Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

POLL: Would you support a temporary work visa for illegal aliens?
Lou Dobbs ^ | 12/25/03

Posted on 12/25/2003 10:19:48 AM PST by 4.1O dana super trac pak

Edited on 04/29/2004 2:03:37 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

Would you support a temporary work visa for illegal aliens?


(Excerpt) Read more at cnn.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Crime/Corruption; Government
KEYWORDS: aliens; amnesty; bleedinghearts; poll; pollamnesty
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100101-150151-200201-238 last
To: elli1
Use some freaking common sense because the current system does an injustice to American taxpayers and the honest & hard-working folks who come here to work and earn their way in life. Work permits--OK. Loafing losers--No way.>>>>>>>>

Well, at last we agree, as do 80-90% of Americans polled........

BUT, (most) in BOTH parties, don't have what it takes to say ENOUGH is ENOUGH.

Can you name ONE gov't agency that IS doing the job their *supposed* to be doing, and isn't FULL of loopholes??

One of these 'guest-worker' programs has the 'guests' tracked for 6 (?) YEARS and a *promise* to work in agriculture 2 months each year. How many agents doing how much paperwork is this going to take?? Won't this too be open to fraud??

Another Question : If the US continues to *accept* a million of mexico's poor a year, What's going to be left in mexico in 20 years ?? Rich corrupt politicians, rich dope smugglers, and WHO knows what else.
201 posted on 12/26/2003 12:54:07 PM PST by txdoda ("Navy-brat")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 199 | View Replies]

To: Missouri
I can't get anyone who wants to work.

What kind of business are you in?>>>>>>>


I think he 'hollered' at me that he's a TX Rancher.....:o(

And since my 'yankee' mom insisted that this 'transplanted Texan' have manners,

My sympathies are with him, with 'the news of the day' re: the cattle business
202 posted on 12/26/2003 1:21:36 PM PST by txdoda ("Navy-brat")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 196 | View Replies]

To: txdoda
My sympathies are with him

I kind of felt sorry for mercy yesterday. He walked into a lions den and took a beating.

203 posted on 12/26/2003 1:39:12 PM PST by Missouri
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 202 | View Replies]

To: raybbr
You fail to respond to the facts presented time and again that illegal immigrants are a drain on our society. They cannot, due to lack of education or the fact that most of them are unskilled labor, raise the level of our society. It is impossible.

I don't accept as fact that illegal immigrants are a net drain on our society. To start with, we don't have any idea how many are really here, much less who they are & what they do. It is possible to calculate how much the loser/ lounger element of the illegal immigrant population is costing because that's a matter of record. What is impossible to quantify is the value added component because so much of it is part of the underground economy, cash-only, off the books, lost in the paper trail of contractor/ sub-contractor, false papers, working under false/ stolen/ deceased's SS numbers.... All of this occurs & occurs on a regular basis and it is, I repeat, impossible to quantify. We can reasonably estimate what the losers cost the American taxpayer, but we have no real idea of what the illegal immigrant worker contributes to this society. You cannot reach a reasonable conclusion when you can see only one side of the balance sheet.

It's reasonable to state that probably most of recently arrived illegal laborers are unskilled. It's also reasonable that most of them come here w/ the desire to learn skills and that many do become skilled labor, especially those who enter the construction trades.

People like you tend to ignore the dilution of our society by the incursion of these criminals.

What do you mean by dilution of our society?

I presume from context that you consider all illegal immigrants to be criminals. I do not. While crossing the border w/o proper papers is technically illegal, I don't consider a guy who enters the country illegally in order to find work, who holds down a job so he can feed & clothe his family to be a criminal. Criminal is a term that I reserve for more onerous behavior like burglary, rape, murder. In that context, I most certainly don't support criminal behavior.

What I do believe is that immigrants have an obligation to integrate into our society & learn American English. A common language is central to a cohesive society. At the same time, I think that all Americans should learn a second language because it just plain will make us more educated. What I believe is that an Us Against Them attitude is counter-productive to creating a cohesive society. Immigrants have an obligation to intergrate & society has an obligation to meet them halfway. Doing so enriches our society. Real criminals belong in jail or in front of a firing squad.

I haven't read all of the posts on this thread but, that said, I don't think any one person is arguing to keep the broken system we have in place. Each & every one of us recognizes that there is a real & true problem and the points of disagreement are based on different opinions of how to address the problem. We're all saying we've had enough, let's do something about it. A few of us, myself included, prefer a proactive solution that acknowledges that immigrant workers can be productive additions to society rather than a strictly reactive & impossible proposal to ship them them all back to their countries of origin. We are arguing against the nanny/ welfare/ cradle to grave mentality that is encouraging the worst of the lot to flood the borders. Stop the handouts & those who are not willing to be productive members of American society will not have the inducements to come here. Quit looking to Mexico for the solution because, for darned sure, Fox doesn't want the losers back. He's glad to be rid of them.

As for the arguement that we are a nation of immigrants - while that may be true do we not then have the right to say - now- it is time to stop it? If not, then, why not?

Certainly, you, me, we have the right to say, to demand that we stop it. But the larger question is: Do we really want to stop it? Consider for a moment that an expanding population is fuel for growth. And then consider this fact: The total fertility rate in the United States (the number of children born in a lifetime to a woman) has dropped below replacement level. The current TFR in the United States is 2.01...slightly over 2 live births per. Replacement level is considered to be 2.1 (owing to infant mortality). And this is a continuation of a downward trend. Looking to Europe, we can see a brewing crisis there because of declining birth/ fertility rates that are well below the replacement level. Consider that the TFR in Italy is at 1.2% and that country is offering financial inducements for people to have children. A chief reason as to why the US TFR has not dropped as precipitiously as Europe's is because of immigration--and yet, we have crossed the threshold of not quite producing children at a population replacement level and the trend is towards fewer & fewer births. The reason that the United States is not losing population is because of longer life expectancies & immigration.

204 posted on 12/26/2003 2:17:48 PM PST by elli1
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 198 | View Replies]

To: Missouri
I kind of felt sorry for mercy yesterday. He walked into a lions den and took a beating.>>>>>

I usually ignore those types, and I was really surprised when he said he's in TX.

I can assure very few Texans in my small town agree with him.

We've been invaded & this small town (-20,000) has really changed, and NOT for the better.

We've even caught 'invaders' stealing @ garage sales.

We've raised four kids, & we're about 'down to our last teen'. I will be SOOO Happy to be through will public schools.

(teen calls.....back later)
205 posted on 12/26/2003 2:50:25 PM PST by txdoda ("Navy-brat")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 203 | View Replies]

To: elli1
I don't accept as fact that illegal immigrants are a net drain on our society.

What will it take to convince you? Cost of Amnesty (posted earlier) This was for only 2.7 million. We are talking about at least ten million now.

It's reasonable to state that probably most of recently arrived illegal laborers are unskilled. It's also reasonable that most of them come here w/ the desire to learn skills and that many do become skilled labor, especially those who enter the construction trades.

Does this somehow negate all their legal transgressions? I don't care what they are here to do. They are illegal. They have shown utter contempt at our laws; why should this be rewarded?

What is impossible to quantify is the value added component because so much of it is part of the underground economy...

How can you assume that this is positive? Have you seen the lines at the Western Union terminals sending money back "home". Where is the benefit to American society?

What do you mean by dilution of our society?

I mean the need for bilingual forms, interpretors, et. al. When a teacher in school is forced to slow down classes to speak in two languages learning is retarded. I have no interest in hispanic culture. I am tired of having it forced on me.

At the same time, I think that all Americans should learn a second language because it just plain will make us more educated.

That should be by choice. Not to appease the illegals.

But the larger question is: Do we really want to stop it?

Unequivically - Yes!

You make a lot of sense in your position. However, I can't get past the lack of respect these people have shown and continue to show to the sovereignty of America and her people. I don't like the idea of these people skirting laws and benefiting from the generosity of America while at the same time spitting in her eye. It galls me.

206 posted on 12/26/2003 2:56:49 PM PST by raybbr
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 204 | View Replies]

To: raybbr
It 'sounds' as if you live in kalyfornicate. I am sorry for you. I fled with my life and my sanity ten years ago.

Here in texas we have lived with Mexican culture since the beginning. It is said the Mexican Consulate in San Antonio has more real power than the mayor. I don't doubt it.

I too am worried about too many unaculturated Mexicans in this country. Especially given all the multi-cultural (anti-American) BS poluting our nation these days.

Believe me I have no special love for Mexicans. I'm so white I glow and am more than average zenophobic and I'm not kidding.

I just think their labor is indespensible and given our border situation and our judiciary the most effective way to deal with them is a guest worker program as I have described.
207 posted on 12/26/2003 3:36:15 PM PST by mercy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 200 | View Replies]

To: Missouri
Try reading the thread. I know you like to see yourself in print but it helps if you at least glance at the other guy's argument.
208 posted on 12/26/2003 3:39:10 PM PST by mercy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 196 | View Replies]

To: elli1
BUMP!
209 posted on 12/26/2003 3:44:22 PM PST by mercy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 204 | View Replies]

To: txdoda
Can you name ONE gov't agency that IS doing the job their *supposed* to be doing, and isn't FULL of loopholes??

Nope. And, in my opinion, it's a toss-up between State Dept. & INS as to which is the most derelict & dangerous.

One of these 'guest-worker' programs has the 'guests' tracked for 6 (?) YEARS and a *promise* to work in agriculture 2 months each year. How many agents doing how much paperwork is this going to take?? Won't this too be open to fraud??

I don't know how many agents it would require. Doesn't have to mean new hires. Bounce the loafers off welfare & use that freed up welfare agency manpower to track workers. Everything is open to fraud. Suggestion: End this coddling of gov't worker criminals that goes on. Often agencies protect their own & refuse to even name the individual worker who is caught. Remember the lynx hair shenanigans--I don't think that public employee was ever identified. Outrageous, is what that is. I'm in favor of cutting off the thumbs of corrupt individuals & branding their foreheads w/ a T for thief, but since that would probably be considered cruel & unusual punishment, I'll settle for having them publicly identified, prosecuted and fired from civil service forever. Any pension earned will first be used to reimburse the state for the total amount the fraud cost taxpayers.

If the US continues to *accept* a million of mexico's poor a year, What's going to be left in mexico in 20 years ?? Rich corrupt politicians, rich dope smugglers, and WHO knows what else.

Basically, that is as much, if not more, Mexico's problem and it is within Mexico's power to do much more to control emigration. The country is losing a lot of its workforce, and although many are unskilled, they are losing what I would consider the spunkier, more motivated members of that class...the people who take the risks to get here so they can get jobs & better educations for their children. If Mexico wants to continue to attract industries to their country, Mexico will have to improve their educational & health care facilities. Industry will demand a better class of worker. And perhaps some of those who are educated in this country will return & enter politics, organize labor & work to clean up politics. It is not in the interest of the United States to have a third world country on our southern border.

210 posted on 12/26/2003 4:14:10 PM PST by elli1
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 201 | View Replies]

To: mercy
So your a Texas rancher.

but it helps if you at least glance at the other guy's argument.

I've heard all your arguements yesterday. Then I signed off when you said what you did. I just figured it would be quicker just to ask you.

211 posted on 12/26/2003 4:16:40 PM PST by Missouri
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 208 | View Replies]

To: txdoda
We've been invaded & this small town (-20,000) has really changed, and NOT for the better.

I'd bet your NOT talking about Crawford.

I hear there is a ranch in Crawford that won't let illegals cut thru.

212 posted on 12/26/2003 4:21:18 PM PST by Missouri
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 205 | View Replies]

To: Missouri
HMMM.....maybe we should re-think that sympathy.

Anyway, did you read about the LEGALS getting their lawsuit against the US gov't??? Seems they would liketo be 'refunded' thier fees, time & effort they put into coming to the USA LEGALLY. They feel the gov't will be guilty of 'showing preferance' if they REWARD the illegals with another amnesty (or *whatever the gov't calls it today).

This *might* be a excellent move, I hope they also through in the 'discrimination' word, just for back-up. Maybe thet can SUE the gov't into enforcing ALL our laws.

Then with the illegals now SUING the employers that work them, I think immigration issues are going to get verrry interesting.
213 posted on 12/26/2003 4:25:59 PM PST by txdoda ("Navy-brat")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 203 | View Replies]

To: txdoda
Anyway, did you read about the LEGALS getting their lawsuit against the US gov't??? Seems they would liketo be 'refunded' thier fees, time & effort they put into coming to the USA LEGALLY. They feel the gov't will be guilty of 'showing preferance' if they REWARD the illegals with another amnesty (or *whatever the gov't calls it today).

I can't blame them one bit and wish them luck.

I think immigration issues are going to get verrry interesting.

I do my best to bring this up to peoples attention.

Illegal immigration isn't that big a problem here yet in my state. Its hard to wake some of the sheeple up.

214 posted on 12/26/2003 4:32:44 PM PST by Missouri
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 213 | View Replies]

To: Missouri
I'd bet your NOT talking about Crawford.

I hear there is a ranch in Crawford that won't let illegals cut thru.>>>>>>>

I WISH illegals were marching thru there night & day leaving a ton of trash/human waste as proof of their trip.

Did you see the interview with Mr. & Mrs. B the other night "We always take a New Year Walk @ dawn. When were @ the ranch we walk every morning, we enjoy it so much."

Why don't they grab their guns, cell phone, big dogs, TRASH SACKS and go enjoy a walk with some citizen rancher who lives anywhere near out southern border.

See how *nice* it is for citizens when our gov't practices *selective* enforcement of our laws.
215 posted on 12/26/2003 4:39:23 PM PST by txdoda ("Navy-brat")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 212 | View Replies]

To: txdoda
Why don't they grab their guns, cell phone, big dogs, TRASH SACKS and go enjoy a walk with some citizen rancher who lives anywhere near out southern border.

Your not the first person in one of the border states to make that statement. Several freepers in Arizona have the same problem.

I held my nose and voted for Bush figuring that the election in Missouri would be close. But I knew, as a rich kid he would never know what the working and middle classes in this country have to go through.

216 posted on 12/26/2003 5:59:00 PM PST by Missouri
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 215 | View Replies]

To: raybbr
What will it take to convince you? Cost of Amnesty (posted earlier) This was for only 2.7 million. We are talking about at least ten million now.

And I said we should toss the bums, the professionally unemployed, back to their country of origin. I'm not amazed that the gov't spends more on illegal immigrants than the gov't says it collects from illegal immigrants. I stand by my statement: I don't accept as fact that illegal immigrants are a net drain on our society. As an illustration--One of the major arguments one hears is that illegal workers are willing to work for less than an American will accept in a comparable job. Who benefits? The American employer because he gets the same job done for less money & therefor he makes either a larger profit or does a larger volume of business and earns more money.

Does this somehow negate all their legal transgressions? I don't care what they are here to do. They are illegal. They have shown utter contempt at our laws; why should this be rewarded?

We disagree on the finer points of what each of us considers to be criminal behavior. This is a fundamental difference in opinion & we'll just have to agree to disagree.

How can you assume that this is positive? Have you seen the lines at the Western Union terminals sending money back "home". Where is the benefit to American society?

I don't know where my local Western Union is, so nope, I haven't seen that. I have seen them lined up at the local quik shop to buy milk, cigarettes & phone cards, clearly what are workers eating lunch in restaurants, I see their kids using cell phones, I see them buying gasoline & groceries & shopping at Shop-Ko, K-Mart & Wal-Mart. I've seen them arrive in waves at rummage sales, mine included, making multiple purchases & always paying in cash. And my neighborhood has a new Mexican food store & restaurant (owned by Hispanics) businesses that I patronize & businesses that pay rent, meet a payroll, purchase supplies & inventory, collect sales taxes... Take heart in that they're sending money back to relatives in Mexico instead of packing the entire clan north of the border.

I mean the need for bilingual forms, interpretors, et. al. When a teacher in school is forced to slow down classes to speak in two languages learning is retarded. I have no interest in hispanic culture. I am tired of having it forced on me.

We agree about language. I think it's incumbent upon them to learn to speak American English. Note that I said that Americans should learn to speak a second language. Didn't say it should be compulsory, nor did I say it had to be Spanish--although I think that learning Spanish would be the most prudent choice of a second language.

As to a previous mention about utter contempt for our laws, I suspect that this attitude could very well be a jaded view of laws & the entire legal systems in general. Consider their point of reference-----Given the total state of corruption of the Mexican legal system, is it any wonder?

And as to the lack of respect of American soverignty and people, again consider their point of reference--that is, as a people who were conquered by white Europeans. Some things are just what they are and will take a long, long time to change.

But I do understand where you're coming from & know your position well because I used to hold many of the same positions that you do. It was through discussions like this that my perspective began to change. Living as I now do in an area brimming w/ 1st & 2nd generations removed from Old Europe, I get a gut full of cultural diversity from time to time myself. :)

217 posted on 12/26/2003 6:05:59 PM PST by elli1
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 206 | View Replies]

To: txdoda
Oh well, guess he's lonely in that 4% that 'trust our gov't to do the right thing about illegal immigration'.......

Hey, now. Of course you can trust the government.

If you don't believe me, go ask an American Indian.

218 posted on 12/26/2003 6:28:09 PM PST by JackelopeBreeder (Proud to be a loco gringo armed vigilante terrorist cucaracha!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 136 | View Replies]

To: elli1; mercy
I have to disagree with both of you. You both have the same view on this issue.

I have a question: Do you think, if the United States was attacked by an invading force, (I will disregard the illegals in this scenario) that these illegals we have been talking about would take up arms for America? Or would they just expect us to defend it for them? Would they be willing to die to defend the very freedoms we provide them?

One of the things that bothers me most about them is that when they refer to "my country" they are speaking of the their country of origin. I work with many immigrants. I suspect, and am told, that many are illegal. Most have been here for a few years. They do not accept America as "my country". For them their time here is just a way to make money. I see no loyalty to the very nation and its people that gives them their freedoms.

As you may know, just like with children, they never quite learn the value of something if it given to them as opposed to having earned it. Do you really think they value living in America the same way I do? From my discussion with them I cannot say they do.

I don't know the solution to this problem. However, handing them their freedom without their having earned it will not make them value it. We cannot give in and just let them take, take, take and not show us the respect we have earned by being good citizens. When my grandparents came here they had to work hard to become citizens. The left their country of origin behind and never looked back. We kept up some family traditions but they never celebrated national holidays from their country of origin. Why then do we accept when illegals celebrate holidays from their country of origin.

When we celebrate the 4th of July, do you think these illegals even understand what it is that gave them the day off? The pride I feel on Memorial Day or Veteran's Day I am sure is lost on the illegals. They can't possible understand what we are celebrating because they don't care about America. To them it is source of money and that's all.

219 posted on 12/27/2003 3:24:20 AM PST by raybbr
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 217 | View Replies]

To: raybbr
Do you think, if the United States was attacked by an invading force, (I will disregard the illegals in this scenario) that these illegals we have been talking about would take up arms for America? Or would they just expect us to defend it for them? Would they be willing to die to defend the very freedoms we provide them?

Must have legal status (green card) to serve in the military. According to the WSJ, there are currently over 31,000 non-citizen foreign nationals serving in the US militay. Hispanics are the largest group. Here's a clip from April 4, 2003 WSJ:

The Marines have a number of foreign nationals in their ranks. Out of a force of 175,000, 7,331 are not yet citizens of the United States and 5,416 became citizens after enlisting. Hispanics are by far the largest group — 3,472 of the non-citizen Marines.

Defense officials estimate there are 31,000 foreign nationals serving in all the service branches, many of whom are now fighting in the Gulf. And while polls say 80% of Mexicans do not support this war, the U.S. Embassy in Mexico City has been swamped with hundreds of requests to enlist in the U.S. military. Even as American casualties are coming home, there are plenty of would-be Americans who'd be more than happy to join the fight for our national security if it means they'd have a chance at living better lives afterward.

Keeping in mind that these soldiers are fighting for the United States in Iraq, I would imagine that the support would be even greater if the US/the North American continent were invaded. Thousands of Mexicans crossed the border & joined the US military after Pearl Harbor. I would think that if the US was invaded, then Mexico & Canada would certainly join the US to expel the invaders from the North American continent.

To answer your question--YES, absolutely YES.

One of the things that bothers me most about them is that when they refer to "my country" they are speaking of the their country of origin.

A large community of American & Canadian expatriates are currently living in Mexico, mostly retirees. I would fully expect that when those expatriates talk about my country, they are referring to their country of origin. There is nothing at all unusual to refer to the country where you were born, of which you are a citizen, as my country. That is where their cultural identity was formed. Until they have attained legal status & until they earn their citizenship, the United States is not their country. I lived most of my life in Oklahoma; that's where my cultural identity was formed. I've lived in Wisconsin for nearly 7 years, but I still think of myself as a southwesterner; I do not identify myself to me as a Wisconsinite. Take Texans are a good illustration of a cultural identity...a Texan is always a Texan no matter how long they've been gone nor where they go.

Do you really think they value living in America the same way I do?

No one values living in America the same way you do. It's an individual thing. Example: Who has ever gone through school in the US w/o having written at least one essay about What America Means to Me? Read 20 of those essays, read 100 of those essays--they will all be different because we are individuals and we have individual beliefs & values.

Why then do we accept when illegals celebrate holidays from their country of origin.

Because it's not really any of our business, that's why. Because many of their holidays are religious holidays. Cinco de Mayo is a political holiday that celebrates whipping French forces in Mexico and ridding Mexico of an Austrian monarch--Maximillian. Wow! Sounds like a very American thing to do, doesn't it? We should join them in celebrating it.

When we celebrate the 4th of July, do you think these illegals even understand what it is that gave them the day off? The pride I feel on Memorial Day or Veteran's Day I am sure is lost on the illegals.

Do you still think that? After learning that thousands & thousands of Hispanics have served in the United States military? When Mexico has found many battles for their own independence? When untold numbers of Hispanics have died fighting for the United States/ fighting for Mexican independence? And, is not learning the significance of American holidays a very significant part of the studies to become a citizen? And do you really think that the illegals understand less about American holidays than many people living in the 'hood, or the average American teenager, who has been raised in the culture of the United States? Just how much is it reasonable to expect poor, poorly educated people to know about the world outside the pursuit of surviving from day to day?

220 posted on 12/27/2003 10:25:25 AM PST by elli1
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 219 | View Replies]

To: hunter112
The money that the check cashing places make off of them would pay for secure methods of helping them to send pay home, and providing a flat tax on their earnings.

Heck, I read that the money the illegals are sending back to mexico is more than the "Foreign Aid" we send to the Mexican government. Well, let's stop the Foreign Aid to Fox till he stops the "migration" from his country.

Betcha that might change his mind as he then becomes one of the poor....heheheh

221 posted on 12/27/2003 11:34:03 AM PST by GetUsOutOfTheUnitedNations (This is a Republic, not a democracy, let us keep it that way)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 144 | View Replies]

To: elli1
Do you think, if the United States was attacked by an invading force, (I will disregard the illegals in this scenario) that these illegals we have been talking about would take up arms for America? Or would they just expect us to defend it for them? Would they be willing to die to defend the very freedoms we provide them?

Must have legal status (green card) to serve in the military. According to the WSJ, there are currently over 31,000 non-citizen foreign nationals serving in the US militay. Hispanics are the largest group. Here's a clip from April 4, 2003 WSJ:

You have managed to completely avoid the question. I am talking about the illegals working in restaurants, for gardeners and such. Not those in the military. You don't even want to answer the questions posed just attempt to bolster your arguement for rewarding illegals.

Keeping in mind that these soldiers are fighting for the United States in Iraq, I would imagine that the support would be even greater if the US/the North American continent were invaded. Thousands of Mexicans crossed the border & joined the US military after Pearl Harbor. I would think that if the US was invaded, then Mexico & Canada would certainly join the US to expel the invaders from the North American continent.
To answer your question--YES, absolutely YES.

I have highlighted the key point to your position. Times are different today. I don't see any evidence that these beloved illegals of yours would lift a finger to help defend America.

A large community of American & Canadian expatriates are currently living in Mexico, mostly retirees. I would fully expect that when those expatriates talk about my country, they are referring to their country of origin.

These retirees are not leaching off of Mexicans. They are living a life as a retired person not one of an illegal invader.

I lived most of my life in Oklahoma; that's where my cultural identity was formed. I've lived in Wisconsin for nearly 7 years, but I still think of myself as a southwesterner; I do not identify myself to me as a Wisconsinite.

That is not even part of the arguement. It has nothing to do with the issue at hand which is loyalty to a country that provides the freedom they are living under.

No one values living in America the same way you do. It's an individual thing. Example: Who has ever gone through school in the US w/o having written at least one essay about What America Means to Me? Read 20 of those essays, read 100 of those essays--they will all be different because we are individuals and we have individual beliefs & values.

What an inane response. You know perfectly well what I meant. If they are willing to break the law to get here and nothing is done to punish them then they begin to believe that breaking the law is the norm. These illegals have very little respect for the laws and they, by the fact that they are willing to break the law from day one, show me that they do not value the freedoms we have and thereby denegrate our society.

Do you still think that? After learning that thousands & thousands of Hispanics have served in the United States military? When Mexico has found many battles for their own independence? When untold numbers of Hispanics have died fighting for the United States/ fighting for Mexican independence? And, is not learning the significance of American holidays a very significant part of the studies to become a citizen?

Yes I do. Here, you reveal yourself for what you are. You are pro hispanic. Plain and simple. You never once talk about the Europeans, Asians, or Africans that come here illegaly. It is painfully obvious to me you are motivated by a misguided respect for criminals who are willing to subvert the very laws that grant you the freedom to live here. If you are so enamored of these hispanics then go live in Mexico where you can be surrounded by these wonderful people. As you advocate the destruction of our country I think you should leave.

222 posted on 12/27/2003 12:31:51 PM PST by raybbr
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 220 | View Replies]

To: 4.1O dana super trac pak; Missouri; txdoda; FITZ; raybbr; B4Ranch
Wow, one little "poll" thread and look what happens.

We have to win this war.

223 posted on 12/27/2003 3:40:20 PM PST by 4.1O dana super trac pak (Stop the open borders death cult)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: B4Ranch
Still working on those threads.
224 posted on 12/27/2003 3:41:54 PM PST by 4.1O dana super trac pak (Stop the open borders death cult)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 146 | View Replies]

To: 4.1O dana super trac pak
Just tyrying to get the whole truth out for all to see.

In ten years, from '89 to 97, the United States has paid out $156.7 for the direct and indirect costs of the legalized population, but has received a little more than half that back in taxes — $78 billion.

Illegal aliens are gaining a strong foothold in our lifestyle while our President refuses to bring a complete halt to this invasion. He has done a few things I am proud of (Afghanistan & Iraq) but this refusal to halt illegal immigration is without a doubt the most serious infraction to the continuance of our American way of life ever I have ever witnessed. This is first and foremost, a serious national disaster.

225 posted on 12/27/2003 5:00:55 PM PST by B4Ranch (Wave your flag, don't waive your rights!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 224 | View Replies]

Temporary? when it expires, they will disappear.
226 posted on 12/27/2003 5:02:51 PM PST by At _War_With_Liberals
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 201 | View Replies]

To: B4Ranch
Well, we can be the most kick ass third world nation on the planet someday.
227 posted on 12/27/2003 5:05:19 PM PST by 4.1O dana super trac pak (Stop the open borders death cult)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 225 | View Replies]

"I just think their labor is indespensible and given our border situation and our judiciary the most effective way to deal with them is a guest worker program as I have described."

No Sale. Sorry.

Minimizing the problem to "hardworking Mexicans just all want to work and add to our society" does not fly.

Where I live 20% of these people work. Every week I see apartments overflowing with the other leeches.
228 posted on 12/27/2003 5:10:26 PM PST by At _War_With_Liberals
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 207 | View Replies]

To: txdoda
"This *might* be a excellent move, I hope they also through in the 'discrimination' word, just for back-up. Maybe thet can SUE the gov't into enforcing ALL our laws. "

Puhlease...

No matter what the merit, this will be DOA in the courts. The govt and liberal activist judges and NGO's will GURANTEE IT.

Do you really think that cases like this are decided on merit any longer? Those days are over/
229 posted on 12/27/2003 5:15:05 PM PST by At _War_With_Liberals
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 213 | View Replies]

To: B4Ranch
"our President refuses to bring a complete halt to this invasion. He has done a few things I am proud of (Afghanistan & Iraq)"

And our President has used Saddam's capture, the alert level bump, and the holidays to quietly drop the amnesty bomb.

Once reelected and a lame duck, one can only imagine how far left he will go.
230 posted on 12/27/2003 5:22:35 PM PST by At _War_With_Liberals
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 225 | View Replies]

To: raybbr
You have managed to completely avoid the question. I am talking about the illegals working in restaurants, for gardeners and such. Not those in the military.

Well, excuse me for not understanding your poorly worded & confusing question. First you said to disregard illegals & then you framed the question about illegals. So, are you asking if illegals would engage in hand to hand combat in the parking lot of Pizza Hut in order to repel the enemy force? Are you asking if a 67 year old grandfather gardener will chase after the bad guys w/ his pitchfork? Most assuredly you aren't talking about the many Hispanics who are in the military, many of whom are not citizens but who have demonstrated that they will indeed fight for this country.

I have highlighted the key point to your position. Times are different today. I don't see any evidence that these beloved illegals of yours would lift a finger to help defend America.

From the April 2003 WSJ, since you apparently didn't read it the first time I posted it: ...And while polls say 80% of Mexicans do not support this war, the U.S. Embassy in Mexico City has been swamped with hundreds of requests to enlist in the U.S. military... You refuse to see the evidence when it's put under your nose. And what a discount you ascribe to the men who crossed the border & joined the US military after Pearl Harbor was bombed. What a discount to their character. And an attitude that character is a one shot deal and not something a person strives to instill in their children and their children into their sons & daughters. To not suppose that these men were proud of their service & that their children & grand children are not proud of that service.

These retirees are not leaching off of Mexicans. They are living a life as a retired person not one of an illegal invader.

Off topic. Another version of ad hominem attack. You're angry that Mexicans send money they earn in this country to Mexico. Why aren't you angry that Americans are spending money they earned in this country in Mexico. You, sir, are inconsistent.

That is not even part of the arguement. It has nothing to do with the issue at hand which is loyalty to a country that provides the freedom they are living under.

You don't want illegals here & then you're angry because they don't identify themselves as Americans? You should be happy. If they don't feel American, that should be an indication that they want to return to Mexico. Again, you are being inconsistent.

These illegals have very little respect for the laws and they, by the fact that they are willing to break the law from day one, show me that they do not value the freedoms we have and thereby denegrate our society.

Back to the same old thing about us disagreeing on the degree of criminality. If a guy jumps a fence & steals a chicken to feed his starving children, he's guilty of breaking at least two laws. But he's not a criminal. Has not one thing to do with freedom values & is an indictment of society rather than a denigration of it.

You are pro hispanic. Plain and simple. You never once talk about the Europeans, Asians, or Africans that come here illegaly. It is painfully obvious to me you are motivated by a misguided respect for criminals who are willing to subvert the very laws that grant you the freedom to live here. If you are so enamored of these hispanics then go live in Mexico where you can be surrounded by these wonderful people. As you advocate the destruction of our country I think you should leave.

So what? I've presented some dimensions of the situation that appear to make you uncomfortable. Have I been inaccurate? If so, please elucidate. Refute what I have said with some facts. All you've presented are feelings, impressions; make your case on something other than emotions. Quit trying to change the subject by bringing Europeans, Africans & Asians into the discussion when you know darned well that 99% of the discussion has revolved around illegal immigration from Mexico. And, FYI, I don't give a flying fig about where you think I should live. I'm an American & I'll live where I freakin' well want to live. However, since you seem particularly perturbed about where you live, I'd suggest that you would probably be much, much happier living somewhere else.

231 posted on 12/27/2003 6:24:01 PM PST by elli1
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 222 | View Replies]

To: raybbr
I work with many immigrants. I suspect, and am told, that many are illegal. Most have been here for a few years. They do not accept America as "my country". For them their time here is just a way to make money.

I'm curious what your relationship is w/ these immigrants? Just a general description like if they are co-workers, etc.

232 posted on 12/27/2003 7:09:54 PM PST by elli1
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 219 | View Replies]

To: 4.1O dana super trac pak
NO
233 posted on 12/27/2003 7:11:37 PM PST by vladog
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: elli1
So, are you asking if illegals would engage in hand to hand combat in the parking lot of Pizza Hut in order to repel the enemy force? Are you asking if a 67 year old grandfather gardener will chase after the bad guys w/ his pitchfork?

Maybe not him, but how about his sons and grandsons? Apparently you don't think even they should have to defend America, the country they are sponging off.

Most assuredly you aren't talking about the many Hispanics who are in the military, many of whom are not citizens but who have demonstrated that they will indeed fight for this country.

Some 20,000 people compared to the estimated 10 million illegals. I am so unimpressed by these numbers. Besides, they don't do it out of any sense of pride as an America. Just another attempt to become a citizen.

And what a discount you ascribe to the men who crossed the border & joined the US military after Pearl Harbor was bombed. What a discount to their character.

That was sixty years ago. Doesn't count when talking about amnesty today.

Off topic. Another version of ad hominem attack. You're angry that Mexicans send money they earn in this country to Mexico. Why aren't you angry that Americans are spending money they earned in this country in Mexico. You, sir, are inconsistent.

NOt inconsistent at all. I am still talking about illegals. Those people are not in Mexico illegally. (I know that you don't recognize them as illegals. You have your moral blinders on.)

ou don't want illegals here & then you're angry because they don't identify themselves as Americans? You should be happy. If they don't feel American, that should be an indication that they want to return to Mexico. Again, you are being inconsistent.

Your statement is illogical. It is possible to both not want them here and be disgusted by the fact that they show respect for the country that supports them while they are committing their crime of illegal invastio.

So what? I've presented some dimensions of the situation that appear to make you uncomfortable. Have I been inaccurate? If so, please elucidate.

You make me uncomfortable by your blatant disregard for the law and the sovereign right of America to protect its borders. You would have them come here unabated. That makes me uncomfortable. I know you state to the contrary but I no longer believe you.

Quit trying to change the subject by bringing Europeans, Africans & Asians into the discussion when you know darned well that 99% of the discussion has revolved around illegal immigration from Mexico.

Which is exactly my point. No one cares if those others are sent back home. It's only the hispanics that get the attention. Why? Why are we, as a nation, allowing one group of criminals a free pass and not the rest? They add nothing to our society. They are a drain and now they are here with their hands out as if we are supposed to fill it for them. They disgust me.

Just a general description like if they are co-workers, etc.

I guess they are co-workers. I am an industrial electrician. I don't see the noble hispanics that you see. I see, when the press goes down, all the whites working to get it running again while the hisps sit around on their fat butts. When I am called to a machine because they broke it, I hear, "Broke, no work." and I am left to try to figure out what is wrong with it because they can't (or won't) tell me in English what the problem is. Most of them are lazy and would have me fix all the problems with their equipment because they refuse to keep it clean, do any general maintainence or even care what happens to it. I don't have a misguided respect for hispanics. I have not, nor will I fall into the trap of believing that they are all wonderful, hard-working people. I see first hand the scum that they are. I cannot be convinced otherwise.

234 posted on 12/28/2003 3:38:47 AM PST by raybbr
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 231 | View Replies]

To: raybbr
Maybe not him, but how about his sons and grandsons? Apparently you don't think even they should have to defend America, the country they are sponging off.

OK--Here you're changing the question. I thought you wanted to know would they fight to defend America. Now you're asking should they have to to defend America. Give me an example of the sort of defense situation you're thinking and then wait for me to answer the question before coming to conclusions about what I think. OK? Fair?

Some 20,000 people compared to the estimated 10 million illegals. I am so unimpressed by these numbers.

You're trying to compare 20,000 people who have legal immigrant status and are eligible to and are serving in the military with 10 million people who are barred from serving in the military. This is like saying that out of all the people under the age of 19 in this country, you're unimpressed by the number of 13 year olds who are serving in the military. It's neither a fair nor meaningful comparison. You aren't giving consideration to the numbers of people in that 10 million who would serve in the military if given the opportunity, nor consideration to the numbers who would like to but cannot because they don't meet other basic eligibilty requirements such as having a high school diploma (correct me if I'm wrong about this now being a reqirement.)

That was sixty years ago. Doesn't count when talking about amnesty today.

The Pearl Harbor example wasn't given in support of anmesty. It was given as an historical example of Mexicans willing to defend America...or, probably more precisely, willing to defend North America and was quite apropo to your hypotheical scenario of the United States being invaded by some unknown foreign source, presumably from another continent. ;)

NOt inconsistent at all. I am still talking about illegals.

You were talking about illegals sending money back to Mexico (while still residing in the US and spending at least some of the money they earn here in this country). I used the expatriate community who earned their money in the US & Canada as an example of a group of people who earned their money in the US & Canada & who are now making nearly all of their current expenditures in Mexico. WE were talking about MONEY and where it is being spent.

It is possible to both not want them here and be disgusted by the fact that they show respect for the country that supports them while they are committing their crime of illegal invastio.

We mostly agree on this point although I don't consider the mere fact of illegal entry in & of itself to be a manisfestation of disrespect to the degree that you do. (which is the word you I think you meant to type.

You make me uncomfortable by your blatant disregard for the law and the sovereign right of America to protect its borders. You would have them come here unabated. That makes me uncomfortable. I know you state to the contrary but I no longer believe you.

NO, I would not have them come here unabated. America most certainly has the right to protect its borders. Moreover, I think it is the duty of the federal government to protect the borders & I am very angry that such a lousy job is being done. The reality of the situation is that the borders are being flooded w/ people we know nothing about & who we have no means of tracking. I'm arguing for steps to do more about that. I'm arguing for giving some sort of legal status to workers. I'm against automatically confering citizenship status to babies born in this country to illegal parents--it's these new citizen babies/ children who are the recipients of a large share of the welfare largesse going to the illegal community. I believe that it is impossible to absolutely stop the entry of illegal aliens across our southern border, but that it is possible to change some of the policies that entice them across the border.

Which is exactly my point. No one cares if those others are sent back home. It's only the hispanics that get the attention. Why?

Damned good question. For example, most of the illegals who were rounded up who were working for the contractor cleaning Wal-Marts were eastern Europeans. I was flabberghasted at the numbers of people who assumed that the illegals were Hispanics or just launched into diatribes about Mexicans & ignored what should have been a real eye-opener about illegal aliens from waaaaaay across the ocean. I want to know lots more about how they got here, who facilitated it, what countries they passed thru....

Most of them are lazy and would have me fix all the problems with their equipment because they refuse to keep it clean, do any general maintainence or even care what happens to it.

That sounds exactly like the crew at McDonald's where my son worked this past summer & there wasn't a Hispanic (all were Caucasion) amongst them. True, most were teenagers, but their behavior on that job sure as hell isn't a good indication of their future performance. More than that, some of them were actually destructive--slices of cheese into the toaster, using the ketchup gun in a game of paintball on the line. A young (20 or so) assistant manager (Caucasion) who made repeated sexually inappropriate remarks about the mothers of the male teenagers who were working there (and laughed about the ketchup gun incident while it was happening in his presence.)

Obviously, many of those you describe have little or no mechanical sense. But you have to keep in mind that these people come here from a third world country and haven't had nearly the degree of exposure to machinery that many Americans here do. And it's just a fact that no matter how much exposure people have, some of them are total mechanical idiots. My 13 YO son can barely figure out which end of the cord goes into the outlet, but I need to be well rested if I plan to engage him in a game of mental math.

Lazy, incompetent, unwilling to learn lukewarm bodies should be fired and replaced. Here is a situation where the idea of work permits for foreign workers figures into the equation. Work permits should hinge on the ability to perform & hold down a job.

235 posted on 12/28/2003 11:07:27 AM PST by elli1
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 234 | View Replies]

To: 4.1O dana super trac pak
NO, period!
236 posted on 12/28/2003 11:51:55 AM PST by RJS1950
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: elli1
OK--Here you're changing the question. I thought you wanted to know would they fight to defend America. Now you're asking should they have to to defend America. Give me an example of the sort of defense situation you're thinking and then wait for me to answer the question before coming to conclusions about what I think. OK? Fair?

This is really getting tedious. You know perfectly well what I mean.

You aren't giving consideration to the numbers of people in that 10 million who would serve in the military if given the opportunity, nor consideration to the numbers who would like to but cannot because they don't meet other basic eligibilty requirements such as having a high school diploma (correct me if I'm wrong about this now being a reqirement.

Please stop acting as if I am being disingenous. Too bad if they are too stupid to get a high shcool diploma.

...or, probably more precisely, willing to defend North America...

Here, once again, your true loyalty is revealed. You see North America as one nation and would have the borders opened to all these slugs from the south of the our border.

WE were talking about MONEY and where it is being spent.

No, we were not. I was talking about the drain of money going to Mexico and points south while the advocates of illegals, like yourself, are trying to convince us that they contribute to our society. Quite a big difference in reality and what you would like us to see.

For example, most of the illegals who were rounded up who were working for the contractor cleaning Wal-Marts were eastern Europeans.

Shewairy did say the workers came from 18 nations and included 90 people from Mexico, 35 from the Czech Republic, 22 from Mongolia and 20 from Brazil. The government initially said it had arrested about 300 people, but Shewairy said Friday the number turned out to be lower. From here.

You see how you exagerate? The fact is that most of the people arrested were hispanic. You just can't accept the fact that these illegals are thieves and criminals.

Obviously, many of those you describe have little or no mechanical sense. But you have to keep in mind that these people come here from a third world country and haven't had nearly the degree of exposure to machinery that many Americans here do. And it's just a fact that no matter how much exposure people have, some of them are total mechanical idiots. My 13 YO son can barely figure out which end of the cord goes into the outlet, but I need to be well rested if I plan to engage him in a game of mental math.

It has nothing to do with mechanical aptitude. They are stupid and lazy. They break the machine to stop working. They think I can't tell this. I can. I have 25 years of experience figuring out why something doesn't work. It's just too bad they don't have this in their own country. Stop them from coming into ours illegally. Send them all back. They are drain on our society.

237 posted on 12/28/2003 2:46:10 PM PST by raybbr
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 235 | View Replies]

To: raybbr
You know perfectly well what I mean.

I do not. I don't pretend to be clairvoyant.

Too bad if they are too stupid to get a high shcool diploma.

I don't assume that someone is stupid based on their lack of formal education. To make that assumption reeks of intellectual arrogance.

Here, once again, your true loyalty is revealed. You see North America as one nation and would have the borders opened to all these slugs from the south of the our border.

Not a very perceptive remark. Just because Mexicans crossed the border & enlisted in the US military after Pearl Harbor doesn't prove to me that they were motivated to do so out of loyalty to the United States. I considered that they viewed the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor as an attack on North America....that the Japanese might very well decide to bomb the Long Beach naval yard or San Diego, that they envisioned a possible Japanese invasion of California or the Baja peninsula, that there was a sizeable Hispanic community in California, some of whom were probably relatives & that if the Japanese decided to occupy the United States, that the Japanese would likely not stop at the Rio Grande River & would continue to march south and occupy Mexico. The enemy of my neighbor is my enemy. You don't need even a high school diploma to figure that out; all you need is a little common sense & a freaking map.

I was talking about the drain of money going to Mexico and points south...

And so was I. You're angry about it but you're only angry when it's Hispanics sending American dollars back to Mexico. Those dollars that go to Mexico don't hit a brick wall & disintegrate. Mexico is our second largest trading partner and Mexico has approx. 1/3 the population of the US. In 200l Mexico exports to the US totaled $131.43 billion & Mexico imports from the US totaled $113.7 billion. It's pretty obvious that some of those dollars are making a round trip.

Shewairy did say the workers came from 18 nations and included 90 people from Mexico, 35 from the Czech Republic, 22 from Mongolia and 20 from Brazil. The government initially said it had arrested about 300 people, but Shewairy said Friday the number turned out to be lower.

Thank you for the link. I had not read that article & I stand corrected. Several articles, all of the ones that I had read, stated that those rounded up were mainly Eastern Europeans. I was agreeing with you (about other than Hispanic illegal aliens not being the subject of much discussion) & did not make an intentional nor deliberate exaggeration. Here's one article that states (erroneously apparently) that those rounded up were mainly eastern Europeans: http://www.softcom.net/webnews/wed/bp/Qus-walmart-immigrants.RKti_DN4.html WSJ (within the last 3 weeks or so, posted here at Free Republic) also did an indepth piece about the shady contractor situation & discusses the eastern Europeans.

It has nothing to do with mechanical aptitude. They are stupid and lazy. They break the machine to stop working. They think I can't tell this. I can. I have 25 years of experience figuring out why something doesn't work. It's just too bad they don't have this in their own country. Stop them from coming into ours illegally. Send them all back. They are drain on our society.

Doesn't speak well for the employer who hired them & keeps them on the payroll, does it? The employer is stupid and apparently too lazy to find better workers. The American employer is hiring stupid & lazy illegals. Why doesn't the employer at least hire stupid & lazy American employees? Those aren't hard to find either. Why are you so angry w/ illegals working in this country when it's Americans who are hiring them & making it possible for them to work here in the first place? Your anger is misplaced.

Send them all back

How? What's your plan on how to accomplish this? How do you plan to keep others from taking their place? How do you plan to prevent them from returning? For that matter, how the hell do you plan to find all 10 million of them? How many new police & border patrol hires do you estimate we will need? How much do you estimate it will cost to find 10 million people, to deport 10 million people, to refind them, to re-deport them? How do you plan to make the border leak-proof? You don't like my plan. Present your plan and let us examine it.

238 posted on 12/28/2003 11:44:22 PM PST by elli1
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 237 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100101-150151-200201-238 last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson