Florida judge rules homeowners association can foreclose on man who defied flag rule

Associated Press ^ | 09-11-03

[Brian S]

A man who owes $21,000 to his homeowners association for flying an American flag from a 12-foot pole in his yard could lose his home next month to cover the debt.

Former Marine George Andres vowed to appeal Wednesday's ruling allowing foreclosure on his property, the latest chapter in a three-year legal saga that has drawn support from Gov. Jeb Bush.

[kimmie7]

In the event that the injustice takes place, I wish I were rich. I'd buy his house and give it to him -- free and clear.

[Semper Paratus]

Too bad a way couldn't be found to get this case before a jury.

[strela]

Sorry to see it come to this, but the man should have paid his honest debt to the homeowner's association before they had to take him to court. He willingly agreed to be subject to their rules when he moved into the neighborhood, and the HA has the perfect right to expect to be paid.

[11th Earl of Mar]

If he signed a Home Owners Agreement banning a flag, he is in the wrong.

There is nothing conservative about breaking a contract.

[Coop]

He may owe the association money, but there is NOTHING honest about this debt.

[Wolfie]

Damn, if we go around actually enforcing contracts, what's next?

[NYer]

He willingly agreed to be subject to their rules when he moved into the neighborhood, and the HA has the perfect right to expect to be paid.

This is so true! Yet many residents simply "forget" to read the by-laws, or decide to "challenge" the rules. As you pointed out, potential buyers should read the by-laws before moving into a HOA community.

[CSM]

What exactly is the $21,000 for? Does a home owners association sell the home? I thought that the typical scenario meant the HOME OWNER paid an association fee mandated by the location and services provided. I have never heard of anyone in any association buying the home from the association or being financed by the association.

Unless something I am stating above is completely wrong, then I would have thought the worst that could happen is that a lein would be placed against the title of the home. The lein could only be removed if he paid his accumulated fines or fees.

What am I missing here?

[kimoajax]

Have you even followed the case? The Association has not even followed their own rules.

[Arkinsaw]

Homeowners associations are merely local governments masquerading as private entities. Since they are not considered local governments they are not required to respect all of the liberties that we jealously guard from encroachment by other governments. As far as I am concerned they are an abomination. But if you don't want to turn your property and free speech rights over to a pseudo-government then don't buy a home that is governed by one of these entities. Go to the woods, go out in the county, and get yourself some real private property that is only governed by a real government bound by a real Constitution.

[dc27]

The HOAs can do whatever the hell they want. They can make you pay any fine. That is why I would never buy in a HOA. My friend lives in an HOA and they fined him for keeping a boat INSIDE his garage. What's next, no pool tables in your living room?

[Libertarianize the GOP]

ping

[white trash redneck]

Why am I not surprised that this attack on the flag is taking place in W. Palm Beach?

[ibheath]

Association Attorney Steven Selz said he hopes Andres decides to reach a settlement before his home is auctioned Oct. 9. "There has to be a way to give the association a right to enforce its claims on the property," he said.

This is the statement I find most disturbing. He owns the house, but the assoc. has a claim to the property. Give me rural livin!

[strela]

Have you even followed the case?

Yes, to a degree.

The Association has not even followed their own rules.

If it was a significant violation, then one or more of the courts this case has wound itself through should have seen that and invalidated the HA's claim or sanctioned them. The fact that none has is pretty damning evidence to me.

I think that anyone who buys into one of these insular little communities where Miss Grundy can tell you the size of the trash cans you can put out every week is a fool. Who would *want* to live in such a micro-managed, sterile "environment?" But, last time I checked, it is still legal to be a fool and to live under a microscope if you want to.

[strela]

Damn, if we go around actually enforcing contracts, what's next?

(whispers) dangerous concepts like free association, free speech, the right to peaceably assemble ...

Gosh, I'm such a radical ;)

[adx]

Go to the woods, go out in the county, and get yourself some real private property that is only governed by a real government bound by a real Constitution.

We have one of those? Where? </only half-joking>

[Wolfie]

I hear it from people I know all the time. The "damn homeowners' association" this, and the "damn homeowners' assocation" that.

So I ask 'em, "Why did you buy a house there?"

Most popular answer? "Oh, its such a nice neighborhood".

[38special]

It's very hard to find a home in a non-HOA neighborhood these days. The funny thing is the lawn police that go around looking for yards that need to be mowed.

[strela]

So I ask 'em, "Why did you buy a house there?" Most popular answer? "Oh, its such a nice neighborhood".

In spite of whatever else you might say about them, the Stepford Wives were hot.

[strela]

We have one of those? Where?

(raises hand)

The neighborhood I live in has one and only one restriction - you cannot raise swine on your property. Everything else goes.

[Wolfie]

Yes they were! And they knew how to keep their mouths shut too! (Boy, there's an oldie ripe for a re-make).

[strela]

And they knew how to keep their mouths shut too!

Only in public (leer, snicker, nudge nudge wink wink ...)

[So Cal Rocket]

The neighborhood I live in has one and only one restriction - you cannot raise swine on your property. Everything else goes.

Wow... a neighborhood with NO Democrats!!!

[strela]

a neighborhood with NO Democrats!

Some call it "damned inconvenient when you get a hankerin' for home-raised pork", but I just call it home.

[floriduh voter]

Do florida judges S***K or what? We're trying to Save Terri Schiavo's life over here on the Gulf side and they're trying to take George's house away AGAIN. I thought Charlie Crist put his foot down. Guess Crist only has superficial powers to intervene? Again, where is Governor Bush? He paid George's daily fine once.

I just can't believe it's over the United States Flag pole. Homeowner's associations also S**K. I've been there, done that.

[floriduh voter]

I thought they wrote into law that Floridians could FLY THE AMERICAN FLAG in the manner of their choosing because of George's case.

Was that just for the cameras and not really made into law? I feel like our leaders are playin' us in the public relations department. George is a freeper. I'm so sorry for him.

[floriduh voter]

The only thing I would have recommended is that George do his landscaping over and get rid of the bushes and lose the flagpole. But no matter what he does now, they want $21K. Has George called HUD yet? His Civil Rights are being violated.

[Poohbah]

This is the statement I find most disturbing. He owns the house, but the assoc. has a claim to the property.

Because he voluntarily agreed to grant the association said claim.

[floriduh voter]

kimmie, what are you doing in here? I feel like singing "you and me against the world."

[13foxtrot]

This is the statement I find most disturbing. He owns the house, but the assoc. has a claim to the property. Give me rural livin! The HOA covenant is a recorded interest in the property. When he agreed to the HOA covenants and restrictions he acknowledged that the HOA has a property interest in his home. (the fine print can hurt you)

[strela]

I thought they wrote into law that Floridians could FLY THE AMERICAN FLAG in the manner of their choosing because of George's case.

I think that law came about after the damage had been done (the HA paid the legal fees, etc). No ex post facto laws and all that.

[Liberal Classic]

I read somewhere that Florida Senate Bill 148 was modified in comittee such that it didn't explicitly describe flagpoles, and so a Mr. Andres became vunderable to appeal. This makes me sick. The state legislature and govenor enacted a law to allow homeowner to display one porable and removable flag whereas the original language prohibited homeowners associations for restricting the display of the U.S. flag.

This is in no way simply one man thumbing his nose at the law. Just the opposite, he fought the law and won. This became a political football when suddenly this man was going to lose his house to the homeowners association for flying the flag. Word of this got around the country and the state legislature stepped in and the govenor stepped in on his behalf. They signed a law upholding his rights to do what he did -- and still the traitorous lefitst nanniest judiciary want to violate the spirit of the law by upholding its letter.

Mr. Andres and his family have an open invitation to stay with my wife and I should the worst come to pass.

[Spunky]

"If he signed a Home Owners Agreement banning a flag, he is in the wrong."

From the Article: "The Indian Creek Phase 3B Homeowners Association permits flags flown only from brackets attached to house walls;"

It appears that it is the 12 ft pole they object to.

[Liberal Classic]

[floriduh voter]

We have the finest activist judges right here in Florida. They don't even follow the rule of law. LOL It's like IMPROV.

[Liberal Classic]

A government of men, not of laws. And comedians to boot!

[floriduh voter]

GEORGE ANDRES AND HIS ATTORNEY WERE JUST ON HANNITY & COLMES. The re-run of the show will be on after Greta and O' Reilly. Thought you might want to know.

[getmeouttaPalmBeachCounty_FL]

I think I heard Hannity say that, he's going to donate 5k to Mr. Andres' cause, and will raise the remaining money on his radio show. Hannity also said that after he does, he's going to help Andres erect another flagpole right next to the one in question.

(Isn't this something...I just brought this subject up on the "other thread" fv...and how Jeb personally jumped into this case.)

[billva]

I heard Hannity also. He said he would personally donate 5 thousand, raise the rest through his radio show and get the money to put up another flag right beside the one in question.

I love it.

[bert]

I followed this issue yesterday as it made its way through the day. The money due to the Homeowners Association is for their legal fees expended to win the case against him. He maintains his flag is legal per Florida law permititng the flying of the American Flag and that the law has precedence over the homeowner association agreement. He said the judge said in court that the law did not hold the primary rule and ruled for the association.

I later heard that the homeowners rules allowed American flags but only if flown from brackets on the house.

There is also the matter of the judgement. Apparently Florida prevents foreclosure except in three cases, and the judgement in question does not qualify. That is although there is a judgement and they can attach his bank account, his social security and fireman's retirement, they can't go after his house. They apparently already obtained $4100 fron the attachmnet of his bank account so there is only $15000 in question.

Work is being done to obtain an injunction to stop forclosure proceedings until the various legal issues that led to the original judgement can be run through the mill.

All the above is from various reports and the words of the flag raiser as best I can remember.

[mewzilla]

I believe the homeowners assoc may regulate the size and location of the flag, they just aren't allowed to prohibit the display. FWIW, FOX's Judge Napolitano's take on this subject was that this judge is all wet.

Though why anyone would choose to live in a place with a homeowners assoc is beyond me.

[djf]

Yup. It's a contract. I read something somewhere about not impairing the obligations of contract...

[Baklava]

Looks like eveyone is being an ass here. On one hand, this guy knew what the rules were and decided they didn't apply to him. On the other hand, the homeowners association is being unbelievably petty about the whole thing.

Although I dislike the idea of a homowner's association in the abstract, I've come to appreciate the concept after we got a real slob of a neighbor near our rural home. Junk cars, lawn not mowed for weeks at a time, piles of construction debris, garbage bags left outside to be torn into by animals--I swear I even saw a rat over there. I sure wish I had a homeowners association to make this guy clean up his act.

[pageonetoo]

Most jurisdictions now require a HOA be set up before they will start the ball for approval of a development plan... it makes it easier for the pols to accept plans, without the necessary homework!
What frequently happens is the HOA gets taken over by older retired folks with plenty of time, and prejudices, to devote to it, and then begin to mold it, without properly advising folks, most of the time, as to the ramifications of their actions!
It is a quasi-governmental agency, with the weight of the law behind it... and socialists just love them!

[openotherend]

The neighborhood I live in has one and only one restriction - you cannot raise swine on your property. Everything else goes.

We can raise swine, but we have determined it is in the best interest and more economical to buy pork products from "big pork". We cannot, however, burn a mattrass that has been rained on. Rules are rules.

[BlazingArizona]

There is nothing conservative about breaking a contract.

But there's most especially nothing conservative about screwing an ex-Marine out of his home for flying our country's flag. May this incident be yet another huge embarrassment to the legal "profession". That's about the third one this week.