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I Cannot Publish the New Yorker Article, but I can Publish the Link About the Passion Critique
mlmr | 02. | DAVID DENBY

Posted on 02/23/2004 7:58:27 AM PST by mlmr

Jim, I just read the Conde Nast Letter to FR requesting us not to exerpt or publish from their publications. I hope this is addressed. In the meantime it does not say I cannot link to an article for discussion and I think this is an importnat enough article to discuss and for interested freepers to see. If I am wrong in linking, I apologize, and pull the thread.

http://www.newyorker.com/critics/cinema/?040301crci_cinema


TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: catholiclist; condenast; moviereview; newyorker; passion
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This is a New Yorker Critics take on The Passion. Major Hatchet Job.

I would be intersted in your comments.

1 posted on 02/23/2004 7:58:27 AM PST by mlmr
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To: mlmr; Northern Yankee; barbcsr; Uncle Jaque; DallasMike; karenbarinka; dakine; lonevoice; ...
Ping to this URL for a Passion critique that cannot be published at FR. http://www.newyorker.com/critics/cinema/?040301crci_cinema
2 posted on 02/23/2004 8:02:12 AM PST by mlmr (Everything is getting better and better!)
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To: mlmr
Gibson, of course, is free to skip over the incomparable glories of Jesus’ temperament and to devote himself, as he does, to Jesus’ pain and martyrdom in the last twelve hours of his life.

As if that's not a worthwhile focus for a movie on Jesus. Gibson wants people to appreciate how much of a physical sacrifice Jesus' torture and death was, so we'd more appreciate the significance of it. He did it for us. He didn't eat bon-bons for us. He suffered and died for us.

3 posted on 02/23/2004 8:02:42 AM PST by GraniteStateConservative (...He had committed no crime against America so I did not bring him here...-- Worst.President.Ever.)
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To: GraniteStateConservative
I agree. Radica leftists seem to have a Jesus, Jesus Meek and Mild view of Christ. He DID leave the manger and changed the world.
4 posted on 02/23/2004 8:04:54 AM PST by mlmr (Everything is getting better and better!)
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To: mlmr
I cry whenever I think about the love God has for us, love so uncomprehensible to we mere mortals, that He gave us His only Son, to be born into mankind, only to suffer a terrible terrible death, all for us to be able to join Him in Heaven.

I cry because I have 3 boys, and if I knew their fate before hand, would I have been able to bring them forth into this world? God did, and did.

He knew what was coming, but He loved us so, He knew we needed salvation and redemption. Christ forgave all as He hung on the cross, dying His earthly death. What a lesson everyone should take from that.
5 posted on 02/23/2004 8:10:55 AM PST by eyespysomething (There is no threat. The Communists are not about to take over our McDonald hamburger stands. JFK '71)
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To: mlmr
while the Jews were cast into darkness and, one might conclude from this movie, deserved what they got.

Puh-lease! This movie will fuel anti-semitism in much the same way Tora! Tora! Tora! fuels anti-Japanese sentiment. If it does fuel hatred in you, then you already hated that race to begin with.

6 posted on 02/23/2004 8:11:05 AM PST by Lunatic Fringe ("Fellow citizens, we cannot escape history." -Abraham Lincoln, 1862)
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To: mlmr
Thanks for posting the link. The real thing the Passion is exposing is the anti-Christian attitude of the media.
7 posted on 02/23/2004 8:12:35 AM PST by King Black Robe (With freedom of religion and speech now abridged, it is time to go after the press.)
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To: mlmr
And against whom will the audience direct its hate?

My take is that hate and jealously and envy has driven the left so long that they simply cannot fathom anything else being the driving motive for anyone.

8 posted on 02/23/2004 8:17:14 AM PST by Blood of Tyrants (Even if the government took all your earnings, you wouldn’t be, in its eyes, a slave.)
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To: King Black Robe
Thank you King. Discussing the culural chasm and antichristian values is my own Passion. This reviewer excoriated the movie becsuse it didn't line up with his view of the world.
9 posted on 02/23/2004 8:17:14 AM PST by mlmr (Everything is getting better and better!)
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To: eyespysomething
I cry whenever I think about the love God has for us, love so uncomprehensible to we mere mortals, that He gave us His only Son, to be born into mankind, only to suffer a terrible terrible death, all for us to be able to join Him in Heaven.

I pity the people who lived before the time of Christ. Imagine the fear of death that they must have had. The ancient Greeks came to understand "the God of the Philosophers," but He's a mysterious, distant God. The best understanding that the Jews had regarding suffering was the Book of Job, where Job humbly accepts his fate. But we Christians understand God to be Love, a God who gave his life as a ransom for many. There is no greater love than this.

10 posted on 02/23/2004 8:17:17 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Blood of Tyrants
My take is that hate and jealously and envy has driven the left so long that they simply cannot fathom anything else being the driving motive for anyone.

The groundfloor philosophical tenant of Leftist radicals is power and hate and how they motivate history.
11 posted on 02/23/2004 8:19:07 AM PST by mlmr (Everything is getting better and better!)
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To: mlmr
Ditto,
Another hatchet job...today's Chicago Tribune
by Susan Thistlethwaite

Susan B. Thistlethwaite is president of the Chicago Theological Seminary

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/oped/
12 posted on 02/23/2004 8:20:06 AM PST by stanley windrush
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To: mlmr
Written by a true non-believer. It is Mel's hope that when people see the film and wee what Christ was willing to subject himself to, that they would want to know the rest of the story as to WHY Jesus did it.
13 posted on 02/23/2004 8:20:10 AM PST by Blood of Tyrants (Even if the government took all your earnings, you wouldn’t be, in its eyes, a slave.)
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To: stanley windrush
Chicago Theo....isn't that a Wiccan pesthole??
14 posted on 02/23/2004 8:22:45 AM PST by mlmr (Everything is getting better and better!)
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To: mlmr; All
Looks OK.

Everyone, please do not post excerpts in your replies.

Quoting the boss:

They said links only.

27 posted on 09/23/2003 1:52:41 PM PDT by Jim Robinson

15 posted on 02/23/2004 8:25:48 AM PST by Sidebar Moderator
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To: GraniteStateConservative
Gibson wants people to appreciate how much of a physical sacrifice Jesus' torture and death was, so we'd more appreciate the significance of it. He did it for us. He didn't eat bon-bons for us. He suffered and died for us.

Actually, the events bring the whole atheistic house of cards crashing down. One of their favorite wailing points is "How could a mericiful God allow (fill in the blank with whatever they want to blame Him with) this to happen."

But, to those of us who realize that it was our sins that were responsible for each lash of the whip and piercing of the thorns and nails, we know that God did not save His only begotten Son, so why should our lives be a walk in the park.

I asked Jesus how much he loved me. He stretched out his hands and said, "This much!" And then he died.

16 posted on 02/23/2004 8:27:38 AM PST by N. Theknow (John Kerry is nothing more than Ted Kennedy without a dead girl in the car.)
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To: Sidebar Moderator
Will do Jim. Jim do you have a theory of why CN and others are against the free marketplace of ideas?
17 posted on 02/23/2004 8:28:16 AM PST by mlmr (Everything is getting better and better!)
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To: mlmr
For what it's worth, I write scholarly books, and the basic copyright law allows brief quotations for purposes of discussion without obtaining any permissions. There's no definition of brief quotations, but usually a few sentences is OK. Longer quotations, especially from poems, require permissions.

That's my take, but of course folks should do what Jim Robinson and his legal advisers say.
18 posted on 02/23/2004 8:29:22 AM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: mlmr
David Denby, author of American Sucker. I can see how such a deep thinker might be offend by the The Passion

From Publishers Weekly "I wanted to be wealthy," Denby bluntly admits near the end of this absorbing memoir of the dot-com boom and bust. "I didn't make it." Like millions of other amateur investors in 2000 and 2001, Denby (Great Books) was swept along by greed, by the nearly messianic belief that the stock market offered easy opportunities for unlimited prosperity. Denby sunk hundreds of thousands of dollars into the Nasdaq, digested unhealthy amounts of CNBC and the Wall Street Journal and forged friendships with some of the era's brightest stars (and, later, its most public criminals). He lost his balance in the excess of the time-stock tickers in strip clubs; parties at executives' lofts-and then lost his money when the market crashed. ("The ax had swung," Denby writes, "and heads lay all over the ground.") Though exceedingly well written, Denby's portrait of the great "Dot Con" generally echoes the sentiments of other, similarly themed books about the period. The work is more appealing when Denby focuses on himself: he had nearly suffered a nervous breakdown when his wife of 18 years left him, and making enough money to buy out her share of their apartment was his initial motivation for investing in the market. Denby brutally details his decline, from a night of impotence to an affair with a married woman, then a six-month obsession with Internet porn-harrowing stuff for a New Yorker staff writer. His dissection of his own Upper West Side narcissism offers some of the most candid critiques of the Manhattan bourgeoisie ever found outside of a Woody Allen film. More of Denby, and less of the Nasdaq, would have made this good book even better.

19 posted on 02/23/2004 8:29:28 AM PST by CaptainK
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To: eyespysomething
I cry whenever I think about the love God has for us, love so uncomprehensible to we mere mortals, that He gave us His only Son, to be born into mankind, only to suffer a terrible terrible , all for us to be able to join Him in Heaven....

What an extraordinarily beautiful post. I so agree with all that you posted.

20 posted on 02/23/2004 8:31:41 AM PST by Republic
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To: mlmr
By embracing the Roman pageant so openly, using all the emotional resources of cinema, Gibson has cancelled out the redemptive and transfiguring power of art.

Bulloney. "By embracing the Roman pageant so openly" Gibson presents the truth about The Truth, bringing to life the scale of His sacrifice. There is no higher praise for a film of this kind than the pope's comment that "it is as it was."

Additionally, it is right of Mel to "dwell" on the last hours of Jesus' death since the Passion is at the heart of Christianity, along with the Trinity and the Incarnation.

21 posted on 02/23/2004 8:31:45 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: CaptainK
Wow! That explains a lot.
22 posted on 02/23/2004 8:35:46 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Aquinasfan
Please ping folks you think would be interested.
23 posted on 02/23/2004 8:38:37 AM PST by mlmr (Everything is getting better and better!)
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To: mlmr
Not once does the author make the connection that Jesus Christ bore those stripes for him, for me, for everyone. If you watch the movie, see what kind of tortures the God who loves you is willing to endure to spend enternity with you, and still spit on God and His love, then nothing will move you. It's a BRUTAL portrayal because . . . THATS HOW IT WAS! Perhaps those caught up in their worldlieness have ahard time stomaching the idea of a God - not just a "good man" - A GOD allowing himself to be killed as such? No wonder they criticize the "violence". God may have brought a message of love, but He certainly wasn't all "warm and fuzzy" and neither was his death. If you don't want to see what how God died, don't go.
25 posted on 02/23/2004 8:39:48 AM PST by realpatriot71 ("But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise . . ." (I Cor. 1:27))
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To: CaptainK
If his review is any indication, congratulations to his wife for leaving him. Why did it take 18 years?
26 posted on 02/23/2004 8:39:54 AM PST by stop_fascism
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To: mlmr
This is all good. Lots of people will be seen with a new clarity by lots of other people. I think this will lead to lower subscription rates for some and higher for others. Less money in Hollywood and east coast rags is always a good thing.
27 posted on 02/23/2004 8:43:55 AM PST by AD from SpringBay (We have the government we allow and deserve.)
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To: mlmr
.. But He was wounded for our transgressions; He was bruised for our iniquities. The
chastisement of our peace was upon Him, and with His stripes we are healed. .
28 posted on 02/23/2004 8:43:56 AM PST by joesnuffy (Moderate Islam Is For Dilettantes)
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To: mlmr; Jim Robinson
To: Sidebar Moderator

Will do Jim. Jim do you have a theory of why CN and others are against the free marketplace of ideas?

That was addressed to me, but I can't speak for JimRob. Ping!

29 posted on 02/23/2004 8:44:55 AM PST by Sidebar Moderator
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To: stop_fascism
'Tora! Tora! Tora! fuels anti-Japanese sentiment.'

I painted a Japanese Zero on the roof of my house and bought an anti-aircraft gun because of Tora! Tora! Tora!

The Japs are just faking weakness, so they hit us from behind when we are not looking!
30 posted on 02/23/2004 8:45:45 AM PST by RockChucker
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To: CaptainK

Here's the URL of Denby (above) pontificating on PBS about the making of the Titanic.

www.pbs.org/.../july-dec97/ titanic_12-22.html

31 posted on 02/23/2004 8:50:35 AM PST by Liz
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To: mlmr
are akin to the bloody Pop representation of Jesus found in, say, a roadside shrine in Mexico, where the addition of an Aztec sacrificial flourish makes the passion a little more passionate.

Hope the multiculturalists don't read this review.

32 posted on 02/23/2004 8:52:14 AM PST by stop_fascism
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To: Liz
Denby has dead looking eyes. He looks like a libertine.
33 posted on 02/23/2004 8:54:15 AM PST by mlmr (Everything is getting better and better!)
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To: mlmr
Opinion? This guy is an idiot. So is the lady(?) from the trib. Do any of "them" have a clue as to what Christianity actually is? If they do, they sure need a refresher course. Jesus went through hell on earth for us. I think this will make more people actually appreciate MORE how much He went through for us and how much He actually loved us all. I know I can always use reminders to keep me on the right path!
34 posted on 02/23/2004 8:54:27 AM PST by codyjacksmom
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To: Republic
Thank you.
35 posted on 02/23/2004 8:54:41 AM PST by eyespysomething (There is no threat. The Communists are not about to take over our McDonald hamburger stands. JFK '71)
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To: stop_fascism
Hope the multiculturalists don't read this review.


Actually I thought that the movie Passion was omnicultural....as is the Bible.
36 posted on 02/23/2004 8:55:48 AM PST by mlmr (Everything is getting better and better!)
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To: mlmr
Meek & Mild?

Jesus came into this world to fufill His Father's will...and that was to be the perfect sacrifice for mankinds sins..

Jesus also did this WILLINGLY

Jesus was brutally beaten and tortured before he was nailed to a most excrutiatingly painfull
and drawn out lengthy death

He bore this pain..without complaint or crying cursing or anger....he stood up and took this
mental physical and emotion abuse without a wimper....

There has never been a man on earth....as manly as Jesus Christ

He did this that we might not have be divorced from God and thrown into Hellfire for Eternity

Jesus told His disciples...that all He (Jesus) had to do was ask....and His Father would send
a legion of angels to fight for Him (Jesus)

A legion of God's angels would have little problem...laying waste to the entire planet and not even work up a sweat

As mankind will find out soon enough....

37 posted on 02/23/2004 8:57:35 AM PST by joesnuffy (Moderate Islam Is For Dilettantes)
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To: Lunatic Fringe
"Puh-lease! This movie will fuel anti-semitism in much the same way Tora! Tora! Tora! fuels anti-Japanese sentiment. If it does fuel hatred in you, then you already hated that race to begin with."

This is a load of "bull". What exactly is "HATE"? The business of "Hate" was there before Mel's movie.

Now what do you call removal of the Ten Commandments, giving sodomy a civil right, removing "God" from the pledge, perversion of the word and institution of "MARRIAGE", all of which is a "CHALLENGE TO CHRISTANITY".

You do not have to believe Christ, you also do not have the right to paint "HATE" upon those who do believe Christ.

38 posted on 02/23/2004 9:03:41 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: mlmr
Thanks for the link.

A very even-handed review, eh?
39 posted on 02/23/2004 9:03:53 AM PST by headsonpikes (Spirit of '76 bttt!)
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To: Liz; stop_fascism; Aquinasfan
This article is a better indicator of Denby's shallowness and sense of privilege

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A11639-2004Jan12&notFound=true
40 posted on 02/23/2004 9:06:42 AM PST by CaptainK
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To: mlmr
some of whom, with an ungodly eye to the commercial realities of film distribution, have prepurchased blocks of tickets or rented theatres to insure “The Passion” a healthy opening weekend’s business.

Or maybe because entire congregations can go see it together and then talk about it with fellow parishioners afterwards over a cup of coffee.

ANd at least these tickets will be used, unlike, say, the block sales of Hillary's book to union backers and supporters.

TS
...

41 posted on 02/23/2004 9:18:47 AM PST by Tanniker Smith
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To: Aquinasfan; GatorGirl; maryz; *Catholic_list; afraidfortherepublic; Antoninus; Askel5; livius; ...
(Denby's) dissection of his own.....narcissism offers some of the most candid critiques of the Manhattan bourgeoisie ever found outside of a Woody Allen film.

Nice work by the reviewer placing Denby in Woody's narcisstic orbit. In his court battle with Mia Farrow after she discovered Woody's porn photos of her daughter whom he later married (utter disgust), the judge alluded to Woody's self-absortion and denied him access to the child they birthed, and their adopted children.

The narcissism angle should spring to mind whenever the ragtag cadre of naysayers raise their self-absorbed heads to denigrate Mel Gibson's film, and demean Christian beliefs.

We need to hear from Christian psychiatric experts to explain the anti-social behavior of these disturbed individuals imbedded in our culture who continually tear America down. The only "belief" they seem to hold is abortion worship.

If nothing else, Mel's film is bringing these moral cowards out in the open.

42 posted on 02/23/2004 9:20:28 AM PST by Liz
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To: mlmr
The one thing that David Denby cannot tolerate is the idea of Jesus as the Lamb of God.
It is quite easy for Denby to accept Jesus as a teacher of a radical social gospel - which love your enemy certainly is - but to portray Jesus' death and resurrection as atonement for the sins of mankind would be to admit the truth of Jesus' other and most important message - that no one come to the Father except through Him. Denby has chosen to hide his dislike of Jesus as Messiah behind the screen of pretended shock at the violence of Jesus' treatment by the Romans. I doubt (but cannot prove) that until "The Passion of Christ" David Denby has never before criticized an 'R' rated movie for its violent con- tent. Perhaps Denby's greatest hypocrisy (and that is the essence of hiding the Messiah and Lamb of God behind the social reformer) is his pretended concern that children will be shocked by the movie. But perhaps Denby is concerned for another reason: his fear that children will be shocked into understanding that God was willing to allow His Son (in actually, to allow Himself) to suffer a fearful and horrible death for no reason other than His love for mankind.
43 posted on 02/23/2004 9:22:15 AM PST by quadrant
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To: GraniteStateConservative
Gibson, of course, is free to skip over the incomparable glories of Jesus’ temperament and to devote himself, as he does, to Jesus’ pain and martyrdom in the last twelve hours of his life.

The the New Yorker reviewer is hinting at, in my view, is that he/she would rather regard Christ as a really nice guy rtaher than the Son of God who suffered atonement for our sins.

44 posted on 02/23/2004 9:24:18 AM PST by Zack Nguyen
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To: joesnuffy
You wrote: "Jesus came into this world to fufill His Father's will...and that was to be the perfect sacrifice for mankinds sins."

I am seeing a lot of this in posts, and agree with this statement. But aren't we also missing an important piece here if we limit our response to the movie to just that?

There is more than a transaction going on that gets us off the hook, Jesus is also showing us the way to live. Grace and forgiveness cannot truly be received until it is also offered to others. The Gospels are full of this. There is the parable of the man who had a great debt forgiven, and then refused to forgive another.

I have seen the movie, and I have read a lot of the comments by others who have seen the movie. The challenge for me is that if I am a follower of Jesus, I am also called to live and respond in the same way. People seem to ignore this and only dwell on having received a gift.

Jesus speaks to this with his call to his disciples that they are not greater than he is and they should expect the same kind of treatment.
45 posted on 02/23/2004 9:26:48 AM PST by mongrel
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To: mlmr
Probably had to do a few lines before the PBS appearance.
46 posted on 02/23/2004 9:26:58 AM PST by Liz
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To: mlmr
"The Passion"
If you loved the Book, you'll love the movie...

47 posted on 02/23/2004 9:29:01 AM PST by MaryFromMichigan
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To: CaptainK
Nice read....thanks.
48 posted on 02/23/2004 9:30:10 AM PST by Liz
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To: Tooters
The Passion" ....If you loved the Book, you'll love the movie.

We need to get that on a tee shirt.

49 posted on 02/23/2004 9:31:32 AM PST by Liz
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To: mlmr
Surprise, surprise - - another politically correct Hollywood butt-sniffer, David Denby, thinks the Holy Bible is "anti-semitic". (yawn)
50 posted on 02/23/2004 9:31:47 AM PST by Lancey Howard
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