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Orson Scott Card: On Fairness and Families [Gay Marriage]
The Ornery American ^ | March 28, 2004 | Orson Scott Card

Posted on 04/06/2004 11:31:52 AM PDT by Tolik

The single most effective argument being used to gain support for the redefinition of marriage to mean anything, therefore nothing, is this:

"It's not fair that homosexuals can't get married just like heterosexuals."

This argument is only effective because nobody is bothering to define "fairness" or to figure out whether the result will be in any way more fair than the hitherto universal definition of marriage.

*

When our kids were little, we made it a very clear rule in our family that fairness didn't mean that everybody got exactly what anybody else got.

"Suppose we buy a dress for your sister," I said to my son. "Would you want us to get a dress for you too?"

"No, but I want clothes."

"Of course. But it doesn't have to be the same day, and it doesn't have to cost the same."

In particular, I pointed out to the kids that when I was traveling, sometimes I'd find something that was just perfect for one of kids -- or for their mother.

"If that happens," I said, "I'll come home with a present for that person. It doesn't mean I don't love the others just as much. And it isn't unfair. What would be unfair is if I couldn't buy that perfect gift for one person just because it would make the others jealous."

They got it. And in the long run, they recognized that people with different needs can't be treated exactly alike. In fact, it would be grossly unfair even to try.

For instance, our handicapped son, Charlie Ben, never got to run, or build with blocks, or go on a date with a girl -- and not because he didn't want to.

But we taught our other kids that they had no reason to feel guilty just because they could do things their brother couldn't do. Nor was there any reason to hide from him the fact that there were activities he couldn't take part in.

Instead, we provided for Charlie Ben everything that he could reasonably use, and showed our love for him in every way we could. He had the best life that we could put within his reach, and if sometimes he was sad, he was never resentful of his brother and sisters. Instead he delighted in the good things they did and was glad for them. They also rejoiced with him over his triumphs, even though they were things that they could do easily.

If we had demanded that Charlie Ben do everything his siblings could do, or if we had forbidden them to do anything that Charlie Ben could not do equally well, it would have been grossly unfair either way.

*

A fair society is one in which people don't put up phony barriers just to keep one particular group down.

But it's also one where people who have natural limitations don't try to drag down those who don't have those limitations.

And don't think for a minute that this is an essay against affirmative action for African-Americans. Quite the opposite -- considering that in American society, Blacks spent generations bowed down under the deliberate oppression of Jim Crow and the terrorism of "lynch law," simple decency required that besides stopping the oppression, we collectively offer a hand to help them recover from the damage so unfairly done to them.

It's good to be in a society that tries to raise the floor wherever we can. Handicapped parking places and ramps are a sign of public compassion. Welfare for children whose parents haven't been able to provide for them; grants and scholarships for bright, hardworking, but financially strapped students -- these things make sense.

The problem is when people think "fairness" means that society has to make up for every deficiency in their lives.

Worse yet are the people who, when it's impossible for society to give them the same benefits that others have, demand that those benefits should be taken away even from those who are in a position to make use of them.

Imagine how ridiculous it would be if blind people demanded that because we can't restore their sight, the rest of us should live our lives blindfolded. Fairness has to include a recognition of the differences between people.

It also has to be able to adapt to random chance. Not every inequality in life is somebody's fault. And even when some unfortunate inequality can be blamed on someone's action, there isn't necessarily any sensible remedy.

For some things, we just have to tough it out. Maybe even keep some griefs and frustrations private, put on a good face for the rest of the world, and be glad things aren't even worse than they are.

*

There are times when our government acts in ways that seem grossly unbalanced -- and yet these actions benefit everybody and should continue. Let me give you an obvious example: The mortgage interest tax deduction.

On the surface, this is about as unfair as a law can be. People who can afford to buy houses are subsidized by the government. Most of each monthly house payment consists of interest on the mortgage, so when the government allows interest to be deducted from taxable income, it can be a sizable discount.

Worse yet, it's completely regressive -- the more expensive your house, the larger your mortgage, the more you can deduct. And the higher your income and therefore the higher your tax rate, the higher the percentage of your house payment you end up deducting!

On top of that, these people are accruing equity in their homes -- enormous profits on which they don't have to pay taxes when they sell their homes, as long as they sink the money back into another house.

And there sit all those poor renters, getting no tax break, paying more than the actual cost of their housing (since the landlord gets his profit), and accruing no equity. When they move out of one rental property, chances are they'll forfeit some part of their deposit -- they lose out in every way.

Why in the world do Americans, who are almost obsessive about being "fair" these days, allow such an unfair system to continue? Why aren't renters rioting in the streets, or at the very least picketing Congress?

Here's why: Most renters fully expect that someday they will buy a house. And they know that without being able to count on that huge tax break on mortgage interest payments, it would be far harder to afford to make the transition to home ownership.

And it's more than the selfishness of those who hope to take advantage of an unfair system. Society as a whole benefits from ever-higher proportions of home ownership. Home owners tend to be more stable, to move less. They pay property taxes. They keep up their yards. They're more likely to pay their bills; and if they run into hard times, their home equity usually allows them to borrow the money to tide them over till the emergency passes -- without going on welfare.

America is a better society precisely because we bend over backward to make it possible for people to make the transition from renting to owning.

Now, not all home owners live up to these ideals. Some of them don't pay their bills; some of them can't handle their financial emergencies; some of them don't keep up their property and let them become eyesores or even hazards to their neighbors.

But the deficiencies of some home owners don't cause anyone to seriously propose that all home ownership should be abolished, or that the tax break for mortgage interest should be eliminated because some people are not living up to expectations.

So, in the long run, is the special tax break for mortgage-paying homeowners really unfair at all? Or is it, in fact, a way of being as fair as we possibly can -- to open the door to home ownership to as many people as possible?

(Now, personally, I think that there could be a reasonable ceiling on the deduction without losing a bit of the public benefit -- let's say that you could only deduct your mortgage interest until it equals some percentage of the amount of the national median income. I can't see that we get any benefit at all from subsidizing the huge mortgages on ten-million-dollar mansions.

(But that's a matter of tweaking the law -- the fundamental principle is, in fact, fair, even though it seems grossly unfair upon first examination.)

*

So now let's compare this to marriage. Historically, governments and churches came late to the game -- marriages between men and women were going on long before they were coopted by public laws or religious rites.

In effect, though, governments and churches gave their sanction to marriages in order to encourage people to live up to the obligations and expectations of marriage.

That's because nobody thought of marriage as a "right." It was a responsibility, one which some people took far too lightly. Governments and churches intervened to encourage people to take them seriously and help them to thrive.

If a woman and man promise to remove themselves from the marriage pool, take care of each other regardless of circumstance, provide for their children, and bring them up to be responsible members of the society, then they should get special benefits.

Churches provided the benefit of public ceremony, the promise of divine sanction for the sacred family, and such support for child-rearing as the moral teaching, charity, and neighborliness of the congregation offered.

Governments, in their turn, provided a much simpler ceremony, but could offer legal protection for the family from outside harassment, as well as additional financial and social support for families.

In addition, both power centers -- the church and the state -- promised not to meddle in or weaken the family unit, and to provide various penalties, social or legal, for those failed to live up to their marriage promises.

*

This system is obviously unfair to many people, not to homosexuals in particular.

It's unfair to people who, because of their looks or social skills or lack of money or prospects are unable to find someone willing to marry them. It's unfair to people who get bored or frustrated with their marriage or who, for various reasons, can't take advantage of the full range of benefits.

And, yes, it's unfair to those whose sexual predilections make marriage unattractive to them. Just because a person has a reproductive dysfunction shouldn't bar him or her from the full benefits of this widespread practice of marriage, should it? How unfair!

And so it seems -- especially to those who haven't given it any thought beyond sloganeering.

In fact, however, just as that unfair mortgage interest tax deduction benefits everybody, so does the special protection for marriage between a man and a woman.

Unfortunately, many of those benefits are hard to demonstrate right now because we have spent the past fifty years wiping out most of the things that once made marriage so valuable to civilization.

No longer does society discourage people from breaking their marriage vows, whether through adultery, abandonment, or divorce. Going after "deadbeat dads" is merely a clumsy, ineffective substitute that deals only with finances, and not with any of the other devastating effects of broken promises.

No longer are those who bear children out of wedlock socially stigmatized.

No longer are children protected during their vulnerable adolescent years from the possibility of entering into nonce relationships that lead to babies being born without responsible parents.

But the fact that our society has made some gross mistakes that cripple marriages and families doesn't mean that we will get any benefit from abolishing marriage altogether, replacing it with laws that allow any relationship to be called "marriage," thereby removing from real marriages the last shred of societal protection.

*

In the name of "fairness," what we are poised to do now is make it impossible to give any legal or social advantage to those who are actually engaged in bearing and raising children in households where a father and a mother provide the essential gender role models that will give their children the best chance of entering society as adults who are ready to take on child-bearing and child-rearing themselves.

We have vast scientific and statistical evidence already that children thrive best in families that have one father and one mother, who pool their financial resources, are sexually faithful to each other, and remain married to each other until they are parted by death, and provide for their children to the best of their ability.

In all the criticism of "traditional values" and all the attacks on "dysfunctional families," it's good to remember that nobody has yet invented a better system.

And until we have a better system, it makes no sense at all to destroy the last vestige of the old system.

So when you hear someone talk about how "extending marriage to gay people" is "simple fairness," think again. Is it fair to the children who will grow up in a society that insists on magnifying any trace of reproductive dysfunction? Is it fair for all of us to be forced to raise our children without public encouragement for reproductive normality and monogamous, heterosexual, lifetime marriages?

Just as there are people who for reasons of their own will always be renters, who never get to benefit from that tax deduction for home buyers, so there will always be people excluded from the joys and responsibilities of marriage and child-rearing.

But it should provoke, not sympathy, but scorn when some of those unfortunate people demand that special protection for marriage be abolished solely because they have no personal desire to participate in it.

Instead they demand that their non-marriage relationships be called marriage, and that public schools from now on should teach all of our children that those reproductively dysfunctional relationships should be held up as equally valid models for our children to aspire to.

Not only that, but even before any vote is taken, even before the courts have decided to dictate this course of action, they demand that their opponents be silenced because any opposition is "hate speech."

It should be obvious that we're no longer talking about fairness. Because once we allow one side in an argument to demand that their opponents be silenced, we have already decided that fairness no longer plays a role in our society.

It is pitiable, even tragic, when, for various reasons, anyone is involuntarily cut off from the reproductive cycle of life.

But it is grossly unfair to demand, in the name of "fairness," that the normal pattern of marriage and family be deprived of its privileged position in our society, just so a few people can feel better about dysfunctions that even they insist are nobody's fault.

Copyright © 2004 by Orson Scott Card.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: gaymarriage; homosexualagenda; marriage; orsonscottcard; prisoners
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1 posted on 04/06/2004 11:31:53 AM PDT by Tolik
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To: Lando Lincoln; danneskjold; .cnI redruM; Aggie Mama; Alamo-Girl; Andyman; Bigg Red; Billthedrill; ..

We have vast scientific and statistical evidence already that children thrive best in families that have one father and one mother, who pool their financial resources, are sexually faithful to each other, and remain married to each other until they are parted by death, and provide for their children to the best of their ability.

In all the criticism of "traditional values" and all the attacks on "dysfunctional families," it's good to remember that nobody has yet invented a better system.

And until we have a better system, it makes no sense at all to destroy the last vestige of the old system.

So when you hear someone talk about how "extending marriage to gay people" is "simple fairness," think again. Is it fair to the children who will grow up in a society that insists on magnifying any trace of reproductive dysfunction? Is it fair for all of us to be forced to raise our children without public encouragement for reproductive normality and monogamous, heterosexual, lifetime marriages?

Orson Scott CardOrson Scott Card - moral clarity -  BUMP  [please freepmail me if you want or don't want to be pinged to Orson Scott Card political articles]

If you want to bookmark his articles discussed at FR: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/k-orsonscottcard/browse

His own political website: http://www.ornery.org/index.html  is heavily populated by American- and other Leftists who are delightfully annoyed by Mr. Card's conservatism. He does not post on that site and its moderated by somebody else. He is a registered Democrat upset with hijacking of his party by the Left.

His literary, non-political website: http://www.hatrack.com

His fresh articles appear in the Rhinoceros Times, Greensboro, NC: http://www.rhinotimes.com/greensboro/  (before being posted permanently on his ornery website). He has 2 columns in the RhinoTimes: one on political/international events, and the second one: reviews on movies, books, and anything he wants (!). I check his and  Michael Medved's  reviews and found myself reliably relying on them.

2 posted on 04/06/2004 11:34:41 AM PDT by Tolik
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To: Tolik
"Suppose we buy a dress for your sister," I said to my son. "Would you want us to get a dress for you too?"

Today's parents would cringe at the thought of asking that question.

3 posted on 04/06/2004 11:35:11 AM PDT by Paul Atreides
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To: All
Rank Location Receipts Donors/Avg Freepers/Avg Monthlies
50 Panama 25.00
1
25.00




Thanks for donating to Free Republic!

Move your locale up the leaderboard!

4 posted on 04/06/2004 11:39:02 AM PDT by Support Free Republic (Don't be a nuancy boy)
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To: Tolik
Bump and thanks!

Lando

5 posted on 04/06/2004 11:39:37 AM PDT by Lando Lincoln (GWB in 2004)
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To: Tolik
Like it or not, every homosexual is the product of heterosexuality. Protecting heterosexual unions and marriages protects every born child, regardless of their future lifestyle choices.
6 posted on 04/06/2004 11:40:09 AM PDT by King Black Robe
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To: Tolik
Thanks for the ping!
7 posted on 04/06/2004 11:50:59 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl (Glad to be a monthly contributor to Free Republic!)
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To: Tolik
A very interesting essay by OSC. In it, you can clearly see he Democrat tendencies (he is a registered Democrat after all). He makes a good point about fairness and all, although I don't think it is one of his stronger essays.
8 posted on 04/06/2004 11:54:14 AM PDT by Paradox (Occam never met a Democrat.)
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To: Paul Atreides
"Suppose we buy a dress for your sister," I said to my son. "Would you want us to get a dress for you too?"

If being brought up in a dress was good enough for John Kerry, it's good enough for other boys.

9 posted on 04/06/2004 11:58:44 AM PDT by Sweet Land (http://www.savingangel.org)
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To: Tolik
>But it is grossly unfair to demand, in the name of "fairness," that the normal pattern of marriage and family be deprived of its privileged position in our society, just so a few people can feel better about dysfunctions that even they insist are nobody's fault.

I think gay people
regard themselves as "normal"
just different, and

I do not think they
call themselves dysfunctional.
Are there gay Freepers?

10 posted on 04/06/2004 11:59:50 AM PDT by theFIRMbss
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To: Tolik
Card's analogy fails because a tax deduction is not a granting of privilege (it is, rather, a reduction in the amount of infringement upon property rights). This confusion is similar to the leftist definition of government "budget cuts" (i.e. a smaller increase than anticipated).

The proper answer remains, as in so many cases, the separation of state and [whatever societal institution has gotten screwed up this time].

11 posted on 04/06/2004 12:05:06 PM PDT by steve-b
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To: Paradox
Yes, there are differences in our approach. But it is something for normal debate. As he himself pointed out a number of times, the debate/dialog deteriorated to name calling and hate mostly because of the left hijacking the DP. He, like Zell Miller and other conservative democrats are people without a party. The DP is too left for them, and there are things that are not suiting them in the RP (which is OK, we don't want everyone think the same :)).
12 posted on 04/06/2004 12:06:20 PM PDT by Tolik
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To: Paul Atreides
However, the homosexual community would think it's swell.--bad analogy.
13 posted on 04/06/2004 12:09:47 PM PDT by freeangel (freeangel)
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To: theFIRMbss
Biologically, the purpose of human sexuality is the reproduction of the human species. Therefore, by definition, homosexuality is dysfunctional. What homosexuals themselves choose to call it is irrelevant.
14 posted on 04/06/2004 12:29:33 PM PDT by frgoff
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To: Sweet Land
I hear that Kerry can do a mean Can-Can.
15 posted on 04/06/2004 12:57:35 PM PDT by Paul Atreides
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To: Tolik
Only slightly off-topic:

Ender's Game...The Movie.

16 posted on 04/06/2004 1:03:00 PM PDT by Bloody Sam Roberts (Politics, the second oldest profession, bears a very close resemblance to the first.)
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To: Tolik
bump for later.
17 posted on 04/06/2004 2:42:49 PM PDT by Oberon (What does it take to make government shrink?)
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To: frgoff
>Biologically, the purpose of human sexuality is the reproduction of the human species. Therefore, by definition, homosexuality is dysfunctional. What homosexuals themselves choose to call it is irrelevant.

So we presume. But
evolutionists would say
homosexuals

have been around for
hundreds of generations,
they fill some purpose.

And religious folk
might say sexuality
exists to make kids,

yeah, but mainly as
a trial of our faith. My point
is only that sex

might not be as cut
and dried as your post puts it.
Or maybe it is.

18 posted on 04/06/2004 4:23:00 PM PDT by theFIRMbss
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To: theFIRMbss
Earlier on he refered to them as being reproductivly dysfunctional, gays may not like the wording of that, but they can't dispute the fact that homosexual relationships don't create kids.
19 posted on 04/06/2004 4:45:58 PM PDT by Grig
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To: Paul Atreides
Phooey. I'm a parent today and I had my 10-year-old daughter read this article and we talked about it.

You mean LIBERAL parents....
20 posted on 04/06/2004 5:24:15 PM PDT by Triple Word Score (Meretriciousness Everywhere.)
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To: *Homosexual Agenda; EdReform; scripter; GrandMoM; backhoe; Yehuda; Clint N. Suhks; saradippity; ...
Homosexual Agenda Ping + Thought Provoking Thoughts From Orson Scott Card.

I don't agree with everything he says (especially affirmative action) but he provides some very sensible and rational reasons why "gay" marriage is NOT good for this country.

Let me know if anyone wants on/off this pinglist.
21 posted on 04/06/2004 5:38:33 PM PDT by little jeremiah (...men of intemperate minds can not be free. Their passions forge their fetters.)
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To: theFIRMbss
Your arguments are irrational.

Murderers have been around since the beginning of time. Rapists have been around since the beginning of time. Child molesters and pedophiles have been around since the beginning of time. Liars have .... etc.

Just because some (very small) percentage of humans have been tempted at one time or another in their lives to practice same sex sodomy (now fashionably called being "gay" or homosexual) is no reason to label it normal or natural. Or benign or harmless, either, when all research proves the contrary.
22 posted on 04/06/2004 5:42:32 PM PDT by little jeremiah (...men of intemperate minds can not be free. Their passions forge their fetters.)
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To: little jeremiah
>... Rapists have been around since the beginning of time. ... Just because some ... percentage of humans have been tempted ... to practice same sex ... is no reason to label it normal or natural

> Not for you or me.
But it is reason enough
for many people.

23 posted on 04/06/2004 5:50:49 PM PDT by theFIRMbss
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To: Bloody Sam Roberts
Not sure I want a movie based on Ender's Game. Some books are so good that they can't be translated into the visual medium.

24 posted on 04/06/2004 6:52:43 PM PDT by patriciaruth
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To: theFIRMbss
Many people are irrational, unreasonable, and see through the lens of what they desire. IOW, some people want to know what is true - objective reality. Other people want to "know" only that which agrees with what they like or want. Often such people are moral relativists. One problem with moral relativism is that its very foundation is contradictory. Moral relativists, although in theory could accept moral absolutes as part of the spectrum of ideas [and indeed, in order to be internally consistent, would have to], never do. They are right, and those who accept that there are moral absolutes and objective (transcendent) truth are wrong. So they are absolutists after all.

Some people consider the mind of God as absolute, and some people consider the mind of man absolute. Subjectively speaking, of course.

Like those people who think that everyone is God. Only they're more "God" than others.
25 posted on 04/06/2004 6:53:00 PM PDT by little jeremiah (...men of intemperate minds can not be free. Their passions forge their fetters.)
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To: Bloody Sam Roberts
Have you or anyone read OSC's Women of Genesis series? I wonder if they are sterile due to his lack of real faith.

I liked his Pastwatch on Christopher Columbus, but the idea that people in the future create religious visions in the past is a dicey theory to base a book on.

If he is so concerned about keeping society stable by protecting marriage, then he should more seriously think about the role religion and faith plays in keeping societies stable.

By stable, I don't mean hidebound; but there are laws of physics that if you press the boundaries with too much force you will spin out of orbit.

26 posted on 04/06/2004 7:08:53 PM PDT by patriciaruth
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To: theFIRMbss
no.

an evolutionist would state that there are many forms of recurrent/persistent genetic and phenotypic aberrations, of which homosexuality is one, which are not lethal enough to the individual organisms so afflicted for it to be wiped out from the general population.

"Purpose" in biological terms means FUNCTION. The function of sexual intercourse is to pair up zygotes - and in our species that only works ("fulfills the function") when it is man plus woman.
27 posted on 04/06/2004 7:17:20 PM PDT by King Prout (You may disagree with what I have to say... but I will defend to YOUR death MY right to say it.)
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To: theFIRMbss
excuse me... that should read "...to pair up GAMETES TO FORM zygotes"

my bad - very tired.
28 posted on 04/06/2004 7:20:28 PM PDT by King Prout (You may disagree with what I have to say... but I will defend to YOUR death MY right to say it.)
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To: little jeremiah
I don't agree with everything he says (especially affirmative action) but he provides some very sensible and rational reasons why "gay" marriage is NOT good for this country.

But the way he discusses it is logical, calm and reasoned. People talk alot about how there is no debate today, merely shrill extremes with no listening. Card's article and some of the more "liberal" causes he endorses are done in such a way that at least there is apparently room for discussion.

I don't agree with all he says either, but I get the feeling I could have a healthy open-minded debate with him and even if I didn't convince him I would come away with respect for his thinking.

A rarity since most left-leaners are represented for what passes as "discourse" by such luminaries as Robert Scheer or the talents at DU.

29 posted on 04/06/2004 7:24:12 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (If your cat has babies in the oven you don't call them biscuits!)
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To: freedumb2003
I agree. Most liberals that I have ever tried to discourse with are actually psychotic and cannot rationally debate anything. As Michael Savage says, liberalism is a mental illness, and I concur.

Or one might call it a serious character flaw.
30 posted on 04/06/2004 7:30:45 PM PDT by little jeremiah (...men of intemperate minds can not be free. Their passions forge their fetters.)
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To: little jeremiah
Or one might call it a serious character flaw.

LOL!

31 posted on 04/06/2004 7:32:17 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (If your cat has babies in the oven you don't call them biscuits!)
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To: Tolik
No time or energy for comments. Just bump. And right on.
32 posted on 04/06/2004 7:48:37 PM PDT by Snuffington
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To: patriciaruth
Some books are so good that they can't be translated into the visual medium.

On the other hand, the Rings and Harry Potter movies do bring the books to life.

33 posted on 04/06/2004 8:00:13 PM PDT by KC_for_Freedom (Sailing the highways of America, and loving it.)
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To: theFIRMbss
Are there gay Freepers?

Yep. There are ex-homosexual freepers as well.

34 posted on 04/06/2004 9:39:51 PM PDT by scripter (Thousands have left the homosexual lifestyle)
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To: Angelus Errare
Orson Scott Card has either A) Been writing a lot of articles, lately, or B) He's been writing a lot for years and I only noticed just now. Either way, the man was awesome. I've got half a mind to go out and buy half a dozen of his books. :)
35 posted on 04/06/2004 9:43:36 PM PDT by Green Knight (Looking forward to seeing Jeb stepping over Hillary's rotting political corpse in 2008.)
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To: Green Knight
The books are quite good as well ;)
36 posted on 04/06/2004 10:14:08 PM PDT by Angelus Errare
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To: Tolik
Homosexual weddings are an important item on the Homosexual Agenda For America. The anticipated result is total degradation of God's institution of marriage.

In other words, the perverts wish to make heterosexual marriage a joke, a laughing stock, if you will!

Along the way to the courthouse the aspiring bride and groom thingy are looking for children to adopt as the homosexual intelligencia haven't devised a way to incubate a fetus in an anus.

37 posted on 04/07/2004 4:49:03 AM PDT by JesseHousman (Execute Mumia Abu-Jamal)
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To: Tolik
If only all Democrats had the intelligence of this one
38 posted on 04/07/2004 5:08:09 AM PDT by Teacher317
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To: patriciaruth
It would be easier to imagine an animation movie. OSC of course admits the challenge of finding the actors, as small and as bright as the heroes of the book.
39 posted on 04/07/2004 5:32:31 AM PDT by Tolik
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To: Green Knight
He started regular essay writing after 9/11 (like many other popular here authors, like Hanson, for example).

OSC archive is here: http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/index.html

He used to call it war watch, now world watch, or civilization watch. You will find, I am sure, many of them being very engaging.
40 posted on 04/07/2004 5:42:38 AM PDT by Tolik
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To: freedumb2003; little jeremiah

I don't agree with everything he says (especially affirmative action) but he provides some very sensible and rational reasons why "gay" marriage is NOT good for this country.

But the way he discusses it is logical, calm and reasoned. People talk alot about how there is no debate today, merely shrill extremes with no listening. Card's article and some of the more "liberal" causes he endorses are done in such a way that at least there is apparently room for discussion.

I don't agree with all he says either, but I get the feeling I could have a healthy open-minded debate with him and even if I didn't convince him I would come away with respect for his thinking.

Very well said! Thank you. Our political system benefits from positive and negative feedback. "Shrill extremes" are not a feedback, but noise, sometimes very loud noise that drowns some bits of thoughtful criticism. It is bad for our political health.

41 posted on 04/07/2004 5:55:47 AM PDT by Tolik
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To: King Prout
>"Purpose" in biological terms means FUNCTION. The function of sexual intercourse is to pair up zygotes ...

The only way we
can determine function is
by observation.

Yes, intercourse does
function to pair up zygotes.
But observation

also shows many
additional functions of
intercourse. Hormones

are regulated
by it. (Through them, our thinking.)
Social bonds get formed

(and broken) by it.
And, in fact, only some times
do zygotes pair up.

But all times we see
these other things occurring.
We cannot dismiss

these other functions
and say just reproduction
is the "purpose" here.

(Complicated things
often play multiple roles --
Language is a tool

for thinking, AND it
works for communication.
Sex is not simple.)

42 posted on 04/07/2004 7:19:59 AM PDT by theFIRMbss
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To: Bloody Sam Roberts
Great book, I hope they do a good job.
43 posted on 04/07/2004 7:41:13 AM PDT by Jonx6
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To: Jonx6
I hope they do a good job.

It should be good. Card wrote the first draft of the screenplay. They're writing the second draft now. Hopefully too much won't get changed.

44 posted on 04/07/2004 8:23:54 AM PDT by Bloody Sam Roberts (`,,`,,Election '04...It's going to be a bumpy ride,,`,,`)
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To: theFIRMbss
BIOLOGICAL FUNCTION limits the discussion.

mixing apples and oranges only leads to confusion over bullpuckey. please do not do it.
45 posted on 04/07/2004 8:28:40 AM PDT by King Prout (You may disagree with what I have to say... but I will defend to YOUR death MY right to say it.)
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To: King Prout
>mixing apples and oranges only leads to confusion over bullpuckey. please do not do it

Function is function.
The rest is ass-umption. Life
won't be simple just

because people wish
it were, or are willing to
pretend that it is.

Talk to someone else
if you're just looking to stroke
your preconceptions.

46 posted on 04/07/2004 9:44:16 AM PDT by theFIRMbss
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Comment #47 Removed by Moderator

To: King Prout
> Yes, intercourse does/function to pair up zygotes./But observation/also shows many/additional functions of/intercourse. Hormones/are regulated/by it.

>>BIOLOGICAL FUNCTION limits the discussion. ...

Hormonal cascades
from sex and orgasm are
pure biology.

They affect all cells,
every time someone's aroused.
Fertilization

just happens some times.
If we're gonna assume things,
we should assume that

ancient proto-cells
evolved proto-intercourse
as a method to

regulate hormones.
And when this biology
became commonplace --

proto-intercourse
as a hormonal control --
cell matter exchange

piggy-backed onto
intercourse. And that linked sex
with reproduction.

48 posted on 04/07/2004 12:34:21 PM PDT by theFIRMbss
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To: Tolik
It would be easier to imagine an animation movie. OSC of course admits the challenge of finding the actors, as small and as bright as the heroes of the book.

After reading Ender's Game, I can see why. The protagonists are pretty young. Card said he'd probably have to bump the characters' ages up a bit from the book. Myself, I'm working on a story where 17 of the characters are between the ages of 10-13. I could give a casting director a real headache....heh heh.
49 posted on 04/07/2004 1:07:12 PM PDT by Galactic Overlord-In-Chief (What does it say on the bottom of Coke bottles at DU? It says "Open Other End.")
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To: theFIRMbss
those are derivative, supplemental, supportive EFFECTS of sex, not the FUNCTION of sex.

let's apply your "logic" to something else as equally obvious: you would say that because an eye which has a shard of glass driven into the cornea (ie: abuse or misuse) reports agony to the brain, sets off a cascade of hormones and neurotransmitters, affects demeanor and personality, and so forth and so on... that the biological function of an eye is not to focus light onto the retina, translate photon reception into chemical signals, and report this data to the occipital lobes.

*twirling finger at right temple at such "reasoning"*
50 posted on 04/07/2004 1:43:20 PM PDT by King Prout (You may disagree with what I have to say... but I will defend to YOUR death MY right to say it.)
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