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Explorers on the trail of Lost City of Atlantis
Telegraph ^ | October 27, 2003 | Roger Highfield

Posted on 10/26/2003 4:16:51 PM PST by sarcasm

An expedition to the Strait of Gibraltar may solve one of the world's greatest mysteries, reports Roger Highfield

For more than two millennia, many of the world's greatest adventurers, explorers and thinkers have sought the fabled Lost City of Atlantis.

Next month, an expedition to hunt for its remains among submerged Gibraltarian islands will be unveiled at the Royal Geographical Society, London, by a renowned geologist, Prof Jacques Collina-Girard, and the leaders of the Titanic expeditions.

First described by Plato in 360 BC, many have written off the story as a moralistic tale, a Utopia that was located in the mind of the Greek philosopher who used the demise of Atlantis as an allegory of how the best laid plans of mortals can go wrong.

But many have taken the lost world seriously. It inspired Jules Verne and Walt Disney, even Adolf Hitler. In 1882, the Prime Minister, Gladstone, tried (unsuccessfully) to persuade the Cabinet to fund an Atlantis exploration vessel.

Now it is to be sought by the Deep Med One expedition, planned for next summer by Prof Collina-Girard, of the University of Provence, with Commander Paul-Henri Nargeolet and George Tulloch.

The team will search a location about 20 miles south west of Tarifa, Spain, and 12 miles north west of Tangier. Using a submersible capable of reaching depths of 3,200ft, the expedition, backed by private investors and corporate sponsors, will look for signs of temples, buildings and prehistoric artefacts, such as tools and weapons.

"We hope to find artefacts there, but cannot predict this with total certainty as this area is totally unknown from a diving perspective," said Commander Nargeolet. "We will gather as much as we can in preparation for a second excavation expedition."

Plato said the island kingdom was larger than Libya and Asia put together. It was paradise: peaceful, cultured and unspoilt. A golden age continued for centuries, but eventually corruption got the better of its inhabitants and the gods punished them by submerging Atlantis.

Prof Collina-Girard believes that generations of Atlantis obsessives overlooked the most obvious location: Plato's account suggests Atlantis lay before the Pillars of Hercules - today's Strait of Gibraltar.

The professor came to this conclusion after studying the patterns of human migration from Europe into North Africa at the height of the last ice age, 19,000 years ago. To see if Stone Age people could have crossed the strait, he made a map of what the coastline looked like at that time, when the sea level was 420ft lower than today. This revealed an ancient archipelago with an island "in front of the Pillars of Hercules".

This island is now a shoal, called Spartel or Majuan Bank, which lies to the west of the strait, also as Plato described.

When he first outlined his idea two years ago in Comptes Rendus de l'Academie des Sciences, Prof Collina-Girard suggested that the archipelago provided stepping stones for early sailors to cross between Europe and North Africa until around 11,000 years ago. Then sea level rises accelerated to more than 6ft per century, according to records from coral reefs, swamping the island.

This fits the timing of the demise of the science-fiction-style superstate in Plato's Timaeus and Critias dialogues.

The story is told by Critias who said he heard it from his grandfather, who had heard it from Solon, his great-grandfather's contemporary, who in turn heard it from Egyptian priests, who were describing events that had occurred 9,000 years earlier - 11,000 years before the present day.

Plato suggests Atlantis is huge, whereas Prof Collina-Girard's candidate is nine miles by three wide. However, the professor argues that distances in Greek geography were usually approximate. The legend - and size - of Atlantis likely grew as storytellers embellished it as it was passed down to Plato.

Plato also reports that volcanic activity sank Atlantis, when the strait is not in a volcanic area. Perhaps this was more plausible than a change in sea level, said Prof Collina-Girard. As for an advanced Atlantean civilisation, the professor points to Plato's own admission that he grafted these details on to the tale to promote his own ideas about a Utopian society.

TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: archaeology; atlantis; catastrophism; cyprus; discovery; ggg; godsgravesglyphs; history; legends

1 posted on 10/26/2003 4:16:51 PM PST by sarcasm
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To: sarcasm
Let me guess: they are trying to find a link between what happened to Atlantis and the Bush family.
2 posted on 10/26/2003 4:18:58 PM PST by Paul Atreides (Bringing you quality, non-unnecessarily-excerpted threads since 2002)
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To: sarcasm
The evidence for a connection between Plato's Atlantis and the actual historical Minoan civilization is enormous. Plato drew on a report of an account in an Egyptian archive, and it appears that the numbers got upped by a factor of ten through a translation error.

Thus, Atlantis was not in the Atlantic, it was ten times closer, on the island of Crete. The dimensions of Atlantis are those of Crete, reduced by a factor of ten. The heyday of Minoan civilization was 900 years before Plato -- a factor of ten less than the 9000 years that Atlantean civilization was supposed to have existed.

The clincher is that Minoan civilization was destroyed overnight by tidal waves from the largest volcanic explosion in human history . . . which of course is a remarkable coincidence with the Atlantis legend.

Minoan civilization was advanced when the Greeks were in diapers. The Minoans were poised to dominate western civilization and culture. Then God stepped in.

3 posted on 10/26/2003 4:27:35 PM PST by JoeSchem
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To: sarcasm
if they greeks first heard about it from the egyptians then the egyptians would have been referring to the minoeans on the island of crete. that civilization traded with the egyptians for 1000 years or so until it was destroyed in about 1500 bc by the eruption of santorini
4 posted on 10/26/2003 4:29:43 PM PST by ckilmer
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To: Paul Atreides
Correct, the ancient Bush wouldn't sign the Athen's Treaty that banned the spread of fire, which caused gobal warming which caused the oceans to rise which caused Atlantis to sink under the waves.
5 posted on 10/26/2003 4:41:57 PM PST by sticker
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To: sarcasm
I'm only surprised that Ballard didn't get his name in here somewhere, he usually finds a way to horn in on all the big-publicity deep-sea projects.

This would sure be a kick in the rear to that guy in Cleveland who just came out with his revelation that Atlantis was near Cyprus.

6 posted on 10/26/2003 4:42:51 PM PST by KellyAdmirer
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To: JoeSchem
Sounds like a good theory to me -- By Jove, I think you've got it!
7 posted on 10/26/2003 5:03:34 PM PST by expatpat
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To: sarcasm
A golden age continued for centuries, but eventually corruption got the better of its inhabitants and the gods punished them by submerging Atlantis.

Must have been about the time attorneys and politicians came on the scene.

8 posted on 10/26/2003 5:18:58 PM PST by varon
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To: sarcasm
I never did buy that Santorini bit. They're looking in the right place. But Atlantis wasn't just a small inconsequential island. It was big.
9 posted on 10/26/2003 5:27:29 PM PST by Savage Beast (Truth is a relentless searchlight!)
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To: JoeSchem
Is anything known about the language of the Minoan civilization, i.e. what their name for their island, city-state was? Is this where the Linear A tablets were found?
10 posted on 10/26/2003 5:37:44 PM PST by WoofDog123
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To: WoofDog123
the name of the island the minoans lived on was crete. that was where the linear b tablets are found
11 posted on 10/26/2003 5:54:41 PM PST by ckilmer
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To: KellyAdmirer
Or that French fellow who is looking for it in the waters off Cuba and the Bahamas.

On the other hand, Troy was just a faded greek legend till a few decades ago.
12 posted on 10/26/2003 6:23:54 PM PST by SandfleaCSC
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To: farmfriend; RightWhale; sarcasm
"To see if Stone Age people could have crossed the strait, he made a map of what the coastline looked like at that time, when the sea level was 420ft lower than today.

Notice that this guy says the oceans were reduced in depth by 420 feet during the Ice Age.

13 posted on 10/26/2003 6:26:25 PM PST by blam
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To: sarcasm; *Gods, Graves, Glyphs; Alas Babylon!; annyokie; bd476; BiffWondercat; Bilbo Baggins; ...
Gods, Graves, Glyphs
List for articles regarding early civilizations , life of all forms, - dinosaurs - etc.

Let me know if you wish to be added or removed from this ping list.

For real time political chat - Radio Free Republic chat room
And you won't miss a thread on FR because e-bot will keep you informed.

14 posted on 10/26/2003 6:27:46 PM PST by farmfriend ( Isaiah 55:10,11)
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To: JoeSchem
The Search For Atlantis 'Ends At Ayia Napa' (Cyprus)
15 posted on 10/26/2003 6:30:12 PM PST by blam
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To: JoeSchem
"Thus, Atlantis was not in the Atlantic, it was ten times closer, on the island of Crete. The dimensions of Atlantis are those of Crete, reduced by a factor of ten. The heyday of Minoan civilization was 900 years before Plato -- a factor of ten less than the 9000 years that Atlantean civilization was supposed to have existed."

I prefer not to change the legend to fit my ideas. I find it more rewarding to 'work' my ideas around the original legend.

* Generally I have found that the more distant in the past, the less we know about things. This works for Atlantis...all we know is something handed down from an Egyptian priest in 360BC.

* 9,000 years ago was the end of the last Ice Age, enormous changes were occurring with the shifting of the weigh of the melting ice. There would be great earthquakes, volcanos and floods. A good time for a civilization and large areas of land to disappear.

16 posted on 10/26/2003 6:50:10 PM PST by blam
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To: SandfleaCSC
Here is a link to the latest update on the underwater site off the coast of Cuba.
17 posted on 10/26/2003 6:57:59 PM PST by blam
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To: JoeSchem
Agreed. It appears to me someone is fishing for Nat Geo or Discovery contract.
18 posted on 10/26/2003 7:01:57 PM PST by Bob J
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To: blam
all we know is something handed down from an Egyptian priest in 360BC.

Plato wrote around 450BC and Solon Lived around 1500BC.

19 posted on 10/26/2003 7:04:00 PM PST by Bob J
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To: Bob J
bump for later
20 posted on 10/26/2003 7:11:08 PM PST by Harmless Teddy Bear (Maybe I should cut back on the coffee...)
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To: farmfriend
FF, thanks for promoting the chat room!
21 posted on 10/26/2003 7:13:01 PM PST by Bob J
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To: Bob J
Correct that...Solon was around 600BC.
22 posted on 10/26/2003 7:26:57 PM PST by Bob J
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To: Bob J
"Plato wrote around 450BC and Solon Lived around 1500BC.

This article states that Solon lived 500-600BCE

Solon, Poet and Lawgiver

23 posted on 10/26/2003 7:33:52 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
Good find on that link blam. The work there is interesting as heck, but IMHO what they have found there is a geological phenonemon at best.
24 posted on 10/26/2003 7:40:31 PM PST by SandfleaCSC
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To: SandfleaCSC
"The work there is interesting as heck, but IMHO what they have found there is a geological phenonemon at best."

Geologist/geophysist Dr Robert Schoch in his recent book, Voyages Of The Pyramid Builders, says that from all that he has seen, he thinks it is well as the 'pyramids' off the coast of Japan.

25 posted on 10/26/2003 7:45:19 PM PST by blam
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To: sarcasm
Neat book on this stuff
26 posted on 10/26/2003 9:53:57 PM PST by JmyBryan
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To: sarcasm
The Atlantis between Spain and Morocco. Revealing discoveries.

Expedition: "The Ibero-Marroqui Atlantis"

By Maria Fdez-Valmayor

A Scientific Expedition has started off at the end of this summer for the area of the Straits of Gibraltar in search of possible ruins of the well-known civilization like Atlantis by Plato. According to the project? Atlantis Ibero-Moroccan, between the coasts of southwest of the Iberian Peninsula and the northwest of Africa evidences of cities or submerged coastal villages of the Age of the Bronze would have to be, that could belong to the Island or Peninsula of Atlantis. The expedition is directed by specialist the investigating outstanding and in languages and writings of the antiquity, Georgeos Diaz-Montexano, President Founded Emeritus of the rising "Society the International for the Origins of the Civilizations" (S.I.O.C.), and creator of the Proto-genesis project. Between his objectives it is the confirmation of revealers and enigmatic data found in several texts of the antiquity.

The old authors and the Atlantis.

The investigator and escriptólogo Georgeos Diaz - Montexano has made very revealing discoveries that they allow to guarantee his thesis on the possible existence of an historical substrate in the story of Plato on the Island or Atlantis Peninsula or Atlantis, the one that would be according to Georgeos Diaz, in some point between the Straits of Gibraltar, the Gulf of Cádiz, the coasts of Morocco, and the Madeira Islands, like possible more remote point. In their indefatigable intellectual effort definitively to decipher the enigma of the Atlantic civilization that Plato she denominated with that same name, Diaz-Montexano has been able to find several references of other authors classic, previous to Plato, who give to faith of the existence of an island or peninsula that, like the Atlantis Island, was located just in front of the Straits of Gibraltar between Gadira or Gades, the present Cádiz, and the coasts of Morocco.

These references contribute many revealing data that confirm the geographic data contributed by Plato when it described emporium Atlantean, its main island or the Acropolis and the location of this in front of the " Columns of Hercules " (Gibraltar) between Gadira (Cádiz) and the Atlas (Morocco). These references were made by other authors of the antiquity previous to the Athenian philosopher, and to whom a considerable reliability in its descriptions is granted to them as they are Eutímenes de Massalia (500 B.C.), Anacreonte (570 B.C. - beginnings of the V B.C.), Hecateo de Mileto (560-480 B.C.), Ferécides (456 B.C.), Píndaro (518-438 to C.), Eurípides (485-306 to C.), Heródoto (484-430/424 to C.), Isócrates (436/5-338 B.C.), Euctemon (436/424 to C.) and Damastes de Sigeon (V to C.). These authors mention to other islands also located in the surroundings of Gibraltar and in the borders of the Atlantic coasts of Iberia and Morocco, these islands are Aliba, Etheria, Scheria, Erythea, Gadeira, Sarpedonia, Ogigia and Tartessós, and is very possible that many of them are different forms to denominate to the same island or peninsula that Plato it named like Atlantic island or of Atlantis.

The translations of texts of the mentioned authors are guaranteed by the solid knowledge of the prestigious philologer Elvira Gangutia Elícegui, Professor of Investigation of the Department of Greco-Latin Philology of the Institute of Philology of the CSIC and co-author of the lexical Dictionary Greek-Spanish.

Georgeos Diaz it was noticed, it does or more than seven years, that all the translations of the dialogues of Plato of the Timaios and the Kritias were too liberal, adapted or interpretative. In most of the grammar translations of the diverse European and American classic schools of philology, than being translated more to Plato, it was interpreted to him, and this brought like consequence the edition of serious errors of interpretation that motivated, on the one hand, that the story of Plato seemed more incredible or mythical, whereas on the other hand, these same imprecision’s served as stimulus many fantasises and speculating writers, more interested in writing books of successes or basing esoteric ideologies that in looking for the truth.

If the first modern translators of Latin and Greek texts of Plato had worried to translate the texts adjusting the possible maximum to the own written words, to their true meaning etymologises and contextual, he is to say to translate metafrásticamente and not to interpret on which he assumes that he meant Plato, because probably never so many fantasies would have been written and speculations on the Atlantis neither would have been tried to look for their rest by almost all the Earth corners, until in the absurd and remote points the more of “Columns of Hercules” or Straits of Gibraltar .

Between these errors of interpretation one is - in most of the translations that Atlantis was an enormous continent located beyond the Columns of Hercules in means of the Atlantic Ocean. The Atlantis was not a continent but an island, was not "beyond" of the Columns of Hercules but ahead, together or near the own Columns, and one was not in means of the Ocean but in a sea, Straits or arm of sea that own the Plato it denominates with the name of Straits of the Columns of Hercules. The word the Ocean not even exists in the narration of the Atlantic-Gadi'rica civilization of Plato. And as far as the size of the island or peninsula Atlantis, Plato always talks about to the same one like a Nêsos that in Greek was used the same to denominate to the islands that to peninsulas, like for example the Peloponesos, that is a Greek peninsula.

Plato he does not say either that Atlantis were greater than Libya and Asia but that this was the greater island of Libya and the Asia, which is translated because the Atlantis island was the greater one, greatest, compared with the islands of Libya (the North territory and the northwest of Africa, from Morocco to Egypt) and with the islands of Asia (smaller Asia). Atlantis or Atlantis were because an island not a continent, and the dimensions that offer Plato of their plain, 3000 stages of East-West length by 2000 stages of latitude the north-south, are the same ones that offer other classic authors for the extension of the kingdom of Tartessós or the Turdetania.

These measures, according to Plato, were those of the plain where was the Acropolis; a plain that watched at the southern part (the plain of the Bética?), whereas Brown Mountain range was protected of northern winds by a mountain arc (?). Theses this of chronics real of Spain, Jose Pellicer y Osau (S. XVII) and historian Spanish Francisco Fernandez and González, (XIX-XX Centuries), who went ahead to famous German investigator Adolf Schülten in the identification of the kingdom of Tartessós with the Atlantis of Plato, although lamentably, nowadays do not recognize such merits to them. After this region or it lines up main of king Atlas extended other nine regions of diverse dimensions, being main and the greatest one, the one of the great plain where one was the sacred Acropolis and the temple dedicated to the God Poseidôn and its Kleitos woman. This Acropolis was surrounded by five ring or concentric pits, alternated from the centre of the Acropolis in three of land and two of water of sea.

A geologic enigma: hypothesis.

In the metafrásticas or literal translations of texts of Plato, who Georgeos Diaz - Montexano comes made from 1994, are clear references on the existence of one rooted tradition on an island, peninsula or extremera earth forehead to Gibraltar and the Atlantic coasts of the Iberian Peninsula and noroccidental Africa. But most surprising it is the discovery of repeated descriptions of the area of the Straits of Gibraltar or " Columns of Hercules ", whose characteristics raise a great enigma for marine geology and the paleogeography. According to these old and controversial descriptions previous to Plato or the Straits of Gibraltar, in classic times, previous to the arrival of the Romans, was much more narrow - as soon as a pair of kilometers of distance between the coasts of both continents or these descriptions is sustained in ancient copies of traditions that would overcome before to several thousands of years.

The differences that exist between the true range that separates the Straits of Gibraltar and the measures offered by some of the mentioned authors are so great that very hardly it could explain like simple computational errors or defects of measurement, mainly when are several the authors that agree in this great narrowness or narrowness of the step that existed between the " Columns of Hercules " or " Straits of Gibraltar ", authors who when describing other geographic measures of Iberia and Libya (Morocco) do not commit errors as serious as this, which makes those measures so more likely narrows that they offer of the Straits of Gibraltar .

These authors affirm that the existing Gibraltar or separation distance in the Heracleo Straits was of as soon as about two or three kilometers, according to the source. Nevertheless, according to the more recent geologic data, it is practically impossible that at historical times - not even at prehistoric times the channel of the " Straits of Gibraltar " has had so little separation distance. From a geomorphological and paleogeográfico point of view the human being not even would exist when the " Columns of Hercules " or " Straits of Gibraltar " presented/displayed a so single separation of a few kilometers between the coasts of Iberia and Africa. The consulted geologists affirm that this last one is impossible, unless the theories on the separation of both continents and the formation of the " Straits of Gibraltar " are mistaken.

But, really the old authors would be mistaken who affirm that the separation distance in the Straits of Gibraltar was so single of two or three kilometers. Recent paleogeographics and hydrographics studies demonstrate that the submerged deltas of the Mediterranean Sea presented/displayed a stable level to a depth of about -95 ms, whereas the deltas of the Atlantic Ocean show that the level of the sea was variable between -30 and -130 m of depth. According to Paulino Zamarro (2001)? The tow affirmations are clearly incompatible, unless the existence of a physical separation between the Atlantic Ocean and the Mediterranean Sea is admitted. Georgeos Diaz thinks that that physical separation could be explained through the references of the old authors when they affirmed that the Straits of Gibraltar was very narrow. The more recent scientific studies could then still confirm the descriptions of the old authors on the extreme narrowness of the Heracleo Straits or Gibraltar, existing at the end of the Age of the Bronze, according to is deduced of such sources.

Everything seems to indicate that a bridge or natural isthmus existed that would unite the Iberian Peninsula and Morocco by the Straits between "Punta de Trafalgar" and "Cabo Spartel". Just in the center the Majuan Island has been being nowadays to -50 meters of depth, identified by Georgeos Díaz, for already several years, like the possible island-Acropolis of Atlantis and more recently by the French geologist Jacques Collina Girard, who has red-baptize it like Spartel Island; nevertheless, this island is small, the enough thing like not to have allowed to tend a natural bridge between both continental margins. The scientific thesis developed by a Spanish investigator, Paulino Zamarro, defends that that natural bridge or isthmus existed which would be broken for about 7,500 years. Date considered by the change of salinity of the Black Sea. With the rupture of the isthmus flooded the Mediterranean Sea later and the Black Sea that, as of that moment, stopped being a fresh water lake to become a salt water sea, it affirms Zamarro.

The problem arises when Zamarro dates its rupture in about 7,500 years before the present (A.P.) and it locates to the Atlantis in means in the Aegean Sea, which would not fit with the descriptions of Plato of a civilization with a development similar to the cities or emporiums of the Age of the Bronze, and that had its seat in the Atlantic coasts, in front of the Columns of Hercules (Gibraltar) between Gadira and the Atlas.

In the 6,000 a. C., according to the archaeological registries, did not exist still any Earth civilization with developed writing, which would have been more than necessary so that the memory of the catastrophe of Atlantis and the events lived by its survivors could be transmitter. According to the present scientific studies, the man did not discover the principles of the writing until at least 2,500 years after the supposed collapse of the isthmus, that according to Zamarro existed in the Straits of Gibraltar 7,500 years ago. In a time interval like that, certainly the memory of the Atlantis could have disappeared completely, although not necessarily it had so that to be thus.

Paulino Zamarro create possible that by transmitter the oral route the history of the collapse of Atlantis until the man discovered the writing and decided to conserve it in documents written. During that time, history could enough have deformed, which would be logical, and later, when going to documents written they would be added certain mythical-literary elements on a par that would eliminate other more objective data. The final result could so have been the history of Atlantis and as we know it, thanks to Plato.

The analysis of the elements and existing data in the dialogues of the Kritias and the Timaios de Plato, where the history of the Atlantic Civilization is narrated, allows to discover a culture us that begins at the end of the paleolithic or in the dawn of the Neolithic one. Same the Plato says to us that when arose the Atlantic Civilization - that its cradle in the Atlantic coasts had, in front of Gibraltar - the men still did not know the art navigation, and the date who offers is of 9,000 years, that supposing are before the visit of Solón to Sáis in Egypt, that went around the 550 a. C., because Plato would be locating us the origins of this Atlantic Civilization or the Atlantis in about 11,500 years. The discovered oldest boat until the present, apparently has between 6,000 and 7,000 years of antiquity. Although one thinks that the man would have discovered navigation long before, do not exist scientific tests that 11,500 years ago already the art was known navigation - at least in the Mediterranean and the Atlantic - so and as affirms Plato.

The Atlantic Civilization could have arisen does about 11,500 years, according to Plato, and to have gradually evolved until several successive seisms and a cataclysm or tsunami, as it points Plato, would be able to break the isthmus or island-peninsula where it would be the Acropolis and emporium main of the Atlántides. This fact could take place does 7,500 years as it affirms Paulino Zamarro, but also is very possible that it has happened much later, in the heat of Age of the Bronze as Georgeos thinks Diaz, according to is come off the evidences that are finding under waters of the Straits of Gibraltar the equipment of the expedition that it directs; evidences that are being documented by a producer for National Geographic.

The Atlantis Island: An isthmus in Gibraltar?

Georgeos Diaz it defends the hypothesis that the data offered by diverse authors of the classic antiquity, and the own myth on the separation of the continents and the positioning of the two Columns that separated the Straits on the part of the famous hero and Phoenician-Greek God Herakles or Hercules, they demonstrate that the human beings were witnesses of this geologic event, without a doubt, catastrophic that more likely had to happen in a date relatively next in the time that the considered one by Zamarro . And most of the geologists and oceanographers. The argumentations, hypothesis and archaeological discoveries of Georgeos Diaz and the equipment of the "Civilizations Origins Scientific Society", they could support the hypothesis of Paulino Zamarro on the existence of an isthmus or island-bridge in the Straits of Gibraltar in protohistorics or even historical times. The rupture of the isthmus had to happen of immediate and catastrophic way, causing the disappearance of all the islands and coastal regions of both seas and both continents, from the area immediate to the " Straits of Gibraltar " to the Mediterranean Sea. Between missing earth it would be the own island-Acropolis or peninsula denominated like Atlantis or Atlantic by Plato, the one that would be, according to Zamarro in means of the Aegean Sea and according to Diaz-Montexano in the same isthmus or closely together.

The philological studies and the literal or metafrásticas translations (beyond the phrase or prose) that has made Georgeos Diaz - when working with the texts written in Greek and Latin that speak on the Atlantic island or Atlantis - have thrown revealing and quite precise data that, for the first time, they could find support in the geologic and bathymetrics studies of Zamarro and other investigators, and vice versa. Georgeos Diaz has verified - through the Latin translation commented of the Timaios de Plato made by the neoplatonic Chalcidio (S. IV) - that Plato or spoke of the existence of that bridge or isthmus. According to the metafrástica or literal translation that makes Georgeos Diaz of the edition of PLATONIS TIMAEUS of Chalcidio interpreter, the Atlantis island was the same isthmus that according to Zamarro existed in the Straits of Gibraltar in the Neolithic one. Chalcidio translates the Greek text of Plato (Timaios 2ê) where is located the position of the Atlantis island of the following way:


"... Then that one Close era, I think, stepable when having in the mouth or lobby of the gulf an island ( Atlantis ), that is the mouth of the Column that you adjudges to Hercules ..." ( metaphrastical Translation : Georgeos Diaz , 1994 )

What interpreted or adapted, according to the general context of the dialogues of the Timaios and the Kritias, it would be:

"... Then that Straits , I think, they were possible to be happened because it had an Island ( Atlantis ) in the Mouth or Lobby of the Gulf , that is the Mouth of the Columns that you adjudge to Hercules ..." (phrastical Translation: Georgeos Diaz, 1994 )

In the Greek text of the Timaios , Chalcidio had to read the following thing:


"... Then yes that sea could be crossed : an island, in effect, in front of the mouth to which you call, and you present, the Wakes of Heracles. ... " (metaphrastical Translation: Georgeos Diaz, 1994)

In both texts it is clear perfectly that, at the time of the Atlantic kingdom , before his collapse, it was possible "to journey" or "to cross. the Straits , since as much the Latin COMMEABILE, “stepable” , “can be happened” , “that is easily stepable” , like the Greek POREUSIMON, they were used in the same sense what he is “stepable” or “passable”, fundamentally on foot ; of a way that is “possible to happen” . The translation made by Chalcidio was a correct translation, almost exact and faithful to the true sense of the Greek words, it could say that she was almost metafrástica ; nevertheless, this clear mention to an island that was in the same mouth or entrance of the Straits like an isthmus that would allow to pass or to journey the Straits had to be strange to him to the own Marsilio Ficino, the first Latin translator of Complete Works of Plato already , because in his PLATONIS IT OPERATES OMMIA (century XV) decided to change word COMMEABILE, “stepable” , used correctly by Chalcidio , NAVIGABILES that is, "navigable" . Ficino had to think that it was an error of Plato , and Chalcidio , reason why it dared to make this amendment. The inheritance of Ficino has noticed in many of the grammar or adapted translations to modern languages, where has been decided on "navigable" instead of “possible to happen”, although it is well certain that the best European translations have respected, in this case, the original sense of voices POREUSIMON and COMMEABILE, that is to say, "passable" or “possible to happen”.

In the Greek text one affirms that what was “stepable” it was the PELAGOS, that is to say “pelagous”, that all the modern translators translate like “Sea” or “Ocean”, whereas Chalcidio and Ficino translate voice PELAGOS by the Latin FRETUM, that was used to denominate to “Close s” or "Arm of Sea" that they communicate to other two greater seas, as were the case of the Straits of Hercules ( Gibraltar ) who communicated the Atlantic with the Mediterranean . If Chalcidio translated PELAGOS by FRETUM it is because it must have information of first hand that the PELAGOS of Plato was the own FRETUM, arm of sea or Straits of Hercules . As he exposes Georgeos well Diaz ": We must consider that Chalcidio translated to Plato in the century IV and that must have access to original texts of the Greek teacher, since it was neon Plato ICO and it studied in the Academy founded by own the Plato . Therefore, Chalcidio is a good source in which to sustain to a philological and interpretative study of the Timaios de Plato and in this case of the island Atlantis . Also it is very probable that in the times of Chalcidio the Greek concept of PELAGOS shared meaning with the one of the Latin FRETUM, in the sense of "arm of sea" or "narrow Sea", but rather like "divided Sea or started off"(by the Phoenician root PLG "divided") or like "difficult Sea or dangerous", like that Close s ran between them and in front of the same one by the Atlantic part , according to proposes Georgeos Diaz.

Be that as it may, if PELAGOS had only meant "high Sea" or to "open Sea" , then how we could explain that as much Chalcidio as Ficino could commit the "error" so serious to translate a word that meant "Sea high? by other than she was used to denominate to “Closes” or "Arm of sea" . The answer, according to Diaz-Montexano , we could find it in other two meanings of word PELAGOS accepted by the expert lexicographers: "channel" and “land level flooded” ; from PELAGOS it also derives PELAGOÔ, "Flood"(George Liddell, Robert Scott, Henry Stuart Jones, and Roderick McKenzie). More likely this era the original sense of Greek voice PELAGOS, since she appears associate almost always to seas of low bottoms with islands , stumbling blocks and archipelagos. In the ladino, dialect Jew-Spanish who was spoken in the Iberian Peninsula in the Average Age, sea meant "Dam", and still nowadays the fishermen of Chipiona , Cadiz , call seas to the small islands that form in the low bottoms of the fishing corrals. Therefore, when Chalcidio and Ficino translated PELAGOS by FRETUM would have in mind, more likely, the idea that Plato was talking about "Arm of sea" or ? Straits ? of the Columns of Hercules or Gibraltar , who is like one "channel" or great "channel of sea", although same the Plato - in the Greek text it affirms that the PELAGOS was the own NÊSOS when it says: ... Then yes that sea could be crossed : an island, in effect, ...

Therefore, if PELAGOS or FRETUM, "arm or sewer of sea" of the Straits of Gibraltar "it could go" , it is because then there was an isthmus that allowed it, and that isthmus is same that Plato calls NÊSOS, and the Latin INSULA, “island”, what it is ratified in another meaning of the voice NÊSOS, “land flooded”. A NÊSOS could be because one "island", one “peninsula” , one “land flooded” or “land alluvial? , whereas a PELAGOS we have seen that also one could be "land level flooded", which also confirms when specifying Plato who, it was ?en effect? a NÊSOS. With all these meanings, closely related between if, semantically, the Latin translations of Chalcidio and Ficino are explained . On the matter, it summarizes Diaz-Montexano : ?la Atlantis Island that Plato locates before the mouth of the Straits of Gibraltar would be really an average isthmus with flooded zones of salt marshes or earth, but that would still allow - in the previous times to its collapse the one that could be passed or be crossed the Straits . Subsequent to the collapse of the island or isthmus of Atlantis - in the Age of the Bronze a Narrow channel of only two or three kilometers in width would exist like redoubt of the catastrophe that could be observed by the first Phoenician navigators, who would know the facts relative to the Atlantic Island by own mouth tartésicos or turdetanos.

The data collected by Georgeos are many the last Diaz in these fifteen years dedicated to the investigation of texts of Plato and the ibero-African authors of the antiquity who wrote on the ibero-líbicas Atlantic Civilizations or that Plato groups under the Atlantic name of Atlántides or . Data that have forced to defend the hypothesis to him of the existence of real an historical substrate in the story of Plato on the island or Atlantic peninsula or of the Atlantis .

The scientific expedition

At the end of the last month of August, Georgeos Diaz-Montexano began the direction of a scientific expedition whose objective is the exploration of the area of the Straits of Gibraltar , Moroccan Cadiz and coasts with the intention to detect possible architectonic rest or submerged artificial structures and to be able to document them and to film them. These possible ruins under the sea could scientifically demonstrate the veracity of the descriptions made by the authors of the antiquity and if there is luck, maybe the same existence of the island-Acropolis of Atlantis or also very looked for city of Tartessós . For it is counted on a team of scientists, Spanish specialists and divers that are submerging until a depth of?30 meters, with the only objective to obtain images and shootings to later put them to disposition of the national commission of historical-archaeological patrimony and UNESCO. The filmic support is being guaranteed by a prestigious North American producer that is accompanying to the expedition due to the interest of the prestigious world-wide institution, "National Geographic" , to document the project of " Atlantis between Iberia and Africa" or Proto-genesis that Diaz-Montexano directs to Georgeos .

Between the members of the expedition are specialists and scientists like Juan Naval Luis (historian and official cronist), Gem Tirado and Maria Fdez-Valmayor (Investigation and documentation), Antonio Font (engineering and architecture), Raul Menasalvas (subaqueous archaeology), Antonio Daza and Esteban Wheat Márquez (geology and geominería); as well as the following explorers and subaqueous investigators: Beatriz Lumbreras , Marsal Grifa , Manuel Santana, Miguel Aragón , Naval Filomeno , and Antonio Lucas Of the Moral .

To date three key deposits for these investigations since clear artificial structures or architectonic elements, semicircular walls, paving stones or blocks , constructions , wheels of mill , pillars , slabs or sillares are , channels and pools or chimneys have been located at least . All these evidences are being discovered between?10 and?30 meters of depth and to several distances of the coasts from the area of the Straits of Gibraltar to Huelva, just in the same area where Georgeos Diaz came foretelling, for years, that would be rest of the Atlantic civilization that Plato it denominated like Atlantis .

According to more recent the oceanographic and paleogeográficos studies scientific, these evidences would have to date themselves in several thousands from years before the arrival from the Romans to the Iberian Peninsula. Nevertheless, conventional archaeology does not admit the possibility of the existence of a proto-civilization so developed and organized as the one that is appearing with an antiquity that, according to the paleogeográficos and bathymetrics data, could go back to more than 3,000 or 4,000 years before the arrival of the Greek Phoenicians and to the Atlantic coasts . Or the data of the oceanographers and palaeographers are incorrect or archaeology will be forced to rectify the established conventional chronology for the origins of the civilizations. Georgeos Diaz , thinks that the solution could be in a midpoint. The found evidences would be, certainly, older than the considered thing by archaeology, but more recent than what it is inferred of the paleogeográficos data. Therefore, it is very probable that both branches of science must rectify and fit to their chronologies and datings.

Everything interested in participating in the expedition, as much physically as in quality of partner or patron must be put in contact with Maria Fdez-Valmayor ( ), Coordinator of

In order to know +

1. The details of the theory and the expedition:

2. The most famous theories and their comparison with texts of Plato:

3. Video-Web: Presentation in video of the theories on the Atlantis of Plato:

4. Hypothesis: * Atlas = * Antalas = * Andalas = Andalus: The origin of the name of Andalusia. Revealing hypothesis on the origin of the name of Andalusia:

5. The Atlantis, Tartessós and t the Sea Peoples:

Scientific society for the Origins of the Civilizations.

The Atlantis between Spain and Morocco

Revealing discoveries
27 posted on 10/30/2003 11:06:10 AM PST by Maria Fdez-Valmayor
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Not a ping, just a GGG update.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on, off, or alter the "Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list --
Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
The GGG Digest
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28 posted on 04/01/2005 11:49:29 AM PST by SunkenCiv (last updated my FreeRepublic profile on Friday, March 25, 2005.)
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To: 75thOVI; agrace; aimhigh; Alice in Wonderland; AndrewC; aragorn; aristotleman; Avoiding_Sulla; ...
Note: this topic is a blast from the past. Thanks sarcasm.

29 posted on 08/12/2012 8:57:47 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (
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 GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother & Ernest_at_the_Beach
Just updating the GGG info, not sending a general distribution.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.

30 posted on 08/12/2012 9:00:05 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (
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To: sarcasm
"Plato also reports that volcanic activity sank Atlantis, when the strait is not in a volcanic area."

I thought Plato said it was "beyond" the Pillars of Hercules - which could be anywhere in the Atlantic. The Azores and Canary Islands are certainly volcanic.

31 posted on 08/12/2012 9:31:29 AM PDT by Flag_This (Real presidents don't bow.)
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