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Vetting the Vet Record (More exposure of Kerry's lies)
National Review Online ^ | 1/27/04 | Mackubin Thomas Owens

Posted on 01/28/2004 3:12:15 PM PST by Elkiejg

Is Kerry a proud war hero or angry antiwar protester?

John Kerry, we know, is running against John Kerry: his own voting record. But there is another record that John Kerry is running against, and this has to do with his very emergence as a Democratic politician: Kerry, the proud Vietnam veteran vs. Kerry, the antiwar activist who accused his fellow Vietnam veterans of the most heinous atrocities imaginable.

John Kerry not only served honorably in Vietnam, but also with distinction, earning a Silver Star (America's third-highest award for valor), a Bronze Star, and three awards of the Purple Heart for wounds received in combat as a swift-boat commander. Kerry did not return from Vietnam a radical antiwar activist. According to the indispensable Stolen Valor, by H. G. "Jug" Burkett and Genna Whitley, "Friends said that when Kerry first began talking about running for office, he was not visibly agitated about the Vietnam War. 'I thought of him as a rather normal vet,' a friend said to a reporter, 'glad to be out but not terribly uptight about the war.' Another acquaintance who talked to Kerry about his political ambitions called him a 'very charismatic fellow looking for a good issue.'" Apparently, this good issue would be Vietnam.

Kerry hooked up with an organization called Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW). Two events cooked up by this group went a long way toward cementing in the public mind the image of Vietnam as one big atrocity. The first of these was the January 31, 1971, "Winter Soldier Investigation," organized by "the usual suspects" among antiwar celebrities such as Jane Fonda, Dick Gregory, and Kennedy-assassination conspiracy theorist, Mark Lane. Here, individuals purporting to be Vietnam veterans told horrible stories of atrocities in Vietnam: using prisoners for target practice, throwing them out of helicopters, cutting off the ears of dead Viet Cong soldiers, burning villages, and gang-raping women as a matter of course.

The second event was "Dewey Canyon III," or what VVAW called a "limited incursion into the country of Congress" in April of 1971. It was during this VVAW "operation" that John Kerry first came to public attention. The group marched on Congress to deliver petitions to Congress and then to the White House. The highlight of this event occurred when veterans threw their medals and ribbons over a fence in front of the Capitol, symbolizing a rebuke to the government that they claimed had betrayed them. One of the veterans flinging medals back in the face of his government was John Kerry, although it turns out they were not his medals, but someone else's.

Several days later Kerry testified before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. His speech, touted as a spontaneous rhetorical endeavor, was a tour de force, convincing many Americans that their country had indeed waged a merciless and immoral war in Vietnam. It was particularly powerful because Kerry did not fit the antiwar-protester mold — he was no scruffy, wide-eyed hippie. He was instead the best that America had to offer. He was, according to Burkett and Whitley, the "All-American boy, mentally twisted by being asked to do terrible things, then abandoned by his government."

Kerry began by referring to the Winter Soldiers Investigation in Detroit. Here, he claimed, "over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command."

It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit, the emotions in the room, the feelings of the men who were reliving their experiences in Vietnam, but they did, they relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do. They told their stories. At times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

This is quite a bill of particulars to lay at the feet of the U.S. military. He said in essence that his fellow veterans had committed unparalleled war crimes in Vietnam as a matter of course, indeed, that it was American policy to commit such atrocities.

In fact, the entire Winter Soldiers Investigation was a lie. It was inspired by Mark Lane's 1970 book entitled Conversations with Americans, which claimed to recount atrocity stories by Vietnam veterans. This book was panned by James Reston Jr. and Neil Sheehan, not exactly known as supporters of the Vietnam War. Sheehan in particular demonstrated that many of Lane's "eye witnesses" either had never served in Vietnam or had not done so in the capacity they claimed.

Nonetheless, Sen. Mark Hatfield inserted the transcript of the Winter Soldier testimonies into the Congressional Record and asked the Commandant of the Marine Corps to investigate the war crimes allegedly committed by Marines. When the Naval Investigative Service attempted to interview the so-called witnesses, most refused to cooperate, even after assurances that they would not be questioned about atrocities they may have committed personally. Those that did cooperate never provided details of actual crimes to investigators. The NIS also discovered that some of the most grisly testimony was given by fake witnesses who had appropriated the names of real Vietnam veterans. Guenter Lewy tells the entire study in his book, America in Vietnam.

Kerry's 1971 testimony includes every left-wing cliché about Vietnam and the men who served there. It is part of the reason that even today, people who are too young to remember Vietnam are predisposed to believe the worst about the Vietnam War and those who fought it. This predisposition was driven home by the fraudulent "Tailwind" episode some months ago.

The first cliché is that atrocities were widespread in Vietnam. But this is nonsense. Atrocities did occur in Vietnam, but they were far from widespread. Between 1965 and 1973, 201 soldiers and 77 Marines were convicted of serious crimes against the Vietnamese. Of course, the fact that many crimes, either in war or peace, go unreported, combined with the particular difficulties encountered by Americans fighting in Vietnam, suggest that more such acts were committed than reported or tried.

But even Daniel Ellsberg, a severe critic of U.S. policy in Vietnam, rejected the argument that the biggest U.S. atrocity in Vietnam, My Lai, was in any way a normal event: "My Lai was beyond the bounds of permissible behavior, and that is recognizable by virtually every soldier in Vietnam. They know it was wrong....The men who were at My Lai knew there were aspects out of the ordinary. That is why they tried to hide the event, talked about it to no one, discussed it very little even among themselves."

My Lai was an extreme case, but anyone who has been in combat understands the thin line between permissible acts and atrocity. The first and potentially most powerful emotion in combat is fear arising from the instinct of self-preservation. But in soldiers, fear is overcome by what the Greeks called thumos, spiritedness and righteous anger. In the Iliad, it is thumos, awakened by the death of his comrade Patroclus that causes Achilles to leave sulking in his tent and wade into the Trojans.

But unchecked, thumos can engender rage and frenzy. It is the role of leadership, which provides strategic context for killing and enforces discipline, to prevent this outcome. Such leadership was not in evidence at My Lai.

But My Lai also must be placed within a larger context. The NVA and VC frequently committed atrocities, not as a result of thumos run amok, but as a matter of policy. While left-wing anti-war critics of U.S. policy in Vietnam were always quick to invoke Auschwitz and the Nazis in discussing alleged American atrocities, they were silent about Hue City, where a month and a half before My Lai, the North Vietnamese and VC systematically murdered 3,000 people. They were also willing to excuse Pol Pot's mass murderer of upwards of a million Cambodians.

The second cliché is that is that Vietnam scarred an entire generation of young men. But for years, many of us who served in Vietnam tried to make the case that the popular image of the Vietnam vet as maladjusted loser, dehumanized killer, or ticking "time bomb" was at odds with reality. Indeed, it was our experience that those who had served in Vietnam generally did so with honor, decency, and restraint; that despite often being viewed with distrust or opprobrium at home, most had asked for nothing but to be left alone to make the transition back to civilian life; and that most had in fact made that transition if not always smoothly, at least successfully.

But the press could always find the stereotypical, traumatized vet who could be counted on to tell the most harrowing and gruesome stories of combat in Vietnam, often involving atrocities, the sort of stories that John Kerry gave credence to in his 1971 testimony. Many of the war stories recounted by these individuals were wildly implausible to any one who had been in Vietnam, but credulous journalists, most of whom had no military experience, uncritically passed their reports along to the public.

I had always agreed with the observation of the late Harry Summers, a well-known military commentator who served as an infantryman in Korean and Vietnam, that the story teller's distance from the battle zone was directly proportional to the gruesomeness of his atrocity story. But until the publication of the aforementioned Stolen Valor: How the Vietnam Generation Was Robbed of Its Heroes and its History, neither Harry nor I any idea just how true his observation was.

In the course of trying to raise money for a Texas Vietnam Veterans Memorial, Burkett discovered that reporters were only interested in homeless veterans and drug abuse and that the corporate leaders he approached had bought into the popular image of Vietnam veterans. They were not honorable men who took pride in their service, but whining welfare cases, bellyaching about what an immoral government did to them.

Fed up, Burkett did something that any reporter worth his or her salt could have done: he used the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) to check the actual records of the "image makers" used by reporters to flesh out their stories on homelessness, Agent Orange, suicide, drug abuse, criminality, or alcoholism. What he found was astounding. More often than not, the showcase "veteran" who cried on camera about his dead buddies, about committing or witnessing atrocities, or about some heroic action in combat that led him to the current dead end in his life, was an impostor.

Indeed, Burkett discovered that over the last decade, some 1,700 individuals, including some of the most prominent examples of the Vietnam veteran as dysfunctional loser, had fabricated their war stories. Many had never even been in the service. Others, had been, but had never been in Vietnam.

Stolen Valor made it clear why John Kerry's testimony in 1971 slandered an entire generation of soldiers. Kerry gave credence to the claim that the war was fought primarily by reluctant draftees, predominantly composed of the poor, the young, or racial minorities.

The record shows something different, indicating that 86 percent of those who died during the war were white and 12.5 percent were black, from an age group in which blacks comprised 13.1 percent of the population. Two thirds of those who served in Vietnam were volunteers, and volunteers accounted for 77 percent of combat deaths.

Kerry portrayed the Vietnam veteran as ashamed of his service:

We wish that a merciful God could wipe away our own memories of that service as easily as this administration has wiped their memories of us. But all that they have done and all that they can do by this denial is to make more clear than ever our own determination to undertake one last mission, to search out and destroy the last vestige of this barbaric war, to pacify our own hearts, to conquer the hate and the fear that have driven this country these last ten years and more, and so when in 30 years from now our brothers go down the street without a leg, without an arm, or a face, and small boys ask why, we will be able to say "Vietnam" and not mean a desert, not a filthy obscene memory, but mean instead the place where America finally turned and where soldiers like us helped it in the turning.

But a comprehensive 1980 survey commissioned by Veterans' Administration (VA) reported that 91 percent of those who had seen combat in Vietnam were "glad they had served their country;" 80 percent disagreed with the statement that "the US took advantage of me;" and nearly two out of three would go to Vietnam again, even knowing how the war would end.

Today, Sen. Kerry appeals to veterans in his quest for the White House. He invokes his Vietnam service at every turn. But an honest, enterprising reporter should ask Sen. Kerry this: Were you lying in 1971 or are you lying now? We do know that his speech was not the spontaneous, emotional, from-the-heart offering that he suggested it was. Burkett and Whitley report that instead, "it had been carefully crafted by a speech writer for Robert Kennedy named Adam Walinsky, who also tutored him on how to present it."

But the issue goes far beyond theatrics. If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service. Who can be proud of committing war crimes of the sort that Kerry recounted in his 1971 testimony? But if he is proud of his service today, perhaps it is because he always knew that his indictment in 1971 was a piece of political theater that he, an aspiring politician, exploited merely as a "good issue." If the latter is true, he should apologize to every veteran of that war for slandering them to advance his political fortunes.

— Mackubin Thomas Owens is an NRO contributing editor and a professor of strategy and force planning at the Naval War College in Newport, R.I. He led a Marine infantry platoon in Vietnam in 1968-1969.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Editorial; Front Page News; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: 2004; johnfnkerrylies; kerry; kerryhypocracy; kerryrecord; vvaw
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Ran a search for this article, but didn't see one posted. Interestingly, I received it in an email from a retired military guy who told me it's being circulated around active and retired military!!
1 posted on 01/28/2004 3:12:17 PM PST by Elkiejg
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To: Nix 2; river rat; The Mayor; The Old Sarge; 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub; Kathy in Alaska; ladtx; ...
Kerry info...FYI
2 posted on 01/28/2004 3:21:10 PM PST by MEG33 (America will never seek a permission slip to provide for the security of our country)
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To: Elkiejg
BUMP!
3 posted on 01/28/2004 3:23:56 PM PST by jmstein7
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To: Elkiejg
The Fox News panel discussed this after Kerry's primary win...they all agreed that this will not be an issue for vet Dems...the only issue is to beat Bush....I was heartsick.
4 posted on 01/28/2004 3:28:18 PM PST by mystery-ak (Almighty God, Embrace with Your invincible armour our loved ones in all branches of the service.)
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To: Elkiejg
You forgot to mention that Nixon, Kerry and Fonda all worked hand in hand.
All 3 turned their backs on the silent majority.
Nixon killed as many as Johnson did.
All followed Eisnenhowers lead in getting us involved in Viet Nam.
I am sick of hearing about Viet Nam.
I served over there under Johnson and Nixon.
There was no difference.
Both wanted to get out.
And Kerry and Fonda etc couldn't agree more.
Pox on them all!
5 posted on 01/28/2004 3:30:03 PM PST by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Thank You Troops, Past and Present)
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To: Elkiejg
In fact, the entire Winter Soldiers Investigation was a lie.

Wonder if this is what Hannity has been discussing as the big unknown negative about Kerry which will be exposed in his book due out soon?

wow.... the only decent candidate the democrats have is Leiberman and they've almost completely dismissed him.

Wait 'til Dean hears about this :-) (not to mention the Vietnam Vets supporting Kerry)

6 posted on 01/28/2004 3:30:57 PM PST by hotpotato
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To: mystery-ak
Give it time.... I think this story has legs.
7 posted on 01/28/2004 3:32:22 PM PST by hotpotato
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To: MEG33
Is John Kerry the New Democrat Golden Boy?
By Barbara Stock
January 26, 2004

The good citizens of Iowa handed Richard Gephardt a shocking loss and they put the oft-times raging Howard Dean into a nearly hysterical state. Iowa also presented Senator John Kerry with a huge surprise win. Kerry left Iowa for New Hampshire as the odds-on favorite to win the Democrat nomination.

Senator Kerry often speaks of his war record and his military service during the Vietnam war. No one doubts that he served and by most accounts, served well. Kerry was also awarded the distinctive honor of a Silver Star. But some questions linger.

The Silver Star is awarded to those who have exhibited ''gallantry in action'' while in combat with an enemy of the United States.

It's true that Lieutenant (j.g.) Kerry was in combat. Indeed, his boat had been fired upon by the enemy. Kerry beached his boat and an enemy soldier broke and ran. Tom Belodeau, one of the boat's gunners, admitted this enemy soldier was wounded in the attack. Lt. Kerry then chased the wounded man behind a ''hootch'' where he ''finished him off.'' It was for this action that he was awarded the prestigious Silver Star.

There were some who felt this act was not deserving of such an honor. Dan Carr, a Marine who served 14 months in Vietnam, questioned whether such an honor should have been bestowed on a man who killed a retreating and wounded enemy soldier.

When young Kerry returned to the States, he began protesting against the Vietnam War. On April 23, 1971, Kerry testified before Congress about atrocities he had allegedly seen and heard about. He testified that American soldiers ''raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, [had] blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam.'' He stated there never was a communist threat in Vietnam.

He joined a group called ''Vietnam Vets against the War.'' This group eventually abandoned him because the members realized that he was using their cause as a platform for his own personal gain. He was making it appear as though American soldiers were out-of-control animals, rampaging across Vietnam torturing and killing for sport. This was not their message. They were protesting the war. They weren't accusing their fellow soldiers of being murderers and rapists. They had not seen any of the behavior Kerry stated he witnessed. One member remarked that Kerry seemed to be making it up to give people what they wanted to hear.

Recently, Senator Kerry gave a speech at a Vietnam War Memorial, and many of the veterans turned their backs to him and walked away. They saw him as the man who called them war criminals in his testimony before Congress. The man who received the Silver Star for killing a wounded, retreating enemy soldier, had accused them of hideous war crimes.

Michael Benge, a Viet Nam POW from 1968 to 1973, wants Americans to know that it was Kerry who blocked ''The Vietnam Human Rights Act.'' (HR-2833) Benge believes that action gave Hanoi the green light to ignore violations of human rights with the blessing of the United States.

Senator Kerry can often be heard making the statement that the Bush Administration is controlled solely by ''special interests.'' Of course, he is untouched by this disease that he says permeates the Republican Party.

The senator was the head of the Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs in 1992. He pushed vigorously to normalize relations with Vietnam. He visited Vietnam and praised them for being open and reported he was convinced they were not holding American POWs. Many families didn't believe him then and don't believe him now. But why would he be so anxious to normalize relations with the former enemy?

The answer is special interests and money. Collier's International, based in Boston, was immediately awarded the exclusive contract to rebuild Vietnam's infrastructure by the Vietnamese government. They made tens of millions of dollars from the contract. The chief executive officer of Collier's International was a man named C. Stewart Forbes. Interestingly, Senator Kerry's middle name is Forbes. There is a reason for that. C. Stewart Forbes is John Kerry's cousin.

The New Yorker Magazine touted Kerry as the senator who defeated the ''mendacious POW lobby.'' Yes, Kerry helped defeat those tenacious family members who wanted to know what happened to their missing loved ones. His strange bedfellow in this battle against POW families was none other than fellow Senator and former POW John McCain.

This committee's final report in 1993 was chilling. It determined that American POWs were left alive in Viet Nam after the war but felt none were still alive. It makes no attempt to identify those left behind, how they died, who killed them, and where their remains are located. They were abandoned in life and death.

Is Senator Kerry in full support of our intelligence gathering capabilities? His voting record indicates he is not.

In 1994/95, Kerry proposed a bill to gut $1.5 billion from intelligence and freeze spending for two major intelligence programs--the National Foreign Intelligence Program and Tactical Intelligence Program. (S. 1826) That bill did not make it to a vote, but the language was retooled, the amount dropped to $1 billion, and it was finally defeated as S. Amendment 1452 to H.R. 3759. (S. 1826, Introduced 2/3/94)

He voted to cut 80 million from the FBI budget. (HR-2076)

In 1997, Kerry felt there that were no threats to the United States. This prompted him to place this statement in the Congressional Record: ''Now that the [Cold War] struggle is over, why is it that our vast intelligence apparatus continues to grow even as Government resources for new and essential priorities fall far short of what is necessary?'' (Congressional Record, 5/1/97, p. S3891)

Twelve days after 9/11, Senator Kerry had the nerve to make this statement: ''And the tragedy is, at the moment, that the single most important weapon for the United States of America is intelligence. ...we are weakest, frankly, in that particular area. So it's going to take us time to be able to build up here to do this properly.'' (CBS's ''Face the Nation,'' 9/23/01)

After spending years trying to lay waste to our intelligence capabilities, succeeding at times, and failing at times, he now preaches about how our intelligence community was negligent.

In ''Golden Boy--Part Two,'' his abysmal record on supporting the military will be covered.



8 posted on 01/28/2004 3:33:33 PM PST by Nix 2 (http://www.warroom.com QUINN AND ROSE from 6-10 AM-104.7 FM in da Burgh&WWVA AM)
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To: mystery-ak
At least, I think it has legs with regards to independents such as myself. Kerry has been touting his Vietnam connections too loud for too long for this not to end up like egg on his face. It's disgraceful. It might not make a difference with regard to democratic primaries and of course, republicans aren't going to be voting for Kerry, but there are a lot of independents that will sit up and take note.
9 posted on 01/28/2004 3:38:05 PM PST by hotpotato
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To: Elkiejg
"Another acquaintance who talked to Kerry about his political ambitions called him a 'very charismatic fellow looking for a good issue.'"

Very charistatic? John Kerry? This John Kerry??? The one running for President? Did I miss something?
10 posted on 01/28/2004 3:44:33 PM PST by 4everontheRight (GW'04 - Rice"08)
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To: Nix 2
You should post this on its on thread. I did a search on FR and did not find it. Do you still have the link to the article? I think this should get a LOT more coverage.
11 posted on 01/28/2004 3:45:57 PM PST by hotpotato
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To: Elkiejg
Ran a search for this article, but didn't see one posted...

Posted here "Vetting the Vet Record. Is Kerry a proud war hero or angry antiwar protester?" yesterday. It is interesting that you received it in an email being circulated around active and retired military.

12 posted on 01/28/2004 3:50:58 PM PST by xsysmgr
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To: Nix 2; hotpotato
I think this will have legs too!

Bookmarked!!

If he becomes the candidate, you can bet I'll be MAILING this to the headquarters of every VET Organization there is!
13 posted on 01/28/2004 3:51:09 PM PST by Vets_Husband_and_Wife
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To: Nix 2
Bumping post 8!
14 posted on 01/28/2004 3:51:43 PM PST by Vets_Husband_and_Wife
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To: Elkiejg
While left-wing anti-war critics of U.S. policy in Vietnam were always quick to invoke Auschwitz and the Nazis in discussing alleged American atrocities, they were silent about Hue City, where a month and a half before My Lai, the North Vietnamese and VC systematically murdered 3,000 people. They were also willing to excuse Pol Pot's mass murderer of upwards of a million Cambodians.

How familiar does this sound? Today it's Bush is a Nazi despite the years of atrocities in Iraq. How perfect, Kerry is a man of old, tired ideas, looking for traction by lying and misrepresenting the truth.

15 posted on 01/28/2004 3:54:48 PM PST by Dolphy
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To: 4everontheRight
I share your wonderment at"charismatic.Have you seen his "Bring it on" chant and the following"Don't let the door hit you on the way out"?

It sounds like a pre school teacher carefully teaching the children the ABC song.Too slow,too somber and no "zing".He's should have Teddy,the swimmer, do his campaign speeches!LOL
16 posted on 01/28/2004 4:01:32 PM PST by MEG33 (America will never seek a permission slip to provide for the security of our country)
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To: Elkiejg; All
Cross-linked:

-John Kerry- some selected, informative links...--

17 posted on 01/28/2004 4:06:01 PM PST by backhoe (--30--)
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To: hotpotato

18 posted on 01/28/2004 4:12:47 PM PST by BenLurkin (Socialism is Slavery)
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Comment #19 Removed by Moderator

To: Elkiejg
I received it in an email from a retired military guy who told me it's being circulated around active and retired military!

Very good; because the only people that can take him on concerning this issue are former Vets. Those who never served might as well keep quiet on this one, because without having walked the walk they appear inferior, facile chickenhawks.

Clinton wasn't done in by dodging the draft, that POT, and Kerry sure as hell won't be done in for his post war activities unless those who sweated blood, like him, do him in.

My hope is that they do, because he did try to lift himself up by slandering our boys, so as far as I'm concerned he deserves whatever they serve him.

20 posted on 01/28/2004 4:25:26 PM PST by AlbionGirl ("Ha cambiato occhi per la coda.")
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To: MEG33
" I received it in an email from a retired military guy who told me it's being circulated around active and retired military!!"

I sent this to another retired Army guy yesterday who forwarded it to his "mailing list". I'm guessing that several others did the same thing - amazing how fast news can travel.
21 posted on 01/28/2004 4:44:54 PM PST by Ben Hecks
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To: MEG33; Elkiejg
OOPS! That was supposed to be addressed to Elkiejg.....sorry MEG.
22 posted on 01/28/2004 4:47:23 PM PST by Ben Hecks
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To: MEG33
Shhhhhh!..

It's too early to expose Kerry's sordid past life lies and misbehavior....
Let him continue to portray himself as the warrior's brother and protector.
Let him contiune to hide his post-Vietnam behavior and his Senate voting record....

Let him become the candidate -- and THEN kick his ass and expose him for the freaking phoney and dupe or liar that he became...

Semper Fi
23 posted on 01/28/2004 4:53:13 PM PST by river rat (Militant Islam is a cult, flirting with extinction)
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To: Elkiejg
If (Kerry) believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service. Who can be proud of committing war crimes of the sort that Kerry recounted in his 1971 testimony?

Kerry is a slithering opportunist, trying to have it both ways.

He shouldn't be allowed to have it either way!

24 posted on 01/28/2004 5:16:33 PM PST by Gritty ("There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily"-Geo Washington)
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To: Elkiejg
"In fact, the entire Winter Soldiers Investigation was a lie. It was inspired by Mark Lane's 1970 book entitled Conversations with Americans, which claimed to recount atrocity stories by Vietnam veterans."

This would be the same ultra leftwing KGB stooge, Mark Lane, who brought us the Kennedy assassination conspracy.

"For instance, documents smuggled out of Russia by Vasilii Mitrokhin, a former KGB archivist, suggest that the KGB secretly subsidized the work of Mark Lane"

http://www.paulmitchinson.com/jfk.html
25 posted on 01/28/2004 5:27:06 PM PST by Hon
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To: river rat
The problem with this issue is that you had to be there, you have to have lived thru it to understand how contemptible he is. The voters now who have no memory just have a vague feeling, "viet nam was awful, Viet Nam vets are scared, suffering,,that war was terrible". They have no clue as to how the anti war moviement was financed, driven by anti Americans and how it ripped this country apart and how we have paid for it and suffered from it for thirty years. The divisions now are were generated by that movement thirty years ago, more likely fifty years ago. They just will never understand. Kerry was a tool of that movement. He probably doesn't know it.
26 posted on 01/28/2004 5:28:53 PM PST by cajungirl (se)
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To: river rat
We are armed for when the time comes...;}
27 posted on 01/28/2004 5:40:45 PM PST by MEG33 (America will never seek a permission slip to provide for the security of our country)
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To: cajungirl
The Vietnamese and Cambodians sure paid for it.
28 posted on 01/28/2004 5:43:23 PM PST by MEG33 (America will never seek a permission slip to provide for the security of our country)
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To: Elkiejg; kdf1; AMERIKA; Lancey Howard; MudPuppy; SMEDLEYBUTLER; opbuzz; Snow Bunny; gitmogrunt; ...
major need to bump
29 posted on 01/28/2004 5:57:01 PM PST by RaceBannon
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To: Elkiejg
Another acquaintance who talked to Kerry about his political ambitions called him a 'very charismatic fellow looking for a good issue.'

The same was said of Jane Fonda early on in the Vietnam experience. She and Kerry both had an agenda of sorts and both were trying to exploit it in some fashion. Jane Fonda was described as an empty vessel searching for a cargo to transport ... she was successful to some extent.

30 posted on 01/28/2004 6:02:32 PM PST by BluH2o
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To: MEG33
Yes and the world turned a blind eye to the million Cambodians killed. They still turn a blind eye. Shameful.
31 posted on 01/28/2004 6:15:20 PM PST by cajungirl (se)
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To: MEG33
I just hope that the stupid party (the Republicans), has the brass orbs to hang the lying "veterans" and Jane Fonda albatross around his neck...

John F'ing Kerry must be smart enough to KNOW, that we KNOW and we know that he knows we know -- so he must not be sleeping well...

Lies and betrayal have a habit of catching up with one -- eventually....

Semper Fi
32 posted on 01/28/2004 6:20:25 PM PST by river rat (Militant Islam is a cult, flirting with extinction)
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To: RaceBannon
Race thanks for the ping. we have been talking about this, on the Mass Locale, my latest post.

I saw this on the Viet Nam Veterans against Kerry.

I don't know what the rules of engagement, in the Delta, in a free fire zone were, but you couldn't shoot just anyone, you had to receive fire or observe the enemy under arms, then you could do pretty much as you pleased as long as you faced an armed foe.

As a note to this; No matter what what you saw on "Combat" or read in your history books or WW2 movies, if you are a civilian in a war zone and you are stupid enough to be caught in a battle, you are likely to get dead, as we used to say. Targets of opportunity is cowboy talk and an excuse for poor discipline, kinda like a deer hunter making sound shots, they either got guns or they don't.

While in command of Swift Boat 44, Kerry and crew operated without prudence in a Free Fire Zone, carelessly firing at targets of opportunity racking up a number of enemy kills and some civilians.

His body count included a woman, her baby, a 12 year-old boy, an elderly man and several South Vietnamese soldiers.

"It is one of those terrible things, and I'll never forget, ever, the sight of that child," Kerry later said about the dead baby. "But there was nothing that anybody could have done about it.

It was the only instance of that happening.

Kerry said he was appalled that the Navy's ''free fire zone'' policy in Vietnam put civilians at such high risk.

33 posted on 01/28/2004 6:23:04 PM PST by Little Bill (The pain of being a Red Sox Fan.)
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To: river rat
I despise what he did.
34 posted on 01/28/2004 6:26:53 PM PST by MEG33 (America will never seek a permission slip to provide for the security of our country)
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To: Elkiejg
bump
35 posted on 01/28/2004 6:36:28 PM PST by VOA
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To: cajungirl
The WH isn't the place for a fool (one possibility) or a dishonest scammer - he didn't get his character flaws from "Irish Roots" that he doesn't have, but that he claimed when he thought it would benefit him...
36 posted on 01/28/2004 6:42:16 PM PST by 185JHP ( "The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.")
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To: 185JHP
Your right he doesn't have Irish roots. Saw his orange tie he was wearing last nite and wondered why a guy who acts Irish would do that after winning the primary. If he does it on St Patrick's Day we know where this NWO guy sentiments are.
37 posted on 01/28/2004 6:57:54 PM PST by eternity (From here to...)
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To: Elkiejg
Vietnam Veterans Against John Kerry
38 posted on 01/28/2004 8:59:39 PM PST by TigersEye (Regime change in the courts. Impeach activist judges!)
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To: Elkiejg
Bump and a bookmark. Plan on me sending this one to all my Vet friends!
39 posted on 01/28/2004 9:12:16 PM PST by NotJustAnotherPrettyFace (Alec <a href = "http://www.alecbaldwin.com/" title="Miserable Failure">"Miserable Failure"</a>)
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To: Elkiejg
Kerry was in Nam?

He sure ought to mention that!
40 posted on 01/28/2004 9:13:12 PM PST by razorback-bert
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To: OldEagle
FYI..while I'm searching.
41 posted on 01/29/2004 3:25:31 AM PST by MEG33 (America will never seek a permission slip to provide for the security of our country)
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
"You forgot to mention that Nixon, Kerry and Fonda all worked hand in hand."
You are right. Nixon got elected because he had a "secret plan" to get our troops out of Vietnam. The plan apparently included cotting our losses and giving upm oue POW/MIA's
42 posted on 01/29/2004 3:43:01 AM PST by OldEagle (Haven't been wrong since 1947.)
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
Your post #5 is right on target!
Thank you for pointing this out.
43 posted on 01/29/2004 7:40:17 AM PST by Jaguar Girl (America needs to keep our gov.'s promises to our Veterans.Thank a Vet & our Troops!)
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To: Nix 2; dighton; hchutch
When young Kerry returned to the States, he began protesting against the Vietnam War. On April 23, 1971, Kerry testified before Congress about atrocities he had allegedly seen and heard about.

My post on The Many Faces of John Kerry is germane.

Under military law, what was the duty of an officer -- Kerry, for example -- if he possessed such information?

It is the affirmative duty, under both the UCMJ and under the basic strictures of human decency, of any service member--commissioned, warrant, or noncommissioned officer AND non-rate enlisted person alike--to report any such action to higher authority if he witnesses any such action, or has reasonable cause to believe that such an action was committed.

If Kerry had real reason to believe this, then he is guilty of several serious felonies under the UCMJ, and can conceivably be recalled to active duty to stand court-martial.

"Following his investigation of the My Lai massacre for the Army, Lieutenant General William R. Peers and his investigative team made highly unusual and largely unprecedented recommendations. The Peers Commission proposed that charges also be preferred against a number of American staff officers, including the division chief of staff, the brigade operations officer, the task force operations and intelligence officers, and the division chaplain...

"One of the conclusions Peers drew following his My Lai investigation was that there was widespread failure to report suspected war crimes and civilian casualties, despite numerous directives and standing operating procedures (SOPs) requiring such reports. Even more damning was the conclusion that individuals within the task force headquarters took affirmative steps to conceal the massacre, including falsifying logs by changing the locations where civilians were reportedly killed. A staff officer involved in concealing a war crime may be prosecuted as an accessory after the fact in violation of Article 78, for misprison of a serious offense in violation of Article 134, or for dereliction of duty in violation of Article 92."

From "Staff Officer Responsibility for War Crimes,", LTC Michael J. Davidson, USA, published in the Mar/April 2001 issue of Military Review, the professional journal of the US Army Command & General Staff College. The full article is available at this link to the Military Review Website.

Do we really want to elect a President who could be readily indicted and convicted of war crimes by the very same International Criminal Court he would order the State Department to operate under?

44 posted on 01/29/2004 9:04:12 AM PST by Poohbah ("Would you mind not shooting at the thermonuclear weapons?" -- Maj. Vic Deakins, USAF)
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To: Poohbah
Thank you, Poohbah. We really need to get all of these threads tied together. If Kerry is the dem's nominee, there will be enough info in this one spot to hang him from the nearest yardarm.
Remember FR in 2000. We were strong then, we can do it again!!!
I have enough stuff on Kerry to do my own novel, and today, Rush had probably the best, (last,) half hour of radio I have ever heard about ALL the kowtowing Pubbies do to make stupid libs like them when it's never gonna happen.
He was talking specifically about the memos on Bush's Judicial nominees. His words were extrordinarily strong and I tried to get in here from my truck to log on before he went off the air to give him a BRAVO!!!, but I'm too late.
At any rate, he said we have the goods on them and by G-d, we should use it.
I could not agree more.
Kerry is a monster. Period. It's about time to get ready to take him on with silver bullets and a Court Martial would be about as pure a bullet as I know. Early enough to start banging on the DoD door!!!
45 posted on 01/29/2004 12:39:40 PM PST by Nix 2 (http://www.warroom.com QUINN AND ROSE from 6-10 AM-104.7 FM in da Burgh&WWVA AM)
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To: RaceBannon
Thanx for the ping! While I did not serve in Vietnam , my cousin did. In the same unit and at the exact same time as Oliver Stone. My cuz won the Bronze Star and was not in any way a crazed killer. He came home, married, raised two adorable daughters, one a nurse. the other a teacher, and just retired from a job he held for 33 years. Through people like him I have come to understand the vet's reticence about speaking of their experiences, but had I served as they did, with the honor and valor they demonstrated, I would be vocal in my outrage at the way their service has been portrayed for political gain. I would follow Kerry with all the determination with which the Furies tortured Agammemnon. Slanders such as his should not go unpunished.
46 posted on 01/30/2004 6:17:51 AM PST by xkaydet65
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To: Elkiejg
BUMP!
47 posted on 01/30/2004 10:15:20 PM PST by jmstein7
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To: Elkiejg
Bump! I believe there is film of John F-ing Kerry delivering his testimonial smear against the military in Vietnam. This film MUST be shown!!!
48 posted on 02/02/2004 6:55:37 PM PST by PJ-Comix (Saddam Hussein was only 537 Florida votes away from still being in power)
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To: jmstein7
So does anybody out there know if their is a FILM of John F-ing Kerry giving false testimony as to supposed war atrocities by U.S. troops in Vietnam? Remember, this phony testimony marked the first time Ketchup Boy came into public view.
49 posted on 02/03/2004 3:30:24 AM PST by PJ-Comix (Saddam Hussein was only 537 Florida votes away from still being in power)
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To: Nix 2

"In 1997, Kerry felt there that were no threats to the United States. This prompted him to place this statement in the Congressional Record: ''Now that the [Cold War] struggle is over, why is it that our vast intelligence apparatus continues to grow even as Government resources for new and essential priorities fall far short of what is necessary?'' (Congressional Record, 5/1/97, p. S3891)"

I have been reading online, and wanted to honestly offer you at least ONE spot on this post where you may be taking things out of context. If you follow the link below, and search 1997 Records for pages S3891 AND S3892, you will see that Kerry's message was not at all what you have implied.

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/crecord/retrieve.html

As you see, he is actually talking about streamlining and coordinating existing intelligence groups so that they can work more in synch.

"Every bureaucrascy seeks to increase the superiority of the professionally informed by keeping their knowledge and interventions secret. Bureaucratic administration always tends to be an administration of 'secret sessions' in so far as it can, it hides its knowledge and action from criticism."

His speech has examples, much like 9/11, where lack of coordination due to excessive bureaucracy lost the US its edge.

He was not, as seems to be implied, attempting to hack off an arm of intelligence for no good reason. This one sentence is presented far from its context.

Please follow the link and see for yourself.


50 posted on 06/04/2004 4:14:37 PM PDT by RNinNC (Politely Rebutting)
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