THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST.. (It's here!!).. Live thread!

Your Right Wing Chef ^ | Feb 23 2004 | Carlo3b

[AppyPappy]

The problem is that you have decided to get revenge on the Papists by trolling threads. Get another hobby.

[ArrogantBustard]

However someone is going to be held accountable for so much of the RC church (Mexico and S. America) holding Mary equal with Christ. Perhaps even superiour.

This is not a matter of opinion, on your part. It is a matter of fact: it is either true or false. So let's go to the horse's mouth.

490 To become the mother of the Savior, Mary "was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role."132 The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as "full of grace."133 In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God's grace.

491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God,134 was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854: The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.135

492 The "splendor of an entirely unique holiness" by which Mary is "enriched from the first instant of her conception" comes wholly from Christ: she is "redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son."136 The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person "in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places" and chose her "in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love."137

493 The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God "the All-Holy" (Panagia) and celebrate her as "free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature."138 By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long. "Let it be done to me according to your word . . ."

494 At the announcement that she would give birth to "the Son of the Most High" without knowing man, by the power of the Holy Spirit, Mary responded with the obedience of faith, certain that "with God nothing will be impossible": "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be [done] to me according to your word."139 Thus, giving her consent to God's word, Mary becomes the mother of Jesus. Espousing the divine will for salvation wholeheartedly, without a single sin to restrain her, she gave herself entirely to the person and to the work of her Son; she did so in order to serve the mystery of redemption with him and dependent on him, by God's grace:140 As St. Irenaeus says, "Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race."141 Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert . . .: "The knot of Eve's disobedience was untied by Mary's obedience: what the virgin Eve bound through her disbelief, Mary loosened by her faith."142 Comparing her with Eve, they call Mary "the Mother of the living" and frequently claim: "Death through Eve, life through Mary."143

Thus it is shown that the Catholic Church clearly and unmistakably understands Mary, the mother of Jesus to be a woman, a creature. She is specially graced by God, but in no way equal to God.So we see that your statement is, in fact, FALSE. You now know that your statement is false. If you have anything remotely resembling integrity, you will IMMEDIATELY retract your proven false accusation of "Maryolatry". To make false statements, not knowing better, is ignorance. Ignorance is curable. To knowingly make false statements is lying; it is bearing false witness against your neighbor. I'm sure you don't want to do that.

I await your retraction and apology.

[mercy]

I don't troll threads. This argument came up in context and is legitimate. I think it the height of political correctness to hold these types of arguments to be troll-like or forbidden.

[mercy]

Don't site church tradition and tell me you've proven anything. I wouldn't even accept the Bible if it had not been proven 98 or99% accurate through textual criticism and discovery of ancient manuscripts in modern times. But I do accept it and hold the Scripture infalible.

Mary was a decent Jew of the proper liniage to bear the Messiah. No more no less. Scripture is clear. Once you make her holy you go against all Scripture. The Messiah was the ONLY holy person EVER and he was because he was only half human and led a sinless life.

Once you sanctify Mary ... in the sense that RCism sactifies her ... you have left the track. Gone wholly wrong. In the name of this heresy you go on (RCism) and say Christ had no blood brothers. This is of course completely unscriptural so in doing you deny scripture and introduce the posssibility of more and more error.

Don't try and tell a real Protestant that he is lying when he recites straight doctrine. One of us is wrong. I'll take my chances with Scripture. You can rest on church tradition. We'll all know soon enough.

[ArrogantBustard]

You accused the Church of "holding Mary equal to Christ. If not superior". Those words are yours, and you CANNOT weasel out of them. I demonstrated the falsehood of your accusation. You CANNOT weasel out of that, either.

Now you can spin and sputter and stick your fingers in your ears and scream "I don't hear you" all you like, but your spin, sputter, finger sticking and screaming don't change the facts. I've rubbed your nose in the truth. Maybe you don't like it, but you CANNOT claim not to know what the Catholic Church actually teaches, and you CANNOT claim that her teaching is consistent with your accusation.

You CAN retract your false accusation. Or you can stand naked in the public square, revealed as a liar.

Your choice.

[mercy]

Sheesh! What a dramma queen!

You are playing semantics and arguing technicalities. Straining at knats and swallowing camels.

In my belief system if you pray to a dead person you are diefying that person. This is a sin. It is against scripture. You say the RC church does not deify her. I think it does and millions of RCs do it in practice every day.

This is just the tip of the iceberg fo my Protestant complaint against RCism. You make void the word of God with your tradition. In dozens of ways. Christ's very complaint against the religious leaders of his day.

You operate in the same spirit.

I'm not naked. I am clothed in the Blood of Christ. No Pope nor tradition necessary. Solamente Scriptura! (sp?)

[dansangel]

.45MAN and I are going to see The Passion with our church tonight. Will do my best to check in with you tomorrow ((((((carlo))))))). (As a coincidence, I've put together a thread on the Passion for the "Finest" tomorrow).

Ping to (((T.Smith)))

[ArrogantBustard]

You say the RC church does not deify her

Not only that, I proved it, by citing actual Church documents. Your spin and sputter don't change that simple fact.

You insist that the Church "holds Mary equal to Christ. If not superior", in the face of incontrovertable proof that the Church considers her a mere creature. That is not "arguing technicalities". That is deliberately and willfully misrepresenting the beliefs of others.

That is against Scripture. It is bearing false witness against your neighbor.

The issue here is not your Reformed Theology vs my Catholic Theology. The issue is your misrepresentations of Catholic Theology vs my accurate, primary source quoting of Catholic Theology. Capisce?

[Frapster]

My wife and I were discussing this the other night. Is this the kind of movie where you order a large Popcorn and a large drink? ;-)

[NYC GOP Chick]

Thank you. :)

[I got the rope]

Excuse me you are correct...she supposedly "Ascended" under God's power.. body and soul into Heaven. I believe Catholics have only been believing this as infallible dogma since 1950's.

[I got the rope]

My problem was that you told someone else in the thread that "It is not your place to judge, only God's." This is not a biblical principal. It is actually a misinterpretation of Matthew 7. Jesus was rebuking this man for judging others when he was doing the same exact thing they were doing. That is why he called him a hypocrite. So, when you tell us not to judge...are you calling us hypocrites?

BTW, I saw the movie today. If you have never seen violence, and you care not to ever see it, then don't go to this movie. The story follows the 14 stations of the cross, so I can see how a Catholic would appreciate this film more. I grew up a Catholic, but I am a Baptist now. I must admit that when Jesus reached the fourth station...I wept. This is a very powerful movie. I recommend it, and I thank Y'shua for my salvation.

From the footnotes:

Footnotes
1 [1-12] In Matthew 7:1 Matthew returns to the basic traditional material of the sermon (Luke 6:37-38, 41-42). The governing thought is the correspondence between conduct toward one's fellows and God's conduct toward the one so acting.

2 [1] This is not a prohibition against recognizing the faults of others, which would be hardly compatible with Matthew 7:5, 6 but against passing judgment in a spirit of arrogance, forgetful of one's own faults.

[I got the rope]

Catholic doctrine states that Mary was without sin...this is NOT found in scripture. As a matter of fact, scripture says she was a sinner, remember, she gave a sin-offering at the temple. Jeesh.

The Catholic Church is elevating Mary to the same level as Jesus by telling us that she is without sin.

BTW, Mary is found throughout the film, and is a key figure in the film. The fourth station of the cross is the most powerful of the film IMHO.

[Captiva]

Guess the lead moderator is a Roman Catholic

And therefore his removals are INFALLIBLE! :)

wheeeeeee! I looooooove watching Christians fight over Jesus! The self rightous on both sides will in all likliehood burn in hell for an eternity.

[Captiva]

John 3:16 clearly explains why Jesus died

Tell that to the guy in the rainbow afro sitting between the uprights.

[mercy]

Not fighting over Jesus. It's all the add-ons that tick me off.

[ArrogantBustard]

Looks like you didn't read my post from the Catechism, either. If you're going to rant against what the Catholic Church teaches, at least get it right!!!!

What part of "redeemed ... by the merits of her Son" do you folks not understand?

[I got the rope]

I've read the Catechism and your post arrogantbastard. What I don't understand and what many Protestants don't understand is why the Catechism conflicts with the Bible. We were ALL redeemed by her son. I find it difficult to accept the RCC's teachings if they conflict with their own Bible(Romans 3:23). and John 14:6

I have nothing against Mary, but she was a sinner just like us. Does not Catholic Scripture tell us this? I do not understand why Pope Pius IX found it necessary to issue the Ineffabilis Deus when he did. Why didn't the Church leaders do this earlier if they really believed it.

[sfRummygirl]

There ya go!

[carlo3b]

Our local theater suddenly announced a sneak preview at midnight last night because they are a sellout for the next 5 days..and my boys and I decided that we couldn't wait.. so we went, and we were not alone..

Thanks to Mel Gibson's masterpiece "The Passion of the Christ" my faith has been reborn. How could anyone that actually sees this movie walk out thinking of anything other than the world change in a better way because Christ died on the cross.

Mel Gibson succeeded in putting me in that moment in time.. Breathtaking, moving, frightening, lifealtering, and a total affirmation of my faith...