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Soviet Army fought UFOs
Pravda ^ | 1.23.04 | Alexander Dremin

Posted on 01/23/2004 3:00:06 PM PST by mhking

Soviet military encountered many UFOs, maybe for this reason in the end of the 60s a secret laboratory of researching "flying objects" was created in the USSR.

UFO researchers often blame the military of hiding the cases of alien rockets and disseminating false information of UFO. Army officers are not interested in the disputes about alien civilizations, they are interested in knowing what impact UFO can impose to military equipment and personnel.

1947. Antiaircraft guns of Transcaucasian Military District fired on the flying cigar-shaped object which came from the side of the Turkish border. The object"s flying altitude was below 4,000 meters, and the guns were capable of reaching a target at the altitudes up to 12,000 meters, but that time the fire made no harm to the "cigar". Then the cigar increased its speed and flew away over the mountains.

This incident could cause much trouble, because earlier the border guards and military ships monitoring service missed this target. Then the military was unable to trace this flying object over the country"s territory. The Border District command ignored and ordered the monitors not to disclose the information that the object reached a speed up to 2000 kilometers per hour.

Similar case took place in 1984 in Turkestan Military District. Near the city of Astrakhan air-defense system marked the ball-shaped object flying at the altitude of 2000 meters along the Caspian seashore in the direction of the state border. The object did not respond to the inquiry made by the military on the radio. Two fighter-planes took off, but they were unable to bring the object down. After being under fire, the object descended up to 100 meters, and at this low altitude the planes were unable to continue firing. Despite being fired at, the object was having a regular speed. The ball passed over several military units, which allowed to make its photo. Near the city of Krasnoyarsk the military tried to bring the object down with the helicopter.

However, it quickly increased its altitude so that the helicopter could not reach it. After firing all its supply of shells, the helicopter landed, and the ball abruptly flew in the direction of the sea and disappeared from the radar screens.

In the same area the similar scenario case happened later. The object having the shape of cylinder demonstrated its invulnerability.>

Such a demonstration could be the purpose of its flight, because this UFO was having a speed of 100 kilometers per hour.

One can blame the military of inhuman actions on bringing down flying objects. But what can they do if the object was moving in the direction of the state border and they had the order to destroy such objects?

In 1985 near the town of Krasnovodsk the radar station under the command of Captain Valuev registered the disc-shaped object in size of 1,000 meters! The object was immovable, and some time later a small disc in size of 5 meters flew out of it and then landed on Krasnovodskaya spit. Patrol boats rushed to that area, but when they reached the distance of 100 meters from the object, it took off and flew one kilometer away. This happened five times. Then the object flew up at a huge speed, reached the bigger disc, which finally flew away spaceward.

In the end of the 60s a secret laboratory of researching "flying objects" was created in the USSR. Among the laboratory"s tasks was researching anti-gravitation, but the research results were made secret. Its testing area was near the town of Kapustin Yar on purpose. In the end of June of 1971 the military could see over this area a black cigar-shaped flying object floating under the clouds at the altitude of 800 meters. The object was 25 meters long and had about 3 meters in diameter. It had neither stabilizers nor wings nor engines and was moving at the speed of 150 kilometers per hour producing no noise.

In 1978 ЦНДС Soviet Ministry of Defense accepted Network MO program. Special military unit in the town of Mytishi was in charge of collecting data, and newly established "space troops" were designated to fight possible threat from space.

In the beginning of August 1987 five soldiers of Leningrad Military District went to the North of Karelia region on a special mission. They were required to guard the object of unknown origin. It was found on the territory of another military unit near the town of Vyborg. The item was 14 meters long, 4 meters wide, 2.5 meters high. The object had neither doors no hatches, and all attempts to open its hull were unsuccessful. The military tried to break off some object parts, but were only able to take some rods from its stern. In the end of September the object disappeared from the hangar without leaving a trace.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; Russia
KEYWORDS: alien; aliens; pravda; sovietunion; tinfoil; ufo; ufos; unidentifiedcheese; ussr; whereisartbell
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To: _Jim
Glad to provide so much merriment for you.

It's impressive that you tow the ruling elite's . . . or perhaps the puppet masters'

PARTY LINE

so faithfully.

It must make for a matched set with your merriment.
51 posted on 01/23/2004 7:43:03 PM PST by Quix (Choose this day whom U will serve: Shrillery & demonic goons or The King of Kings and Lord of Lords)
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To: Momaw Nadon
Addendum, the report titled:

   REPORT OF AIR FORCE RESEARCH REGARDING THE
   "ROSWELL INCIDENT"
   July 1994

From: www.af.mil/lib/roswell.html

The following from the EXECUTIVE SUMMARY is excerpted from the report for convenience of readers and lurkers on FR. Consult the link above for the full report.

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

The "Roswell Incident" refers to an event that supposedly happened in July, 1947, wherein the Army Air Forces (AAF) allegedly recovered remains of a crashed "flying disc" near Roswell, New Mexico.

In February, 1994, the General Accounting Office (GAO), acting on the request of a New Mexico Congressman, initiated an audit to attempt to locate records of such an incident and to determine if records regarding it were properly handled.

Although the GAO effort was to look at a number of government agencies, the apparent focus was on the Air Force. SAF/AAZ , as the Central Point of Contact for the GAO in this matter, initiated a systematic search of current Air Force offices as well as numerous archives and records centers that might help explain this matter. Research revealed that the "Roswell Incident" was not even considered a UFO event until the 1978-1980 time frame. Prior to that, the incident was dismissed because the AAF originally identified the debris recovered as being that of a weather balloon.

Subsequently, various authors wrote a number of books claiming that, not only was debris from an alien spacecraft recovered, but also the bodies of the craft's alien occupants. These claims continue to evolve today and the Air Force is now routinely accused of engaging in a "cover-up" of this supposed event.

Consequently, efforts were intensified by Air Force researchers at numerous locations where records for the period in question were stored.

The records reviewed did not reveal any increase in operations, security, or any other activity in July, 1947, that indicated any such unusual event may have occurred.

Records were located and thoroughly explored concerning a then-TOP SECRET balloon project, designed to attempt to monitor Soviet nuclear tests, known as Project Mogul.

Additionally, several surviving project personnel were located and interviewed, as was the only surviving person who recovered debris from the original Roswell site in 1947, and the former officer who initially identified the wreckage as a balloon. Comparison of all information developed or obtained indicated that the material recovered near Roswell was consistent with a balloon device and most likely from one of the Mogul balloons that had not been previously recovered. Air Force research efforts did not disclose any records of the recovery of any "alien" bodies or extraterrestrial materials.


52 posted on 01/23/2004 7:47:45 PM PST by _Jim ( <--- Ann Coulter speaks on gutless Liberals (RealAudio files))
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To: _Jim
Aha! You're part of the coverup conspiracy too! Your big mistake was the "flying saucer" reference. It should have been "flying disc", keeping with historical accuracy.

Yet another pitiful attempt at disinformation.

53 posted on 01/23/2004 7:54:09 PM PST by Calvin Locke
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To: _Jim
"The records reviewed did not reveal any increase in operations, security, or any other activity in July, 1947, that indicated any such unusual event may have occurred."



Would this be a record that an unusual event may have occured?

54 posted on 01/23/2004 7:58:24 PM PST by Momaw Nadon (Goals for 2004: Re-elect President Bush, over 60 Republicans in the Senate, and a Republican House.)
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To: Quix
We shall see.

Supposedly there are 3-5 DIFFERENT environmentally clean, virtually free sources of energy that we've kept under wraps for decades.

We shall see.

LOL!

The *true* believers will never be dissuaded by actual 'science', so, why even try.

To date there is not even the slightest inkling coming out of the laboratory that hints at 'free energy' being a possibility OTHERWISE the biggies would SURELY be interested!

The CLOSEST we get is splitting ('fission' or 'joining' as in 'fusion') the atom and reaping a HUGE amount of energy - with the attendant side effects that result.

To date, it's been the hucksters who have reaped 'free energy' from nonscientific investors who can be easily 'horn swaggled' JUST as alchemists did when convincing 'investors' they could turn lead into GOLD!

"I'll bet you a case of beer there is no working overunity device that is testable by others or for sale as an operating unit, a kit, or working plans to build it yourself," said Jerry W. Decker, operator of KeelyNet, a site devoted to developments in free energy -- a field Decker has been tracking for 30 years.
From: www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,11898,00.html
55 posted on 01/23/2004 8:09:08 PM PST by _Jim ( <--- Ann Coulter speaks on gutless Liberals (RealAudio files))
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To: Momaw Nadon
Would this be a record that an unusual event may have occured?

DID you believe 'the press' when they lauded Howie Dean for a week or two before the Iowa caucuses?

OF COURSE you went to the website I listed AND READ accounts by persons that were around at that time - right?

56 posted on 01/23/2004 8:13:02 PM PST by _Jim ( <--- Ann Coulter speaks on gutless Liberals (RealAudio files))
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To: Momaw Nadon
ALSO reported in that same paper:
The July 9 edition of the paper noted that Brigadier General Roger Ramey, Commander of the Eighth Air Force at Forth Worth, Texas, stated that upon examination the debris recovered by Marcel was determined to be a weather balloon. The wreckage was described as a "..bundle of tinfoil, broken wood beams, and rubber remnants of a balloon...... The additional story of the "harassed rancher" identified him as W.W. Brazel of Lincoln County, New Mexico. He claimed that he and his son, Vemon, found the material on June 14, 1947, <>when they "came upon a large area of bright wreckage made up of rubber strips, tinfoil, a rather tough paper, and sticks."

He picked up some of the debris on July 4 and ."..the next day he first heard about the flying discs and wondered if what he had found might have been the remnants of one of these." Brazel subsequently went to Roswell on July 7 and contacted the Sheriff, who apparently notified Major Marcel. Major Marcel and "a man in plain clothes" then accompanied Brazel home to pick up the rest of the pieces. The article further related that Brazel thought that the material:

"..might have been as large as a table top. The balloon which held it up, if that is how it worked, must have been about 12 feet long, he felt, measuring the distance by the size of the room in which he sat. The rubber was smoky gray in color and scattered over an area about 200 yards in diameter. When the debris was gathered up the tinfoil, paper, tape, and sticks made a bundle about three feet long and 7 or 8 inches thick, while the rubber made a bundle about 18 or 20 inches long and about 8 inches thick. In all, he estimated, the entire lot would have weighed maybe five pounds. There was no sign of any metal in the area which night have been used for an engine and no sign of any propellers of any kind. Although at least one paper fin had been glued onto some of the tinfoil. There were no words to be found anywhere on the instrument although there were letters on some of the parts. Considerable scotch tape and some tape with flowers printed upon it had been used in the construction. No string or wire were to be found but there were some eyelets in the paper to indicate that some sort of attachment may have been used. Brazel said that he had previously found two weather balloons on the ranch, but that what he found this time did not in any way resemble either of these."
"UFOs" made of "tinfoil, paper, tape, and sticks".

I'm *sure* they were capable of a) interstellar travel at light speed and b) supersonic flight within the atmosphere!

LOL!

57 posted on 01/23/2004 8:24:58 PM PST by _Jim ( <--- Ann Coulter speaks on gutless Liberals (RealAudio files))
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To: mhking
Soviet military encountered many UFOs...

"Stories" of incursions -- we've got to get Tancredo working on this.

58 posted on 01/23/2004 8:28:07 PM PST by FreeReign
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To: _Jim
Dr Stephen Greer and company have a corp and a machine that is making the rounds of various testing laboratories currently. Initial reports are incredibly positive.

He has also more or less publically staked his lifeblood as well as quit practicing medicine for supposedly a couple of years to insure that this is not sidelined, bought out, covered up or sabotaged but is, in fact brought to public use for the public good.

He has highly qualified engineers, physicists, whatever's needed as part of the corporation. These are not flakey people but solid people with solid track records and reputations. No, I won't dig up the refs again. You can find the data yourself if you're interested. I think the DISCLOSURE PROJECT has relatively inexpensive CD's of tons of their info on UFO's as well as this project--since they are related.

I don't bet money, yankee dimes, beer nor a lot of other things.

I will be interested to hear the thunderous silence or whatever you characters care to say when such stuff does start breaking out into the open.

As I understand it, the device Greer and company are bringing forward does not violate any laws of physics that we are now aware of. I'm not sure what's covered in "that we are now aware of." There could be some factors which some corner of the professions know about but the general discipline does not. But I think they mean that there's no far out exhotic construction on reality involved.

The device has been screened by, I think at least 2-4 highly respected laboratories already. And, I think a lot of other preliminary stages have been accomplished. I think the current effort is reviewing the design toward effeciency, ease, economy in mass production. All the other issues and questions have been satisfacorily answered or solved.

I think there's also work ongoing toward handling the economic and other aspects of production and distribution.

As best as I can recall, the unit is the size of a medium sized suitcase or smaller. And, would produce sufficient energy to provide all the energy needs of an average or even above average American home or auto.

The issue of proving to the various laboratories that the unit produced a great surplus of energy without any detectable conventional input or prior internal conventional storage--that is a proven issue as of a couple of years or so ago as I understand it.

Enjoy your incredulity and laughter. It's likely to be shaken in the coming months and years. Shaken considerably. I'd even guess that your whole construction on reality will be markedly shaken along with every one else's.

59 posted on 01/23/2004 8:46:33 PM PST by Quix (Choose this day whom U will serve: Shrillery & demonic goons or The King of Kings and Lord of Lords)
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To: _Jim
Colonel Philip Corso wrote a book about what he observed in 1947 after the Roswell crash. Are you saying that he wrote a fictional book?
60 posted on 01/23/2004 8:47:41 PM PST by janetgreen
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To: _Jim
BTW, as my own relative asserted . . .

some of the corporate biggies as you describe them . . .

(I think Greer even names some corporate biggies involved in such technologies).

have been using such energy technologies to power the UFO type craft THEY have been building for decades--at least 30 years.
61 posted on 01/23/2004 8:48:46 PM PST by Quix (Choose this day whom U will serve: Shrillery & demonic goons or The King of Kings and Lord of Lords)
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To: Quix
I should say my relative alluded to more than asserted plainly.
62 posted on 01/23/2004 8:50:21 PM PST by Quix (Choose this day whom U will serve: Shrillery & demonic goons or The King of Kings and Lord of Lords)
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To: Dog Gone
Pravda used to be the New York Times of Russia. Now, it's worse than Weekly World News. Of course, the accuracy has remained the same, but Pravda today can't even pretend to be taken seriously.

Sorry, but I disagree. Russians have never taken Pravda seriously...

An old expression, "B Pradva ne pravde."
translation: In Truth, there is no truth.

63 posted on 01/24/2004 12:23:18 AM PST by Capitalist Eric (To be a liberal, one must be mentally deranged, or ignorant of reality.)
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To: _Jim; Quix
FOBS, or "Fractional Orbit Bombardment System"
FOBS entries (which the Soviet government denies ever took place) as "flying saucers"? It is easy to see that official Soviet censors would have initially welcomed the public misidentification of the FOBS entries. After all, officially, space systems such as the FOBS were illegal and hence the USSR would never test them. In fact, since the FOBS system was readily recognized in the West as an orbital H-bomb carrier best suited for nuclear sneak attack, the less the world knew about it, the better for Moscow's public peace posturing -- especially following the writing of a 1967 treaty outlawing the placement of H-bombs in orbit (which is exactly what the FOBS was designed to do). Despite the fact that Moscow sanctimoniously signed the treaty later that year, it continued to test FOBS vehicles (now outlawed by international law) long afterwards.

But these flaming UFO sightings in 1967 had ignited tremendous public interest in the Soviet Union. Up until that point, the Soviet population had been relatively insulated from the flying saucer phenomenon, which for 20 years had been exciting enthusiasts in the United States, France, South America, Japan, and to a lesser extent elsewhere in the world. Officially, Soviet commentators had denounced the topic as a product of capitalistic war hysteria and money-grubbing yellow journalism. By late 1967, however, the hundreds of thousands of new witnesses eager to make up for lost time, official Soviet policy had changed --briefly.

In Moscow, a group of UFO enthusiasts organized a private study committee. The chief mover evidently was Feliks Zigel, an astronomy professor at the Moscow Aviation Institute. A retired general, Porfiny Stolyarov, was chosen chairman, and it is by that name ("the Stolyarov Committee") that the group is known. After a series of very successful public meetings, the group was invited to appear on Moscow National Television on November 10. There, they invited watchers nationwide to send in reports of UFO sightings for scientific analysis. It is primarily from that body of reports that 10 years later the Gindilis team selected 256 most typical for analysis.

So by late 1967 the Soviet government was faced with the uncomfortable prospect of its citizens scanning the skies and reporting all strange lights they saw -- and all with official approval. Yet many of these lights were being caused by activities Moscow did not want to acknowledge. What started out as an ill-considered but apparently harmless pandering to public curiosity now must have seemed to be getting out of control.

It wasn't just the FOBS spaceshots that needed coverups. The top secret new military satellite center at Plesetsk north of Moscow had opened the year before for polar-orbit spy satellites. Sooner or later, one was bound to be launched in twilight when its sunlit rocket exhaust plumes would standout like a torch in the sky. With the sanctioned UFO mania sweeping the USSR, such reports were bound to be published widely, betraying strong hints about the hitherto concealed existence of the military space center.

And that is exactly what happened on December 3, three weeks after the televised UFO appeal. The Cosmos-194 Vostok-class spy satellite blasted off from Plesetsk at 3 p.m. local time, shortly before sunset. As it rocketed northeastwards along the Arctic coastline, its contrails were visible to eyewitnesses in the wintry night below. It became (and to this day remains) another great Russian UFO; it is known as the "Kamennyy UFO" since it was spotted from an aircraft on route from "Mys Kamennyy" (Cape Stoney) in the New Siberian Islands to Moscow.

64 posted on 01/24/2004 12:42:39 AM PST by endthematrix (To enter my lane you must use your turn signal!)
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To: mhking
Yes! I too want to become a citizen!
65 posted on 01/24/2004 12:45:33 AM PST by Fledermaus (Democrats are just not capable of defending our nation's security. It's that simple!)
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To: mhking
My son has a video he got off Kazaa of a helicopter that was hovering around the Trade Towers after the attack. I don't know if they were reporters or what. They suddenly see an unexplained object hovering off to the right of the right-hand tower and exclaim in surprise. Then suddenly the object comes right for them at a high rate of speed, then makes a sharp u-turn upwards as it's about to collide with the copter, right by the window !! Then bam, it's gone. My apologies if this video has been linked on here, I had no idea if it was. But I tell you, there's no doubt in my mind what that was - none in the least. Amazing.
66 posted on 01/24/2004 12:57:58 AM PST by Rainmist
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To: Rainmist
http://www.ufovideo.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=101
67 posted on 01/24/2004 1:23:10 AM PST by I got the rope
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To: Lawgvr1955
In the News/Activism forum, on a thread titled Soviet Army fought UFOs, Lawgvr1955 wrote: I thought "The Day the Earth Stood Still" was a modern story of Christ. An omnipotent and omniscient being (Klatu) comes in human form and in peace to warn man to practice the Golden Rule or else face eternal death by fire and brimstone. He is killed and his disciple (robot) who does his bidding brings him back and lays him in state (inside the ship) where he shortly thereafter comes back to life. He appears once again before man and then is lifted up into the heavens (blasts off). That cinema class I took in school was not a waste of time, eh????

Um...typologically speaking, yes, as in a vague allegory but probably one of the Jungian Christs rather than the real J.C. of Galilee. The friendly stranger motif appears again in StarWars and E.T.. The X-Files seemed to employ it also with that Jeremiah character. Healers from space. Of course, in StarWars Obi Wan Kenobi dies and then mystically reappears in a transfigured glorified form. The brown medieval Franciscan robe adds to the Christian mystical suggestions.

Interesting point, by the way. Christ figures in modern films, that is.

68 posted on 01/24/2004 2:19:31 AM PST by Kermit the Frog Does theWatusi
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To: endthematrix
Fascinating.

Though I don't think it has a lot to do with UFO's at all--even at the level of Russian citizen's involvement. That is, regardless of how much noise the citizens have made about military tests etc. it will turn out to have had negligible impact on the whole UFO phenomenon.
69 posted on 01/24/2004 4:02:03 AM PST by Quix (Choose this day whom U will serve: Shrillery & demonic goons or The King of Kings and Lord of Lords)
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To: Quix
Dr Stephen Greer and company have a corp and a machine that is making the rounds of various testing laboratories currently. Initial reports are incredibly positive.

Hype, bad science, outright lying, misinterpretation of data - you name, these guys have done it.

MOST of it results from an inability to properly monitor, measure, conduct and understand the experiments and devices they construct.

70 posted on 01/25/2004 7:19:13 PM PST by _Jim ( <--- Ann Coulter speaks on gutless Liberals (RealAudio files))
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To: janetgreen
wrote a book about what he observed in 1947

HOW many years after the fact?

Yeah, sure, HE'S telling the truth and EVERYBODY else including the farmer who found the "tinfoil, paper, tape, and sticks" are lying!

LOL!

"NEVER let the truth get in the way of a good story" - or the proceeds from a book!

71 posted on 01/25/2004 7:22:49 PM PST by _Jim ( <--- Ann Coulter speaks on gutless Liberals (RealAudio files))
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To: motzman
sigh...am I the only one that notices that the quotes should be switched?
72 posted on 01/25/2004 7:23:43 PM PST by stuck_in_new_orleans
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To: Quix
have been using such energy technologies to power the UFO type craft THEY have been building for decades--at least 30 years.

Yeah right!

While VIOLATING innumerable laws of physics to do so eh?

You're crazy and this guy Greer is getting 'rich' passing off technical 'parlor tricks' as actual science!

If you can't today *name* the principle by which something works (remember, we have split the atom into its constituent parts!) THEN you either a) don't understand it or b) the 'principle' is bogus.

ALL of the current work on 'Zero point' or 'free' energy falls into these *two* categories.

Shoot, MOST of those folks couldn't explain how a simple series circuit works in the common household flashlight light alone explain the inner working of a transistor AM radio ... and THESE are the people doing 'energy' research work!!??

Gimme a break - they're fruitcakes!

73 posted on 01/25/2004 7:33:45 PM PST by _Jim ( <--- Ann Coulter speaks on gutless Liberals (RealAudio files))
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To: _Jim
I gather that you are speaking specifically of DR Greer et al's stuff . . .

but are you really--from careful examination of their particular project in some detail?

or are you just speaking generically of all such?
74 posted on 01/25/2004 7:35:34 PM PST by Quix (Choose this day whom U will serve: Shrillery & demonic goons or The King of Kings and Lord of Lords)
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To: Quix
or are you just speaking generically of all such?

To date, the success of these people has been ZERO.

The cases I have had the opportunity to review - the individuals misinterpret, misidentify, mis-characterize or don't understand their 'lab work' or their 'device'.

Whether it was misinterpreting the 'peak' versus average or RMS (Root Mean Square) value of a waveform as read on a voltmeter as opposed to integrating that waveform on a digital oscilloscope and taking into account such factors as 'phase angle' (or power factor) - or incorrectly performing mathematical calculations to calculate efficiency of their 'device' -

- they turn out to be either wrong or hiding details in order to convince investors in the 'possibility' of their device

75 posted on 01/25/2004 7:44:27 PM PST by _Jim ( <--- Ann Coulter speaks on gutless Liberals (RealAudio files))
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To: _Jim
I'll take that as an

EMPHATIC YES

that you were speaking generically without any close or careful or perhaps without any exammination at all

of Dr Greer et al's work.

It's easy to agree with you about the vast bulk of such enterprises.
76 posted on 01/25/2004 7:52:08 PM PST by Quix (Choose this day whom U will serve: Shrillery & demonic goons or The King of Kings and Lord of Lords)
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To: mhking
They never could catch us after the U2 thing.
77 posted on 01/25/2004 7:53:33 PM PST by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: Quix
A WONDERFUL, down to earth 'reference' for those who insist on 'buying ino' the rubbish that is 'free energy', perpetual motion et al:
Don Lancaster's

Pseudoscience Library

Pseudoscience is what the Houynnyhymms politely termed "That which is not so". Ludicrosities such as free energy, alien abductions, cold fusion, UFO's, or perpetual motion.

There are three levels of pseudoscience:

Because so much of it is so mesmerizingly awful, much of pseudoscience makes for wondrously fascinating reading.

My goal here is to place a big pile of pseudoscience onto a large stage. Shine a bright light on it. And then get you to personally conclude: "Yup - that sure is a big pile all right."

The only tiny problem is that an awful lot of it keeps leaking out of the bottom of the pile.

Here's a sample of some of the basic failings of these 'free energy' folks:

The scientific method works. In which you propose
a falsifiable theory, test that theory, then invite
others to independently attack it.

o Those laws of thermodynamics reverify themselves
on countless occasions each and every day. These
laws are (1) you can?t win; (2) you can?t break even,
and (3) if you play the game, you are sure to lose.

o Each field has its secret insider gotchas. These are
certain to cause major grief to the casual inquirer.
Accurately measuring rms power or doing low Dt
calorimetry are two obvious examples.

o Most labwork ends up dead wrong. Either by not
measuring what you think it does. Or easily getting
misinterpreted, leading to wrong conclusions.

o An hour in the library is worth a month in the lab.
Science and engineering progress by building upon
the collective results of what has gone before.

o Intelligent life elsewhere in the universe does seem
extremely likely. But the odds that they are here or
have recently visited is vanishingly small.

o A single source for any theory or claim will always
be highly suspect. Always seek major backup.

o "Too good to be true" results always are. Should
they occur, you must spend monumental time and
effort in conclusively proving yourself wrong.

o Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof.
Such evidence is always an obligation upon those
making the claims, not on those challenging.
And most especially that?

o Finding a source of " Unlimited free energy " would
be the most unimaginably heinous crime possible
against humanity. For it would inevitably turn the
planet into a cinder. Hastening an isoentropic heat
death. If you find a free energy source, you damn
well better find a new free energy sink as well. Even
then, the relative flux rates will still nail you.
themselves to Alderon, traveling or communicating faster
than light, performing miracles with magnets, expressing
psychic powers, or extracting "zero point energy".
I quite strongly believe that these pseudoscience subjects
certainly do serve as useful adjuncts to porcine whole body
cleanliness. But otherwise are total hogwash.

The usual causes of pseudoscience fantasies include?

o labwork so mesmerizingly awful that it is not even
wrong. This one gets them nearly every time.

o not having even the faintest clue as to what a true
scientific experiment, correct measurement, decent
documentation, and realistic interpretation is.

o A failure to think cyclically or to look at whole
systems. The "power stroke" from repelling magnets
is obvious, but the extra energy it took to get the
magnets there in the first place might not be.

o A lack of appreciation for engineering economics.
Economics that must take into account efficiencies,
alternatives, infrastructure, and total costs.

o Dragging along unreleated excess baggage. In the
way of paranoia, odd religions, conspiracies, obtuse
verbosity, suppression fears, or nonstandard terms.

o Giving vastly more credibility to a Keelynet file or
an anonymous newsgroup post than a mainstream
textbook or a properly peer reviewed article in a
respected scientific journal.

o The failure to thoroughly research what has gone
before and then to carefully build upon it.

o Extreme hubris that fails to recognize the lifetime
commitments that untold thousands of scientists
and engineers have made. Like it or not, at least
some of these people are rocket scientists. They are
a lot smarter than you are.
And, of course?

o Sleeping through all those Physics 101 lectures. Or
skipping the course entirely.

78 posted on 01/25/2004 7:58:23 PM PST by _Jim ( <--- Ann Coulter speaks on gutless Liberals (RealAudio files))
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To: mhking
Antiaircraft guns of Transcaucasian Military District fired on the flying cigar-shaped object... the object reached a speed up to 2000 kilometers per hour.

This reminds me of a city council meeting I once attended in Seal Beach, California. They were hearing the plea of a fellow who wanted to open a Fortune Telling establishment. One of the council members read from the local statute, which stated that it was a crime for any individual to materialize or de-materialize objects within the city limits; to levitate; or to cause objects to spontaneously burst into flames.

The would-be fortune teller assured the council that he intended to do none of those things. Then he added, "My advice is, if you ever come across anybody who can do any of that, don't mess with him."

In the same vein, shooting at something that can go 2000 km/h is pretty stupid.


79 posted on 01/25/2004 8:03:09 PM PST by Nick Danger ( With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.)
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To: _Jim
Dr Greer has been following the scientific method very carefully. He is, after all, a successful MD--a trained scientist.

And, they have been working with some of the best labs available in the country.

But hey, I wouldn't want to hinder your notions of scientific parochialism in the least. We all have our sacred cows lending us comfort and illusions of safety, security and stability.

And your scientific approach to Dr Greer's project is sooooooooo impressively rigorous.

/sar
80 posted on 01/25/2004 8:12:53 PM PST by Quix (Choose this day whom U will serve: Shrillery & demonic goons or The King of Kings and Lord of Lords)
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To: Quix
Dr Greer has been following the scientific method very carefully. He is, after all, a successful MD--a trained scientist.

THAT expalins it.

Those guys don't seem to understand the LEAST bit about technology at times.

And he's going to re-write the 'laws of physics' and pull a 'new' energy source out of his hat?

Hardy har har hardy har har!

81 posted on 01/25/2004 8:17:55 PM PST by _Jim ( <--- Ann Coulter speaks on gutless Liberals (RealAudio files))
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To: _Jim
U-2 Speed 528 miles per hour
747 Speed 567 miles per hour
82 posted on 01/25/2004 8:28:18 PM PST by ASA Vet (I forgot to put a tagline here.)
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To: Quix
Dr Greer has been following the scientific method very carefully.

Is this the same Dr. Stephen Greer, "UFO" researcher from here:

May 9, 2001. Today was supposed to be the big day for UFOlogists but so far the great Disclosure Project hasn't ruffled any feathers.

A group of UFOers, led by Dr. Stephen Greer, a founder of CSETI who gave up his position in medicine to pursue aliens full-time, has lined up several hundred motley "witnesses" to pour forth their heartfelt testimonies regarding various experiences with UFOs, aliens and government agencies.

For those who missed the earthshaking press conference, videos of the event are for sale and a couple of clips viewable on Real Audio are available online.

May 11, 2001. ABCNews.com has a story today about the Disclosure Project (see below), complete with photo from an "alien" on display in Roswell. James Oberg, an ABCNEWS space consultant and retired NASA engineer, is quoted as saying that Stephen Greer, who is orchestrating the Disclosure Project, has long argued "there's this bizarre theory that there is a worldwide real X-file cabal that is using UFO technology....People see strange things they can't understand, and that can't be explained either then or in hindsight, and it's good to keep documenting these, because often the mysterious sightings are things of interest, to military intelligence or even to science....Often, I've seen people jump to conclusions about what they saw, because, after all, to have been scared by a distant fireball can be embarrassing but to have encountered an alien space ship is more exciting."

Yes, a *real* serious 'researcher' following the 'scientific method' no doubt ...
83 posted on 01/25/2004 8:29:35 PM PST by _Jim ( <--- Ann Coulter speaks on gutless Liberals (RealAudio files))
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To: _Jim
I didn't think you'd examined anything about him at all.
84 posted on 01/25/2004 8:30:36 PM PST by Quix (Choose this day whom U will serve: Shrillery & demonic goons or The King of Kings and Lord of Lords)
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To: _Jim
No!

He's pulling nothing out of his hat.

He's orchestrating industry and military types who've been working with such things for decades bringing it forward into the public domain.
85 posted on 01/25/2004 8:33:06 PM PST by Quix (Choose this day whom U will serve: Shrillery & demonic goons or The King of Kings and Lord of Lords)
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To: _Jim
And, as I understand it,

there's no rewriting physics text books needed--at least not in the technology closest to being produced for sale.
86 posted on 01/25/2004 8:35:10 PM PST by Quix (Choose this day whom U will serve: Shrillery & demonic goons or The King of Kings and Lord of Lords)
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To: Quix
He's orchestrating industry and military types who've

Nope.

I don't think so.

I don't think you have a realistic grasp of what takes place in 'industry' - and it sure doesn't require the crackpot-based ramblings of an ex-MD turned ' UFOlogist' ...

87 posted on 01/25/2004 8:38:15 PM PST by _Jim ( <--- Ann Coulter speaks on gutless Liberals (RealAudio files))
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To: _Jim
Interesting perspective on him.

I'm comfortable with my assessment of him as a person.

As I am comfortable with the reports of my relative who worked around the same stuff Greer has been collecting expert testimony on.
88 posted on 01/25/2004 8:41:02 PM PST by Quix (Choose this day whom U will serve: Shrillery & demonic goons or The King of Kings and Lord of Lords)
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To: _Jim
I suspect you'd disagree with Senator Inouye as well:

“There exists a shadowy Government with its own Air Force, its own Navy, its own fundraising mechanism, and the ability to pursue its own ideas of the national interest, free from all checks and balances, and free from the law itself.”

- Senator Daniel K. Inouye
89 posted on 01/25/2004 8:49:23 PM PST by Quix (Choose this day whom U will serve: Shrillery & demonic goons or The King of Kings and Lord of Lords)
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To: _Jim
And, given your seemingly unscientific inclination to take some things for granted, I suspect you disagree with Eisenhower, too:

“In the councils of Government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the Military Industrial Complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists, and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals so that security and liberty may prosper together.”

- President Eisenhower, January 1961

Said after disclosing to one of his military assistants that he realized he'd lost control over the UFO technology stuff.
90 posted on 01/25/2004 8:54:25 PM PST by Quix (Choose this day whom U will serve: Shrillery & demonic goons or The King of Kings and Lord of Lords)
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To: _Jim
Here's a long excerpt from a doc available at:


http://www.disclosureproject.org/access/Word-Documents/DisclosureProjectBriefingDocumentNoDocs.doc




7.0 A SUMMARY REVIEW OF ENERGY AND ANTI-GRAVITY RESEARCH

Compiled by Anthony J. Craddock
with assistance from Dr. Paul LaViolette and other researchers

Since the time of the great Nikola Tesla (and before), a small sector of the scientific community has known that so-called “free energy” can be extracted from our surroundings, and that many other exotic forces and effects, such as “anti-gravity”, are also waiting to be liberated at our beck and call.

In his 1899 Colorado Springs experiments, Tesla discovered the electro-gravitational (or scalar) wave, which oscillate the energy density of the vacuum and hence oscillate the curvature of space-time. So, over a century ago, it appears that Tesla had already produced a unified field theory of gravitation and electromagnetics. His discoveries were so fundamental, and his intent to provide free energy for all humankind was so clear, that it was probably responsible for the withdrawal of his financial backing, his deliberate isolation, and the gradual removal of his name from the history books.

The zero-point energy of a vacuum is the lowest energy vacuum state, with fluctuations taken into account. Even at low energies, quantum fluctuations continually arise, and result in an incessant, extremely rapid and violent "jittering" of the energy momentarily present. The minimum energy due to these quantum fluctuations is called the zero-point energy. The amount of this energy is HUGE. Some scientists have hypothesized that one cubic centimeter of pure vacuum contains enough energy to condense into 1080 – 10120 grams of matter! Quantum mechanically, no system of interest (including even space-time itself) can have zero energy. The so-called “free energy” is actually obtained by tapping into the above-described zero-point energy.

The bedrock of much of modern science is Classical Electromagnetic Theory (CEM). James Clark Maxwell developed this 136 years ago in an exotic algebra known as quaternions. In order to render it more assimilable for use by working electrodynamicists, it was deliberately re-written in much simpler language by Oliver Heaviside (and Gibbs) in 1903. This simplification (and truncation) eliminated a whole subset of the equations including the scalar electromagnetics and the gravitational aspects that were contained in the original theory. At last count, there are at least thirty-four known flaws in Clark Maxwell’s hoary old theory, which is what is still taught in today’s classrooms. Some of the world’s leading scientists, such as Wheeler, Feynman, Bunge, Margenau, Barrett, Cornille, Evans, Vigier, and Lehnert have all written about CEM’s deficiencies.

When this missing “Heaviside subset” of Classical Electromagnetic Theory is restored, and the brilliant 1903 and 1904 work of a Cambridge University mathematician, E.T. Whittaker, factored in, all of a sudden one has the supposedly elusive Holy Grail of Science – a true Unified Field Theory that unites General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Mind and Subtle Energy Phenomena and Classical EM Theory.

But in fact, for the advancement of humanity, the real Holy Grail could be argued to actually be contained in this missing subset, not in the more grandiose sounding Unified Field Theory.

For it is this “scalar potential” that stresses local space-time, i.e. the 3 spatial dimensions AND time, which allows the “bleed-through” of additional electromagnetic energy to create overunity electromagnetic systems. Indeed, the restoration of this missing subset also shows that Einstein’s Theory of General Relativity was also only a subset of the real theory that he was trying to write. Even though Einstein has been lionized for his theory of General Relativity (Time Magazine “Man of the Century”), he himself is on record as saying that the so-called foundations of physics need constant review, and that his Relativity Theory was not necessarily cast in concrete.

A further impediment to the theoretical extraction of “free” energy was also imposed on what was left of Maxwell’s already diluted EM Theory by H.A. Lorentz around 1902. He simply arbitrarily threw away the monstrous amount of current outside the circuit that was not intercepted by the circuit, and that he could not theoretically account for. This he termed “of no physical significance!” – even though it is approximately 1013 times greater than the intercepted current in our everyday electrical circuits! He thus perpetually locked EM systems in a theoretical and figurative iron box that would never allow them to go overunity and bleed in and capture additional energy.

Energy cannot be created or destroyed, and examples abound of where systems (such as heat-pumps or windmills) put out more energy than they take in, simply by transducing other energy sources. This is called overunity, when the outputted energy added to additional transduced energy from another source puts out more energy than is provided by the original primary source. Conventional science “allows” this in every aspect of “conventional science” WITH THE SOLE (ARBITRARY) EXCEPTION OF ELECTROMAGNETISM.

But, by not “allowing” the curvature of space-time locally, which is a way to open the gate to the “free” vacuum energy, one can well see why some entrenched economic interests have discouraged investigation of this physicist into this awesome source of energy. Indeed, we have been told that the US Patent Office has strict instructions not to allow any Patent for a meaningful overunity electromagnetic system or one that would appear to threaten the status quo of our present power suppliers.

Occasionally, however, the veil does inadvertently get lifted on some of the wondrous suppressed overunity systems, only to quickly be dropped again.

Here are a few examples:

Tesla’s Self-Powered Automobile

In 1931, in a very secret program, Tesla built an overunity, self-powered electrical power system, placed it in a Pierce Arrow automobile, and ran the car around successfully. A relative who rode with him in the car confirmed it many years later. Some details are described in Marc Seifer’s biography of Tesla as follows:

"The car [was] a standard Pierce Arrow, with the engine removed and other components installed instead. The standard clutch, gearbox, and drive train remained… Under the hood, there was a brushless electric motor, connected to [or in place of] the engine… Tesla would not divulge who made the motor."
"Set into the dash was a "power receiver" consisting of a box… containing 12 radio tubes… A vertical antenna, consisting of a 6 ft. rod, was installed and connected to the power receiver [which was] in turn, connected to the motor by two heavy, conspicuous cables… Tesla pushed these in before starting and said: ‘We now have power."

This Tesla device seems to have been remarkably similar to the radiant energy amplifier of T. Henry Moray described below. Also, Tesla coined the term “radiant energy” with respect to natural media in two of his patents.

Further, we have Barrett’s mathematical demonstration that Tesla’s actual patented circuits, when viewed in a higher topology, did indeed freely shuttle energy in the circuit as desired. In short, it appears that Tesla knew how to make circuits that asymmetrically self-regauged themselves creating overunity systems and therefore self-powering systems.

This is an entirely different operation than just the present entropic transfer of voltage used by electrical engineers today. It is more akin to deliberately regauging desired sections of the circuit, so that excess energy appears there from an external source. In short, it is akin to asymmetrical self-regauging, and also to the type of operation of circuits that Kron (discussed below) discovered so laboriously but never entirely revealed.

No technical details were ever released on how Tesla’s self-powered automobile system worked. The Tesla papers eventually turned over to his native country did not contain the actual "critical" papers present in his room at the time of his death. Those "critical" papers were illegally removed from his room as if Tesla were an illegal alien (he was a naturalized U.S. citizen, so the entire action was blatantly illegal). If those "critical" papers are still in existence, then they are still highly classified and hidden from conventional scientists. Cheney in her biography on Tesla reports finding the location of those papers.

The free energy electrical automotive power system part of Tesla’s work was financed by the same world financier who financed Adolph Hitler’s rise to power as well as much of the early Communist takeover of Russia. It is speculated that because of this financial control, Tesla would not have been allowed to put that car into production by one of the U.S. automotive companies

Some recent references and patents based in part on Tesla’s work are as follows:

Barrett, T.W., "Tesla’s Nonlinear Oscillator-Shuttle-Circuit (OSC) Theory," Annales de la Fondation Louis de Broglie, 16(1), 1991, p. 23-41.
Barrett, T.W. and D. M Grimes. [Eds.] Advanced Electromagnetism: Foundations, Theory, & Applications, World Scientific, (Singapore, New Jersey, London, and Hong Kong), Suite 1B, 1060 Main Street, River Edge, New Jersey, 07661, 1995.
"Active Signalling Systems," U.S. Patent No. 5,486,833, Jan. 23, 1996.
"Oscillator-Shuttle-Circuit (OSC) Networks for Conditioning Energy in Higher-Order Symmetry Algebraic Topological Forms and RF Phase Conjugation," U.S. Patent No. 5,493,691. Feb. 20, 1996.


The Moray Radiant Energy Device

In the early 1900’s, Dr. T. Henry Moray of Salt Lake City produced his first device to tap energy from the metafrequency oscillations of empty space itself. Eventually he produced a free energy device weighing sixty pounds and producing 50,000 watts of electricity for several hours. Ironically, although he demonstrated his device repeatedly to scientists and engineers, he was unable to obtain funding to develop the device into a useable power station that would furnish electrical power on a mass scale.

In the 1920’s and 1930’s Moray steadily improved his devices, particularly his detector tube, the only real secret of the device according to Moray himself. In his book , The Sea of Energy in Which the Earth Floats, Moray presents documented evidence that he invented the first transistor-type valve in 1925, far ahead of the officially recognized discovery of the transistor. In his free energy detector tube Moray apparently used, inside the tube itself, a variation of this transistor idea — a small rounded pellet of a mixture of triboluminescent zinc, a semiconductor material, and a radioactive or fissile material. His patent application (for which a patent has never been granted) was filed on July 13, 1931, long before the advent of the Bell Laboratories’ transistor.

In test after test Moray demonstrated his radiant energy device to electrical engineering professors, congressmen, dignitaries, and a host of other visitors to his laboratory. Once he even took the device several miles out in the country, away from all power lines, to prove that he was not simply tuning in to energy being clandestinely radiated from some other part of his laboratory. Several times he allowed independent investigators to completely disassemble his device and reassemble it, then reactivate it themselves. In all tests, he was successful in demonstrating that the device could produce energy output without any appreciable energy input. According to exhaustive documentation, no one was ever able to prove that the device was fraudulent or that Moray had not accomplished exactly what he claimed.

The records are full of signed statements from skeptical physicists, electrical engineers, and scientists who came to the Moray laboratory and left with the complete conviction that Moray had indeed succeeded in tapping a universal source of energy that could produce free electrical power.

But in the face of all of this, the U.S. Patent Office refused to grant Moray a patent, first, because his device used a cold cathode in the tubes (the patent examiner asserted it was common knowledge that a heated cathode was necessary to obtain electrons) and, second, because he failed to identify the source of the energy. All sorts of irrelevant patents and devices were also presented as being infringed upon or duplicated by Moray’s work. Each of these objections was patiently answered and nullified by Moray; nonetheless, the patent has still not been issued to this day, although the Morays still keep the patent application current.

John Moray, who operates the Research Institute in Salt Lake City, has been trying to continue his father’s work since the basic unit was destroyed by a Russian double agent. Dr. Moray himself died in May 1974.


Gabriel Kron and the Negative Resistor

At the time of his death, Gabriel Kron was considered by some the greatest “non-linear” scientist ever produced by the United States.

A negative resistor is defined as any component or function or process that receives energy in unusable or disordered form and outputs that energy in usable, ordered form, where that is the net function performed. We specifically do not include "differential" negative resistors such as the tunnel diode, thyristor, and magnetron which dissipate and disorder more energy overall than they order in their "negative resistance" regimes.

It appears that the availability of the Heaviside energy component surrounding any portion of the circuit may be the long sought secret to Gabriel Kron’s "open path" that enabled him to produce a true negative resistor in the 1930s, as the chief scientist for General Electric on the U.S. Navy contract for the Network Analyzer at Stanford University. Kron was never permitted to release how he made his negative resistor, but did state that, when placed in the Network Analyzer, the generator could be disconnected because the negative resistor would power the circuit. This negative resistor, one might add, was developed at the expense of the U.S. Taxpayer.
Since a negative resistor converges surrounding energy and diverges it into the circuit, it appears that Kron’s negative resistor gathered energy from the Heaviside component of energy flow as an "open path" flow of energy — connecting together the local vicinities of any two separated circuit components — that had been discarded by previous electrodynamicists following Lorentz. Hence Kron referred to it as the "open path." Kron describes this as follows : "...the missing concept of "open-paths" (the dual of "closed-paths") was discovered, in which currents could be made to flow in branches that lie between any set of two nodes. (Previously — following Maxwell — engineers tied all of their open-paths to a single datum point, the ‘ground’). That discovery of open-paths established a second rectangular transformation matrix... which created ‘lamellar’ currents..." "A network with the simultaneous presence of both closed and open paths was the answer to the author’s years-long search."

A true negative resistor appears to have been developed by Kron. He described his apparent success in 1945 stating : "When only positive and negative real numbers exist, it is customary to replace a positive resistance by an inductance and a negative resistance by a capacitor (since none or only a few negative resistances exist on practical network analyzers)." Apparently Kron was required to insert the words "none or" in that statement. He also wrote that : "Although negative resistances are available for use with a network analyzer,…" suggesting in rather certain terms that negative resistors were available for use on the network analyzer.


University of Moscow Scientists tested Overunity devices in 1930s

In the 1930s Russian scientists (Mandelstam et al. ) at the University of Moscow and supporting agencies developed and tested parametric oscillator generators exhibiting COP > 1.0. The theory, results, pictures, etc. are in both the Russian and French literature, with many references cited in this particular translation. Apparently the work was never resurrected after WW II.

Other pertinent Russian references include:

Mandelstam, L.I.; and N.D. Papaleksi, "On the parametric excitation of electric oscillations," Zhurnal Teknicheskoy Fiziki, 4(1), 1934, p. 5-29
Mandelstam, L. and N. Papalexi, "On resonance phenomena with frequency distribution," Z.f. Phys., No. 72, 1931, p. 223
"Concerning asynchronous excitation of oscillations," Zhurnal Tekhnicheskoi Fiziki, 4(1), 1934, p. TBD
"Concerning asynchronous excitation of oscillations," Zhurnal Tekhnicheskoi Fiziki, 4(1), 1934
"Concerning nonstationary processes occurring in the case of resonance phenomena of the second class," Zhurnal Tekhnicheskoi Fiziki, 4(1), 1934
Andronov, A. “The limiting cycles of Poincare and the theory of self-maintained oscillations,” Comptes-Rendus, Vol. 189, 1929, p. 559.
and A. Witt, “On the mathematical theory of self-excitations,” Comptes-Rendus, Vol. 190, 1930, p. 256
“On the mathematical theory of self-excitation systems with two degrees of freedom,” Zhurnal Tekhnicheskioi Fiziki, 4(1), 1934
“Discontinuous periodic movements and theory of multivibrators of Abraham and Bloch,” Bull. De l’Acad. Ed Sc. De l”URSS, vol. 189, 1930.
Chaikin, S., “Continuous and ‘discontinuous’ oscillations,” Zhurnal Prikladnoi Fiziki, Vol. 7, 1930, p. 6.
and A. Witt, , “Drift in a case of small amplitudes,” Zhurnal Teknicheskoi Fiziki, 1(5), 1931, p. 428.
and N. Kaidanowski, “Mechanical relaxation oscillations,” Zhurnal Teknicheskoi Fiziki, Vol. 3, 1933, p. 1.


The Original Point-Contact Transistor

The original point-contact transistor often behaved in true negative resistor fashion, but was never understood. The point-contact transistor was simply bypassed by advancing to other transistor types more easily manufactured and with less manufacturing variances. Point-contact transistors can easily be developed into true negative resistors enabling COP> 1.0 circuits.

Burford and Verner (p.281) state that: "…the theory underlying their function is imperfectly understood even after almost a century… although the very nature of these units limits them to small power capabilities, the concept of small-signal behavior, in the sense of the term when applied to junction devices, is meaningless, since there is no region of operation wherein equilibrium or theoretical performance is observed. Point-contact devices may therefore be described as sharply nonlinear under all operating conditions."


Overunity device installed in Minuteman Missile - patented by Westinghouse

A frequency converter using 64 transistor stages and similar sophisticated feedforward and feedback mechanisms was placed in the original Minuteman missile, then deliberately modified to stop its demonstrated COP > 1.0 performance. After much investigation, it was found that the units were putting out some 105% as much energy as they received. Some were exhibiting COP = 1.15. Very quietly, Westinghouse engineers then obtained several patents surrounding the technology, but no further mention of it appears in the literature although DeSantis et al. showed that feedback systems with a multipower open loop chain can produce COP > 1.0 performance. Some of these patents are listed below:

Andreatta, J.H. "High Power Switching Amplifier Wherein Energy is Transferred to a Tuned Circuit During Both Half Cycles," U.S. Patent No. 3,239,771, Mar. 8, 1966
Dennis Jr., T.L. "Highly Efficient Semiconductor Switching Amplifier," U.S. Patent No. 3,239,772, Mar. 8, 1966
DeSantis R.M. et al., "On the Analysis of Feedback Systems With a Multipower Open Loop Chain," Oct. 1973, AD 773188, available through the U.S. National Technical Information System.
Morrison, H.J. "Square Wave Driven Power Amplifier," U.S. Patent No. 3,815,030, June 4, 1974.

The Astronauts’ Magnetic Boots

In the original magnetic boots for astronauts developed by Radus et al. at Westinghouse, the magnetic fields themselves — from permanent magnets — were simply switched! The astronaut could pick up his foot by simply switching off the permanent magnetic fields easily. They switched on again when he placed the foot down. He did not have to carry a huge battery around with him, to furnish enormous current to do that. And the magnets had a memory. (So far as is known, even today no one tells you that in many virgin magnets fresh from the factory, their very first use conditions them with a memory! That fact can be used, for example, to create magnets whose fields appear normal, but which deviate from the normal behavior of ordinary magnets, including produce anomalies in their magnetic fields.

It can easily be seen that, when one can switch a permanent magnet’s fields easily, and the magnet also has a built-in memory as did the Radus magnets, then with a little ingenuity in switching one could use such switchable magnets to produce a self-switching, self-powered permanent magnet motor. The magnet, being a permanent dipole, is already a particular kind of "free energy generator", since it continuously gates magnetic energy directly from the vacuum due to its asymmetry in the energetic vacuum flux.

The entire subject of making permanent magnets with memories, and how to use such in operational systems, is still a largely unexplored, extremely obscure territory. In fact, most researchers are not even aware that the phenomenon exists. Some references on this topic are listed below:

Astleford, Jr., J. and R. J. Radus, "Distribution Transformer with Zero-Percent Impedance," Westinghouse Engineering, 23(5), Sept. 1963, p. 148-151
"Zero Impedance Distribution Transformer," IEEE Transactions on Power Apparatus & Systems, 83(9), Sept. 1964, p. 918-926
Hangar, A.W. and A. A. Rosener, "The use of permanent magnets in zero-gravity mobility and restraint "footwear" concept," IEEE Transactions on Magnetics, Vol. MAG-6, No. 3, Sept. 1970, p. 464-467. These crude "shuffler" boots are a contrast to the elegant Westinghouse/Radus "stepping" boots earlier developed and used by NASA.
"Human fly has magnetic sole," Electrical Engineering, Apr. 1963, p. 294.
Radus, R.J and W.G. Evans, "Apparatus Responsive to Direct Quantities," U.S. Patent No. 2,892,155, June 23, 1959.
Radus, R.J., "Permanent Magnet Flux Transfer Principle," Internal Westinghouse paper, date unknown
Radus, R.J., "Permanent-Magnet Circuit using a ‘Flux-Transfer’ principle," Engineers’ Digest, date unknown (July 1963?), p. 86.


Hitachi Engineers confirm Overunity Process

Applications by Japanese inventor Teruo Kawai of adroit self-switching of the magnetic path in magnetic motors results in approximately doubling the COP. Modification of an ordinary magnetic engine of COP < 0.5 will not produce COP > 1.0. However, modification of available high efficiency (COP = 0.6 to 0.8) engines to use the Kawai process does result in engines exhibiting COP = 1.2 to 1.6. Two Kawai-modified Hitachi engines were rigorously tested by Hitachi engineers and produced COP = 1.4 and COP = 1.6 respectively. The Kawai process, which can be constructed directly from the Patent with appropriate switching (e.g. photon), and several other Japanese overunity systems appear to have been blocked from further development and marketing.

Bearden, T.E., "Energetics Update and Summary," Part I, Explore, 7(6), 1997, p. 60-67; Part II, Explore, 7(7), 1997, p. 53-56; Part III, Explore, 8(1), 1997, p. 53-56; Part IV, Explore, 8(3), 1997, p. 56-63
"The Master Principle of EM Overunity and the Japanese Overunity Engines," Infinite Energy, 1(5&6), Nov. 1995-Feb. 1996, p. 38-55.
“Energy Flow, Collection, and Dissipation in Overunity EM Devices," Proceedings of the 4th International Energy Conference, Denver, Colorado, May 23-27, 1997, p. 5-51
Kawai, Teruo, " Motive Power Generating Device," U.S. Patent No. 5,436,518. Jul. 25, 1995.


The Magnetic Wankel Engine

The Magnetic Wankel engine should also be capable of COP > 1.0 and closed-loop self-powering, but apparently it has also been suppressed, as have all Japanese COP > 1.0 EM systems.

Bearden, T.E., "The Master Principle of EM Overunity and the Japanese Overunity Engines," Infinite Energy, 1(5&6), Nov. 1995-Feb. 1996, p. 38-55
"The Master Principle of Overunity and the Japanese Overunity Engines: A New Pearl Harbor?"
The Virtual Times, website http://www.hsv.com, January 1996.


Johnson’s Motors

Howard Johnson has built many novel linear and rotary motors and at least one self-powering magnetic rotary device that was later stolen in a mysterious break-in at his laboratory. Johnson uses a bidirectional "two particle" theory of magnetic flux lines that can be justified by Whittaker’s earlier work showing the internal bidirectional energy flows in all potentials and fields. He also utilizes controlled spin-waves and self-initiated precise exchange forces, which are known to momentarily produce bursts of very strong forcefields. His approach is to use highly nonlinear assemblies of magnets that initiate the foregoing phenomena at very precise points in the rotation cycle. In short, he seeks to produce precisely located and directed sudden magnetic forces, using self-initiated nonlinear magnetic phenomena. This is analogous to what the Wankel engine did using the Lenz law effect by sharply interrupting a weak current in an external coil. The Lenz law effect and other very abrupt field changes momentarily produce not only an amplified Poynting energy flow component, but also an amplified Heaviside energy flow component as well. Some relevant references include:

Cullity, B.D, Introduction to Magnetic Materials, Addison-Wesley, Reading, MA, 1972
Gurevich, A.G. and G.A. Melkov, Magnetization Oscillations and Waves, CRC Press, 1996
L’vov, V.S., Wave Turbulence Under Parametric Excitation: Applications to Magnets, Springer-Verlag, Berlin, 1994
L’vov, V.S. and L.A. Prozorova, "Spin Waves Above the Threshold of Parametric Excitation," in A.S. Borovik-Romanov and S.K. Sinha, (Eds.), Spin Waves and Magnetic Excitations, North-Holland, Amsterdam, 1988.

91 posted on 01/25/2004 8:59:31 PM PST by Quix (Choose this day whom U will serve: Shrillery & demonic goons or The King of Kings and Lord of Lords)
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To: All; andysandmikesmom; areafiftyone; bigfootbob; Ecliptic; El Sordo; Ghengis; green team 1999; ...
UFO PING LIST PING

DISCLOSURE PROJECT BRIEFING DOC EXCERPT ON 'EXTRA ENERGY' TECHNOLOGIES.
92 posted on 01/25/2004 9:02:58 PM PST by Quix (Choose this day whom U will serve: Shrillery & demonic goons or The King of Kings and Lord of Lords)
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To: Quix
Since the time of the great Nikola Tesla (and before), a small sector of the scientific community has known that so-called 'free energy' can be extracted

Rubbish.

Complete and unadulterated rubbish.

To quote Dan Lancaster "Anybody who has developed a limitless supply of 'free energy' had better develop an infinite sink as well".

To date, EVERY legitimate, peer-reviewed 'effect' and behavior of matter and its interaction with other matter has withstood the test of time and repeated experiments by others -

- SOMETHING you haven't yet grasped despite my postings to the contrary.

Posting VOLUMES of material 'claiming' discoveries means nothing; either show us the beef and let experiments be 'performed' by legitimate scientists and researchers with *real* lab-equipment or risk being labeled a perennial crackpot - to date, this has not happened.

93 posted on 01/25/2004 9:08:14 PM PST by _Jim ( <--- Ann Coulter speaks on gutless Liberals (RealAudio files))
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To: _Jim
No.

An extensive set of peer reviewed processes with the Disclosure project are set to be disclosed at a proper time.

I can trust that. I can understand that you can't.
94 posted on 01/25/2004 9:10:05 PM PST by Quix (Choose this day whom U will serve: Shrillery & demonic goons or The King of Kings and Lord of Lords)
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To: Quix
- President Eisenhower, January 1961

Quotes taken out of context - a favorite trick of hucksters ...

95 posted on 01/25/2004 9:11:02 PM PST by _Jim ( <--- Ann Coulter speaks on gutless Liberals (RealAudio files))
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To: Quix
An extensive set of peer reviewed processes with the Disclosure project are set to be disclosed at a proper time.

BS!

96 posted on 01/25/2004 9:11:42 PM PST by _Jim ( <--- Ann Coulter speaks on gutless Liberals (RealAudio files))
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To: _Jim
The examinations, experimentations have been performed by legitimate scientists in famous labs around the country. They will be disclosed and backed up with extensive documentation at the proper time.

Actually, as I understand it--that phase is long over, well in hand.

The phase they are much more into now is insuring that the particular design of the product is the best possible design in all components for mass production.
97 posted on 01/25/2004 9:12:27 PM PST by Quix (Choose this day whom U will serve: Shrillery & demonic goons or The King of Kings and Lord of Lords)
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To: mhking; All
May I put my bid in for the tinfoil concession?
If anyone see's a UFO, run like hell away, cause they aren't there to settle trade or peace negotiations with YOU!
*L* Live Long and Prosper!
98 posted on 01/25/2004 9:14:34 PM PST by NYTexan (A 60+ true republican Senate is the only way to decimate by attrition the liberal judiciary!)
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To: All
Dr Greer's Dec 2003 on Coast to Coast transcript:

from:

http://www.disclosureproject.org/TranscriptSG-ArtBellDec703-edited.htm




Transcript of Dr. Steven Greer's Interview
on Coast to Coast AM Radio with Art Bell
December 7/8, 2003



Coast to Coast AM Web site

[During the first 10-15 minutes of the program, Mr. Bell played a rebroadcast of a hypothetical disclosure briefing by John Lear and asked Dr. Greer to comment whether or not he would release that information to the public. That part of the interview is not included here in this transcript.]

Steven M. Greer, MD, is Director of the Disclosure Project, and CEO of Space Energy Access Systems (SEAS).

Art Bell (AB): All right, let me try this on you. Last night, I interviewed Bob Lazar - I know that you know that name - and --

Steven Greer (SG): Yeah, I know Bob.

AB: OK, fine. No matter what you think of Bob one way or the other, I got to a point in the interview where I asked Bob "Look, I'm going to ask -- there have to be other Bob Lazars out there. Send me email. Come forward. I'll give you air time. I'll put you on the air." And then I made the mistake - right after the break - of saying, "So Bob, what do you say to other people out there like yourself, should they come forward?" And he said, "Hell, no!"

SG: Right, oh yes, he has said the same thing to me because of the difficulties that people have experienced and yet - you know it's interesting, the Disclosure Project has over 500 people that we have identified. Over a hundred have come forward. None of them have had any harassment or problems associated with that. And I think that one of the problems is the "lone wolf syndrome". I think if you come forward as an individual, by yourself, trying to establish something this explosive, number one, the weight of the subject collapses that person. It can't be sustained with one person. It has to be sustained with dozens and I would posit to people maybe hundreds of people. And the other issue is that when a single person comes forward, there's an intrinsic credibility problem. Even if the person is saying everything that he says is true. But if it's something this explosive, it becomes hard to accept and when so much information is coming out about something this explosive from only one person, without independent corroboration, it sets that person up for a nightmare.

AB: Well, speaking of nightmares. Doctor, of the things that John Lear talked about, 75% which you said probably aren't so, are you discarding mostly the negative aspects of - I dont' know - either the alien presence or the way they look like, or what they've done to human beings? Or, what about the government stuff? In other words, what part of it do you buy into? You buy into the great secrecy, don't you?

SG: Well, I certainly, you know, accept the things that we have personally discovered and have multiple corroborating sources for. It's like at the New York Times, they want three separate sources. Well almost everything that we've bought into, we have more than half a dozen sources. So certainly there is extraordinary secrecy that's para-governmental, meaning that it is within certain aspects of what we might think of as the government. But in fact the Constitutional government as we think of it has very little sway over these matters and it's been really handled in an extra-constitutional manner.

AB: Do you think people have been killed over this information?

SG: Yes, I have no doubt of that.

AB: You have no doubt?

SG: Well, you - you know what I've said as well.

AB: Yes.

SG:You know we've had - before we got the security things in place that we enjoy today, our group suffered some terrible losses.

AB: I know that, but Doctor, do you really believe that if extreme prejudice has been used there would ever be an admission of that?

SG: Well, you know, it's very difficult to know whether something like that would be admitted to. I mean, some years ago, in the early first couple of years of the Clinton administration it was admitted that we deliberately infected African Americans with venereal diseases in the south.

AB: Point well taken.

SG: And we've also now admitted that there were nuclear experiments done where people were literally injected and infected with plutonium, the deadliest substance known to man. So I think that the world didn't fall apart then; it was acknowledged that those things happened. I think that many people understand that extreme measures are taken in the fog of war, or in the fog of confusion of dealing with something like this. I don't know that people would be happy with it - they weren't happy when those other things were disclosed. But of course, the point that we've always made about disclosure, and I think it has to go from disclosing information and documents about UFOs and extraterrestrial intelligence to the next phase, which is what we're working on now, and that's the disclosure of the raison d'etre for the secrecy, meaning of course the actual very powerful energy and propulsion systems that are well known in very classified, corporatized projects, but which of course would result in the termination of the fossil fuel industry including all oil, coal, gas, centralized utilities and what have you. But this sort of disclosure is something which can be a positive event and again, one of the things I said many years ago to one of the senior Pentagon people is that if a disclosure is done that hits all the "hot buttons" of paranoia, and fear and insecurity that humans have...

AB: Like God? Like our maker? Like how we got here? That sort of thing?

SG: Well, yes, which gets into very speculative areas, quite frankly. That part of the briefing I felt to be almost gratuitously speculative and beyond the scope of what would be a briefing that would be believable by most people. But I think the other issue is that a disclosure which would focus on the facts in a nonemotional way and would also point out the up side of this information and the very positive things that could redound to humanity over a period of time, that would be not a terrible event. So I think it depends on how one does this, and one would want to exercise a measure of wisdom.

AB: OK. Hold it right there. We're at the bottom of the hour.We'll have a clean shot till the top of the hour. Stand by, and we'll get right back to you. Dr. Steven Greer is my guest. From the high desert, I'm Art Bell.

[commercial and news break]

AB: Even if you assume the most benign of the truths - I think we've just agreed that people had been killed over this information to keep this information silent, and lies surely have been built upon lies for years and years and years until the stack stretches most of the way towards the moon, I suppose, and with regard to disclosure, Doctor, one crack can bring down a wall, and if we, for example, got information about new energy, the next questions would be, "Well, where the hell did you get it?", "Who'd you get it from?", "What have we done with them?", and on and on and on. In other words, the wall comes down.

SG: Well, of course, and this is one of the reasons why, aside from the obvious need for a solution to the biosphere pollution, geopolitical and other problems associated with fossil fuels, bringing out the information related to the energy and propulsion systems that have been kept secret, many of which, by the way, are not of off-planet origin, they are not of extraterrestrial origin. I remind people that a human being can invent something just as well as someone from another star system. And in fact, whether you look at the work of T. Townsend Brown, or you look at the work of Tesla, or you look at the work of Sweet and many others, there have been humans - very much humans - who have come through their minds the sort of innovations and discoveries, of the nature of time and matter and space and electromagnetism to allow for the generation of energy which is not needing the burning of fossil fuels or nuclear power or what have you. So, in fact, the issue really becomes "what's relevant to people right now", and I think what is most relevant to people right now is the harmful effects of secrecy, which very specifically has to do with keeping the world rather addicted to this little line of supertankers filled with this black stuff called oil coming out the Middle East and elsewhere.

AB: All right, well Doctor, I know that you have been on a worldwide search for the "Real McCoy", you know, alternative, over unity, whatever. I know you've been on that search. Where are you?

SG: Well, it's interesting, it's been a 2 year search. I will tell you that, as we expected at the outset, the vast majority of claims associated with this area are fraudulent. The next largest category are people who are not frauds but are simply delusional, meaning that they're sincere, but they're sincerely wrong. They believe they have something that is in fact a source of quote "free energy" and it isn't, it's a calculation problem or what have you.

AB: Right.

SG: The third category of people are people who really do have something, and I'm speaking of people who have not yet been absorbed into a corporate structure or government structure. These are people who, unfortunately we have found, all but one of them so far, and I say all but one - and we'll get to that in a moment - who have been convinced that, quote "the world isn't ready for this yet", and to keep it secret. In other words, they've gone through the same brainwashing that has kept some of the military people in line to keep these other things secret.

AB: No kidding?

SG: Yes, and what's interesting - and some of these are people who have systems that we have personally seen and tested and which would revolutionize the way the people on Earth live on the Earth. However, I believe they have been intercepted by people who appear to be friendlies to them, and who are actually counterintelligence and disinformation people who have convinced them of sort of a, sort of played into the inventor's syndrome of a Messianic complex where they're told, "Well, look you know, the world isn't ready for this yet, but when there's this eschatological solution to the human problem, sort of the "End of theWorld" scenario, we can then bring this out, phoenix like, and recreate, or resurrect, life on Earth in a positive way, and you can be the bearer of this information."

AB: Yes, but Doctor, you would have to -

SG: You would convince many of these people to then say "I'll just keep this secret."

AB: Well, wait a minute, Doctor. Let's just say I'd invented something. Let's say I had the over unity device. It's the "Real McCoy" and somebody comes to me. What could they say to me beyond "look the world isn't ready for this yet?" that would cause me to keep my mouth shut? It's not going to be enough to say -- I'm gonna say "Bull! The world has been ready for this for the last thirty years. Where have you guys been? So what else are you gonna say to keep me from releasing it?"

SG: Well, there's a combination of veiled threats and a history of threats and then a sort of grandiose appeal to people to keep these things quiet until quote "the right time". Now, of course, one of the things that we've pointed out to these gentlemen, is that if you want to take sort of a spiritual view of this - if the Divine Being has allowed the minds of men to discover these wondrous sources of energy and sciences for almost a hundred years, only to have them cast aside out of lust for power and greed and secrecy and other dark human emotions, how can you say the world isn't ready? It IS ready. It's just that the sort of power elite, if you will, aren't ready because they don't want to let go of the centralized power that is contained within the entire structure of the macro-economic structure that's based on the energy system that runs the entire world economy. But the point is that we believe that this last category of people are people who actually have discovered great things, are geniuses, but unfortunately have been convinced to keep it secret.

Now, there's one final category of people, and - we have to date only met one person who's been able to demonstrate a viable - when I say viable, something capable of putting out multiple kilowatts of power that could power a home or something -

AB: How much can you tell me about him?

SG: Well, what I can tell you is that our group, Space Energy Access Systems, has a worldwide exclusive license to try to bring this out. The person involved is offshore, is very frightened, has demonstrated to us that these technologies that he's been able to build, while somewhat crude, are actually very impressive, but to date has never been able to deliver to us a system. Now, this has been a very frustrating drama that has been going on now for about ten and a half months.

AB: Well then why doesn't that push him back a couple of categories?

SG: The only reason it doesn't is because -- he's in a gray box. What I would say is that this particular inventor is in a gray box where it's not quite clear yet if this is someone who has been unduly influenced by a third party to not cooperate, or actually has something, because we have seen and tested one of these systems.

AB: But I mean that puts the whole invention in the gray box.

SG: Well, yes. You have to separate out the behavior of the inventors from the technology itself, you really do. But in reality the result is exactly what you said, and that is, that it's in a gray box because at this point we're still waiting to take delivery.You know, we had - it's interesting - the first of March we had a private jet loaded to go and pick up this gentleman and the device and bring it back to a secure facility here, near our place here outside Washington.

AB: And what happened?

SG: A corporate lawyer and a business person that had been associated with this inventor stopped the whole transfer dead in its tracks, and it's very interesting. A whole book could be written about the drama of this little misadventure, or adventure, we're not sure which it is yet - but...

AB: On what basis was this stopped?

SG: Well, you know, the claim was that there was someone who was not being taken care of by the inventor who was supposed to be taken care of in the agreement that he had. In reality, we're not sure what was behind it. This is something that still isn't clear, and because we're dealing with a controversy and three separate countries, it's been a morass. So this is another one of the things that happens with these sort of efforts, is that you get these people surrounded by legal and business people who do everything they can to put a monkey wrench in having the technology brought forward. So the reason I say that this is in a class by itself is because we have been able to see an extraordinary phenomenon with this particular device that we cannot explain as anything but a device that is extracting electromagnetic energy that's usable from the so-called quantum vacuum space around that object. But in reality, because we have not actually taken possession of the machine or the plans to reproduce it, it remains very much in the questionable category.

AB: The claim here is that it extracted essentially zero point energy and turned it into kilowatts you could see.

SG: It wasn't quite kilowatts, maybe it was about half a kilowatt,and this is the machine that we were able to pick up and take outside, plug things into it, inspect it. There was no hidden source of power. It was one of the most extraordinary things I have personally ever seen. Now, that's the good news. The good news is that I'm quite sure that this can be done.

SG: Now, there's another category, and I would say that our group, the Disclosure Project, working with SEAS - and the disclosureproject.org people can look at what we're doing with this and also seaspower.com, our website. But what we have found is that there are about 3 dozen inventors who have devices in mature stages, or less ripe stages of development, and we think that with probably around 10 million dollars in research and development funds, that at least a dozen of those could be brought to commercial viability within a year or two. Unfortunately, they do need that kind of support and that's something we're looking at doing.

SG: And the next thing that we're doing, by the way, which we think is complementary to this and we're going to have information on this on our web site soon, and in fact I would say this is the first time I've ever called for this publicly is on this show tonight, is that we are going to do with the energy issue what we did with the UFO issue, and we are calling for exactly what you sort of brought up earlier, people who have been in either laboratories, corporations, government entities, or who are civilians with high credibility and high scientific credibility who have been either present during the suppression of these energy technologies or have seen them intercepted and cast aside or put into a black box, and who are willing to come forward and be identified. Now, we do know some people, some scientists, who have been involved in those projects, but they're terrified to come forward.

SG: What we're suggesting is that, let's get about a dozen of them who are highly credentialed who have been at the patent office, who have been in with an intelligence agency or corporation and have suppressed, for example, an 80 mile per gallon carburator, or who have suppressed a zero-point energy device, and who may have documentation to back this up or corroborating colleagues to back it up, and we will do next year, in the middle of this election cycle, a disclosure event, Disclosure Two, that will present to the world the fact that we do have a solution to the oil and biosphere and environmental problems, and that we have assembled people who are ready to testify and will testify quite independently again, here in Washington at the National Press Club, that in fact this has happened over the last fifty or sixty years. So, anyone who is like that and meets that criteria I just outlined can write to me personally at disclosureproject.org and we will get back in touch with them.

SG: However, I will tell you - you know, Art, I'm very careful. We're not going go forward with anything like this until we have multiple corroborating people who are highly credentialed, and highly credible, who are ready to put that information out to the public. The reason we think this has to happen very soon is because the public is being terribly mislead about not only why the world is run the way it is, but what has to be done to correct it. You know, we're looking at a 30-some billion dollar energy bill coming out of the Senate that doesn't address any of these issues, and with a fraction of a percent of that, this whole problem could be solved. So the public needs to know that there are seriously positive solutions to these energy problems that have been ruthlessly suppressed not out of national security but in point of fact, out of a ruthless sort of greed and a lust for power.

AB: Well, when you brought people forward, Doctor, credible people, and did the disclosure you did do, that wall did not come crashing down, or at least it hasn't yet, now --

SG: We never expected... See, that's a misinterpretation. That was never the intention that it would all crash down at once. This is a process. You know this thing has been building for not 50 or 60 years, Art. It's been building, the secrecy has been building for nearly 100 years.

AB: Well, alright, this is a second wall we're talking about, if you were to -

SG: It's a brick in the same wall. You see, this -- let me correct you here. This is part of the foundation of the secret apparatus and this is one of the chief cornerstones. The raison d'etre - the reason, the very purpose for much of the secrecy surrounding the UFO issue - isn't because, you know, they're here to eat us for lunch. If they'd wanted to eat us for lunch we'd be eaten already. It's because the energy and propulsion systems that explain the phenomenon of a UFO would make obsolete the need for oil and fossil fuels and these other very primitive, almost atavistic, technologies that we're using...it's like cavemen stuff.

AB: Well then, Doctor, explain then how you can disclose one without disclosing the other?

SG: No, the whole point is that you disclose both of them and one will bring the other one out, but the thing that right now is going to have the greatest traction and relevancy to a public terrorized in the aftermath of 9-11 and who are appalled at what's going on now in the Middle East and what's probably going to be going on in the coming few months. I won't say more than that, but I think it's going to get worse before it gets better. And I think that they're going to want to see that there is a solution to the purpose - to the reason why - many of these things have occurred. You know, many people forget that Osama bin Laden was an ally of the United States when we were in fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan, or helping him fight the Soviets in Afghanistan. It wasn't until we encamped in the Middle East trying to protect oil over there in the first Gulf war and the lead up to the first Gulf war that people in that part of the world became so furious with the West. And this is not to excuse the barbaric and horrific acts of the terrorists or of 9-11. It is, however, to shed some light on the background of this. You know, Art, I have just been invited --

AB: But, but, Doctor! Uh - one second. If we're having wars, we've had wars about oil, we're having a war about oil now. We're shedding American blood for oil so, how are you ever going to release information that says that blood was shed for nothing because we already secretly had the answer to the whole damn problem and it didn't have to happen. The war didn't have to happen. The oil doesn't have to keep coming and American boys don't have to shed their blood (and women) over in Iraq or anywhere else for oil because we really don't need it. How is that ever going to come out?

SG: It has to come out, and the longer we wait, the more painful these sacrifices will be, and I predict 9-11 will look like a picnic if we don't get our act together and fix this fundamental problem of very wrong-headed secrecy that has lead to an out of control, spiraling out of control, situation on this planet. And I think that the public already thinks this. You know, you don't have to go to a conspiracy theorist to have people understand that there are powerful cartels that have maintained the status quo and that there probably have been solutions to the energy issue and the environmental issue that have been kept out of the public domain because you're dealing with a five trillion dollar a year part of the global economy. So I think that this is not something that people are going to have a hard time understanding. I think, in fact, there can be another flip side of this. Part of it is the horror that you expressed which will be one reaction, but there is another reaction and that will be "Well, thank God there's a solution!" to this.

AB: That's not a trivial reaction. That reaction would bring down governments, tear nations to shreds. Politically, socially a disaster.

SG: It could if they don't handle it right. This is the other point. If there continues to be a resistance to letting this information come out -- you know, I had an executive producer from one of the big 3 news networks who was going to do an enormous expose on what we had found with the Disclosure project and about a year ago when we were working on this with him, he came to me and said, you know, I cannot do this piece. And this is an extremely mainstream, powerful news figure.

AB: Time is very short. Why couldn't he do it?

SG: He said, "They won't let me" and I said "Who are 'they'?" and he said, "Well, you know who 'they' are" and he smiled and I said,"Yes, of course, I know who they are." But the fact is that the public is going to have to relentlessly continue to do this, and there's some good news here. I've just been invited to do a 5,000 word guest article for one of the world's most prestigious foreign affairs journals.

AB: You know what, we're going to have to end the interview on good news.

SG: That's good news.

AB: So, Dr. Greer, thank you for being here!

SG: Thank you.

AB: Hot stuff! Good night my friend!

SG: Good night.

99 posted on 01/25/2004 9:16:17 PM PST by Quix (Choose this day whom U will serve: Shrillery & demonic goons or The King of Kings and Lord of Lords)
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To: Quix
Energy cannot be created or destroyed, and examples abound of where systems (such as heat-pumps or windmills) put out more energy than they take in

Here's your BASIC problem; a continued failure to understand a) the complete picture and b) ANYTHING about physics. The 'science' behind heat-pumps and windmills are WELL understood, BUT, this author 'claims' they "put out more energy than they take in" LOL!

Like I said; these folks couldn't explain the basic series circuit of common household flashlight let alone how an AM radio works LET ALONE perform or understand basic, competent electrical lab-work ...

100 posted on 01/25/2004 9:18:26 PM PST by _Jim ( <--- Ann Coulter speaks on gutless Liberals (RealAudio files))
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