy or mechanism even postulated as to how this is done );

I have only one thing to say about this obvious falsehood. Oceanic crust is high in magnesium. It is not "less dense" than high-silica continental crust, nor is it "crumbly"...and yes, it can and does subduct under relatively bouyant continental crust. Please see my previously posted links for an introduction to plate tectonics.

4) it ignores the Hydritic model for the deep earth quake data.

Indeed...because support for this hypothesis comes from the Creation Research Society.

As far as your other questions, I suggest you enroll in an introductory geology class at a local junior college - the subject of plate tectonics is covered quite well at this level.

131 posted on 07/28/2003 12:09:41 PM PDT by Aracelis (Oh, evolve!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 102 | View Replies]

To: Atlantin
My chief professor, I recall, told me my head was in the clouds

Could you possibly mean, your Advisor???

132 posted on 07/28/2003 12:41:17 PM PDT by Aracelis (Oh, evolve!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 127 | View Replies]

Comment #133 Removed by Moderator

To: Atlantin
...any hapless sap who couldn't READ HIS MIND as to answers he expected on the topic.

Been there, been that helpless sap. Went to a college where that was the standard style of teaching.

134 posted on 07/28/2003 1:52:17 PM PDT by js1138
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 133 | View Replies]

To: Atlantin
Ah, but he was tenured and therefore above reproach, question, or error.

Right?
135 posted on 07/28/2003 2:00:04 PM PDT by null and void
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 133 | View Replies]

To: Atlantin
ping for later refuation of this nonsense
136 posted on 07/28/2003 2:04:08 PM PDT by dirtboy (Free Sabertooth!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 96 | View Replies]

To: Atlantin
2) Plate Tectonitc creed pairs spreading ridges with trenches. New crust added at the mid ocean ridges is balanced by old crust being subducted at the trenches. Therefore spreading ridges and trenches should be paired. But the mid Atlantic ridge has NO trenches either along the Atlantic coasts of America nor Europe or Africa

Of course, if you go across North America you'll find subduction zones on the other side. Nice try, but this was accounted for years ago in plate techtonic theory, with the Atlantic-type/Pacific-type model.

137 posted on 07/28/2003 2:06:12 PM PDT by dirtboy (Free Sabertooth!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 96 | View Replies]

To: Atlantin
not to mention the absence of an energy source to power such a plunge

Try radioactive decay within the Earth itself.

Try to make whipped cream plunge into and below the ice cream in a sundae.

Try to put a styrofoam block against one end of a pool and then slide a semirigid plastic sheet against it. Try tracing the depths of earthquakes around subduction zones. Try correlating andesitic volcanic chains to subduction zones. In other words, look at the natural world and devise a theory, instead of devising a theory and then twisting the natural world as you have done.

138 posted on 07/28/2003 2:09:33 PM PDT by dirtboy (Free Sabertooth!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 69 | View Replies]

Comment #139 Removed by Moderator

To: Piltdown_Woman; Atlantin
As far as your other questions, I suggest you enroll in an introductory geology class at a local junior college - the subject of plate tectonics is covered quite well at this level.

A basic astronomy class would not hurt as well.

140 posted on 07/28/2003 6:44:19 PM PDT by RadioAstronomer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 131 | View Replies]

Comment #141 Removed by Moderator

To: djf
science has accepted the fact that continents can move. And I have to confess that I am a pole-shift theory advocate, because all of the evidence points towards something that modern science can't explain

Wouldn't drifting continents and shifting poles appear similar? IE, the position of the poles with respect to the continents changes.

142 posted on 07/28/2003 7:38:30 PM PDT by Virginia-American
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 94 | View Replies]

To: Virginia-American
The astronomical pole would stay the same, if you watched all night, the sky would still revolve around the north star, Polaris. Barring there were no tilts in the obliqueness of the axial tilt of the Earth. But he pole star would change in elevation above the horizon.
143 posted on 07/28/2003 8:05:55 PM PDT by djf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 142 | View Replies]

To: Atlantin
I never met him, but I've met enough of his clones to hate him sight unseen.
144 posted on 07/28/2003 9:29:36 PM PDT by null and void
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 139 | View Replies]

Comment #145 Removed by Moderator

Comment #146 Removed by Moderator

Comment #147 Removed by Moderator

Comment #148 Removed by Moderator

Comment #149 Removed by Moderator

To: Atlantin
I have no mechanism for an expanding earth.

Doesn't mean it's not true (Although I'm VERY skeptical). Proposing a mechanism too early was Wegener's error:

"In his reconstruction of Pangaea, not only did the shapes of the pieces fit together, but any number of geological features--ancient glacial deposits, for example--also fit together. It was like matching the picture on a jigsaw puzzle. But most geologists either ignored or ridiculed Wegener and his continental drift. The most valid reason for ignoring him was that Wegener's driving mechanism just had to be wrong--he pictured the drifting continents plowing through the deep solid Earth like ships through the ocean, and geologists rightly refused to believe that this was physically possible" - Walter Alvarez, T.rex and the Crater of Doom.

150 posted on 07/30/2003 11:01:12 AM PDT by null and void (Silane isn't all that nasty, you always know when you have a leak!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 149 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100101-150151-160 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson