Posted on 12/25/2003 10:19:48 AM PST by 4.1O dana super trac pak
Edited on 04/29/2004 2:03:37 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]
Would you support a temporary work visa for illegal aliens?
(Excerpt) Read more at cnn.com ...
I kind of felt sorry for mercy yesterday. He walked into a lions den and took a beating.
I don't accept as fact that illegal immigrants are a net drain on our society. To start with, we don't have any idea how many are really here, much less who they are & what they do. It is possible to calculate how much the loser/ lounger element of the illegal immigrant population is costing because that's a matter of record. What is impossible to quantify is the value added component because so much of it is part of the underground economy, cash-only, off the books, lost in the paper trail of contractor/ sub-contractor, false papers, working under false/ stolen/ deceased's SS numbers.... All of this occurs & occurs on a regular basis and it is, I repeat, impossible to quantify. We can reasonably estimate what the losers cost the American taxpayer, but we have no real idea of what the illegal immigrant worker contributes to this society. You cannot reach a reasonable conclusion when you can see only one side of the balance sheet.
It's reasonable to state that probably most of recently arrived illegal laborers are unskilled. It's also reasonable that most of them come here w/ the desire to learn skills and that many do become skilled labor, especially those who enter the construction trades.
People like you tend to ignore the dilution of our society by the incursion of these criminals.
What do you mean by dilution of our society?
I presume from context that you consider all illegal immigrants to be criminals. I do not. While crossing the border w/o proper papers is technically illegal, I don't consider a guy who enters the country illegally in order to find work, who holds down a job so he can feed & clothe his family to be a criminal. Criminal is a term that I reserve for more onerous behavior like burglary, rape, murder. In that context, I most certainly don't support criminal behavior.
What I do believe is that immigrants have an obligation to integrate into our society & learn American English. A common language is central to a cohesive society. At the same time, I think that all Americans should learn a second language because it just plain will make us more educated. What I believe is that an Us Against Them attitude is counter-productive to creating a cohesive society. Immigrants have an obligation to intergrate & society has an obligation to meet them halfway. Doing so enriches our society. Real criminals belong in jail or in front of a firing squad.
I haven't read all of the posts on this thread but, that said, I don't think any one person is arguing to keep the broken system we have in place. Each & every one of us recognizes that there is a real & true problem and the points of disagreement are based on different opinions of how to address the problem. We're all saying we've had enough, let's do something about it. A few of us, myself included, prefer a proactive solution that acknowledges that immigrant workers can be productive additions to society rather than a strictly reactive & impossible proposal to ship them them all back to their countries of origin. We are arguing against the nanny/ welfare/ cradle to grave mentality that is encouraging the worst of the lot to flood the borders. Stop the handouts & those who are not willing to be productive members of American society will not have the inducements to come here. Quit looking to Mexico for the solution because, for darned sure, Fox doesn't want the losers back. He's glad to be rid of them.
As for the arguement that we are a nation of immigrants - while that may be true do we not then have the right to say - now- it is time to stop it? If not, then, why not?
Certainly, you, me, we have the right to say, to demand that we stop it. But the larger question is: Do we really want to stop it? Consider for a moment that an expanding population is fuel for growth. And then consider this fact: The total fertility rate in the United States (the number of children born in a lifetime to a woman) has dropped below replacement level. The current TFR in the United States is 2.01...slightly over 2 live births per. Replacement level is considered to be 2.1 (owing to infant mortality). And this is a continuation of a downward trend. Looking to Europe, we can see a brewing crisis there because of declining birth/ fertility rates that are well below the replacement level. Consider that the TFR in Italy is at 1.2% and that country is offering financial inducements for people to have children. A chief reason as to why the US TFR has not dropped as precipitiously as Europe's is because of immigration--and yet, we have crossed the threshold of not quite producing children at a population replacement level and the trend is towards fewer & fewer births. The reason that the United States is not losing population is because of longer life expectancies & immigration.
What will it take to convince you? Cost of Amnesty (posted earlier) This was for only 2.7 million. We are talking about at least ten million now.
It's reasonable to state that probably most of recently arrived illegal laborers are unskilled. It's also reasonable that most of them come here w/ the desire to learn skills and that many do become skilled labor, especially those who enter the construction trades.
Does this somehow negate all their legal transgressions? I don't care what they are here to do. They are illegal. They have shown utter contempt at our laws; why should this be rewarded?
What is impossible to quantify is the value added component because so much of it is part of the underground economy...
How can you assume that this is positive? Have you seen the lines at the Western Union terminals sending money back "home". Where is the benefit to American society?
What do you mean by dilution of our society?
I mean the need for bilingual forms, interpretors, et. al. When a teacher in school is forced to slow down classes to speak in two languages learning is retarded. I have no interest in hispanic culture. I am tired of having it forced on me.
At the same time, I think that all Americans should learn a second language because it just plain will make us more educated.
That should be by choice. Not to appease the illegals.
But the larger question is: Do we really want to stop it?
Unequivically - Yes!
You make a lot of sense in your position. However, I can't get past the lack of respect these people have shown and continue to show to the sovereignty of America and her people. I don't like the idea of these people skirting laws and benefiting from the generosity of America while at the same time spitting in her eye. It galls me.
Nope. And, in my opinion, it's a toss-up between State Dept. & INS as to which is the most derelict & dangerous.
One of these 'guest-worker' programs has the 'guests' tracked for 6 (?) YEARS and a *promise* to work in agriculture 2 months each year. How many agents doing how much paperwork is this going to take?? Won't this too be open to fraud??
I don't know how many agents it would require. Doesn't have to mean new hires. Bounce the loafers off welfare & use that freed up welfare agency manpower to track workers. Everything is open to fraud. Suggestion: End this coddling of gov't worker criminals that goes on. Often agencies protect their own & refuse to even name the individual worker who is caught. Remember the lynx hair shenanigans--I don't think that public employee was ever identified. Outrageous, is what that is. I'm in favor of cutting off the thumbs of corrupt individuals & branding their foreheads w/ a T for thief, but since that would probably be considered cruel & unusual punishment, I'll settle for having them publicly identified, prosecuted and fired from civil service forever. Any pension earned will first be used to reimburse the state for the total amount the fraud cost taxpayers.
If the US continues to *accept* a million of mexico's poor a year, What's going to be left in mexico in 20 years ?? Rich corrupt politicians, rich dope smugglers, and WHO knows what else.
Basically, that is as much, if not more, Mexico's problem and it is within Mexico's power to do much more to control emigration. The country is losing a lot of its workforce, and although many are unskilled, they are losing what I would consider the spunkier, more motivated members of that class...the people who take the risks to get here so they can get jobs & better educations for their children. If Mexico wants to continue to attract industries to their country, Mexico will have to improve their educational & health care facilities. Industry will demand a better class of worker. And perhaps some of those who are educated in this country will return & enter politics, organize labor & work to clean up politics. It is not in the interest of the United States to have a third world country on our southern border.
but it helps if you at least glance at the other guy's argument.
I've heard all your arguements yesterday. Then I signed off when you said what you did. I just figured it would be quicker just to ask you.
I'd bet your NOT talking about Crawford.
I hear there is a ranch in Crawford that won't let illegals cut thru.
I can't blame them one bit and wish them luck.
I think immigration issues are going to get verrry interesting.
I do my best to bring this up to peoples attention.
Illegal immigration isn't that big a problem here yet in my state. Its hard to wake some of the sheeple up.
Your not the first person in one of the border states to make that statement. Several freepers in Arizona have the same problem.
I held my nose and voted for Bush figuring that the election in Missouri would be close. But I knew, as a rich kid he would never know what the working and middle classes in this country have to go through.
And I said we should toss the bums, the professionally unemployed, back to their country of origin. I'm not amazed that the gov't spends more on illegal immigrants than the gov't says it collects from illegal immigrants. I stand by my statement: I don't accept as fact that illegal immigrants are a net drain on our society. As an illustration--One of the major arguments one hears is that illegal workers are willing to work for less than an American will accept in a comparable job. Who benefits? The American employer because he gets the same job done for less money & therefor he makes either a larger profit or does a larger volume of business and earns more money.
Does this somehow negate all their legal transgressions? I don't care what they are here to do. They are illegal. They have shown utter contempt at our laws; why should this be rewarded?
We disagree on the finer points of what each of us considers to be criminal behavior. This is a fundamental difference in opinion & we'll just have to agree to disagree.
How can you assume that this is positive? Have you seen the lines at the Western Union terminals sending money back "home". Where is the benefit to American society?
I don't know where my local Western Union is, so nope, I haven't seen that. I have seen them lined up at the local quik shop to buy milk, cigarettes & phone cards, clearly what are workers eating lunch in restaurants, I see their kids using cell phones, I see them buying gasoline & groceries & shopping at Shop-Ko, K-Mart & Wal-Mart. I've seen them arrive in waves at rummage sales, mine included, making multiple purchases & always paying in cash. And my neighborhood has a new Mexican food store & restaurant (owned by Hispanics) businesses that I patronize & businesses that pay rent, meet a payroll, purchase supplies & inventory, collect sales taxes... Take heart in that they're sending money back to relatives in Mexico instead of packing the entire clan north of the border.
I mean the need for bilingual forms, interpretors, et. al. When a teacher in school is forced to slow down classes to speak in two languages learning is retarded. I have no interest in hispanic culture. I am tired of having it forced on me.
We agree about language. I think it's incumbent upon them to learn to speak American English. Note that I said that Americans should learn to speak a second language. Didn't say it should be compulsory, nor did I say it had to be Spanish--although I think that learning Spanish would be the most prudent choice of a second language.
As to a previous mention about utter contempt for our laws, I suspect that this attitude could very well be a jaded view of laws & the entire legal systems in general. Consider their point of reference-----Given the total state of corruption of the Mexican legal system, is it any wonder?
And as to the lack of respect of American soverignty and people, again consider their point of reference--that is, as a people who were conquered by white Europeans. Some things are just what they are and will take a long, long time to change.
But I do understand where you're coming from & know your position well because I used to hold many of the same positions that you do. It was through discussions like this that my perspective began to change. Living as I now do in an area brimming w/ 1st & 2nd generations removed from Old Europe, I get a gut full of cultural diversity from time to time myself. :)
Hey, now. Of course you can trust the government.
If you don't believe me, go ask an American Indian.
I have a question: Do you think, if the United States was attacked by an invading force, (I will disregard the illegals in this scenario) that these illegals we have been talking about would take up arms for America? Or would they just expect us to defend it for them? Would they be willing to die to defend the very freedoms we provide them?
One of the things that bothers me most about them is that when they refer to "my country" they are speaking of the their country of origin. I work with many immigrants. I suspect, and am told, that many are illegal. Most have been here for a few years. They do not accept America as "my country". For them their time here is just a way to make money. I see no loyalty to the very nation and its people that gives them their freedoms.
As you may know, just like with children, they never quite learn the value of something if it given to them as opposed to having earned it. Do you really think they value living in America the same way I do? From my discussion with them I cannot say they do.
I don't know the solution to this problem. However, handing them their freedom without their having earned it will not make them value it. We cannot give in and just let them take, take, take and not show us the respect we have earned by being good citizens. When my grandparents came here they had to work hard to become citizens. The left their country of origin behind and never looked back. We kept up some family traditions but they never celebrated national holidays from their country of origin. Why then do we accept when illegals celebrate holidays from their country of origin.
When we celebrate the 4th of July, do you think these illegals even understand what it is that gave them the day off? The pride I feel on Memorial Day or Veteran's Day I am sure is lost on the illegals. They can't possible understand what we are celebrating because they don't care about America. To them it is source of money and that's all.
Must have legal status (green card) to serve in the military. According to the WSJ, there are currently over 31,000 non-citizen foreign nationals serving in the US militay. Hispanics are the largest group. Here's a clip from April 4, 2003 WSJ:
The Marines have a number of foreign nationals in their ranks. Out of a force of 175,000, 7,331 are not yet citizens of the United States and 5,416 became citizens after enlisting. Hispanics are by far the largest group — 3,472 of the non-citizen Marines.
Defense officials estimate there are 31,000 foreign nationals serving in all the service branches, many of whom are now fighting in the Gulf. And while polls say 80% of Mexicans do not support this war, the U.S. Embassy in Mexico City has been swamped with hundreds of requests to enlist in the U.S. military. Even as American casualties are coming home, there are plenty of would-be Americans who'd be more than happy to join the fight for our national security if it means they'd have a chance at living better lives afterward.
Keeping in mind that these soldiers are fighting for the United States in Iraq, I would imagine that the support would be even greater if the US/the North American continent were invaded. Thousands of Mexicans crossed the border & joined the US military after Pearl Harbor. I would think that if the US was invaded, then Mexico & Canada would certainly join the US to expel the invaders from the North American continent.
To answer your question--YES, absolutely YES.
One of the things that bothers me most about them is that when they refer to "my country" they are speaking of the their country of origin.
A large community of American & Canadian expatriates are currently living in Mexico, mostly retirees. I would fully expect that when those expatriates talk about my country, they are referring to their country of origin. There is nothing at all unusual to refer to the country where you were born, of which you are a citizen, as my country. That is where their cultural identity was formed. Until they have attained legal status & until they earn their citizenship, the United States is not their country. I lived most of my life in Oklahoma; that's where my cultural identity was formed. I've lived in Wisconsin for nearly 7 years, but I still think of myself as a southwesterner; I do not identify myself to me as a Wisconsinite. Take Texans are a good illustration of a cultural identity...a Texan is always a Texan no matter how long they've been gone nor where they go.
Do you really think they value living in America the same way I do?
No one values living in America the same way you do. It's an individual thing. Example: Who has ever gone through school in the US w/o having written at least one essay about What America Means to Me? Read 20 of those essays, read 100 of those essays--they will all be different because we are individuals and we have individual beliefs & values.
Why then do we accept when illegals celebrate holidays from their country of origin.
Because it's not really any of our business, that's why. Because many of their holidays are religious holidays. Cinco de Mayo is a political holiday that celebrates whipping French forces in Mexico and ridding Mexico of an Austrian monarch--Maximillian. Wow! Sounds like a very American thing to do, doesn't it? We should join them in celebrating it.
When we celebrate the 4th of July, do you think these illegals even understand what it is that gave them the day off? The pride I feel on Memorial Day or Veteran's Day I am sure is lost on the illegals.
Do you still think that? After learning that thousands & thousands of Hispanics have served in the United States military? When Mexico has found many battles for their own independence? When untold numbers of Hispanics have died fighting for the United States/ fighting for Mexican independence? And, is not learning the significance of American holidays a very significant part of the studies to become a citizen? And do you really think that the illegals understand less about American holidays than many people living in the 'hood, or the average American teenager, who has been raised in the culture of the United States? Just how much is it reasonable to expect poor, poorly educated people to know about the world outside the pursuit of surviving from day to day?
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