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Immigration and Security
The Wall Street Journal ^ | Wednesday, December 24, 2003

Posted on 12/24/2003 7:50:09 AM PST by presidio9

Edited on 04/22/2004 11:50:42 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge recently committed the political sin of telling the truth. His helpful candor has reopened a much-needed debate over immigration and exposed some of the specious arguments used by those who want to close U.S. borders.


(Excerpt) Read more at online.wsj.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Government; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: aliens; bordersecurity; dhs; homelandsecurity; immigrantlist; immigration; republicanturncoats; tomridge
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To: presidio9
The solution: Stop the handouts.

We have a Republican congress and a Republican president. Stop the handouts is a good idea. Do you think this will happen?

51 posted on 12/24/2003 10:24:34 AM PST by texastoo ((go California go. Tell it like it is))
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To: judicial meanz
"They evade paying taxes"

This shows just how generally misinformed most people are on this subject, or maybe just how disingenuous.

Even the Center for Immigration Studies acknowledges that illegal immigrants paid in in excess of $87 billion dollars in taxes over a ten year period of time.

52 posted on 12/24/2003 10:25:51 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Gift Is To See The Trout.)
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To: caltaxed
You can list the disease as a flood of people from a culture with a low regard for education. Most of our illegal immigrants have minimal education, and their children also do poorly in US schools.

As an Irish American, I laugh at this gross generalization.

53 posted on 12/24/2003 10:26:27 AM PST by presidio9 (Protectionists Treat The Symptoms And Ignore The Disease)
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To: presidio9
Effectively sealing off the border with Mexico would also be a huge drain on our economy. And for what purpose? Do they threaten us militarily?>>>>>>>


You seem pretty obsessed with 'the mexico border only', yourself......so WHY do you think mexico has a RIGHT to be the largest part of US immigration ???

You must have a BIG dog in this hunt....Where's the ROBUST economy of CA??, home to the largest segement of illegals (from mexico) ??
54 posted on 12/24/2003 10:27:04 AM PST by txdoda ("Navy-brat")
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To: judicial meanz
"They evade paying taxes"

Furthermore, it falls on the employer to collect, and submit those tax payments in, not for the individual to send in a check weekly.

55 posted on 12/24/2003 10:27:29 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Gift Is To See The Trout.)
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To: txdoda
You must have a BIG dog in this hunt....Where's the ROBUST economy of CA??, home to the largest segement of illegals (from mexico) ??

I have no interest. I live in NY and I am the whitest-looking guy you ever saw. I believe in competition, not congenital entitlement.

56 posted on 12/24/2003 10:29:16 AM PST by presidio9 (Protectionists Treat The Symptoms And Ignore The Disease)
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To: presidio9
Why don't you visit WWW. socialistinternational.org and see what socialists have to say about open borders and illegal immigrants? Funny thing, they seem to reflect your positions. Are you a trol from DU ? or socialist international? CPUSA, and Peoples weekly world, are communist sites and they agree with your views. How does that make you feel? I'd be ashamed.

Hummm
57 posted on 12/24/2003 10:31:10 AM PST by antisocial (Texas SCV)
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To: texastoo
We have a Republican congress and a Republican president. Stop the handouts is a good idea. Do you think this will happen?

The backlash is growing, but it will never happen is long as well-intentioned appeasers like the folks on this thread continue to do the bidding of the socialists.

58 posted on 12/24/2003 10:31:54 AM PST by presidio9 (Protectionists Treat The Symptoms And Ignore The Disease)
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To: *immigrant_list; A Navy Vet; Lion Den Dan; Free the USA; Libertarianize the GOP; madfly; B4Ranch; ..
ping & Merry Christmas
59 posted on 12/24/2003 10:34:04 AM PST by gubamyster
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To: presidio9
Illegal employment is in no way comparable to murder.

LOL, illegal immigration does not reduce down to mere illegal employment.

I know a Guy with a birthday tomorrow who would tell you that unless you yourself have never broken the law you have no buisness trying to incorporate this observation into your philosophy.

Eh? You cant respect or understand the rule of law if you've ever broken the law? Tell birthday boy he is a moron.

60 posted on 12/24/2003 10:34:18 AM PST by PuNcH
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To: judicial meanz
The Social Security Administration is trying to distribute money from its "Earnings Suspense File," comprising contributions that can’t be matched up with a proper Social Security number. That file mushroomed in the 1990s, fueled by a fast-growing work force of illegal immigrants using fake Social Security numbers to get jobs. By the end of the 2000 tax year, the file contained $374 billion.

In 1994, the agency began sending out "no match" letters warning employers that they had incorrect Social Security numbers on the payroll and should straighten out their files. Last year, the agency sent about 950,000 letters, each listing as many as 500 bad numbers. But according to a report by the University of Illinois at Chicago and several immigrants-rights groups, the agency has had little success in identifying owners of the misallocated funds. The suspense file has kept growing, by $30 billion in 1998, $40 billion in 1999 and $50 billion in 2000. -- Source


61 posted on 12/24/2003 10:35:25 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Gift Is To See The Trout.)
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To: antisocial
Tell me where the communists and the socialists say that they are support ending the welfare entitlements that attract non-productive immigrants. I'm only in favor of immigration that brings more productive workers into the workforce. Since I admit this has a deflationary effect on wages, I fail to see how the communists and the socialists could be in agreement with me.
62 posted on 12/24/2003 10:37:44 AM PST by presidio9 (Protectionists Treat The Symptoms And Ignore The Disease)
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To: PuNcH
LOL, illegal immigration does not reduce down to mere illegal employment.

It does if you had been paying any attention to what I have been saying. If we stop welfare entitlements, there is no other incentive for illegal immigration.

Tell birthday boy he is a moron.

You tell Him yourself. I worship Him.

63 posted on 12/24/2003 10:39:53 AM PST by presidio9 (Protectionists Treat The Symptoms And Ignore The Disease)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Even the Center for Immigration Studies acknowledges that illegal immigrants paid in in excess of $87 billion dollars in taxes over a ten year period of time.>>>>>>>>

LOL.... in this study, after taxes were paid there was still a 78 BILLION deficit, after 10 yrs.



http://www.cis.org/articles/1997/back197.htm
64 posted on 12/24/2003 10:40:43 AM PST by txdoda ("Navy-brat")
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To: presidio9
"Racism" is a concept and word invented by the Left and it was meant to become a manufactured instrument of hate against civilization. The Left will use "racism" till every scrap of humanity is removed from man and we become those perfect beings so beloved by those hateful ideologues without a bit of compassion or an ounce of love in their pathetic little bodies.
65 posted on 12/24/2003 10:41:23 AM PST by junta
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To: presidio9
Those two you would deprive of their gooberment health care will outvote you 2 to 1.
66 posted on 12/24/2003 10:43:21 AM PST by junta
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To: Luis Gonzalez
I'm misinformed about illegal aliens?

I grew up in the southwest, lived on the border, married into a Tex-Mex family, went across the border into Mexico to visit in laws,(later divorced out of that mess) and have witnessed every thing I said with my own eyes.

I dont intend to generalize, but I know of more illegals who dont pay than those who do.

67 posted on 12/24/2003 10:43:31 AM PST by judicial meanz
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To: junta
"Racism" is a concept and word invented by the Left and it was meant to become a manufactured instrument of hate against civilization. The Left will use "racism" till every scrap of humanity is removed from man and we become those perfect beings so beloved by those hateful ideologues without a bit of compassion or an ounce of love in their pathetic little bodies.

A) Again, racism was a minor point. The Left loves to hang on minor points. Style over substance. Socialism is the driving force behind closed borders.
B) Racism against immigrants is very real in this country. Always has been.

68 posted on 12/24/2003 10:43:47 AM PST by presidio9 (Protectionists Treat The Symptoms And Ignore The Disease)
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To: texastoo
You don't seem to realize that republican does not mean conservative. We have about 15 or so republican liberals in the senate (they call themselves moderates). Our esteemed president is about as pro-immigration and pro-pandering to Mexicans as you can get.

Tancredo for President!
69 posted on 12/24/2003 10:44:06 AM PST by antisocial (Texas SCV)
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To: Vigilanteman
Check my comments #3

I didnt say that.


70 posted on 12/24/2003 10:45:26 AM PST by judicial meanz
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To: junta
Those two you would deprive of their gooberment health care will outvote you 2 to 1.

Sorry to see that you've surrendered to the socialists. I like to think that there are a lot more people fed up with the welfare state we have created than there are benefitting from it. Class warfare and guilt are very effective political tools. The key is to get voters to see through the jargon. I am no big fan of Rudy Guiliani, but he was able to accomplish this on a smaller scale in, of all places, NYC.

71 posted on 12/24/2003 10:46:22 AM PST by presidio9 (Protectionists Treat The Symptoms And Ignore The Disease)
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To: presidio9
Opportunists who try to milk tragedies make me sick. How many of the 9/11 terrorists wore a sombrero or had a "z" on the end of his last name?

the "immigrants as terrorists" card is being used by both sides of the immigration debate. The pro-immigrant organizations are stressing that Mexican illegals are workers, not terrorists - as though being an illegal alien were some kind of virtue. Look at the California drivers license issue - both Schwarzenegger and Latino legislators are good with the idea as long as the appropriate security provisions are in place, without even addressing the idea that a DL is a reward to lawbreakers and an enticement to attract more illegals. The press, US government, and Mexican government almost universally states that amnesty would have happened if not for 9/11 and that the reason it didn't was because of security concerns. The real reason it didn't happen is because Americans don't want our country flooded with illegal aliens and because we don't want to shoulder the burden of the social costs that their own countrymen and politicians are unwilling to bear.

72 posted on 12/24/2003 10:46:27 AM PST by Pa' fuera
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To: presidio9
You tell Him yourself. I worship Him.

Ahhh so according to you since we are all sinners we cant possibly understand the rule of law or respect it?

73 posted on 12/24/2003 10:46:36 AM PST by PuNcH
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To: presidio9
"Racism" against Americans is a much bigger problem than worrying about the LaRaza's getting their reward for lawbreaking from socialists and globalist nation haters.
74 posted on 12/24/2003 10:48:15 AM PST by junta
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To: All
Gotta Go. Merry Christas to all those who do not think my buddy with the birthday tomorrow is a "moron."
75 posted on 12/24/2003 10:49:22 AM PST by presidio9 (Protectionists Treat The Symptoms And Ignore The Disease)
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To: AbsoluteJustice
What platform does good ol Vicente have to stand on? Trade embargo with the U.S. ?

That's a great question? I've always wondered, and continue to wonder, where Vicente's leverage is in these negotiations. When we tell him to go to hell, what will the repercussions be? Will he pull his work force out of the US so we can replace them with more friendly and less demanding SE asians and E Europeans?

76 posted on 12/24/2003 10:50:19 AM PST by Pa' fuera
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To: presidio9
Merry Christmas to you Presidio.

Wish you many more to come.
77 posted on 12/24/2003 10:50:31 AM PST by judicial meanz
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To: presidio9
A) Again, racism was a minor point. The Left loves to hang on minor points. Style over substance. Socialism is the driving force behind closed borders.
B) Racism against immigrants is very real in this country. Always has been.

Those two statements are what I was talking about. The socialist websites rail against closed borders and against any form of real or imagined racism. They sound just like you.
78 posted on 12/24/2003 10:55:01 AM PST by antisocial (Texas SCV)
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To: judicial meanz
I know you didn't. I was quoting from the same part of the article and supporting your statement with a real life example.
79 posted on 12/24/2003 10:56:19 AM PST by Vigilanteman
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To: antisocial
Yes, I do realize that republican does not mean conservative.
80 posted on 12/24/2003 10:59:14 AM PST by texastoo ((go California go. Tell it like it is))
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To: presidio9
The backlash is growing and will continue to grow.
81 posted on 12/24/2003 11:07:27 AM PST by texastoo ((go California go. Tell it like it is))
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To: presidio9
The closed border policy has nothing to do with national security. It is directed at Mexico, not Canada, and its main targets are hispanic, not arabic.

that was the pre-9/11 closed border policy, the rationale for which has not gone away. There is now also a national security component, since the border patrol is apprehending illegals from terrorist-sponsoring states. It is true that most illegals are not terrorists, but that doesn't mean they don't create a different set of problems for us. That doesn't mean we should tolerate their presence in this country.

82 posted on 12/24/2003 11:12:30 AM PST by Pa' fuera
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To: Vigilanteman
Sorry man....I mis-read. My mistake.

Good example.

I tried to get a managementjob with a government agency once. Wanted the job for 10 years straight. Applied, qualified ( top 5%) and lost out to a recent immigrant who competed with me on the job, simply because he filled the minority quota they needed.

He had never served in the military, never went to college,and had not paid half the blood I did for this country, but he got the job. Burns me up.

This stuff burns me up afterall these years.
83 posted on 12/24/2003 11:17:20 AM PST by judicial meanz
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Furthermore, it falls on the employer to collect, and submit those tax payments in, not for the individual to send in a check weekly.

absolutely false -- whether my employer withholds from me or not, it is still my obligation to declare my yearly income and pay the requisite amount of taxes on it. And I don't think an illegal alien with a false social security number is in a big hurry to do that.

84 posted on 12/24/2003 11:22:25 AM PST by Pa' fuera
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To: presidio9
I have no interest. I live in NY and I am the whitest-looking guy you ever saw. I believe in competition, not congenital entitlement.

come out here to California - you can compete for a bed in the ER with an illegal immigrant when you're gravely ill!!

85 posted on 12/24/2003 11:24:45 AM PST by Pa' fuera
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To: Luis Gonzalez
The Social Security Administration is trying to distribute money from its "Earnings Suspense File," comprising contributions that can’t be matched up with a proper Social Security number. That file mushroomed in the 1990s, fueled by a fast-growing work force of illegal immigrants using fake Social Security numbers to get jobs. By the end of the 2000 tax year, the file contained $374 billion.

That's terrific news

PS - I still want them out of my country

86 posted on 12/24/2003 11:27:50 AM PST by Pa' fuera
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To: presidio9; Poohbah; BOBTHENAILER
I think it is more this amporhous thing called "culture" some of them are more worried about.

Personally, I'm not sure I like their idea of "culture" at all.
87 posted on 12/24/2003 11:38:19 AM PST by hchutch ("I don't see what the big deal is, I really don't." - Major Vic Deakins, USAF (ret.))
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To: txdoda
That's not the point I was addressing, the poster claimed that they paid no taxes, blatantly wrong.

The Center's study has some inherent flaws in it as well.

88 posted on 12/24/2003 11:40:22 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Gift Is To See The Trout.)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Merry Christmas to you and yours Luis.
89 posted on 12/24/2003 11:41:39 AM PST by CWOJackson
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To: Pa' fuera
"...whether my employer withholds from me or not, it is still my obligation to declare my yearly income and pay the requisite amount of taxes on it."

Gravitas to the illegal IRS from a conservative?

Wonders never cease.

90 posted on 12/24/2003 11:42:11 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Gift Is To See The Trout.)
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To: AbsoluteJustice
Place a newspaper ad for a dishwasher for your restaurant, and tell me how many unemployed programmers respond.
91 posted on 12/24/2003 11:43:39 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Gift Is To See The Trout.)
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To: judicial meanz
"I'm misinformed about illegal aliens?"

Yes.

You claimed that they paid no taxes, they do.

Then you went on to claim that "taking a job from an American", and using welfare benefits inferred some sort of legal status.

Three out of the four points in your post are either blatantly wrong, or make no sense, ergo, you are either misinformed, or disingenuous.

92 posted on 12/24/2003 11:49:09 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Gift Is To See The Trout.)
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To: CWOJackson
And a Merry Christmas to you and yours as well my friend.
93 posted on 12/24/2003 11:55:12 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Gift Is To See The Trout.)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
I know it isn't much, but I see where the Cuban government has recognized Christmas this year. I was shocked.
94 posted on 12/24/2003 11:56:22 AM PST by CWOJackson
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To: presidio9
"come to grips with the presence of eight to 12 million illegals"

Yeah round them up and ship them back where they came from, ASAP!
95 posted on 12/24/2003 11:58:12 AM PST by vladog
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Well, Sir, thats your opinion.

You claim they are wrong points, but the facts I see tell me differently. I guess we have to agree to disagree.

I can take you to a restaurant right now where there are 10 employees from Nicaragua who are illegally in this country and pay no taxes. They are paid in cash and they send some home and keep a small portion for themselves.

As a magistrate, I sat on hundreds of hearings for illegal immigrants who were unrepentent lawbreakers. Not a one was ever deported, even after I ordered them held for INS.

As for the personal attack on my character, go to h*ll. I am neither. I can handle a an attack on facts or figures, but there is no reason to attack my character unless yours are on crumbling ground.

The personal attack on my
96 posted on 12/24/2003 11:58:43 AM PST by judicial meanz
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To: Poohbah
Funny that they complain not about the societal largesse, but merely gripe about some of the recipients.

How can we ever get rid of the welfare system when so many more are being added to it? Of course if you never went to school and have no job skills, you will vote to keep the "safety net". NAFTA sent the jobs the people from Mexico can do to Mexico ---- there aren't enough low-skilled jobs being developed for the numbers moving in.

97 posted on 12/24/2003 12:07:50 PM PST by FITZ
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To: Pa' fuera
"...whether my employer withholds from me or not, it is still my obligation to declare my yearly income and pay the requisite amount of taxes on it."

Filing a return is not the same as paying taxes, taxes are deducted from your pay. You claimed that illegal immigrants paid no taxes...they do.

98 posted on 12/24/2003 12:19:00 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Gift Is To See The Trout.)
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To: judicial meanz
"...but the facts I see tell me differently..."

You have posted no facts.

" can take you to a restaurant right now where there are 10 employees from Nicaragua who are illegally in this country and pay no taxes. They are paid in cash and they send some home and keep a small portion for themselves."

The crime here is committed by the employer.

"As a magistrate, I sat on hundreds of hearings for illegal immigrants who were unrepentent lawbreakers. Not a one was ever deported, even after I ordered them held for INS."

The criminal habits of the minority are not reflective on the majority; this holds true for illegal immigrant or natural born citizens.

"As for the personal attack on my character, go to h*ll"

There was no personal attack anywhere.

99 posted on 12/24/2003 12:22:26 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Gift Is To See The Trout.)
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To: CWOJackson
Castro is feeling uneasy about his future...on both sides of life.
100 posted on 12/24/2003 12:23:46 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Gift Is To See The Trout.)
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