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Finland way ahead of U.S. in many ways
Honolulu Star Bulletin ^ | 12/12/03 | Nancy Bey Little

Posted on 12/12/2003 10:15:41 AM PST by GrandmaPatriot

The article about Finland in your Dec. 7 Travel section was interesting. We like to think that we are the most advanced country in the world, but that seems to apply only to weapons, and many others (even in "Old Europe") are far ahead of us. Helsinki, a small capital city of 500,000, has an underground metro and light-rail trams. Finland has the most successful economy in the world and provides its citizens with many social benefits: education through graduate school, generous child-care leave, $100-per-month child payments until age 16 and health care. Our radical right-wing would sniff "socialism," but they are way ahead of us. And they are not squandering billions of dollars and human lives by invading other nations.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Government; US: Hawaii
KEYWORDS: aino; finland; toivo
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This is the type of thinking that is prevelant in Hawaii? Notice not one mention about the tax rate in Finland.
1 posted on 12/12/2003 10:15:42 AM PST by GrandmaPatriot
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To: GrandmaPatriot
This is in the letters to the editor section of the link.
2 posted on 12/12/2003 10:16:18 AM PST by GrandmaPatriot
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To: GrandmaPatriot
One, I question some of the letter writers assertions. Two,
if Finland is so perfect, the writer can emigrate.
3 posted on 12/12/2003 10:18:45 AM PST by JeeperFreeper
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To: GrandmaPatriot
Two questions. How many people emigrate from the U.S. to Finland each year? And how many people migrate from Finland to the U.S. each year? For answers, you might want to talk to Linus Torvalds of Linux fame.
4 posted on 12/12/2003 10:19:12 AM PST by vbmoneyspender
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To: GrandmaPatriot
In Finland they start a lot of things, but never Finnish! Income tax rate is like 60%. They haven't been attacked by terrrorist either, yet.
5 posted on 12/12/2003 10:19:25 AM PST by Conspiracy Guy (If you don't have hope, you don't have squat. The hopeless have already lost.)
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To: GrandmaPatriot
Plywood. Not logs, but an actual product.
6 posted on 12/12/2003 10:19:47 AM PST by RightWhale (Close your tag lines)
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To: All
"You're so sadly neglected,
And often ignored,
A poor second to Belgium,
When going abroad."

7 posted on 12/12/2003 10:19:49 AM PST by dighton
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To: GrandmaPatriot
No mention either of the suicide rate in Finland, which is the highest in the world most years.
8 posted on 12/12/2003 10:20:03 AM PST by Tax-chick (It's hard to see the rainbow through glasses dark as these.)
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To: GrandmaPatriot
"Notice not one mention about the tax rate in Finland."

60-62%

9 posted on 12/12/2003 10:20:19 AM PST by international american
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To: GrandmaPatriot
Isn't Finland great? Maybe more "concerned citizens" should move there, especially those in Hawaii who are never satisfied with what they have. Please, please, move to wonderful Finland.
10 posted on 12/12/2003 10:20:23 AM PST by caisson71
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To: GrandmaPatriot
Yea, right. When I think of economic giants and world powers, Finland is right up there.
11 posted on 12/12/2003 10:20:32 AM PST by Blood of Tyrants (Even if the government took all your earnings, you wouldn’t be, in its eyes, a slave.)
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To: GrandmaPatriot
Heck, if we didn't have to provide for national defense (who in the hell wants to invade Finland anyway and it is too cold for the towel heads) then $400 billion could be used to provide a perfect society.....

Now back to reality.....
12 posted on 12/12/2003 10:21:11 AM PST by misterrob
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To: GrandmaPatriot
Finnish American here. They tax the living crap out of you in Finland.
13 posted on 12/12/2003 10:22:07 AM PST by finnman69 (cum puella incedit minore medio corpore sub quo manifestus globus, inflammare animos)
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To: Conspiracy Guy
Actually they did have a bombing at a mall outside of Helsinki that reeked of Islamists. Finland has a huge..get this...Somali population now.
14 posted on 12/12/2003 10:23:13 AM PST by finnman69 (cum puella incedit minore medio corpore sub quo manifestus globus, inflammare animos)
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To: international american
When you count state and local fees and sales taxes, not to mention the IRS...most in the USA pay close to 50% in taxes...
15 posted on 12/12/2003 10:23:31 AM PST by AnalogReigns
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To: GrandmaPatriot
Finland also is way ahead of us in reindeer.
16 posted on 12/12/2003 10:24:04 AM PST by Kenton (This space for rent)
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To: misterrob
Finland at least bought 48 F-18's a few years ago.
17 posted on 12/12/2003 10:24:21 AM PST by finnman69 (cum puella incedit minore medio corpore sub quo manifestus globus, inflammare animos)
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To: GrandmaPatriot
The writer is a dope.

It took me 30 seconds on Google to find out that Finland is facing the same sort of population crisis the rest of Western Europe are. Declining populations leading to financial crisis -

"Nonetheless, serious problems remain. If not tackled promptly, these problems could undermine the prospects for robust longer-run economic growth and hinder Finland's adjustment to the impending demographic shock facing all of Europe: an insufficient number of workers to support a growing population of pensioners. In particular,

(1) outside the high tech sector productivity growth is rather low - labor productivity increased at an average annual rate of only 1.3 percent over the past three years; and

(2) a high rate of structural unemployment and a low average retirement age limit the effective labor supply. In the traditional sectors much of the economic growth of recent years has been based on the re-absorption of the large pool of cyclical unemployment. As this process will soon come to an end, the growth potential of the economy could be sharply curtailed. These problems are not unrelated to the high tax burden and to persistent rigidities in the product and labor markets."

http://www.imf.org/external/np/ms/2000/061200.htm
18 posted on 12/12/2003 10:24:31 AM PST by Weimdog
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To: finnman69
Sorry to hear that. The slim is everywhere I guess.
19 posted on 12/12/2003 10:24:36 AM PST by Conspiracy Guy (If you don't have hope, you don't have squat. The hopeless have already lost.)
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To: GrandmaPatriot
State income tax
The state income tax can be either progressive or proportional. If the tax is determined in accordance with the progressive income tax scale, this means that an increase an income causes a proportionately greater increase in tax. Earned income (such as wages or pension and fringe benefits) is taxed in accordance with a progressive tax scale.

Proportional apportionment tax means that a flat tax rate will be applied throughout, irrespective of the amount of the income. In 2003 the tax rate on capital income (for example, rental income, capital gains, dividends from listed companies, etc.) of individuals, limited liability companies and cooperatives was 29 per cent. Approximately 50 per cent of the corporate income tax (tax rate 29%) is accounted to the State.

State wealth tax
In 2003 the minimum amount of assets subject to wealth tax is EUR 185,000. The rate of tax is EUR 80 for this amount and 0.9% for the amount exceeding EUR 185,000. The wealth tax of sole proprietors is reduced in that only 30% of the business assets are regarded as taxable assets.

Municipal and Church tax
The municipal income tax is determined according to a proportional tax base. In 2003 the municipal income tax rates vary from 15.5 to 20 per cent.

The church tax is also a proportional apportionment tax. The church tax rates vary from 1 to 2.25 per cent. Church tax is only paid by the members of the Finnish Evangelic Lutheran and Orthodox Churches or the Olaus Petri congregation. Corporations (limited liability companies and cooperatives) always pay the church tax since part of the corporate income tax (tax rate 29%) is paid to the Evangelic Lutheran and Orthodox congregations.


The general VAT rate is 22% of the price, excluding tax or other tax base.








Excise duties



An excise taxation harmonized by directives is applied to alcohol and alcoholic beverages, manufactured tobacco and mineral oils (liquid fuels) in the Member States of the European Union.

Additional national excise duties are levied on soft drinks, electricity and certain fuels in Finland. Lubricating oils and preparations are subject to a tax having the nature of an excise duty, and a landfill tax is collected on waste delivered to landfills. The provisions on the taxation procedure are given in the Excise Taxation Act.

Excise duties are collected on products manufactured in Finland, as well as those imported into Finland




20 posted on 12/12/2003 10:25:05 AM PST by razorback-bert
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To: GrandmaPatriot
Finland, Finland, Finland,
The country where I want to be,
Pony trekking or camping,
Or just watching TV.
Finland, Finland, Finland.
It's the country for me.

You're so near to Russia,
So far from Japan,
Quite a long way from Cairo,
Lots of miles from Vietnam.

Finland, Finland, Finland,
The country where I want to be,
Eating breakfast or dinner,
Or snack lunch in the hall.
Finland, Finland, Finland.
Finland has it all.

You're so sadly neglected
And often ignored,
A poor second to Belgium,
When going abroad.

Finland, Finland, Finland,
The country where I quite want to be,
Your mountains so lofty,
Your treetops so tall.
Finland, Finland, Finland.
Finland has it all.

Finland, Finland, Finland,
The country where I quite want to be,
Your mountains so lofty,
Your treetops so tall.
Finland, Finland, Finland.
Finland has it all.

Finland has it all.

21 posted on 12/12/2003 10:26:09 AM PST by Dementon (I hear the voices in my head, I swear to God it sounds like they're snoring...)
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To: AnalogReigns
When you add that in in finland it goes from 60% to 75 or 80%. Life is relevent.
22 posted on 12/12/2003 10:26:34 AM PST by Conspiracy Guy (If you don't have hope, you don't have squat. The hopeless have already lost.)
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To: Tax-chick
No mention either of the suicide rate in Finland, which is the highest in the world most years.

I'd kill myself if I had to listen to Sibelius all the time, too.

23 posted on 12/12/2003 10:27:13 AM PST by Jim Cane
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To: international american
Finland tax rates

I don't see 60% on this site.

some quick searches told me the Average finnish income is like 34,000 Eur approximately 6 FIN/Eur comes to 204,000 FIN average income.

Income tax rate for 204,000 is 13% plus 22% VAT (less on some items) still only equals 35%.

Now I agree they are socialists and I don't envy them. I also have very limited skill with translating numbers into real life, hence I'm not an economics guru.

Please show me where 60% comes from.

24 posted on 12/12/2003 10:27:41 AM PST by Ispy4u
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To: finnman69
I guess it's like you work your 40 hour work week, they tax your earnings and you still owe them money.
25 posted on 12/12/2003 10:27:49 AM PST by chiefqc
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To: GrandmaPatriot
Finland's great if you like to get piss drunk on vodka, take off all your clothes, get scalded at 150 degrees, have a woman thrash you with branches, then jump into a lake at -21 degrees.
26 posted on 12/12/2003 10:27:49 AM PST by Semper Paratus
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To: GrandmaPatriot
Finland isn't "Perfect". For one thing, there aren't any Walgreens there!
27 posted on 12/12/2003 10:27:55 AM PST by HardStarboard (Dump Wesley Clark.....he worries me as much as Hillary!)
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To: GrandmaPatriot
I have a cousin who lives in Finland and teaches English to college students. He doesn't have much nice to stay about his students - he calls them dumb cows, and says that they lack in initiative, drive and creativity. He assessment is that since the government provides so many "services" for them, they don't need to have any drive or ambition. He was in the US recently for a visit, and he and his wife shopped like crazy to buy things that were unavailable there - things like large, fluffy towels! His descriptions of life there make me very happy I live here in the US.
28 posted on 12/12/2003 10:28:15 AM PST by .38sw
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To: Jim Cane
Maybe they're driven over the edge by the reindeer? Or their awful-looking language? Lonely Planet "did" Finland sometime back, when we still had cable. It's a pretty country, if cold is your thing ...
29 posted on 12/12/2003 10:29:09 AM PST by Tax-chick (It's hard to see the rainbow through glasses dark as these.)
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To: GrandmaPatriot
Also no mention of whether the people enjoy any personal freedom.
30 posted on 12/12/2003 10:29:36 AM PST by Spok
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To: GrandmaPatriot
Finland has an absolutely static population -- 5 million people and no more are expected to arrive, mostly because the winter months are unbearable for anymore but the most thoroughly acclimatized. It also has highly homogeneous population. They do live well in Finland but Finland is an irreproducable state, completely unique.

It is unfair to compare the Finland with a large, diverse, and, yes, multi-cultural, nation-state like the United States.

31 posted on 12/12/2003 10:30:02 AM PST by beckett
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To: GrandmaPatriot
Finland way ahead of U.S. in many ways

  Alphabetically, for instance...

Drew Garrett

32 posted on 12/12/2003 10:30:22 AM PST by agarrett
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To: GrandmaPatriot
This is the type of thinking that is prevelant in Hawaii? Notice not one mention about the tax rate in Finland.

Or about personal happiness, diversity, sense of meaning in life, statistics which show that this money is actually making a DIFFERENCE in quality and longevity of life, etc. etc.

33 posted on 12/12/2003 10:30:55 AM PST by MegaSilver
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To: Semper Paratus
That's it - that's all it takes and you've convinced me - I'm going to Finland!
34 posted on 12/12/2003 10:32:19 AM PST by Tredge
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To: Ispy4u
I got these numbers from an A&E interview with the Finnish Minister of Finance .They have many other taxes that are not reflected under the basic tax codes. It was he who stated this when queried by the interviewer.
35 posted on 12/12/2003 10:32:22 AM PST by international american
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To: GrandmaPatriot
It's impossible to get ahead of anybody when you're going down the wrong track.
36 posted on 12/12/2003 10:34:39 AM PST by Prince Caspian (Don't ask if it's risky... Ask if the reward is worth the risk)
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To: international american
I don't mean to imply you are wrong, I just wanted to learn about all the sneaky ways they raise the easily apparent tax from 35% to 60%+.

If we don't pay attention our lawmakers would do the same dirty little tricks to us, and once it's there we won't be able to get rid of it.

Is there anyone else that can find all the dirty little hidden taxes there?
37 posted on 12/12/2003 10:35:09 AM PST by Ispy4u
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To: Weimdog
"The writer is a dope."

Socialist Utopians usually are dopes.

38 posted on 12/12/2003 10:35:28 AM PST by Destructor
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To: Semper Paratus
Finland's great if you like to get piss drunk on vodka, take off all your clothes, get scalded at 150 degrees, have a woman thrash you with branches, then jump into a lake at -21 degrees.

Sounds ok except for the scalding and jumping in the cold lake part.

39 posted on 12/12/2003 10:35:54 AM PST by Kenton (This space for rent)
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To: JeeperFreeper
Bring warm clothes.
40 posted on 12/12/2003 10:36:49 AM PST by Eric in the Ozarks
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To: GrandmaPatriot
"...has an underground metro and light-rail trams..."

Yeah, because NO ONE CAN AFFORD TO DRIVE THERE! They can't afford the cost of the license or the vehicles since they all basically receive the same amount of income (we call it welfare here, and some who receive it are ashamed and try to get off, but in Finland it is considered a birthright). My sister recently moved over there to be with her son and granddaughter - I knew she wouldn't stay long! They can keep their socialist country, and leave mine alone!
41 posted on 12/12/2003 10:39:28 AM PST by tinacart ((I STILL hate hitlery!))
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To: Semper Paratus
Finland's great if you like to get piss drunk on vodka, take off all your clothes, get scalded at 150 degrees, have a woman thrash you with branches, then jump into a lake at -21 degrees.

That's what I did last New Year's Eve.

42 posted on 12/12/2003 10:39:40 AM PST by Kenton (This space for rent)
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To: GrandmaPatriot
An underground metro is certainly a waste for a city that small.

We offer free education through grad school. It's called "scholarships." If you can't get a scholarship, you wouldn't qualify for Finaland's "free" grad school education either. Taht the scholarships come from various sources with various principles only means we're more democratic than Finland, which has the government bestow your "right" to get an education based on their standards. And if you can't qualify for a scholarship here, but you're supercommitted and believe in yourself and the value of your grad degree, you can take out a loan, and give yourself a scholarship. In Sweden, you simply aren't allowed to get one (if they are like other similat European countries).

Forget about sniffing "socialism." It's this simple: can any society be that great if they have to pay people to make babies? I'm all for helping parents out, since they serve a necessary role, but that's not what Sweden is doing. THeir birth rate is so low that they have resorted to paying people to have babies.
43 posted on 12/12/2003 10:39:45 AM PST by dangus
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To: Conspiracy Guy
I just got back from a week in Finland 2 weeks ago. Man, the prices there are sky high - $7 for a pint of beer!!! And talk about dreary, it was dark at 3.30 pm. Great looking girls, though |:)
44 posted on 12/12/2003 10:40:08 AM PST by Colosis
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To: Eric in the Ozarks
Is any Finnish citizen enjoying 80 degree weather today without leaving their country?
45 posted on 12/12/2003 10:41:31 AM PST by dwilli
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To: Ispy4u
This is what I found from the Library of Economics and Liberty
Marginal Tax Rates
by Alan Reynolds
http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/MarginalTaxRates.html

The marginal tax rate is the rate on the last dollar of income earned. This is very different from the average tax rate, which is the total taxes paid as a percentage of total income earned. The seemingly arcane topic of marginal tax rates became the central theme of a revolution in economic policy that swept the globe in the eighties. By the end of the decade, more than fifty nations had significantly reduced their highest marginal tax rates (most of which are shown in table 1). Neither Karl Marx nor John Maynard Keynes had so much influence on so many countries in so little time.

TABLE 1



Maximum Marginal Tax Rates on Individual Income


1979 1990
Argentina 45 30
Australia 62 47
Austria 62 50
Belgium 76 55
Bolivia 48 10
Botswana 75 50
Brazil 55 25
Canada (Ontario) 58 47
Chile 60 50
Colombia 56 30
Denmark 73 68
Egypt 80 65
Finland 71 43
France 60 53
Germany (West)56 53
Greece 60 50
Guatemala 40 34
Hungary 60 50
India 60 50
Indonesia 50 35
Iran 90 75
Ireland 65 56
Israel 66 48
Italy 72 50
Jamaica 58 33
Japan 75 50
Korea (South) 89 50
Malaysia 60 45
Mauritius 50 35
Mexico 55 35
Netherlands 72 60
New Zealand 60 33
Norway 75 54
Pakistan 55 45
Philippines 70 35
Portugal 84 40
Puerto Rico 79 43
Singapore 55 33
Spain 66 56
Sweden 87 65
Thailand 60 55
Trinidad and Tobago 70 35
Turkey 75 50
United Kingdom 83 40
United States 70 33


46 posted on 12/12/2003 10:41:59 AM PST by HarleyD (Bilbo, "When Sting turns blue it signals a RAT is near.")
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To: GrandmaPatriot
"$100-per-month child payments until age 16"

Just what we need!
47 posted on 12/12/2003 10:42:53 AM PST by At _War_With_Liberals (It's more than a lib/con thing- All 3 branches of govt colluded to limit the 1st amendment)
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To: GrandmaPatriot
If their quality of life is better, their economy is better, their medical care is better, their schools are better, their child mortality rate is better, so what is the difference between 25% tax here or 75% tax there? The results are what counts. However, I might add, we have no homogenous society as these countries do. Our boarders are open, and floods of third world countries are invading our ranks legally, and illegally- diluting our values/ethics/health standards. Hence straight comparison is not fair. If you want to compare white Anglo American with Finland you may find that they could be better? The immigrants to this country eventually adapt, and most of the time becomes better than the natives. My point is the constant influx produces a constant underclass, which shifts our records lower in comparison with pure European nations.
48 posted on 12/12/2003 10:43:48 AM PST by philosofy123
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To: Ispy4u
Please show me where 60% comes from.

Probably referring to "marginal tax rate". Here's one source.

49 posted on 12/12/2003 10:44:41 AM PST by Moosilauke
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To: HarleyD
So ours is 33 and theirs is 43?

I think I'm reading that right.

I'm still looking for the 60% number. There has got to be duckbite type taxes adding that up. We have to know what they are if we want to oppose them.
50 posted on 12/12/2003 10:44:58 AM PST by Ispy4u
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