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FCC Is Investigating Super Bowl Show: Entire Halftime Performance Faces Indecency Standards Test
Washington Post ^ | February 3, 2004 | Frank Ahrens and Lisa de Moraes

Posted on 02/02/2004 8:08:45 PM PST by new cruelty

The Federal Communications Commission launched an investigation into Sunday's controversial Super Bowl halftime show yesterday and FCC Chairman Michael K. Powell telephoned Mel Karmazin, president of CBS parent Viacom Inc., to express his outrage, saying the entertainment giant should have known what was going to transpire during the show.

The FCC probe will encompass the entire halftime program -- including the brief exposure of singer Janet Jackson's breast and the sexualized dance routine precipitating it -- to determine if it violates indecency standards set in law and enforced by the FCC.

If indecency violations are found, each of Viacom's 200 owned and affiliate stations could face a penalty of up to $27,500. FCC officials said the agency may also pursue penalties against CBS and the individual performers, Jackson and Justin Timberlake

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: fcc; michaelpowell; nipplegate; superbowl; viacom
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To: AUH2OY2K
Joe Outrageous - "What? He showed that?! That's evil!!!! He needs to be fined and even jailed! Now where's that video again?"
51 posted on 02/02/2004 9:28:24 PM PST by Dan from Michigan ("There's no soap ever been invented that can wash that blood off his hands." - Gen. Patton on Kerry.)
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To: new cruelty
Go Michael! I hope he files a major suit against CBS/MTV. I'm sick to death of the crudeness. I'm not a prude, I don't really care what they do on TV during the time after Prime-time, but this kind of lowlife stuff being broadcast during the Super Bowl is way over the line.

The problem is, we have a lot of people who are so low class they don't see anything wrong with it. I guess when you are swimming in the cesspool, you can't tell it smells.

The worst part is it is so totally juvenile. Like a bunch of kids playing in their own dirty diapers.

52 posted on 02/02/2004 9:29:02 PM PST by McGavin999 (Evil thrives when good men do nothing!)
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To: unix
You know, we've turned off the TV and turned our back for too damn long. People who WANT to shock and offend others have taken over all the areas of life that used to be open and free and fun for everyone. Now it is nasty and dirty and dangerous. If you don't see simulated sex assault as such, you have been totally co-opted by the ugly attitude that is all too prevalent today.

If you want to PAY for porn, fine. But don't put it on the most-watched show of the year in America -- a slap in the face and a poke in the eye -- and expect it to go unremarked and unopposed.
53 posted on 02/02/2004 9:29:15 PM PST by Jerez2
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To: new cruelty
My venting was not directed towards you specifically. It was directed to all of us. I apologize if you took it that way.
54 posted on 02/02/2004 9:29:35 PM PST by PMCarey
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To: PMCarey
Go soak your head in some ice water.
55 posted on 02/02/2004 9:35:29 PM PST by SerpentDove (Today is the first day of the rest of your life. Don't louse it up.)
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To: Jerez2
Why can't we all file a class-action suit against Viacom?

And Janet & Micheal - please quit exposing our kids to your filth.
56 posted on 02/02/2004 9:36:39 PM PST by Fenris6
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To: new cruelty
January 28, 2004

House Panel Pushes TV, Radio to Clean Up Shows


House lawmakers on Wednesday called on television and radio broadcasters to clean up their act by instituting stricter standards after renewed complaints about the coarseness of some programming.

They expressed disappointment that big broadcasters were not represented at a Congressional hearing delving into the issue of indecency and faulted the Federal Communications Commission for not sufficiently enforcing its rules.

"I believe American families should be able to rely on the fact that -- at times when their children are likely to be tuning in -- broadcast television and radio programming will be free of indecency, obscenity and profanity," said Rep. Fred Upton, chairman of the House subcommittee on communications.

He said networks should review their codes of conduct and, in the case of live broadcasts, their time-delay procedures and redouble efforts to make them work.

Federal law bars the airing of obscene speech and limits the broadcasting of indecent material, containing sexual or excretory references in a patently offensive manner, to late night programming.

Upton and two dozen other House lawmakers are pushing legislation that would boost tenfold the $27,500 maximum per incident fine that can be imposed on broadcasters who violate indecency rules.

Rep. Billy Tauzin, chairman of the full House Energy and Commerce Committee, commended News Corp.'s Fox network for using a five-second delay when broadcasting live events to ensure indecent material is not aired.

READY TO OVERTURN DECISION


Last fall, the FCC staff ruled that NBC television stations did not violate rules when they aired the 2003 Golden Globe Awards during which U2 singer Bono shouted "f---ing brilliant" when accepting an award.

The five FCC commissioners are poised to overturn the staff decision, but it was unclear whether a fine would be imposed. A similar incident occurred during a Fox broadcast.

"I am sorry that this panel does not include witnesses from NBC and Fox because I would have liked to ask them about those broadcasts," said Rep. John Dingell, a Michigan Democrat. "The fact that the FCC did not penalize the NBC network is curious to say the least."

The FCC on Tuesday proposed fining radio broadcaster Clear Channel Communications $755,000 for airing, among other things, purported cartoon characters describing explicit sexual activities at a time when children were likely to be listening.

Parents groups are pushing the FCC and Congress to increase fines and hold hearings to determine whether broadcasters who violate indecency laws should have their licenses revoked or not renewed.

"The $27,000 maximum fine is a joke and everyone knows it," Brent Bozell, president and founder of the Parents Television Council, said in prepared testimony. "The FCC must get serious about revoking station licenses for those who refuse to abide by standards of indecency."

The legislation introduced last week would boost fines the FCC can impose to $275,000 per violation or up to $3 million for continuing violations. Upton said he was pushing to move the measure through Congress quickly.





57 posted on 02/02/2004 9:38:56 PM PST by kellynla ("C" 1/5 1st Mar. Div. U.S.M.C. Viet Nam 69&70 Semper Fi!)
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To: PizzaDriver

Janet "Just put some ice on it"
58 posted on 02/02/2004 9:40:25 PM PST by KingNo155
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To: Dan from Michigan
Good point. Guns are an important political issue to them, sexuality vulgarity is not.
59 posted on 02/02/2004 9:42:30 PM PST by RobbyS
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To: Fenris6
Why can't we all file a class-action suit against Viacom?

Sure....I'll just call John Edwards and Geoff Fieger tomorrow....

Is everyone becomimg a sue happy ambulance chaser now?

60 posted on 02/02/2004 9:43:26 PM PST by Dan from Michigan ("There's no soap ever been invented that can wash that blood off his hands." - Gen. Patton on Kerry.)
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To: ClancyJ; All
If NFL consents to such half time shows in the future, then they better throw up the parental guide initial "R" at the top of the show to, at the very least, give parents and anyone else, the fair warning to turn the channel.

I'm not surprised if I see something like this on a cable channel, but sure don't expect it during a commercial network show in the early evening.

Also was ticked off at Pepsi's commercial featuring kids that had been caught downloading music. I'm glad FCC is investigating. If some folks don't, then it's time for them to rally and have their friendly congresscritter change the laws.

61 posted on 02/02/2004 9:43:56 PM PST by uvular
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To: new cruelty
Well well well, all I can say is that the attraction of attention through nudity is the real perversion, because good causes and not flesh should be the focus of TV. I agree with the FCC there, except that it is going after white colar type businesses ... it would not do that to blue colar types.
62 posted on 02/02/2004 9:45:35 PM PST by JudgemAll
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To: thinktwice
Americans are theological fools when it comes to nudity...What we need is an FCC that fosters civilized behavior.

There isn't anything particularly civilized about a guy ripping off a girl's top. Although, I suppose since he fostered some nudity, that makes it okay.

63 posted on 02/02/2004 9:49:35 PM PST by Plutarch
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To: Dan from Michigan
You left out... In 12 years...

President Johan Granholm's husband of 10 years, noted pedofile / abortionist Seth Blofield and their second husband, renown lawyer Joseph Siflbaum, who made his name in the landmark case winning reparations for the family members of the twin-tower 19, were spotted on national television sodomizing a number of farm animals. When asked to explain their actions, they offered no comment other than, "it just felt good".

64 posted on 02/02/2004 9:52:05 PM PST by new cruelty (Better the devil you know than the devil you don't)
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To: PMCarey
maybe you also owe an apology to your kids for not having the guts or the self control to turn the thing off!!!!

Sorry --- that doesn't cut it --- not in this case. If I paid for MTV and then complained about it, sure --- I have the right to not buy it --- and I don't buy it. If the Superbowl had advertised that there was going to be live nudity, then I could change the channel or forbid my kids to watch it. This was all about deception --- putting this kind of raunchy act into something that is advertised as wholesome --- football.

65 posted on 02/02/2004 9:54:23 PM PST by FITZ
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To: FITZ
BTW. NFL.COM has nothing about the inciddnt on their website.
66 posted on 02/02/2004 9:58:17 PM PST by RobbyS
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To: Dan from Michigan
"Is everyone becomimg a sue happy ambulance chaser now?"

Nope, but its the only punishment these creeps will understand.

SOMETHING needs to be done - statements by Viacom & the NFL indicate they will just sweep this under the rug. America has a short attention span.
67 posted on 02/02/2004 9:58:23 PM PST by Fenris6
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To: Jerez2
Nah, I'm not buying that. Your watching CBS, what did you expect? There's plenty of other channels you could watch. You could have tunred the channel during the half time show; it's not like you were not aware sean combs, nelly (stupid name BTW), Jackson and kid rock were going be on during half time.

Now, the streaker, Yeah, that was unexpected. But not alot the networks could have done with that.

Please, take your morals elsewhere. I'm not buying into what your trying to sell; "take back the airwaves" through "outrage". Next thing I know, Ashcroft will be covering up statues due to some boobs...;Ooops, that's already happened hasn't it?

Yeah, let's have a morality police...!!!!!!!!!!!

68 posted on 02/02/2004 9:58:45 PM PST by Michael Barnes ( <a href="http://www.michaelmoore.com">miserable failure </a>)
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To: unix
Next thing I know, Ashcroft will be covering up statues due to some boobs...;Ooops, that's already happened hasn't it?

I don't know if that actually happened or was just a joke.

69 posted on 02/02/2004 10:00:21 PM PST by new cruelty (Better the devil you know than the devil you don't)
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To: unix
"You could have tunred the channel during the half time show; it's not like you were not aware sean combs, nelly (stupid name BTW), Jackson and kid rock were going be on during half time."

Wrong again. For one, I have no clue who Combs and Nelly are. Secondly, I have a right to expect that CBS will uphold the FCC decency rules for a sports entertainment event they know is watched by children.

Parents have a hard enough time raising their kids in this culture without being ambushed by Viacom-slime.
70 posted on 02/02/2004 10:10:57 PM PST by Fenris6
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To: new cruelty
I don't know if that actually happened or was just a joke.

Yes, it did happen. The reason was that the juvenile photographers for the news outlets just couldn't resist shooting pictures that showed Ashcroft's head between two breasts. They also did it to people in the Reagan Administration.

71 posted on 02/02/2004 10:20:37 PM PST by Dianna
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To: Fenris6
Parents should be aware. If their not, maybe they shouldn't be parents?

Secondly, the whole "right" to not be offended thing..please. I go back and say, it's CBS. WHAT DID YOU EXPECT? Seriously? If you expected CBS to give you an honest shake, well, I'm laughing REALLY hard at you right now.

Hope ya learned your lesson.

I wonder what a "tit" being sucked by a newborn would do to you in a mall somewhere..You gonna call the cops? Gonna go and get offended?

I have an idea, let's put all women in burqa's, it's the only sure way to stem this type of problem!

It's YOUR HOUSE; YOU control what come's and goes in and out of it. Please, let's not give the gov't another reason to control something else...Our viewing habit's will dictate what is aired.

72 posted on 02/02/2004 10:20:53 PM PST by Michael Barnes ( <a href="http://www.michaelmoore.com">miserable failure </a>)
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To: unix
I wonder what a "tit" being sucked by a newborn would do to you in a mall somewhere..You gonna call the cops? Gonna go and get offended? I have an idea, let's put all women in burqa's, it's the only sure way to stem this type of problem!

Straw man alert.

73 posted on 02/02/2004 10:22:51 PM PST by NYCVirago
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To: unix
Your watching CBS, what did you expect?

Please tell me which other CBS show has showed a man ripping a woman's clothes, the resulting nudity AND the woman's meek acceptance of it? Go ahead. They must do it all the time.

For some reason they were able to keep the camera off the streaker. They didn't show him at all.

74 posted on 02/02/2004 10:23:15 PM PST by Dianna
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To: unix
I wonder what a "tit" being sucked by a newborn would do to you in a mall somewhere..You gonna call the cops? Gonna go and get offended?

I have no problem at all with women breastfeeding in public. I have done it myself, and have never seen anyone wantonly waving their breasts around to be sexual in that situation.

Context is everything. Do I take my kids to art museums? Sure. That doesn't mean that Penthouse is ok.

75 posted on 02/02/2004 10:26:49 PM PST by Dianna
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To: kellynla; new cruelty
CBS had a seven second delay that they could have "cut away" from the Jackson breast revelation if they wanted to.

Seven-second delays are not SOP. The option is available, but it's rarely used unless the broadcaster has a reason to expect something bad is likely to occur (for example, during a car chase they'll turn on the delay so the public won't see the thief run over a pedestrian, or end up getting shot by the cops).

It's especially rare to have it used during sporting events, because a lot of people prefer to turn the sound off and use radio coverage as their audio while only watching the picture. If the radio broadcast and TV picture ended up being seven or eight seconds apart, the network would get tons of complaints.

76 posted on 02/02/2004 10:27:58 PM PST by Timesink (Smacky is power.)
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To: Dianna
Ripping a womans clothes...PLEASE..this was staged like there was no tomorrow.
77 posted on 02/02/2004 10:29:48 PM PST by Michael Barnes ( <a href="http://www.michaelmoore.com">miserable failure </a>)
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To: Timesink
It's especially rare to have it used during sporting events, because a lot of people prefer to turn the sound off and use radio coverage as their audio while only watching the picture. If the radio broadcast and TV picture ended up being seven or eight seconds apart, the network would get tons of complaints.

I'm almost positive they had this delay for the World Series. I can't stand the Fox announcers, so I tried to listen to the radio ones and there was definitely a delay on the TV broadcast.

78 posted on 02/02/2004 10:29:54 PM PST by NYCVirago
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To: NYCVirago
basis is still the same, breast showing. don't "strawman" me. At the time, almost all thought "pasty's" were used. Wasn't until drudge's links (and other's) that we knew different. House and TV are yours. It's up to the owner to make the decision of what to watch.
79 posted on 02/02/2004 10:37:31 PM PST by Michael Barnes ( <a href="http://www.michaelmoore.com">miserable failure </a>)
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To: unix
Did you ever consider decaf?
80 posted on 02/02/2004 10:39:02 PM PST by NYCVirago
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To: unix
Ripping a womans clothes...PLEASE..this was staged like there was no tomorrow.

Of course, it was staged! Did it LOOK like he reached over, ripped her clothes and left her breast exposed? Yes it did. That was the effect they wanted. The 3 or 4 seconds it was on the screen wasn't enough time to see the snaps which showed it was designed to break away.

My children didn't even see it, as they were both out of the room. We do have decency laws. I want laws enforced. If you don't like the law, then lobby congress to shelve it.

81 posted on 02/02/2004 10:39:11 PM PST by Dianna
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To: unix
Below are some of the Communist Goals for destroying America (published way back in the 60's) look how closely they mirror the libertarian agenda today.

--------------------------------------------

Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with "social" religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity which does not need a "religious crutch.

Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio, and TV.

Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as "normal, natural, healthy."

Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the ground that it violates the principle of "separation of church and state." Recall article 52 of the Soviet Constitution: "The church in the U.S.S.R. is separated from the state and the school from the church." (Article 52)

Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old-fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis.

Discredit the American Founding Fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the "common man."

Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them "censorship" and a violation of free speech and free press.

Compare the above list to some of the libertarian party's platform: -----------------------------------

the repeal of all laws regarding consensual sexual relations, including prostitution and solicitation, and the cessation of state oppression and harassment of homosexual men and women, that they, at last, be accorded their full rights as individuals;

the repeal of all laws regulating or prohibiting the possession, use, sale, production, or distribution of sexually explicit material, independent of "socially redeeming value" or compliance with "community standards";

We oppose any abridgment of the freedom of speech through government censorship, regulation or control of communications media, including, but not limited to, laws concerning: Obscenity, including "pornography", as we hold this to be an abridgment of liberty of expression despite claims that it instigates rape or assault, or demeans and slanders women;

We advocate a strict separation of church and State.

We condemn the attempts by parents... to force children to conform to any religious views.

82 posted on 02/02/2004 10:39:22 PM PST by johnmorris886
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To: unix
basis is still the same, breast showing.

Entirely different context. I would want someone who who defecated on the floor next to me in a restaurant to be arrested. That same individual in a hospital waiting room would deserve my sympathy, not an arrest.

83 posted on 02/02/2004 10:41:14 PM PST by Dianna
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To: unix
From "Slouching Towards Gomorrah.":

Libertarians join forces with modern liberals in opposing censorship, though libertarians are far from being modern liberals in other respects. For one thing, libertarians do no like the coercion that necessarily accompanies radical egalitarianism. But because both libertarians and modern liberals are oblivious to social reality, both demand radical personal autonomy in expression. That is one reason libertarians are not to be confused, as they often are, with conservatives. They are quasi- or semiconservatives. Nor are they to be confused with classical liberals, who considered restraints on individual autonomy to be essential.

The nature of the liberal and libertarian errors is easily seen in discussions of pornography. The leader of the explosion of pornographic videos, described admiringly by a competitor as the Ted Turner of the business, offers the usual defenses of decadence: 'Adults have the right to see [pornography] if they want to. If it offends you, don't buy it.' Those statements neatly sum up both the errors and the (unintended) perniciousness of the alliance between libertarians and modern liberals with respect to popular culture.

Modern liberals employ the rhetoric of 'rights' incessantly, not only to delegitimate the idea of restraints on individuals by communities but to prevent discussion of the topic. Once something is announced, usually flatly or stridently, to be a right --whether pornography or abortion or what have you-- discussion becomes difficult to impossible. Rights inhere in the person, are claimed to be absolute, and cannot be deminished or taken away by reason; in fact, reason that suggests the non-existence of an asserted right is viewed as a moral evil by the claimant. If there is to be anything that can be called a community, rather than an agglomeration of hedonists, the case for previously unrecognized individual freedoms (as well as some that have been previously recognized) must be thought through and argued, and "rights" cannot win every time. Why there is a right for adults to enjoy pornography remains unexplained and unexplainable.

The second bit of advice --'If it offends you, don't buy it' -- is both lulling and destructive. Whether you buy it or not, you will be greatly affected by those who do. The aesthetic and moral environment in which you and your family live will be coarsened and degraded. Economists call the effects an activity has on others 'externalities'; why so many of them do not understand the externalities here is a mystery. They understand quite well that a person who decides not to run a smelter will nevertheless be seriously affected if someone else runs one nearby.

Free market economists are particularly vulnerable to the libertarian virus. They know that free economic exchanges usually benefit both parties to them. But they mistake that general rule for a universal rule. Benefits do not invariably result from free market exchanges. When it comes to pornography or addictive drugs, libertarians all too often confuse the idea that markets should be free with the idea that everything should be available on the market. The first of those ideas rests on the efficacy of the free market in satisfying wants. The second ignores the question of which wants it is moral to satisfy. That is a question of an entirely different nature. I have heard economists say that, as economists, they do no deal with questions of morality. Quite right. But nobody is just an economist. Economists are also fathers and mothers, husbands or wives, voters citizens, members of communities. In these latter roles, they cannot avoid questions of morality.

The externalities of depictions of violence and pornography are clear. To complaints about those products being on the market, libertarians respond with something like 'Just hit the remote control and change channels on your TV set.' But, like the person who chooses not to run a smelter while others do, you, your family, and your neighbors will be affected by the people who do not change the channel, who do rent the pornographic videos, who do read alt.sex.stories. As film critic Michael Medved put it: ' To say that if you don't like the popular culture, then turn it off, is like saying if you don't like the smog, stop breathing. . . .There are Amish kids in Pennsylvania who know about Madonna.' And their parents can do nothing about it.

Can there be any doubt that as pornography and depictions of violence become increasingly popular and increasingly accessible, attitudes about marriage, fidelity, divorce, obligations to children, the use of force, and permissible public behavior and language will change? Or that with the changes in attitudes will come changes in conduct, both public and private? We have seen those changes already and they are continuing. Advocates of liberal arts education assure us that those studies improve character. Can it be that only uplifting reading affects character and the most degrading reading has no effects whatever? 'Don't buy it' and 'change the channel,' however intended, are effectively advice to accept a degenerating culture and its consequences. The obstacles to censorship of pornographic and viloence-filled materials are, of course, enormous. Radical individualism in such matters is now pervasive even among sedate, upper middle-class people. At a dinner I sat next to a retired Army general who was no a senior corporate executive. The subject of Robert Mapplethorpe's photographs came up. This most conventional of dinner companions said casually that people ought to be allowed to see whatever they wanted to see. It would seem to follow that others ought to be allowed to do whatever some want to see.... Any serious attempt to root out the worst in our popular culture may be doomed unless the judiciary comes to understand that the First Amendment was adopted for good reasons, and those reasons did not include the furtherance of radical personal autonomy.

84 posted on 02/02/2004 10:41:35 PM PST by johnmorris886
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To: E Rocc
Nobody is paying any attention.
85 posted on 02/02/2004 10:42:28 PM PST by rwfromkansas ("Men stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up as if nothing had happened." Churchill)
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To: thinktwice
While I have no problem with the performance. Broadcasting this junk during the family hour is unacceptable.

They should pay a heavey price for this.

86 posted on 02/02/2004 10:42:56 PM PST by blackbag (Don't worry about your backdoor, your front door is wide open.)
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To: Dianna
Exactly, YOU make decisions for your kids and yourself. So, if your kids watched the half time show, what were YOU thinking? You should know better with all the banter on this site about the alphabet soup networks..C'mon, you can't call me wrong on that one. The line up alone queued me up, and I am not especially into the "artists" anymore (yup, they mostly suck; on average --). I do however try to monitor what is coming in and out of my household. Don't you?
87 posted on 02/02/2004 10:45:57 PM PST by Michael Barnes ( <a href="http://www.michaelmoore.com">miserable failure </a>)
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To: FBD
Conservatives traditionally have advocated govt. intervention in areas of immorality (to an extent).

Just because there are lots of libertarians parading around as conservatives on FR doesn't mean you are conservative.
88 posted on 02/02/2004 10:46:14 PM PST by rwfromkansas ("Men stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up as if nothing had happened." Churchill)
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To: unix
The distinguishing part of our constitution is its liberty. To preserve that liberty inviolate seems the particular duty and proper trust of a member of the House of Commons. But the liberty, the only liberty I mean, is a liberty connected with order; that not only exists along with order and virtue, but which cannot exist at all without them. It inheres in good and steady government, as in its substance and vital principle. — Edmund Burke

Civil freedom . . . is not, as many have endeavoured to persuade you, a thing that lies hid in the depth of abstruse science. It is a blessing and a benefit, not an abstract speculation; and all the just reasoning that can be put upon it is of so coarse a texture as perfectly to suit the ordinary capacities of those who are to enjoy, and of those who are to defend it. Far from any resemblance to those propositions in geometry and metaphysics, which admit no medium, but must be true or false in all their latitude, social and civil freedom, like all other things in common life, are variously mixed and modified, enjoyed in very different degrees, and shaped into an infinite diversity of forms, according to the temper and circumstances of every community. The extreme of liberty (which is its abstract perfection, but its real fault) obtains nowhere, nor ought to obtain anywhere; because extremes, as we all know, in every point which relates either to our duties or satisfactions in life, are destructive both to virtue and enjoyment. — Edmund Burke

Liberty, too, must be limited in order to be possessed. The degree of restraint it is impossible in any case to settle precisely. But it ought to be the constant aim of every wise public council to find out by cautious experiments, and rational cool endeavours, with how little, not how much, of this restraint the community can subsist; for liberty is a good to be improved, and not an evil to be lessened. It is not only a private blessing of the first order, but the vital spring and energy of the state itself, which has just so much life and vigour as there is liberty in it. But whether liberty be advantageous or not (for I know it is a fashion to decry the very principle), none will dispute that peace is a blessing; and peace must, in the course of human affairs, be frequently bought by some indulgence and toleration at least to liberty: for as the sabbath (though of divine institution) was made for man, not man for the sabbath, government, which can claim no higher origin or authority, in its exercise at least, ought to conform to the exigencies of the time, and the temper and character of the people with whom it is concerned, and not always to attempt violently to bend the people to their theories of subjection. The bulk of mankind, on their part, are not excessively curious concerning any theories whilst they are really happy; and one sure symptom of an ill-conducted state is the propensity of the people to resort to them— Edmund Burke

I flatter myself that I love a manly, moral, regulated liberty as well as any gentleman of that society [The Revolution Society], be he who he will: and perhaps I have given as good proofs of my attachment to that cause, in the whole course of my public conduct. — Edmund Burke

In some people I see great liberty indeed; in many, if not in the most, an oppressive, degrading servitude. But what is liberty without wisdom, and without virtue? It is the greatest of all possible evils; for it is folly, vice, and madness, without tuition or restraint. Those who know what virtuous liberty is, cannot bear to see it disgraced by incapable heads, on account of their having high-sounding words in their mouths.— Edmund Burke

Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition to put moral chains upon their own appetites; in proportion as their love to justice is above their rapacity; in proportion as their soundness and sobriety of understanding is above their vanity and presumption; in proportion as they are more disposed to listen to the counsels of the wise and good, in preference to the flattery of knaves. Society cannot exist unless a controlling power upon will and appetite he placed somewhere, and the less of it there is within, the more there must be without. It is ordained in the eternal constitution of things that men of intemperate minds cannot he free. Their passions forge their fetters.— Edmund Burke

I have no idea of a liberty unconnected with honesty and justice. Nor do I believe that any good constitutions of government, or of freedom, can find it necessary for their security to doom any part of the people to a permanent slavery. Such a constitution of freedom, if such can be, is in effect no more than another name for the tyranny of the strongest faction ; and factions in republics have been, and are, full as capable as monarchs of the most cruel oppression and injustice. It is but too true, that the love, and even the very idea, of genuine liberty is extremely rare. It is but too true, that there are many, whose whole scheme of freedom is made up of pride, perverseness, and insolence. They feel themselves in a state of thraldom, they imagine that their souls are cooped and cabined in, unless they have some man, or some body of men, dependent on their mercy. This desire of having some one below them descends to those who are the very lowest of all,— and a Protestant cobbler, debased by his poverty, but exalted by his share of the ruling Church, feels a pride in knowing it is by his generosity alone that the peer, whose footman's instep he measures, is able to keep his chaplain from a jail. This disposition is the true source of the passion, which many men, in very humble life, have taken to the American war. Our subjects in America; our colonies; our dependants. This lust of party-power is the liberty they hunger and thirst for; and this syren song of ambition has charmed ears that one would have thought were never organised to that sort of music. — Edmund Burke

Liberty, such as deserves the name, is an honest, equitable, diffusive and impartial principle. It is a great and enlarged virtue, and not a sordid, selfish, and illiberal vice. It is the portion of the mass of the citizens, and not the haughty licence of some potent individual or some predominant faction.— Edmund Burke

"Statesmen, my dear Sir, may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand. John Adams

"The only foundation of a free Constitution is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People in a greater Measure, than they have it now, they may change their Rulers and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting liberty." John Adams

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams

"Religion and virtue are the only foundations, not only of all free government, but of social felicity under all governments and in all the combinations of human society." John Adams

"Man, considered as a creature, must necessarily be subject to the laws of his Creator, for he is entirely a dependent being....And, consequently, as man depends absolutely upon his Maker for everything, it is necessary that he should in all points conform to his Maker's will...this will of his Maker is called the law of nature. These laws laid down by God are the eternal immutable laws of good and evil...This law of nature dictated by God himself, is of course superior in obligation to any other. It is binding over all the globe, in all countries, and at all times: no human laws are of any validity if contrary to this... Sir William Blackstone

"Bad men cannot make good citizens. A vitiated state of morals, a corrupted public conscience are incompatible with freedom." Patrick Henry

"If thou wouldst rule well, thou must rule for God, and to do that, thou must be ruled by him....Those who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants." William Penn

89 posted on 02/02/2004 10:46:20 PM PST by johnmorris886
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To: NYCVirago
Did you ever consider decaf?

Gotcha, nothing to offer..strawman...de-caf...blah...

Have any original thoughts yet?

Wait don't answer...Not worth any of our time.

90 posted on 02/02/2004 10:48:56 PM PST by Michael Barnes ( <a href="http://www.michaelmoore.com">miserable failure </a>)
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To: FITZ
Actually, the Puritans were not near as restrained as we think they were; in fact, one man was excommunicated from his church in Boston for refusing to have sex with his wife. Heck, the Pilgrims criticized the Puritans because of their flashy clothes. They did not wear drab black and white like we think. It was only the Pilgrims who wore such austere clothing.

Many houses only had one big room, so kids often would hear their parents having sex etc. The parents would explain to the kids that sex was for adults who were married; the topic of sex was not ignored. It is unfortunate that the true Puritan is only now being realized by scholars, and today's kids are still being taught the old myths of these repressed bunch of fanatics.

And though things like sodomy and adultery were capitol crimes, rarely did they actually result in such a severe punishment. The Puritans were of the mindset that if one confessed and repented, they should have a lesser sentence. Suggest that today and one would be branded a lefty!
91 posted on 02/02/2004 10:51:14 PM PST by rwfromkansas ("Men stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up as if nothing had happened." Churchill)
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To: FITZ
But, getting back to the discussion at hand, the Puritans believed in enjoying sex within Biblical confines.

Exposing a boob in public and loose dancing would definitely not qualify.
92 posted on 02/02/2004 10:52:32 PM PST by rwfromkansas ("Men stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up as if nothing had happened." Churchill)
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To: NYCVirago
When P Diddy is your classiest performer at the halftime show, you have a real problem.

That'd make a good tagline...

93 posted on 02/02/2004 10:53:23 PM PST by stands2reason
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To: Dianna
That's just it..I don't want to lobby congress for anything. I want the RESPONSIBILTY placed where it should be, the home; the individual. But many think we should relegate Gov't to think for us. Pathetic in my opinion.
94 posted on 02/02/2004 10:54:11 PM PST by Michael Barnes ( <a href="http://www.michaelmoore.com">miserable failure </a>)
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To: unix
Gotcha, nothing to offer..strawman...de-caf...blah... Have any original thoughts yet? Wait don't answer...Not worth any of our time.

When you can construct a cohesive argument that doesn't involve setting up ridiculous strawmen, like objecting to nudity on broadcast TV during a sporting event equals wanting all women to wear burkas, then I'd be happy to have a discussion with you. Until then, I'll just laugh at you.

95 posted on 02/02/2004 10:55:03 PM PST by NYCVirago
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To: rwfromkansas
I think I used the wrong capital.
96 posted on 02/02/2004 10:56:24 PM PST by rwfromkansas ("Men stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up as if nothing had happened." Churchill)
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To: unix
A society in which men recognize no check upon their freedom soon becomes a society where freedom is the possession of only a savage few; as we have learned to our sorrow. Judge Learned Hand.
97 posted on 02/02/2004 10:57:04 PM PST by johnmorris886
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To: 3catsanadog; AUH2OY2K
I'd be very surprised if Hannity didn't warn his viewers before showing the film and the photos -- which is the whole point.
98 posted on 02/02/2004 10:58:44 PM PST by stands2reason
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To: johnmorris886
Spare me. Seen 'em, shake my head and wonder why someone like you thinks we should let Gov't dictate what we consume? We're talking about broadcast media. We have Gov;t saying what is good and what is not. How long till Gov't says the "Passion" (Gibson's film) is not acceptable? What about 9/11? We didn't see 70% of what happened that day (unless of course you were a residence of that area).

Too many years of democratic congress are the result of that list, but that's a different discussion. Rest assured, maintain a gov't entitiy in what is broadcast, that list will be rock solid in a few more years.

Side not to all..Wasn't the FCC origianlly encarnated to monitor the frequencies station's operated off of? How did they get into what's right or wrong?

99 posted on 02/02/2004 11:03:26 PM PST by Michael Barnes ( <a href="http://www.michaelmoore.com">miserable failure </a>)
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To: unix
So, if your kids watched the half time show, what were YOU thinking? You should know better with all the banter on this site about the alphabet soup networks..C'mon, you can't call me wrong on that one.

My kids didn't watch the half time show. But it did happen to be the topic of the day in 6th grade. I'm doing my best to raise decent kids, with decent values. It's tempting to lock them in bubbles and never let them out of the house. I can't do that. I restrict what they watch, I know their friends and we talk A LOT.

I can't fight this alone. We have laws, they need to be enforced. If you don't like them, lobby congress.

100 posted on 02/02/2004 11:03:43 PM PST by Dianna
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