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The Pleistocene Extinction
atlantisquest ^

Posted on 07/25/2003 7:32:42 PM PDT by ckilmer

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Comment #51 Removed by Moderator

To: Battle Axe
I don't know if the bison roamed in the hills or if they were exclusive flatlanders.

Horses can out run bison today.

In short bursts. I *think* a bison can run a horse into the ground in the long haul.

The difference between being a sprinter and a marathon runner. Perhaps this difference in "wind" goes with an ability to surive a lower oxygen level.

That's three testable hypothesis. Do bison roam the hills? Can a bison out marathon a horse? -and- Can marathoners get by with less oxygen than sprinters?

52 posted on 07/26/2003 9:26:54 AM PDT by null and void
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To: Battle Axe
I find it fascinating that the North American cows (bison) and the goats (deer and antelope) survived where the camel and horse did not. All herbivores where there would appear to be little competition for food. Predators would take them on an equal basis. Any thoughts on this?

Interesting. I dont think horses and cows would be taken equally by predetors. Although a bull cow is very dangerous, I would think the horse would survive over cows, horses are faster than cows, smarter than cows, have more herd/protection instinct, and are good fighters. The horses' demise must have been because of a preference of horse meat over cow meat, or else by a disease that affected horses and not cattle.

53 posted on 07/26/2003 11:12:50 AM PDT by waterstraat
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Comment #54 Removed by Moderator

To: djf
There was an event 28,000 years that killed a bunch of mammoths and other animals at one riverbank near Waco, TX.

http://www3.baylor.edu/Museum_Studies/mammoth.htm
55 posted on 07/26/2003 11:28:18 AM PDT by ValerieUSA
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To: LasVegasMac
Did someone say Mt St Helens?


56 posted on 07/26/2003 11:32:52 AM PDT by ValerieUSA
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To: null and void
"In short bursts. I *think* a bison can run a horse into the ground in the long haul."

Humans have more endurance than any mammal alive.

57 posted on 07/26/2003 12:08:50 PM PDT by blam
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To: waterstraat
The question is: "What would kill all the 6 foot beavers, and leave all the 2 foot beavers?

Maybe a better question would be: "What would kill all the 6 foot beavers, and not kill all of the 2 foot beavers?"

It's a subtle difference, but the these beds of frozen animals contain many species that are not extinct. In other words, the disaster affected all species but did not make them all extinct.

58 posted on 07/26/2003 12:25:49 PM PDT by e_engineer
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To: djf
A total of ten events near Portland yesterday, and four more so far today. Mt. djf is rising!
59 posted on 07/26/2003 12:28:11 PM PDT by djf
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Comment #60 Removed by Moderator

To: blam
Humans have more endurance than any mammal alive.

Only because we sweat...

61 posted on 07/26/2003 1:36:49 PM PDT by null and void (A stern chase is a long chase...)
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Comment #62 Removed by Moderator

Comment #63 Removed by Moderator

To: ckilmer
Bump for later.
64 posted on 07/26/2003 2:36:06 PM PDT by I got the rope
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To: headsonpikes
Velikovsky started one of his books with a tour of the carcass fields of Fairbanks, Alaska. I happen to live in Fairbanks, and if Siberia is anything like this, they, too, are walking on wooly mammoth bones and saber-tooth tiger hides everywhere they set foot. The valleys are filled with frozen muck 100 feet thick, and the muck is filled with mostly clay-like frozen dust and these carcasses. We call it muck, but when it dries it is just dust. It's not solid with carcasses, you see, but there plenty of them. When they cleared the muck overburden with steam and water points and water giants, tons of these carcasses came to light. The top levels of the muck are layed down in thin layers, probably as annual deposits of wind-blown loess, but I don't know that when you go deeper there are any layers at all but it all came in at once like in a huge storm. Something happened, but we just build our cabins on top and live happily ignorant of prehistoric events.
65 posted on 07/26/2003 2:37:50 PM PDT by RightWhale (Destroy the dark; restore the light)
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To: Atlantin; Piltdown_Woman
Yes, there is a mid ocean ridge and rift valleys as well as other surface structures that may be interpreted as evidence for "plate tectonics," but these crustal features also can be explained as as consequence of the earth expanding.

Ever hear of subduction zones?

66 posted on 07/26/2003 2:39:25 PM PDT by RadioAstronomer
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To: ckilmer
Paleontologists the world over know that something catastrophic happened to the large mammals roaming the world during the Pleistocene Epoch. Woolly mammoths, mastodons, toxodons, sabre-toothed tigers, woolly rhinos, giant ground sloths, and many other large Pleistocene animals are simply no longer with us.

But the Moose is. The Moose is the last of the Pleistocene creatures. And the Moose is still very much alive.

67 posted on 07/26/2003 2:41:40 PM PDT by MrsEmmaPeel
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To: RightWhale
I've read about some of these debris fields. They find entire, intact skeletons right next to crushed bones and critters that were literally torn apart, ripped to shreds. Whatever happened, no way was it just a bunch of animals decided this would be a nice place to lay down and die and spend their last few hours. Entire forests have been found, under layers of muck, looking like they went thru some sort of cosmic blender.
68 posted on 07/26/2003 2:42:56 PM PDT by djf
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Comment #69 Removed by Moderator

Comment #70 Removed by Moderator

To: djf
Entire forests have been found, under layers of muck, looking like they went thru some sort of cosmic blender.

Sounds like a tsunami driven turbidite deposit. I wonder if there is a crater in the arctic sea?

71 posted on 07/26/2003 7:35:46 PM PDT by null and void
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To: null and void
Don't know. I know they have found coral reefs off of Norway, which is odd, since coral won't grow unless the water temp is 87 or so. Haven't heard if they dated the coral or how old it is.
72 posted on 07/26/2003 7:48:31 PM PDT by djf
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To: ckilmer
Anotherinteresting thing is that a while back, Discovery had something about the Pyramids. The Great Pyramid has a shaft that goes from the center, to the edge, and the sky is plainly visible looking up the shaft.
According to texts, the shaft is supposed to point towards "The dark spot in the sky that never moves". The final destination of the soul of whoever got entombed in the pyramid.

Trouble is, in the northern hemisphere, there's only one point in the sky that never moves. But it ain't dark. A very bright star called Polaris sits there.
73 posted on 07/26/2003 8:07:43 PM PDT by djf
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Comment #74 Removed by Moderator

To: djf
kAcknor Sez:

I remember a book I read very many years ago called "The HAB Theory". I don't remember the author's name. Fiction, long winded and not enough action for the teenager I was.. ;)  

However, its main plot was that the earth's poles would periodically become so heavy with ice that the planetary wobble increased in a rapid fashion resulting in the poles swapping out with the equator.

Don't know enough to say that makes any sense in this thread, but it sure would explain tsunamis, massive bone piles, frozen mammoth with buttercups in their mouths and a 4000-mile walkabout in the direction of the magnetic pole. ;)

"bIlujlaHbe'chugh bIQaplaHbe'" (If you cannot fail, you cannot succeed.)

Have you checked the *bang_list today?

75 posted on 07/26/2003 8:26:30 PM PDT by kAcknor
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To: Atlantin
Da*m, how did you do that?? ;)

Hapgood was the one!

76 posted on 07/26/2003 8:27:44 PM PDT by kAcknor
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To: kAcknor
It was written by Alan Eckert. I have it on one of my bookshelfs.
77 posted on 07/26/2003 8:34:58 PM PDT by djf
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To: djf
It was written by Alan Eckert. I have it on one of my bookshelfs.

kAcknor Sez:

OK, Thanks.

I must be confusing the memories of the book and the actual theory I've also read about.

Old brain, long day.

"rut yIHmey ghom Hoch." (Everyone meets tribbles)

Have you checked the *bang_list today?

78 posted on 07/26/2003 8:42:14 PM PDT by kAcknor
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To: kAcknor
No, you're not. Eckert admits his hero in the book "Howard A. Boardman" is based at least in part on the work of Hugh Auchincloss Brown.
79 posted on 07/26/2003 9:17:38 PM PDT by djf
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To: ckilmer
Bookmark bump
80 posted on 07/26/2003 9:19:56 PM PDT by Bernard Marx
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To: Battle Axe
Earth's mass is increasing from the cosmic dust, aka ether lint, continually dropping in, such as sand grain sized shooting stars, smaller and larger.

A passing planetoid could rock us off the tilt or suck away some atmosphere. Any such gravitational pull could ripple our crust unleashing all kinds of fire & brimstone and gasses for world wide fatalities. Some speculation is the "super storm" with 200-300+ mph winds and continent sized storms; only little guys which can duck into shelter could survive.

What is interesting is that we are now just beginning to be able to do real primary research when the pantheistic human guilt trip religion of "global warming" has formalized.

No matter what happens or how sudden the catastrophe, those who can respond to change and make babies doing it may well survive in greater numbers or at least enjoy getting lucky with some ladies that think your the man while you all die. "Ladies, I did my best. Let's snuggle for another round."

Food, shelter, and protection. Aside from the trappings of modern mankind, ladies like a guy who can save their lives and keep them with child. Be a real Boy Scout. Be prepared. Be lucky. Get lucky.

Nearer to home, go get that extra 1,000 rounds for your VRWC Homeland Security arm, a true Patriot Act. How did you think that you could protect yourfuture harem while some 5 billion humans die around y'all.
81 posted on 07/26/2003 9:23:34 PM PDT by SevenDaysInMay (Federal judges and justices serve for periods of good behavior, not life. Article III sec. 1)
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To: SevenDaysInMay
Good advice all, but here's the best. Get the hell out of Dodge before the sh*t hits the fan. It's the urban zones that would be "Road Warrior" if there is any major upset.
82 posted on 07/26/2003 9:27:43 PM PDT by djf
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To: RadioAstronomer
Interesting to see a different crowd tackle age old problems.
83 posted on 07/26/2003 9:33:52 PM PDT by js1138
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To: js1138
Interesting to see a different crowd tackle age old problems.

It sure is!

84 posted on 07/26/2003 9:42:46 PM PDT by RadioAstronomer
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To: djf
Trouble is, in the northern hemisphere, there's only one point in the sky that never moves. But it ain't dark. A very bright star called Polaris sits there.

Polaris was not the Pole Star when the Pyramids were built. (Over a period of several years, there's no point that never moves.)

85 posted on 07/26/2003 9:56:24 PM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: Doctor Stochastic
You're probably right. I know about the precession of the zodiac. Don't know. Is a star able to move say, a degree, in 3,000 years? Seems like a pretty high amount of motion to me. 100,000 years, I could understand.
86 posted on 07/26/2003 10:07:06 PM PDT by djf
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To: djf
The precession of the Earth's pole has a cycle of about 26,000 years. Hipparchus knew about this about 2000 years ago.
87 posted on 07/26/2003 10:46:07 PM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: Doctor Stochastic
I'll check it in my copy of Flammarion...
88 posted on 07/26/2003 10:54:35 PM PDT by djf
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To: Battle Axe
"My feelings have always been that a comet knocked the earth off its axis, flung it further away from the sun, the force left the envelope of air behind (we lost some)and the earth had to recover in a colder, less oxygenated, less moist situation.
Any takers?"

No, No, No, you got it all wrong!!!!

The extinction occurred due to changes in the specification for automobiles thus allowing for the rise to prominence of the prehistoric S.U.V. which caused global warming and made all the animals sad so they died....

Err... no, wait, I mean the extinction occurred because of all the freon leaked out of the outdated and inefficient prehistoric Air conditioners and refrigerators which caused the ozone to be depleted and made all the animals sad so they died....

Err... no, wait, I mean the extinction occurred because all the cows farted...

89 posted on 07/26/2003 11:03:24 PM PDT by Mad Dawgg (French: old Europe word meaning surrender)
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To: Doctor Stochastic
You're quite right. Flammarion shows that about 2500 years ago, the closest to being a pole star was Alpha Draconis. Interesting, 13,000 years ago, Vega was the pole star!
90 posted on 07/26/2003 11:05:53 PM PDT by djf
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To: djf
Reading further, he says: "The Egyptians, who built their pyramids with admirable science nearly fifty centuries ago, designed galleries which penetrated the interior in the direction of the north pole and at an inclination of 27 degrees to the horizon, which is precisely the altitude which the pole star (alpha draconis) reached at its inferior crossing of the meridian at the latitude of Giza"

I got 2 much 2 rede.
91 posted on 07/26/2003 11:14:11 PM PDT by djf
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To: Atlantin; RadioAstronomer; js1138
Quote from Atlantin:"Subduction zones are concepts postulated by professors who are not versed in physics. They make no sense. Try to make whipped cream plunge into and below the ice cream in a sundae. It makes no sense given the difference in density of crustal elements and lower levels and the fragility of the crust not to mention the absence of an energy source to power such a plunge. A better term for it is Subduction Myth. Empirical evidence of such zones is also lacking."

Sigh...Democrats and Liberals have done their jobs well. Not only do we have a nation of non-thinkers, but they now go so far as to deny the existence of empirical evidence. For those who still have a few functional synapses, I present the following empirical evidence (obtained by Geophysicists) of SUBDUCTION ZONES:

Subduction zone studies - An introduction to the subject with many links.

Delaunay representation of slabs

3D simultaneous seismic refraction and reflection tomography of wide-angle data from the central Chilean margin

Andean Continental Research Program to image an active subduction - My personal favorite, with good images of seismic reflections of a subduction zone

92 posted on 07/26/2003 11:43:14 PM PDT by Aracelis (Oh, evolve!)
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To: djf
Where to start. Hmmmmmm....

The Earth is tilted on its axis from the plane of the ecliptic by 23.5 degrees. That tilt causes the North Pole to be currently pointed towards Polaris. As the Earth moves around the sun its pole stays pointed at Polaris. This is the cause of the seasons we experience. Note. This tilt varies back and forth from 21.6 degrees to 24.5 degrees approximately every 41,000 years.

There is also a precession of our pole and it sweeps a complete circle in the sky (think of the Earth as a top wobbling as it rotates) about every 26,000 years. (Hard to explain without a diagram)

There are also a number of other motions that must be taken into effect over the years such as the precession of the aphelion. Our Earth’s orbit around the Sun is not a perfect circle. It is an ellipse with the closest point of the orbit called the perihelion and the furthest point the aphelion. Currently the aphelion falls on the fourth of July. However, this is not always the case. The aphelion and perihelion change over the centuries and sweeps thru the calendar year with a periodicity of around 22,000 years. The amount of “squishing” (LOL now that’s a scientific term) of an ellipse is called its eccentricity. Note; the Earth's eccentricity is very small. However, even this changes over time. Its eccentricity varies periodically about every 100,000 years.

There are also other motions caused by the Moon, Jupiter and the Sun called Nutations. One of the major nutations has a period of 18.6 years. (There are others that must be computed as well when flying a spacecraft)

Now that we have that out of the way, we will now describe the Celestial Sphere. If we look at the stars in the night sky they appear to be stationary relative to each other. Even with the Earth moving from one side of the Sun to the other, the displacement due to parallax is less than one second of arc even for the closest star. One way of looking at this, is a fixed sphere of stars surrounding the Earth/Sun system. This is often referred to as the Celestial Sphere.

However, over time the stars do move relative to each other and relative to the Earth. This is why the right ascension and declination (star location) changes over the years. If you look at a star catalogue based on the epoch B1950 and one base on the epoch J2000, you will find a difference.

Another interesting item of note is that the constellations we see are made up of the brightest stars. Even in the same constellation these stars are at different distances from the Earth. Some may be dimmer than the others, however, being closer they are just as bright as a larger one further away. The brightness of a star is called its magnitude. There are two ways astronomers measure magnitude. Apparent Magnitude and Absolute Magnitude.

The Apparent Magnitude is how bright a star appears to us hear on the Earth.

The Absolute Magnitude is how bright a star would appear if it were exactly ten parsecs away from the Earth. (Close to 33 light years).

Two notes:

1) Apparent magnitude is usually denoted with a small “m” and absolute magnitude uses a capital “M”.

2) The magnitude scale is backwards of what you might think; the larger the number the fainter the object.

WOW, now that we got thru all of that, we see that the stellar positions and our relationships to them vary over the centuries.

93 posted on 07/27/2003 12:17:21 AM PDT by RadioAstronomer
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To: RadioAstronomer
Thank you. Considering I spent alot of my winter evenings in upstate New York with a telescope as a youngster, I've heard of most of this. I thought that when he spoke of Polaris not being the pole star, he was talking about relative motion. But Flammarion has a very nice diagram showing the cirular path of the pole during the 23,000 year cycle. And I remember a few years ago, when they discovered that star (was it Bernard's star?) that had the highest relative motion of any star yet discovered.
My whole point on this thread is that it has only been recently, in historical times, that science has accepted the fact that continents can move. And I have to confess that I am a pole-shift theory advocate, because all of the evidence points towards something that modern science can't explain. And I have been to Northwest Ontario, near Hudson Bay, and it looks to me like it is only now recovering from the ice cap. Hundreds of thousands of these little pothole lakes, the average elevation there must be only a foot or so, thousands of square miles of no distinguishing topography at all, except for the skeeters!
Regards,
djf
94 posted on 07/27/2003 1:02:20 AM PDT by djf
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To: RadioAstronomer
And when I speak of "pole-shift", I'm not saying the Earth suddenly flips over, the angular momentum is far to great. I'm speaking of some type of rapid, large crustal displacement, the astronomical pole would stay the same, but worldwide, except for antipodal nodes, the latitudes would change.
95 posted on 07/27/2003 1:29:39 AM PDT by djf
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Comment #96 Removed by Moderator

To: Atlantin
Your sources are more of the same BS that has been driven into the heads of IGNORANT and possibly STUPID university students for the past 50+ years. And, you use insult and call into question the intelligence of anyone disagreeing with what you have found on a ( probable ) google search. Talk about a lack of "synapses." You take the cake.

What a charmer! Tell me, did you attend the G3K School of Affrontery? If you did, you must have aced the coursework.

As far as your pseudoscience, you are welcome to it. I have no use for anyone who answers legitimate scientific evidence with a temper tantrum.

97 posted on 07/27/2003 1:54:09 AM PDT by Aracelis (If you cannot evolve, have the decency to depart)
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To: djf
I've seen some stuff on the positioning of the ancient pyraminds vis a vis the stars. from what I gather due to the recession of the equinox the relative positioning of the stars like polaris is not where it was 4500 years ago.
the roman mythra cult was dedicated to the recession of the equinox. I think the recession was first noted about 200-300 bc and it seemed like some godlike power was turning the celestial sphere to the geocentric greco romans.
98 posted on 07/27/2003 6:47:23 AM PDT by ckilmer
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To: Atlantin
In your 'expanding earth' hypothesis, how is the formation of diamondiferous kimberlites accounted for?
99 posted on 07/27/2003 7:43:26 AM PDT by headsonpikes
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To: Atlantin; Cuttnhorse
4) The Peru-Chile Trench. Where are the accumulated scrapings of oceanic sediments stripped off this 7000 km of oceanic lithosphere as it was driven down below the continental crust in the past 50 million years? They are not there. Some parts of the trench are empty and other parts the turbidite fill in the trench is derived from the land to the east and is quite different from the deep-sea oozes that should have piled up if subduction was a fact.

Cuttn, when you get back to your mining job in Chile, would you take a few and 'splain the local geology?

100 posted on 07/27/2003 7:50:00 AM PDT by null and void
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