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Bush's Guard service: What the record shows
The Boston Globe ^ | 2/5/04 | Walter V. Robinson, Globe Staff

Posted on 02/05/2004 7:55:48 AM PST by SpinyNorman

Edited on 04/13/2004 2:11:31 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

Michael Moore, the documentary filmmaker, started it, labeling President Bush a military "deserter" during an appearance last month with Democratic presidential candidate Wesley K. Clark.

Less incendiary was Democratic National Committee chairman Terry McAuliffe, who charged Sunday that Bush had been AWOL, absent without leave, while a fighter pilot in the Texas Air National Guard during the Vietnam War.


(Excerpt) Read more at boston.com ...


TOPICS: Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: awol; bush; bush43; bushrecord; deserter; falseattacks; gwb2004; hypocrisy; liberallies; militaryservice; nationalguard
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The level of subjectivity in this article is excessive, and, not surprisingly, typical for the Globe (the ugly stepchild of the NYTimes).

The boldfaced sections were particularly egregious. Can you say smear campaign?

1 posted on 02/05/2004 7:55:49 AM PST by SpinyNorman
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To: SpinyNorman
When an article starts off stating "Michael Moore, documentary film maker" you know there is a problem with the objectivty of the article.
2 posted on 02/05/2004 8:04:50 AM PST by stylin_geek (Koffi: 0, G.W. Bush: (I lost count))
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To: SpinyNorman
I'm amazed, even though I know the Globe is leftist garbage.

This is Grade A barf alert.

3 posted on 02/05/2004 8:05:03 AM PST by JohnnyZ
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To: SpinyNorman
Yes, President Bush will never be able to hold a candle to John F! Kerry's proud military service. [giggle]


4 posted on 02/05/2004 8:08:53 AM PST by Coop (God bless our troops!)
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To: SpinyNorman
His Alabama unit commander, in an interview, said Bush never appeared for duty.

Actually that is a lie. Turnipseed did not remember Bush showing up and even admitted that he (Turnispeed) was not around all that much during that time period.

5 posted on 02/05/2004 8:09:57 AM PST by Always Right
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To: SpinyNorman
As a Reservist, an "bad-year" is meaningless unless you intend to retire from the military. More than likely, the President tried to transfer to Alabama, missed some drills and was advised to meet his obligation as an Officer and Pilot, he had to have a certain number of points, he made up those point and left the Guard. Hell, I am eligible to retire and I have two "bad-years" I am trying to fix. I know people that have paid hell trying to fix "bad years" from back in the 80's. It is a clerical mess. Besides, now Bush's nominal CO from Alabama is back tracking, by saying Bush may have been there he is not sure. Why, because the CO or his direct representative signs the muster sheet. Only a completely nincompoop would not know one of his officers was absent. "Absent", AWOL and Deserter to not apply to "drilling" reservists. Those are active duty designations and do not apply to drilling Guard members.
6 posted on 02/05/2004 8:10:17 AM PST by jstolarczyk (jstolarczyk)
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To: SpinyNorman
Michael Moore needs to have an accident like the two military experts who were examining what really happened at Waco. The evidence allegedly showed shots being fired at people escaping the fire -- the fire was allegedly set after an invasion of the building by special forces troops. Two experts who were pursuing hard proof suffered heart attacks. Soldiers who were attached to the special forces teams during the raid allgedly died during training accidents later.

Moore is a big fat slob. 'Nuff said. Over and out.

7 posted on 02/05/2004 8:12:22 AM PST by ex-Texan
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To: SpinyNorman
A couple of points...The Dems always, ALWAYS..go way too far..inc aswe you haven't noticed...they've all basically come out and said that the Guard, and all who served..are shirkers...we haven't heard the end of this yet, believe me...it's gonna bite 'em on the ass, big time...also, wait till we start to get the statistics..from GOP spokesmen, about the mortality rate of fighter pilot aspirants..it's a staggering %...I remember seeing the numebrs once. if you applied to fly jets, you were 5 times more likely of dying, I believe..than if you were sent to Vietnam..also.Cleland is way over the4 top..he's gone nutso..because of his defeat, and he's gonna step in it..
8 posted on 02/05/2004 8:14:02 AM PST by ken5050
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To: Coop

Using her wealth and influence, she managed to garner support from American college campuses, advocating communism and encouraging rebellion and anarchy against the U.S. government. In a speech to Duke University students in 1970, Fonda told the gathering, "If you understood what Communism was, you would hope and pray on your knees that we would someday become Communist."

Fonda was the major financial support to one of the most damaging pro-Hanoi groups called Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW), which was led for a time by Robert Muller, a Vietnam veteran who had been shot in the spine. VVAW, at its peak membership, mustered about 7,000, some of whom had been indoctrinated in the "Coffee Houses." That organization was later led by Vietnam vet John Kerry, now a U.S. senator and former co-chairman of the Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs.

Jane Fonda poses for the press after a trip to Hanoi. She is sporting a necklace given to her by the North Vietnamese. The necklace was made from the melted parts of a U.S. B-52 shot down by Hanoi. While in North Vietnam, Fonda made radio broadcasts and propaganda films designed to break the moral of U.S. troops fighting in Vietnam.

9 posted on 02/05/2004 8:15:39 AM PST by kcvl
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To: SpinyNorman
WHERE was BILL CLINTON during the Viet Nam War???

What was HE doing in the Societ Union when he visited them at that time? You know, when they were providing assistance to the Viet Cong??

WHAT did Bill Clinton's MOTHER do in the Soviet Union when SHE visited it about the same time?

WHY are DEMOCRATIC war records not subjected to such media scrutiny??

And FINALLY, WHAT about those civlians "soldier" Kerry allegedy killed ???
10 posted on 02/05/2004 8:15:52 AM PST by ZULU (GOD BLESS SENATOR JOE MCCARTHY!!!)
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To: SpinyNorman
They are still insisting on trying to smear Bush with half truths and outright lies, I see.
11 posted on 02/05/2004 8:15:54 AM PST by Blood of Tyrants (Even if the government took all your earnings, you wouldn’t be, in its eyes, a slave.)
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To: Always Right
"Not observed at this unit" merely means that the officers felt that they were not qualified to give accurate and true evaluations. When I was in the Navy, anytime you changed commands, you would get an eval. Sometimes you would be with a command for a period of only a few weeks. The evals you would get would say "not observed at this command". Exactly as they should.
12 posted on 02/05/2004 8:19:56 AM PST by Blood of Tyrants (Even if the government took all your earnings, you wouldn’t be, in its eyes, a slave.)
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To: SpinyNorman
FOR THE RECORD

Dallas Morning News | July 4, 1999 | Pete Slover, George Kuempel
Posted on 02/03/2004 2:24:49 PM PST by MikeA

With the Vietnam War raging, 21-year-old George W. Bush wanted to join the Texas Air National Guard in 1968. He offered no aviation experience but cited his work as a ranch hand, oil field "roustabout" and sporting goods salesman.

He passed the written test required for pilot trainees. Among the results: He showed below-average potential as a would-be flier but scored high as a future leader.

Although Mr. Bush's unit in Texas had a waiting list for many spots, he was accepted because he was one of a handful of applicants willing and qualified to spend more than a year in active training, and extra shifts after training, flying single-seat F-102 fighter jets.

Once he was in, Guard officials sought to capitalize on his standing as the son of a congressman.

A 1970 Guard news release featured Mr. Bush as "one member of our younger generation who doesn't get his kicks from pot or hashish or speed.

"On, he gets high, all right, but not from narcotics," it said.

"Fighters are it," Mr. Bush is quoted as saying. "I've always wanted to be a fighter pilot, and I wouldn't want to fly anything else."

Such are the details that emerge from a review of Mr. Bush's service record by The Dallas Morning News, along with interviews with Guard leaders, former colleagues and state officials familiar with that unit.

Mr. Bush, 52, now the Republican front-runner for president, has repeatedly denied suggestions by political rivals that he received preferential treatment to get into the Guard - widely seen as a haven from which enlistees were unlikely to be shipped to Vietnam.

As evidence he wasn't dodging combat, Mr. Bush has pointed to his efforts to try to volunteer for a program that rotated Guard pilots to Vietnam, although he wasn't called.

"There was no special treatment," he said.

Mr. Bush said he took flying seriously. "You will die in your airplane if you didn't practice, and I wasn't interested in dying," he said.

Records provided to The News by Tom Hail, a historian for the Texas Air National Guard, show that the unit Mr. Bush signed up for was not filled. In mid-1968, the 147th Fighter Interceptor Group, based in Houston, had 156 openings among its authorized staff of 925 military personnel.

Of those, 26 openings were for officer slots, such as that filled by Mr. Bush, and 130 were for enlisted men and women. Also, several former Air Force pilots who served in the unit said that they were recruited from elsewhere to fly for the Texas Guard.

Officers who supervised Mr. Bush and approved his admission to the Guard said they were never contacted by anyone on Mr. Bush's behalf.

"He didn't have any strings pulled, because there weren't any strings to pull," said Leroy Thompson of Brownwood, who commanded the squadron that kept the waiting list for the guard at Ellington Air Force Base. "Our practices were under incredible scrutiny then. It was a very ticklish time."

Fellow members of the Bush unit said they knew of his background.

U.S. Rep. George Bush was at his son's side when he was made an officer in the Guard. The elder Mr. Bush, a former World War II pilot, later spoke at his son's graduation from flight school.

David Hanifl of La Crescent, Minn., an Air Force regular who went through pilot training in Georgia with George W. Bush, said the flight instructors were eager to fly with the Texan.

"He didn't get any preferential treatment, but some of the instructors liked the idea of scheduling him to fly with them because of his connections," he said.

Mr. Hanifl said it was somewhat unusual for a Guardsman to be included in the flight class with Air Force regulars.

"You had to have clout to get that type of assignment," he said. He added that Mr. Bush was a good pilot and did not seek any favors.

Also getting into the Bush unit in 1968 was Lloyd Bentsen III, a recent graduate of Stanford University business school whose father was a former congressman later elected Democratic U.S. senator from Texas.

The waiting list

According to several former officers, the openings in the unit were filled from a waiting list kept in the base safe of Rufus G. Martin, then an Air National Guard personnel officer.

In a recent interview, Mr. Martin of San Antonio said the list was kept on computer and in a bound volume, which was periodically inspected by outside agencies to make sure the list was kept properly.

Mr. Bush said he sought the Guard position on his own, before graduating from Yale University in 1968. He personally met with Col. Walter B. Staudt, commander of the 147th group.

In an interview, Mr. Bush said he walked into Col. Staudt's Houston office and told him he wanted to be a fighter pilot.

"He told me they were looking for pilots," Mr. Bush said. He said he was told that there were five or six flying slots available, and he got one of them.

While Guard slots generally were coveted, pilot positions required superior education, physical fitness and the willingness to spend more than a year in full-time training.

"If somebody like that came along, you'd snatch them up," said the former commander, who retired as a general. "He took no advantage. It wouldn't have made any difference whether his daddy was chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff."

Bobby Hodges, the group's operations officer, and others familiar with Guard rules said Mr. Bush made it to the top of the short list of candidates who could pass both the written officer test and a rigorous flight physical to qualify for the three to four annual pilot training "quotas" allotted to the unit.

Mr. Hodges and Gen. Staudt are the two surviving members of the military panel that reviewed and approved Mr. Bush's officer commission.

Most of those wanting to get into the Guard at that time, they said, didn't want to put in the full year of active service that was required to become a pilot.

Pilot aptitude test

Records from his military file show that in January 1968, after inquiring about Guard admission, Mr. Bush went to an Air Force recruiting office near Yale, where he took and passed the test required by the Air Force for pilot trainees. His score on the pilot aptitude section, one of five on the test, was in the 25th percentile, the lowest allowed for would-be fliers.

Ralph J. Ianuzzi, a newly minted Air Force captain, supervised administration of the test and signed Mr. Bush's score sheet, an event of which he had no recollection.

The pilot portion of the exam included tasks such as identifying the angle of a plane in flight after being shown the view from the cockpit and figuring out which way a gear in a machine would turn in response to another gear's being turned.

"That score for pilot seems low. I made that, and I'm dyslexic," Mr. Ianuzzi, a retired FBI agent who never earned his wings but said it was significant that Mr. Bush did. "He passed the most important test. He flew the plane."

On the "officer quality section," designed to measure intangible traits such as leadership, Mr. Bush scored better than 95 percent of those taking the test.

It's impossible to compare Mr. Bush's score on the test to scores of other pilot candidates, because Air Force historians say no records survive of average scores for those accepted to pilot training.

Pilot training

After completing basic training in San Antonio in August 1968, he helped out aircraft mechanics at Ellington until that November, when a pilot-training slot came open.

He was promoted to second lieutenant and began a 13-month pilot training program at Moody Air Force Base, in Georgia.

He was the only Guardsman among the 70 or so officers from other branches of the military who began the training.

Under the terms of his contract with the military, if Mr. Bush had failed to complete pilot school, he would have been required to serve the Guard in some other capacity, to enter the draft, or to enlist in another branch of the military.

After passing flight training, Mr. Bush was schooled for several more months at Ellington, and in March 1970 began flying "alerts," the name used to describe the 147th's mission of guarding gulf coast borders against foreign attack.

In those days, just five years after the Cuban missile crisis, the 147th kept at least two fighters ready to scramble, round-the-clock, guarding Texas oil fields and refineries against airstrikes.

"It's kind of a non-threatening way to do your military, get paid well for some long shifts, and feel good about your own involvement," said Douglas W. Solberg, now an airline pilot, offering his reasons for joining the 147th and serving with Mr. Bush after an Air Force flying stint. "It was a cushy way to be a patriot."

A former non-commissioned officer who worked on planes and supervised other ground crews at Ellington said Mr. Bush was not a silver-spoon snob or elitist, unlike some former Air Force fliers.

"I remember him coming down, kicking the tires, washing the windows, whatever," said Joe H. Briggs, now of Houston. "I'm probably one of the few people around who'll admit I voted for Clinton. But I'll pull for this guy for president."

No overseas duty

Mr. Bush's application for the Guard included a box to be checked specifying whether he did or did not volunteer for overseas duty. His includes a check mark in the box not wanting to volunteer for such an assignment.

But several personnel officers said that part of the application for domestic Guard units routinely would be filled out that way by a clerk typist, then given to the applicant to sign.

Mr. Bush has said that he signed up for but lacked the number of flying hours to participate in a program called the Palace Alert, which eventually rotated nine pilots from his unit into duty in Southeast Asia from 1969 to 1970.

His signup and willingness to participate was confirmed by several of his colleagues and superiors, who remembered the effort as brash but admirable.

"The more experienced pilots were shaking their heads, saying, "He doesn't even know where to park the planes,' " said Albert C. Lloyd, then head of personnel for the Texas Air National Guard.

Some attention has also focused on Mr. Bush's departure from the service. Under his original oath, he was obligated to serve in the Guard until May 1974. Instead, he was allowed to leave in October 1973 to attend Harvard Business School.

Former Guard officials and members of Mr. Bush's unit said that release, seven months early, was not unusual for the Guard. Mr. Bush's unit was changing airplanes at the time, from the single-seat F-102 to the dual-seat F-101. They said it made little sense to retrain him for just a few months' service, and letting him go freed spots for the Guard to recruit F-101 pilots from the Air Force and elsewhere.
13 posted on 02/05/2004 8:22:27 AM PST by goodnesswins (If you're Voting Dem/Constitution Party/Libertarian/Not - I guess it's easier than using your brain.)
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To: SpinyNorman
Who really cares...besides, everyone from that era knows why and how people got into the Nat Guard.
14 posted on 02/05/2004 8:32:53 AM PST by stuartcr
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To: SpinyNorman
I'm honestly curious....just what is the military backround of Terry McAullife?
15 posted on 02/05/2004 8:36:52 AM PST by Howie66 ("America will never seek a permission slip to defend the security of our people.")
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To: SpinyNorman; PhiKapMom
Let's pretend that Michael Moore is right. He's not, but let's pretend he is.

What is this supposed to mean? That Kerry is braver than Bush? That's about all it could mean. That's the point.

George W. Bush will always be a marked man. There will be people, mostly Muslim nutcases, that will be wanting to kill him and his wife and his children for as long as they live. Bush knew this when he made the decisions he did after 9/11. He knew that what he was going to do would endanger him and his family. Forever. His wife Laura and his kids that he loves will never be safe. Never.

I don't hear many people talking about this. What Bush did for Americans. He put himself in harms way. And his family in harms way. For his country. For us. If that's not bravery nothing is.

16 posted on 02/05/2004 8:39:46 AM PST by isthisnickcool (Guns!)
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To: SpinyNorman
Bump!

ANY VETS OUT THERE? PLEASE ADD YOUR NAME TO OUR LIST:


http://W-04.com

17 posted on 02/05/2004 8:47:35 AM PST by W04Man (Bush2004 Grassroots Campaign visit W-04.com for FREE STICKERS)
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To: SpinyNorman

Walter V. Robinson

wrobinson@globe.com

18 posted on 02/05/2004 8:48:26 AM PST by kcvl
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To: SpinyNorman
Lets do review President Bushs military service; HE WON TWO WARS!
19 posted on 02/05/2004 8:49:35 AM PST by SF Republican
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To: Always Right
His Alabama unit commander, in an interview, said Bush never appeared for duty.
Actually that is a lie. Turnipseed did not remember Bush showing up and even admitted that he (Turnispeed) was not around all that much during that time period.


Actually, Turnipseed has a horrible memory. I know him personally. My husband was full time in the Alabama Guard unit in question and served for 35 years. He worked with Turnipseed for years. Hubby was in Ops during the time in question. He said they had so many people in and out from other units making drills, it's no wonder nobody can say for sure who was where. The war was winding down and folks were getting out early right and left. As far as we're concerned Bush has proven his CIC ablity and everything else is irrelevant. The Dems don't want to put all their hopes in Turnipseed's recollections. Too many folks around here can tell tales about his absent mindedness.
20 posted on 02/05/2004 8:51:41 AM PST by Himyar
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To: SF Republican
Without even leaving the country!!
21 posted on 02/05/2004 8:53:21 AM PST by stuartcr
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To: SF Republican
I found this on GOOGLE...

Who is Terry McAuliffe and what is his military record? Anyone criticizing Bush *better* have a military record of their own or they need to STFU. Of course, Clark can talk since he has one, but even Generals have bosses. This guy makes himself sound like he negotiated peace all by himself.. Err, nope - even Generals can be middle managers.

Edit: Looked up McAuliffe's biography on the DNC website. Check out these credentials and then tell me whether this tool has the right to talk about Bush's record.


Current DNC Leadership

TERRY MCAULIFFE
DNC CHAIRMAN
Terry McAuliffe was elected Chairman of the Democratic National Committee in February 2001. He has re-energized and revitalized the Party, using new state of the art technology to connect grassroots activists with the Party's new information infrastructure. McAuliffe's "Project 5104" is the DNC's strategic plan to combine new technology with proven strategies for delivering message, mobilizing voters, and raising money. Project 5104 will ensure that our nominee for president has the best foundation upon which to build a victory.

Building on his promise of "A New Day at the DNC", McAuliffe developed a redistricting project to support the state parties during the reapportionment process; a new Women's Vote Center to revolutionize the Party's outreach to women voters; and a multifaceted Hispanic outreach program to communicate to the fastest growing ethnic group in the Nation.

To ensure that the voter disenfranchisement of the 2000 election never happens again, McAuliffe commissioned the DNC's Voting Rights Institute, which sent thousands of lawyers into the field in 2002 and set up a national voter assistance hotline. In addition to increasing voting participation within key communities, McAuliffe spearheaded the "Every Vote Counts" voter registration and turnout campaign.

McAuliffe has focused heavily on strengthening and communicating with the Party's grass roots. His technology project was a top-to-bottom overhaul of the Democratic Party's approach to doing business, linking millions of activists across the country, and increasing the Party's small donor base by 70%. In March 2003, McAuliffe spearheaded the creation of the African American Leadership Council (AALC) as part of a comprehensive effort to recognize the vast contributions of the African American community to the Democratic Party.

For the first time in Democratic Party history, under the leadership of Chairman McAuliffe, the DNC is debt free. The new 21st century Democratic Headquarters on Capitol Hill has been prepaid, therefore every dollar raised by the DNC during this cycle will be spent to win back the White House in 2004.

For Terry McAuliffe, love of politics and the Democratic Party is a family value. When he was growing up in Syracuse, New York, his father served as Treasurer of the County Democratic organization. From an early age, McAuliffe walked precincts and attended Party functions with his father.

After graduating from Catholic University of America, McAuliffe immediately became active in national politics, signing on with the Carter-Mondale Reelection Committee. It was during this campaign that he wrestled an alligator on a dare from a fund-raising prospect and he has been wrestling with tough challenges ever since. He has served as Finance Director of the DNC and the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, National Finance Chairman and then National Co-Chairman of the Clinton-Gore re-election committee. He also served as the Chairman of the 53rd Presidential Inaugural Committee. In 2000, McAuliffe chaired the Democratic National Convention in Los Angeles & the convention that helped give the Democratic ticket a 20-point bounce in the polls, on its way to a popular vote victory in the fall.

McAuliffe has been a successful entrepreneur since he started his first business, McAuliffe Driveway Maintenance, when he was only 14 years old. He is an attorney, having received his J.D. from the Georgetown University Law Center in 1984, and a business leader in the fields of banking, insurance, marketing and real estate.

Terry McAuliffe is married to the former Dorothy Swann and they have five children: Dori (12), Jack (10), Mary (9), Sally (4) and Peter (1). The family lives in McLean, Virginia.

22 posted on 02/05/2004 8:57:05 AM PST by kcvl
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To: jstolarczyk; SpinyNorman
AWOL and Deserter to not apply to "drilling" reservists. I was unaware of that but AWOL could mean almost anything. It is a term used for missing duty for unexplained reasons. Once I was on a temporary assignment when a need came up for me to go home for a few days.
I was in Colorado, home was in Mississippi. I spoke with my First Shirt and he informed me that (due to my "in training" status) leave could not be granted, but that he could give me a week off work. He told me to be very careful because I would be over 100 or so miles (i think this was the number)from my duty assignment, and that if I was caught over that far away I would be considered AWOL. I went and came back with no problems, but it could have been considered AWOL.
I said all that to emphasize the point that AWOL is meaningless unless it's in a combat environment, under fire. A bit like taking an extra sick day from work.
If he had been considered a deserter he certainly would NOT have gotten an honorable discharge. I'll bet that where you did not find him was overseas, protesting our government. You would also not find him giving political aid (or any other kind of aid) to our enemies; UNLIKE the "man" he replaced in the Whitehouse OR his potential Democratic rival in the next election.
23 posted on 02/05/2004 8:58:33 AM PST by GrandEagle
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To: SpinyNorman
Slander 'journalism' is all this is. And I think this ba***rd should be held accountable. You see this on a regular basis aimed at this President. They are very selective and distortive in their 'reporting'. And you may very well call it an outright lie. That's what it's about for these slimes. They need to be held to account. I wish the administration, GOP would get tough with these partisans. That article is slander, plain and simple. And funny how they seem to not want to give reports of how Kerry is involved in very controversial behavior right on returning from Vietnam. It will get out there though. Too bad for their 'hero', he is a phony, just like they are phonies in labeling themselves respected journalists.
24 posted on 02/05/2004 9:02:32 AM PST by bushfamfan
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To: stuartcr
Your right about who really cares. But I was around at the time and many of my friends served in the guard. Many later became cops and firemen, I never thought of them as cowards? I would be surprised if they knew anyone special.

I lived in Chicago at the time and if someone said that he became a electrician or carpenter I would really believe he had some strings pulled. You definitely had to know someone or pay someone. LOL
25 posted on 02/05/2004 9:02:51 AM PST by WHBates
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To: kcvl
Thank you for reminding us of the kind of company Kerry kept. Even now, he surrounds himself with the unpatriotic.
26 posted on 02/05/2004 9:05:28 AM PST by anniegetyourgun
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To: SpinyNorman
They just can't give it up. Even "George" magazine, in an article I printed from FR this morning (and intend to keep with me), concludes that the Globe is wrong.
27 posted on 02/05/2004 9:06:52 AM PST by CaptRon (Pedecaris alive or Raisuli dead)
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To: SpinyNorman
Hmmm, Bush flew a notoriously difficult to fly fighter jet, and Kerry drove a boat (presuming that he didn't have a sailor for a chauffeur).

Speaks volumes for skills, but Massachusetts Democrats are not know for their driving/piloting skill (Ted Kennedy actually confused the two at Chappaquiddick, when he turned an Oldsmobile into a submarine).

28 posted on 02/05/2004 9:09:17 AM PST by SpinyNorman
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To: SpinyNorman
Let's face it. The Democrats, along with their allies (the press), will continue to use this smear. It doesn’t matter what the truth is. The Democrats will repeat this until it is accepted as truth by a substantial number of citizens. That's what the Democrats rely upon for votes…the easily beguiled (among other things).
29 posted on 02/05/2004 9:09:43 AM PST by Jagdgewehr (One sword, at least, thy right shall guard, One faithful harp shall praise thee!)
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To: SpinyNorman
Bush seems to have gotten an "early-out".

So did Kerry.

So did Gore.

So did Clark.

Big deal.

30 posted on 02/05/2004 9:13:11 AM PST by onedoug
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To: WHBates
I graduated from HS in Tampa in 1968...no one wanted to go to VietNam, and it was extremely difficult to get into the Nat Guard without knowing someone. The only ones that could get in were already policemen, but that was mostly because there was an MP Platoon.
31 posted on 02/05/2004 9:15:58 AM PST by stuartcr
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To: stuartcr
Why and how folks got into the Army National Guard and why and how they got into the Air National Guard were a bit different.

Indiana Air NG and (as a previous posting shows) the Texas Air NG show that pilots were actually involved with flying to Viet Nam. There were probably other ANG units that had pilots doing the same thing.

I was coming out of the Infantry and was told to take a position in a Reserve unit or an Army National Guard unit in Indiana. I asked for a waiver because my employment was in Washington DC (where there were NO National Guard or Reserve openings of any kind at the time the area being overrun with draft dodgers of every stripe.)

My entire 4 years Reserve obligation was waived!

Dan Quayle got one of the positions I had rejected. He had not needed to use influence at all at that time!

32 posted on 02/05/2004 9:19:06 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: SpinyNorman
the combination of Kerry's service and Bush's spotty attendance in a Guard unit will make it difficult for the GOP to hold the high ground on national security issues..

That Kerry would pretend to lead the American Armed Forces after calling American soldiers butchers and giving aid and comfort to the enemy is the "dirty little secret" that the RATS don't want the public to think about.

33 posted on 02/05/2004 9:23:54 AM PST by Mike Darancette (Bush Bot by choice)
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To: SpinyNorman
Oh no, Kerry would never allow the Vietnam War to enter the political race. He said so in 1992:

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_020404/content/see__i_told_you_so_2.member.html

Kerry: "What saddens me most is that Democrats, above all those who shared the agonies of that generation, should now be refighting the many conflicts of Vietnam in order to win the current political conflict of a presidential primary. The race for the White House should be about leadership, and leadership requires that one help heal the wounds of Vietnam, not reopen them; that one help identify the positive things that we learned about ourselves and about our Nation, not play to the divisions and differences of that crucible of our generation. We do not need to divide America over who served and how."

He closed: "We do not need more division. We certainly do not need something as complex and emotional as Vietnam reduced to simple campaign rhetoric. What has been said has been said, Mr. President, but I hope and pray we will put it behind us and go forward in a constructive spirit for the good of our party and the good of our country."
34 posted on 02/05/2004 9:24:55 AM PST by eyespysomething (Another American optimist!)
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To: muawiyah
I agree, and there were probably regular NG units that went...my point is that in my generation, when you mention the 60's and the NG....most think about not wanting to go to Nam.....I have no idea why Mr. Bush went into the ANG, and I would not speculate.
35 posted on 02/05/2004 9:26:35 AM PST by stuartcr
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To: SpinyNorman
New York Times
November 3, 2000, Friday, Late Edition - Final


SECTION: Section A; Page 27; Column 5; National Desk

LENGTH: 539 words

HEADLINE: THE 2000 CAMPAIGN: MILITARY SERVICE;
Bush's Guard Attendance Is Questioned and Defended

BYLINE: By JO THOMAS

BODY:
Two Democratic senators today called on Gov. George W. Bush to release his full military record to resolve doubts raised by a newspaper about whether he reported for required drills when he was in the Air National Guard in 1972 and 1973.

But a review of records by The New York Times indicated that some of those concerns may be unfounded. Documents reviewed by The Times showed that Mr. Bush served in at least 9 of the 17 months in question.

Dan Bartlett, a Bush spokesman, said that Mr. Bush had fulfilled his military obligations "or he would not have been honorably discharged."

The senators, Daniel K. Inouye of Hawaii and Bob Kerrey of Nebraska, both Medal of Honor winners, were responding, in a telephone conference with reporters, to an article in The Boston Globe on Tuesday.

The article, citing military records for Mr. Bush, raised questions about whether Mr. Bush performed any duty from April 1972 until September 1973, when he entered Harvard Business School.

A review by The Times showed that after a seven-month gap, he appeared for duty in late November 1972 at least through July 1973.

Mr. Bush was assigned to the 111th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron at Ellington Air Force Base near Houston, from November 1969, last flying there on April 16, 1972.

In a report dated May 26, 1972, his commander, Maj. William D. Harris Jr., said Mr. Bush had "recently accepted the position as campaign manager for a candidate for the United States Senate."

Mr. Bush went to work for Winton M. Blount a few days after Mr. Blount won the Republican primary in Alabama on May 2, 1972.

From that time until after the election that November, Mr. Bush did not appear for duty, even after being told to report for training with an Alabama unit in October and November.

Mr. Bartlett said Mr. Bush had been too busy with the campaign to report in those months but made up the time later.

On Sept. 5, 1972, Mr. Bush asked his Texas Air National Guard superiors for assignment to the 187th Tactical Recon Group in Montgomery "for the months of September, October and November."

Capt. Kenneth K. Lott, chief of the personnel branch of the 187th Tactical Recon Group, told the Texas commanders that training in September had already occurred but that more training was scheduled for Oct. 7 and 8 and Nov. 4 and 5. But Mr. Bartlett said Mr. Bush did not serve on those dates because he was involved in the Senate campaign, but he made up those dates later.

Colonel Turnipseed, who retired as a general, said in an interview that regulations allowed Guard members to miss duty as long as it was made up within the same quarter.

Mr. Bartlett pointed to a document in Mr. Bush's military records that showed credit for four days of duty ending Nov. 29 and for eight days ending Dec. 14, 1972, and, after he moved back to Houston, on dates in January, April and May.

The May dates correlated with orders sent to Mr. Bush at his Houston apartment on April 23, 1973, in which Sgt. Billy B. Lamar told Mr. Bush to report for active duty on May 1-3 and May 8-10.

Another document showed that Mr. Bush served at various times from May 29, 1973, through July 30, 1973, a period of time questioned by The Globe.

36 posted on 02/05/2004 9:31:01 AM PST by holdonnow
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To: stuartcr
If a newspaper produced four tons of material there are some folks who will dismiss it all as a Democratic plot. I'm always amazed at how belonging to a party means you MUST be a true believe and put aside anything damaging to your own case or candidate and put aside anything positive that applies to the other. People are FLAWED. It looks as if he, like many in that era, wanted to get out of Vietnam and got enrolled in the Guard with his Dad's help. He was not the only one who would have done that. But dimissing it all as a big Democratic plot is not the whole story: there are some real questions about his military service. I don't think it precludes him from re-election. But if we were so absolutely tough on Clinton why shouldn't we apply the same standards to President Bush...unless we only apply certain standards to the other side.
37 posted on 02/05/2004 9:33:33 AM PST by jraven
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To: stuartcr
If a newspaper produced four tons of material there are some folks who will dismiss it all as a Democratic plot. I'm always amazed at how belonging to a party means you MUST be a true believe and put aside anything damaging to your own case or candidate and put aside anything positive that applies to the other. People are FLAWED. It looks as if he, like many in that era, wanted to get out of Vietnam and got enrolled in the Guard with his Dad's help. He was not the only one who would have done that. But dimissing it all as a big Democratic plot is not the whole story: there are some real questions about his military service. I don't think it precludes him from re-election. But if we were so absolutely tough on Clinton why shouldn't we apply the same standards to President Bush...unless we only apply certain standards to the other side.
38 posted on 02/05/2004 9:33:41 AM PST by jraven
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To: SpinyNorman
I see Kathleen Hall Jamieson's name popping up regularly in news articles concerning this presidential campaign. I personally worked with her on a Maryland democratic gubernatorial primary campaign in 1978. Just something to keep in mind when you see her quoted.
39 posted on 02/05/2004 9:35:02 AM PST by Jimmy Valentine's brother ("Never trust a RAT with anything" - Angelwood)
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To: jraven
Agree 100pct.
40 posted on 02/05/2004 9:53:41 AM PST by stuartcr
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To: stuartcr
There were no Army National Guard units that went. On the other hand many Army NG guys who missed enough meetings "went"!
41 posted on 02/05/2004 10:01:22 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: jstolarczyk
As usual, the Globe is either lying or stupid. You decide.

A "bad year" in the Reserves simply means getting less than 50 drill points and can be the result of any number of factors. Such a year does not qualify as a retirement year; you need at least 20 "good" years to earn Reserve retirement upon reaching age 60. I had several "bad years" because of moving and job conflicts, but still earned over 20 "good years" with which to have earned retirement.

But The Boston Globe -- stupid, biased, and utterly corrupt -- either chose not to learn these basics or else simply decided to lie to hurt Bush. Calling The Globe "garbage" simply slanders real garbage. And the Internet is shining a light on every lie they tell, now...

42 posted on 02/05/2004 10:03:17 AM PST by pabianice
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To: muawiyah
OK
43 posted on 02/05/2004 10:09:15 AM PST by stuartcr
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To: ZULU
While you are at it, just how did Max Cleland receive his war wounds. also like to know the extent of Kerry's. Just curious
44 posted on 02/05/2004 10:10:26 AM PST by estpeter (I HATE taglines.)
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To: jraven
If a newspaper produced four tons of material there are some folks who will dismiss it all as a Democratic plot. I'm always amazed at how belonging to a party means you MUST be a true believe and put aside anything damaging to your own case or candidate and put aside anything positive that applies to the other. People are FLAWED. It looks as if he, like many in that era, wanted to get out of Vietnam and got enrolled in the Guard with his Dad's help. He was not the only one who would have done that. But dimissing it all as a big Democratic plot is not the whole story: there are some real questions about his military service. I don't think it precludes him from re-election. But if we were so absolutely tough on Clinton why shouldn't we apply the same standards to President Bush...unless we only apply certain standards to the other side.

Point taken. But there are no "four tons" of material. A more apt comparison would be a loaf of stale bread. I don't see anyone on this site being disinclined to complain about the President when they think he is wrong, or flawed as you prefer. I personally find the illegal immigrant issue particularly vexing, and don't hesitate to harp about it. It isn't the story that is the "Democratic plot" but the fact that the Dems are pulling it out of their hindquarters again, trying to breathe life into an essentially dead story.

Since you insist on bringing in Slick, the difference between Bush and Clinton is that Bush took an honorable and legitimate avenue of avoiding going to Vietnam, if that was his intention (it would have been mine!). Clinton did not. Add to that the fact that he actively demonstrated against the US (between women) on foreign soil. At lease Kerry had the sense to do his dirty work on American soil.

Frankly, I am appalled (and Kerry used to be) that the roles of people in a war that is over 30 years old is even an issue. Kerry, McAuliffe, and Clark's resuscitation of the tired story simply shows the shallowness of their campaigns, and the fact that Kerry has to say the word Vietnam in every other sentence. As Hannity is fond of saying, the Dems have no new ideas. Attack the US, the President etc., all for political gain, with little concern for the direct and indirect aid and comfort their criticisms give the likes of bin Laden.

45 posted on 02/05/2004 10:21:30 AM PST by SpinyNorman
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To: stuartcr
Well I joined the Navy in 69 and was in boot camp with lots of folks avoiding the draft by joining the Navy? It was a choice they made but they also served. While I didn't joint for that reason I guess if I were running for office today I would be questioned about why I chose not to carry a gun in a rice paddy.

I did volunteer for PBR's but was rejected but was rejected because I was already in sub school. I am a little confused about Kerry serving on swift and/or PBR's. I was under the impression that most all that served and captained on PBR's were enlisted. Was he in the SPF (i.e. seals) or something?
46 posted on 02/05/2004 10:24:20 AM PST by WHBates
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To: SpinyNorman
My letter to The Boston Fishwrap:

Mr. Robinson:

You need to have a clue about the military to avoid again sounding like a doofus when reporting on military matters.

* "Points" are simply the number of drills completed. You make it sound like some sort of quiz show prize. That is just plain wrong.

* A "bad year" means having earned less than 50 retirement points in a year. It does not refer in any way to quality or quantity of service, only that that year will not count toward the 20 year minumum needed for Reserve retirement upon reaching age 60. Misusing "bad year" simply makes you look ignorant.

* "Cramming drills" into any particular year is simply rescheduling them, often for the convenience of both the service and the reservist. In my 21 "good years" in the Naval Reserve, most years were completed with rescheduled drills so my crew could fly together. Misusing a history of rescheds to show some sort of shortcoming where none may exists makes you look biased and unprofessional.

* That Kerry has publicly disparaged Guard or Reserve duty tells volumes about his character, and none of it is good. We Naval Reservists completed multiple tours in Vietnam. Mr. Kerry twists history to best suit him. In the Internet Age, that tactic is toast.

* Calling The Students for a Democratic Society an "antiwar group" is like calling The Arian Nation a "men's club." Similarly, Michael Moore is a "documentary film maker" like Leni Riefenstahl was a "documentary film maker."

Sincerely,

47 posted on 02/05/2004 10:25:39 AM PST by pabianice
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To: SpinyNorman
I just hope Kerry keeps repeating it over and over and over how he was in Vietnam. Rational people in the center will get sick of it like us.
48 posted on 02/05/2004 10:30:17 AM PST by petercooper (Tone down the garbage, the mean-mouthing, the tearing down of your neighbor and being so pompous.)
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To: SpinyNorman
"The two officers, one of them a friend of Bush and both now dead, wrote that they believed Bush had been fulfilling his commitment at the Alabama unit."

Next, the Dimocrats will be screaming that "W" had them both killed in an effort to cover up his service record.

49 posted on 02/05/2004 10:30:45 AM PST by Destructor
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To: pabianice
Great post
50 posted on 02/05/2004 10:31:50 AM PST by WHBates
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