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Workers Find Signs Of 7,500-Year-Old Civilization While Building Water Plant (Mass.)
Herald Tribune ^ | 1-23-2004 | AP

Posted on 01/23/2004 12:33:33 PM PST by blam

Workers find signs of 7,500-year-old civilization while building water plant

The Associated Press

NORWELL, Mass. -- The discovery of a possible American Indian settlement as much as 7,500 years old has halted work on a new water treatment plant.

Workers have found about 38 tools and stone chips used for making and repairing tools, as well as a hearth and a storage pit, at the site on South Street near Third Herring Brook.

Lauren J. Cook, senior archaeologist on the team that surveyed the area, said it was unusual to find "features" of civilizations, like the hearth and the stone pit, so early in their survey.

"The site has, as we say, integrity. There are portions of the site beneath the surface that are not disturbed," Cook told The Patriot Ledger of Quincy. "It's pretty clear to us that one thing this site offers, because of the hearth, the possibility of radiocarbon dating, which can help to better define the period."

The tools are characteristic of the Late Archaic and Middle Archaic periods of the Holocene Epoch, and are between 3,000 to 7,500 years old, Cook said.

Artifacts from the Late Archaic period have been found in Norwell before.

"It was quite a thrill to touch and handle something a human hand had been holding 7,000 years ago in his or her hand," said Norwell water superintendent John McInnis, who was at the site when the artifacts were removed.

McInnis said that the treatment plant would be moved to another water department-owned site nearby.

Archaeologists will excavate some portions of the new site, as well as continue their surveys on the original site. If they uncover more artifacts at the original site, the Massachusetts Historical Commission could request a complete study.

The $7.2 million water system improvement project, that includes the plant and a new well field, would increase water production during periods of high demand.


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 500; 7; archaeology; civilizationmass; clovis; find; ggg; godsgravesglyphs; history; preclovis; precolumbian; workers
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Keep in mind that there weren't any American Indians/Native Americans (As we know them today) here any earlier than 6,000 years ago.

I understand the sensation of handling something that old. I have some 7,000 year old wood. In fact, I have so much that I'm gonna burn some of it this weekend. (It's in my way)

1 posted on 01/23/2004 12:33:34 PM PST by blam
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To: farmfriend; RightWhale; shamusotoole
Ping. (These are probably the ancient folks in that area that have the word 'red' in their name. Right now I can't remember and it's time for my nap. Maybe it's 'Red-Paint' people)
2 posted on 01/23/2004 12:36:37 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
Workers find signs of 7,500-year-old civilization. . .

. . . along with a pictograph of Ted Kennedy.

3 posted on 01/23/2004 12:37:20 PM PST by P8riot (A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.)
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To: blam
Red Paint People
4 posted on 01/23/2004 12:38:30 PM PST by blam
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To: P8riot
Chief "He who drinks and Sluts Around"
5 posted on 01/23/2004 12:38:58 PM PST by KantianBurke (2+2 does NOT equal 5)
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To: blam
I'm not sure I would agree that the presence of a hearth and a stone pit means that there was what we would call a "civilization" present. Anybody know when these things first appeared in the Old World?
6 posted on 01/23/2004 12:39:07 PM PST by aristeides
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To: blam
If they can link this site to the Vikings, would this be Norwegian wood?
7 posted on 01/23/2004 12:39:20 PM PST by Verginius Rufus
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To: blam
Signs of civilization? A few stone chipped tools? Sheesh, even the Arabs show more signs of civilization (barely, though).
8 posted on 01/23/2004 12:39:27 PM PST by LenS
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To: blam
You mean.....gulp....they were.....gulp.....IMMIGRANTS???

Damn, we should have closed the border!!!!
9 posted on 01/23/2004 12:40:36 PM PST by Lokibob
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To: KantianBurke
Greetings from another Virginia Freeper
10 posted on 01/23/2004 12:40:41 PM PST by P8riot (A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.)
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To: blam
"Keep in mind that there weren't any American Indians/Native Americans (As we know them today) here any earlier than 6,000 years ago."

Funny. I have some Chumash artifacts in my collection that date back to almost 8000 years. Perhaps you are incorrect.
11 posted on 01/23/2004 12:41:52 PM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: Verginius Rufus
. . . , would this be Norwegian wood?

Or maybe Norwoojin weed.

12 posted on 01/23/2004 12:42:04 PM PST by P8riot (A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.)
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To: blam
I have a rock I found on a northern California beach. It is about 8 inches square.

It caught my eye because it was unlike any other rock on the beach. The beach was comprised of granite eggs. Beach tumbled stones that take on an egg like shape.

I picked up the rock and on one of its faces is the symbol Pi in perfect relief.

It is an absolutly amazing freak of nature, or ?
13 posted on 01/23/2004 12:42:38 PM PST by antaresequity
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To: blam
America BC And Even Earlier (Red Paint People)

""Decades ago, Gutorn Gjessing pointed out that the identical [Red Paint] culture was found in Norway. No one paid much attention to that, but more recent carbon-14 dating has shown that the identical cultures had identical dates, and people began to pay more attention. It is now admitted that this is a high latitude culture that obviously sailed the stormy north Atlantic and stretched from northwest Europe over to America. It seemingly extends from along the Atlantic coast of Europe to America and in America from the high latitudes of Labrador down into New York state. "

14 posted on 01/23/2004 12:42:39 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
A choice between a 7000 year old garbage dump or brand new spanking water treatment facility. I'm going out on a limb on this one, but I'd rather have the water treatment facility.

Oh look a rock! No, no, no, that's not a rock that was an implement used in some type of pre-columbian religious ceremony.
15 posted on 01/23/2004 12:45:22 PM PST by RunningJoke
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To: MineralMan; Coyoteman
"Funny. I have some Chumash artifacts in my collection that date back to almost 8000 years. Perhaps you are incorrect."

Nah.

Maybe we can get FReeper Coyoteman to check-in on the subject. I believe he has done studies in this area.

16 posted on 01/23/2004 12:49:57 PM PST by blam
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To: antaresequity
Take it to a museum, get an expert to certify its age & manmade origin, sell it on E-bay or Sothebys, retire.
17 posted on 01/23/2004 12:51:41 PM PST by Nataku X (`)
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To: blam
wasn't the kennewick man found in washington about 7500 years old.
18 posted on 01/23/2004 12:53:29 PM PST by camas
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To: blam
Why would Kennedy want a water plant in Mass? If the headline said distillery, I might have read it.
19 posted on 01/23/2004 12:54:10 PM PST by cynicom
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To: aristeides
May be these are their southern relatives, huh?

European DNA Found In 7,-8,000 Year Old Skeleton In Florida (Windover)

20 posted on 01/23/2004 12:54:17 PM PST by blam
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To: MineralMan
Funny. I have some Chumash artifacts in my collection that date back to almost 8000 years

I think the issue here is whether the oldest inhabitants of the continent were American Indians. Kennewick Man wasn't American Indian, notwithstanding the Bush Administration's siding with Indians to prevent further scientific study.

21 posted on 01/23/2004 12:56:06 PM PST by Right Wing Professor
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To: camas
"wasn't the kennewick man found in washington about 7500 years old."

No. He was 9,300 years old and 'Spirit Cave Man' (the oldest mummy in America) was 9,400 years old. (They look very similar)

Arlington Springs Woman is the oldest human skeleton ever found in the Americas.

22 posted on 01/23/2004 12:57:49 PM PST by blam
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To: camas
BTW I know the guys who found Kennewick man. They were drunk and trying to sneak into the hydroplane races when they found him.
23 posted on 01/23/2004 12:58:04 PM PST by jtminton (2Timothy 4:2)
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To: Right Wing Professor
"notwithstanding the Bush Administration's siding with Indians to prevent further scientific study."

Nope, that was the Clinton administration and the court ruled in favor of the scientists. It is presentlt back in court on appeal. (Kennewick Man)

24 posted on 01/23/2004 12:59:43 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
Don't you love it when they find a civilization?
25 posted on 01/23/2004 1:00:20 PM PST by Graymatter
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To: blam; *Gods, Graves, Glyphs; A.J.Armitage; abner; Alas Babylon!; ameribbean expat; Andyman; ...
Gods, Graves, Glyphs
List for articles regarding early civilizations , life of all forms, - dinosaurs - etc.

Let me know if you wish to be added or removed from this ping list.

26 posted on 01/23/2004 1:01:17 PM PST by farmfriend ( Isaiah 55:10,11)
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To: Verginius Rufus
Beatles's Lyrics - Norwegian Wood

I once had a girl, or should I say, she once had me.
She showed me her room, isn’t it good, norwegian wood?

She asked me to stay and she told me to sit anywhere,
So I looked around and I noticed there wasn’t a chair.

I sat on a rug, biding my time, drinking her wine.
We talked until two and then she said, "it’s time for bed".

She told me she worked in the morning and started to laugh.
I told her I didn’t and crawled off to sleep in the bath.

And when I awoke I was alone, this bird had flown.
So I lit a fire, isn’t it good, norwegian wood.

27 posted on 01/23/2004 1:02:02 PM PST by BenLurkin (Socialism is Slavery)
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To: Graymatter
"Don't you love it when they find a civilization?"

I do. We found one earlier this week off the coast of India...I think it was 7,500 years old too.

28 posted on 01/23/2004 1:02:09 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
Nope, that was the Clinton administration and the court ruled in favor of the scientists. It is presentlt back in court on appeal. (Kennewick Man)

Nope, the Bush administration filed a brief in the appeal claiming the remains were culturally unaffiliated but still Native American and thus covered by NAGPRA.

As the Department of Justice states in their July 1 response brief to the 9th Circuit, their current position is that these remains are without a qualified claimant. The agencies now argue that the remains should be found to be Native American, paving the way to repatriate them under NAGPRA's section dealing with unidentified remains. They fail to mention to the Court the fact that the Department of the Interior has not managed to finalize regulations on how to handle unidentified remains.

It's on my list of ten reasons why I won't be voting for GWB in 2004.

29 posted on 01/23/2004 1:06:49 PM PST by Right Wing Professor
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To: blam
I am a direct descendant of this 7,500 year old tribe and the damn Indians tribes need to give back my land they stole from my ancestors. Especially Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun Casinos.
30 posted on 01/23/2004 1:07:09 PM PST by N. Theknow (Be a glowworm, a glowworm's never glum, cuz how can you be grumpy when the sun shines out your bum.)
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To: blam
you are lagging by about 2000 years, maybe more. I believe the early date is about 10,000 years.
31 posted on 01/23/2004 1:07:39 PM PST by fish hawk
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To: Nakatu X
I have a scraping tool, found it on Ft. Meade grounds about 20 years ago (under a couple inches of dirt), cut from unimpressive quartz but *perfectly* sculpted for the human hand, and a reasonably sharp scraping edge.

No one should dig around Ft. Meade, lots of unexploded ordnance including a full, unused belt of .50 cal uncovered the same day I found the scraper.

32 posted on 01/23/2004 1:09:51 PM PST by angkor
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To: blam
YEC INTREP - ARCHAEOLOGY
33 posted on 01/23/2004 1:15:32 PM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: blam
I think the term "civilization" is not correct here.
34 posted on 01/23/2004 1:18:03 PM PST by Little Ray (Why settle for a Lesser Evil? Cthuhlu for President!)
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To: Little Ray
I think the term "civilization" is not correct here.

civ·i·li·za·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sv-l-zshn) n.

(1)An advanced state of intellectual, cultural, and material development in human society, marked by progress in the arts and sciences, the extensive use of record-keeping, including writing, and the appearance of complex political and social institutions.

(2)The type of culture and society developed by a particular nation or region or in a particular epoch: Mayan civilization; the civilization of ancient Rome.

(3)The act or process of civilizing or reaching a civilized state.

(4)Cultural or intellectual refinement; good taste.

(5)Modern society with its conveniences: returned to civilization after camping in the mountains.

I think (2) might apply.

35 posted on 01/23/2004 1:28:24 PM PST by Modernman ("The details of my life are quite inconsequential...." - Dr. Evil)
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To: antaresequity
I handled a rock the other day from Illinois about the size of a dinner plate, slate. Around the edge were letters in the old Phoenician dialect. You know, that place just north of Israel, 3500 years ago? The fellow who showed me can translate that stuff. He knows where there are 4 more of them. They were left in caves adjacent to river junctions and they tell the destinations up the different channels.

Talk about a shiver.
36 posted on 01/23/2004 1:30:16 PM PST by Sundog (Cheers.)
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To: blam
"It was quite a thrill to touch and handle something a human hand had been holding 7,000 years ago in his or her hand," said Norwell

Wash your hands Norwell, they didn't have tp!

37 posted on 01/23/2004 1:32:20 PM PST by Dead Dog
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To: blam
The Clovis culture is at least 11,000 years old.
38 posted on 01/23/2004 1:33:34 PM PST by Junior (Some people follow their dreams. Others hunt theirs down and beat them mercilessly into submission)
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To: Modernman
You are right.
To me, civilization implies certain things, notably cites. The Harrappans had a civilization. The plains and woodland Indians did not - they had a culture. That is what I was thinking here.

Thanks.
39 posted on 01/23/2004 1:40:09 PM PST by Little Ray (Why settle for a Lesser Evil? Cthuhlu for President!)
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To: blam
I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the 9-ft. tall human(oid)s dressed in battle armor that were dug up in the mounds in Ohio. Probably just an oversight.
40 posted on 01/23/2004 1:45:19 PM PST by Indrid Cold (He thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.)
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To: antaresequity
I have a rock I found on a northern California beach. It is about 8 inches square.

I picked up the rock and on one of its faces is the symbol Pi in perfect relief.

If manmade, it would be a Pi art square.

41 posted on 01/23/2004 2:18:25 PM PST by Mackey ("Ok, I've looked at this ancient stuff...aintcha got anything fresher?")
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To: blam
Since Mass is the state of the big dig, couldn't the stone tools have been left at the job site by some of the first union employees there.
42 posted on 01/23/2004 2:41:19 PM PST by brooklin
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To: antaresequity
I was wondering where I dropped that thing. I made it in shop class, shortly after learning about Pi in math class.
43 posted on 01/23/2004 2:53:16 PM PST by Some hope remaining.
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To: Indrid Cold
Huh?
44 posted on 01/23/2004 2:59:00 PM PST by Some hope remaining.
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To: Indrid Cold
Oh, ok. http://www.stevequayle.com/Giants/N.Am/Giants.N.Am2.html#Anchor-Ohio-5677
45 posted on 01/23/2004 3:11:54 PM PST by Some hope remaining.
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To: blam
I have some 7,000 year old wood.

Have you talked to a urologist? :)

46 posted on 01/23/2004 3:20:41 PM PST by spodefly (This is my tagline. There are many like it, but this one is mine.)
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To: Right Wing Professor
From Your link:

"The Oregon District Court found the DOI's final determination arbitrary and ruled in favor of the scientists in August 2002."

"So what is their appeals strategy? As the Department of Justice states in their July 1 response brief to the 9th Circuit, their current position is that these remains are without a qualified claimant. The agencies now argue that the remains should be found to be Native American, paving the way to repatriate them under NAGPRA's section dealing with unidentified remains. They fail to mention to the Court the fact that the Department of the Interior has not managed to finalize regulations on how to handle unidentified remains. NAGPRA was enacted nearly 13 years ago in 1990."

"In the meantime, the agency shell game continues. The government's appeal focuses on the Court's rejection of agency interpretation of the term "Native American". What will happen to the scientists' original complaint that the agencies' decision-making process was flawed? The legal remedy rests with the 9th Circuit."

47 posted on 01/23/2004 3:26:43 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
"Workers find signs of 7,500-year-old civilization while building water plant"

Great . . . but, is the parrot talking yet???
48 posted on 01/23/2004 3:29:10 PM PST by BluSky (“Don’t make me come down there.”)
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To: fish hawk
"you are lagging by about 2000 years, maybe more. I believe the early date is about 10,000 years."

Me lagging? I don't think so.

Calico: A 200,000-Year-Old Site in The Americas?

49 posted on 01/23/2004 3:32:22 PM PST by blam
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To: Junior
"The Clovis culture is at least 11,000 years old."

Immigrants From The Other Side (Clovis Is Solutrean?)

50 posted on 01/23/2004 3:36:37 PM PST by blam
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