Posted on 03/05/2004 1:17:40 PM PST by presidio9
Moreover, the eyewitness accounts in the Gospels agree substantially. There are minor differences between the four Gospels, but that is what one would expect with differing eye witness accounts. This fact actually lends credence to their authenticity.
As Peter Kreeft says, those who question Christ's divinity face a "trilemma," Jesus is either Lord, liar or lunatic. Jesus doesn't exhibit any characteristics of an insane person, nor does he exhibit the characteristics of a liar.
Could Jesus' disciples have made up the account of the crucifixion and resurrection? Some of the Gospels date to within 15 years of Jesus' crucifixion. Witnesses were still alive who could have easily discounted a fictitious story.
Also, what would Jesus' followers have gained from promoting this story? Almost all of Jesus' disciples were executed. Why would they voluntarily go to their deaths for a lie? Moreover, if they were liars, they surely would have retracted their statements in order to save their own necks.
Could Jesus have escaped from the tomb? How could he have survived scourging and crucifixion, and then moved an enormous stone and eluded the Roman guards?
Finally, I propose the following argument.
1) The Bible is an authentic historic document (see above).
2) In the text, Jesus is quoted as saying that He will found a Church that the gates of hell would not prevail against.
3) A Church has been in existence for around 2000 years, with a public, non-contradictory body of doctrine and an unbroken line of leaders.
4) No remotely comparable human institution exists.
5) It is reasonable to assume that this institution is divinely protected, and is Christ's Church, as described in the Bible (considered simply as a historical document).
6) This Church teaches that the Bible is divinely inspired and that Jesus was crucified and resurrected.
7) Jesus was crucified and resurrected.
When a new diplomat arrives, the first thing he does is present his credentials to officials of the host country. The host diplomats, recognizing the credentials as authentic, know that the man who carries them is an authentic representative of his country. When our heavenly Father sends His Messiah, we would expect Him to have credentials, something only God could do. No man could before he was born enter into the written record a detailed description of his life. Our heavenly Father sent His Son's credentials centuries before His arrival: From the line of David: Is 9:7 "… upon the throne of David …" Jer 23:5 "I will raise up for David a righteous Branch." 490 years after the Temple restoration: Dn 9:24 "Seventy weeks of years are decreed … from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one." King Cyrus decreed the restoration of Jerusalem around 536 B.C. Daniel's seventy weeks of years (seventy times seven, 490 years) brought us to within a half century of Jesus' arrival. Massacre of innocents: Jer 31:15 "Thus says the Lord: 'Rachel is weeping for her children.'" Praised by little children: Ps 8:1 "Thou whose glory above the heavens is chanted by the mouth of babes and infants …" Rejected by His own people: Is 53:3 "He was despised and rejected by men." Riding to Jerusalem: Zec 9:9 "Lo, your king comes to you; triumphant and victorious is he, humbling and riding on an ass, on a colt the foal of an ass." New covenant: Je 31:31 "I will make a new covenant." Betrayed by a friend: Ps 41:9 "Even my bosom friend in whom I trusted, who ate of my bread, has lifted his heel against me." Thirty pieces of silver: Zec 11:12 "And they weighed out as my wages thirty shekels of silver." Died to redeem us: Is 53:5 "He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that made us whole." His bones would not be broken: Ex 12:46 "You shall not break a bone of [the paschal lamb]. Nm 9:12 "…nor break a bone of it …" Ps 34:20 "He keeps all his bones; not one of them is broken."
Jesus from the cross said, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani, "My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?" At that time the psalms had not been numbered. Jews then knew all the psalms, and referred to a particular psalm by its first few words. In that way Jesus reminded us of the stunning prophecy in Psalm 22: "They divide my garments among them, and for my raiment they cast lots."
A thousand years of these canonical prophecies of the Messiah stopped completely, shortly before Jesus of Nazareth arrived.
Our heavenly Father allowed His Messiah to speak to us directly from the Book of Proverbs, 8:22 "The Lord created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old. Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. When there were no depths I was brought forth … When he established the heavens, I was there … when he marked out the foundations of the earth, then I was beside him, like a master workman."
Our Father added to His Messiah's credentials by pre-figuring Him throughout man's history. When Cain murdered the good shepherd Abel, God told him, Gn 4:10 "The voice of your brother's blood is crying to me from the ground." The Book of Hebrews speaks of, 12:24 "…[Christ's] sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel." When Abram returned from his victory over Chedorlaomer, Gn 14:18 "Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine." Salem is shalom, Hebrew for peace, and foreshadows Isaiah's 9:6 Prince of Peace. Jesus was also pre-figured in Abraham's near-sacrifice of his only son; Abraham told young Isaac, Gn 22:8 "God will provide Himself the lamb for a burnt offering." But Jesus was most pre-figured in Moses. Moses interceded with Our Father in heaven for his people, who did not pray for themselves, just as Jesus interceded for us with the Father. Moses pre-figured Jesus' 40-day fast: Ex 34:28 "[Moses] was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water." Mt 4:2 "[Jesus] fasted for forty days and forty nights." Moses pre-figured Jesus' transfiguration: Ex 34:29 "When Moses came down from Mount Sinai … the skin of his face shone because he had been talking with God." Mt 17:2 "[Jesus] was transfigured before them, and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became white as light."
Full Text
He was never crucified
"On the eve of Passover Jesus was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Anyone who can say anything in his favor let him come forward and plead on his behalf." But since nothing was brought forward in his favor, he was hanged on the eve of Passover. Ulla retorted: Do you suppose he was one for whom a defense could be made? Was he not a mesith (enticer), concerning whom Scripture says, "Neither shall thou spare nor shall thou conceal him?" With Jesus, however, it was different, for he was connected with the government.
(Sanhedrin 43a) "
Jesus in the Talmud
Maybe they didn't exist either. In fact, maybe that Bible sitting on your desk is a figment of your imagination. < /hardcore sarcasm > (Which I probably should refrain from right now, but I'm weak - I can't help it. I believe I've seen everything at this point.)
Yes, his religious philosphy is a sad one. Like a lot of Jews, he has chosen to ignore the the many admirable qualities of his religous tradition and instead practice a bastardized form of worship based on a persecution fixation. Rather than studying the Talumd, which fortells Christ, he spends his time looking for holes in the New Testament. Unfortunately, he is not a very good detective. My favorite moment of ignorance by him is when he points claims Josephus was a forgery. Unfortunately, this ignores the fact that Josephus was handed down and preserved by both the Greeks and the Arabs, and Jesus appears in both written accounts independantly. Even if the Church could somehow go back and insert Christ into the Josephus accounts it supposedly controlled, the fact remains, that a historical Jesus was of much less value to the arabs, yet he appears there too. That Jesus existed as a man is an historical fact. Only the ignorant would argue otherwise. You are right to feel sorry for him, but he rejects your sympathy.
The movie has an unflattering role for SOME Jews beyond what the Gospels suggest.
It also has a sympathetic role for SOME OTHER Jews beyond what the Gospels suggest.
Unfortunately, he's serious.
He's right about the wealth of Documentation in the Talmud. Unfortunately, that hurts his argument.
Don't you get it? Judaism for him is about suffering and trying to discredit Christianity. More scholarly men than him have tried.
How many copies of books about Tom Sawyer exist? What about the Wizard of Oz? What about Sherlock Holmes? Tarzan? James Bond?
Does this mean these were real people?
Moreover, the eyewitness accounts in the Gospels agree substantially. There are minor differences between the four Gospels, but that is what one would expect with differing eye witness accounts. This fact actually lends credence to their authenticity.
You are counting only the four canonized Gospels, three of which are mostly likely copied from the same source. There were many other Gospels written with much different accounts. For example, the "Gospel of Peter" claimed that Herod Antipas was the man who judged Jesus, not Caiaphas. Only the books that basically agreed were canonized.
Paul supposedly lived in Jersualem when Jesus was welcomed by "multitudes" shouting "hosheanna," and yet he seemed to have no personal recollection of Jesus. How can that be?
As Peter Kreeft says, those who question Christ's divinity face a "trilemma," Jesus is either Lord, liar or lunatic.
Or a myth.
Could Jesus' disciples have made up the account of the crucifixion and resurrection?
What disciples? In the Gospels, Jesus had twelve apostles who followed him, but Pauls meets only Peter and John.
I have a question. Does Paul ever meet anyone who knew Jesus in life, other than Peter, John and James? Do any of the thousands of people who met Jesus in life ever appear in the later books of the New Testament?
Some of the Gospels date to within 15 years of Jesus' crucifixion.
The year of the crucifixion has to be theorized because the Gospel writers obviously did not know it. How is that possible?
3) A Church has been in existence for around 2000 years, with a public, non-contradictory body of doctrine and an unbroken line of leaders.
If you mean the Catholic Church, it is actually older than Christianity. Christ simply replaced the pagan gods that were worshipped on Vatican hill before.
This is nothing but a personal attack. You do not know anything about my religious practice, nor is it your business.
It is OK for you to say Jesus was the Messiah, but not OK for me to disagree. Is that it?
Rather than studying the Talumd, which fortells Christ,
Huh?
My favorite moment of ignorance by him is when he points claims Josephus was a forgery.
Another misquote by you (big surprise). I did not say ALL of Josephus is a forgery, I said the passages about Jesus are a forgery. This is widely believed by historians. Even the Catholic Encyclopedia admits that authenticity Josephus' references to Jesus is in dispute.
Unfortunately, this ignores the fact that Josephus was handed down and preserved by both the Greeks and the Arabs, and Jesus appears in both written accounts independantly.
The reference to Jesus in the Greek copies of Josephus is much different than in the Arabic copies, which leads scholars to question its authenticity.
What words? Are you disputing my statement that there is no record of anything Jesus said in the Aramaic language? Are you disputing that no one knows exactly what year Jesus was crucified? Are you disputing that it is impossible to match Jesus birth with any known census?
It is OK for you to say Jesus was the Messiah, but not OK for me to disagree. Is that it?
I know what I see. You have invested a great deal of time in attacking Jesus Christ. To what end? What does it get you? Nobody is demanding that you accept the Truth. It is ok for you to say or think anything you want. But you better be right, and you better make valid points. You fail to do so, as we will see.
Another misquote by you (big surprise). I did not say ALL of Josephus is a forgery, I said the passages about Jesus are a forgery. This is widely believed by historians. Even the Catholic Encyclopedia admits that authenticity Josephus' references to Jesus is in dispute.
The dispute is as to whether Josepus called Jesus the Son of God, not as to whether he mentions Him at all. He does, there's no denying it. Though Josephus is useful for putting Christ's life into historical context, Christianity does not have much other use for him. He was not a follower.
The reference to Jesus in the Greek copies of Josephus is much different than in the Arabic copies, which leads scholars to question its authenticity.
You made the claim that Christ was not an historical person. If Christ were not an historical person, there would be no reason for the arabs to insert Him into the story in the same place independantly. Since He is there for the arabs, He can not have been a Roman fabrication. Therefore, He existed. End of Story.
Do these stories claim to record historical events?
You are counting only the four canonized Gospels, three of which are mostly likely copied from the same source. There were many other Gospels written with much different accounts. For example, the "Gospel of Peter" claimed that Herod Antipas was the man who judged Jesus, not Caiaphas. Only the books that basically agreed were canonized.
How many copies of these exist in comparison to the writings of the New Testament? There was a consensus regarding legitimate apostolic writings from the earliest times, although a handful of false gospels were in circulation.
Paul supposedly lived in Jersualem when Jesus was welcomed by "multitudes" shouting "hosheanna," and yet he seemed to have no personal recollection of Jesus. How can that be?
He was an enemy of Jesus at the time. He became a Christian after the Resurrection.
Or a myth.
Josephus writes about Jesus, and his account conforms with the Gospel accounts. Is Josephus a myth too?
At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus, and his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon their loyalty to him. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive. Accordingly they believed that he was the Messiah, concerning whom the Prophets have recounted wonders.Another take on Josephus' account
What disciples? In the Gospels, Jesus had twelve apostles who followed him, but Pauls meets only Peter and John.
So?
I have a question. Does Paul ever meet anyone who knew Jesus in life, other than Peter, John and James? Do any of the thousands of people who met Jesus in life ever appear in the later books of the New Testament?
I don't know, I wasn't there. What difference would it make? Paul was concerned with handing on Christ's teaching.
The year of the crucifixion has to be theorized because the Gospel writers obviously did not know it. How is that possible?
Are you talking about the timing of the crucifixion in relation to Passover?
If you mean the Catholic Church, it is actually older than Christianity. Christ simply replaced the pagan gods that were worshipped on Vatican hill before.
The list of popes, dating back to Peter, is a historical fact.
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