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It's religion gone mad
Toronto Sun ^ | April 17, 2004 | Michael Coren

Posted on 04/17/2004 5:17:31 AM PDT by Clive

HOW DOES one discuss the state of the Islamic faith, the Middle East, terrorism and the world without upsetting people? Frankly, it's almost impossible.

I'm not talking here of a fear of abuse and attack or of being accused of political incorrectness. I couldn't give a fig about that. No, I mean the need to hold on to common courtesy and avoiding making generalizations that could hurt good people.

Here are some recent examples, in that I have so little room to discuss this issue in full.

We used to be told by pop stars and other philosophers that "the Russians love their children too." It was self-evident then that all people loved their young. Now I'm not so sure. Do the Palestinians, for example, love their children too?

I should think most of them do.

But I have to be candid: many of them don't. We can't just rely on tired old relativism when we look at all this. Nobody who loves his or her child will send that little being out as a suicide bomber. Nobody who loves their children will line them up in front of tanks.

The natural instinct of a loving parent is to hide the children. Armed struggle and resistance I can understand, even if I do not approve. This, though, is something different. I've seen it myself. Mothers screaming for their tiny offspring to come out of the house, stand in front of Israeli patrols and throw stones at soldiers.

I take here no position on the causes of Israelis or Palestinians, but I do on the moral substance of a parent who would send children to fight the battles of adults.

Do not, please, tell me they have no option. There are legions of young Palestinian men willing to kill Israelis. It's just that children can sometimes be undetected. And are easily convinced of the delights of paradise in the world to come when, I quote, "Zionist skulls, blood and limbs fly against the walls."

British Muslim fundamentalists planned terror attacks and arrests were made in Ilford, England, my hometown. Boring Ilford may be, but nobody is oppressed there! Muslims who grew up with British democracy, free British health care, free British education and British tolerance have no reason to kill anyone, let alone those who gave them such privilege.

Remember, these people came to Britain, as they did to Canada, the United States and the rest of the free, Christian-based world to escape Islamic states and their harshness.

It is the pluralistic openness and decency of Europe and North America that has allowed so many Muslim immigrants. How ironic that a minority of those people hate that very pluralism and decency and want to slaughter women and children in the name of their god and their cause.

I opposed the war in Iraq, but I cannot remain silent when people kill contract workers, then disembowel and hang them from wires in the street. While children dance.

And, no, these murderers are not refugees from pain but the favoured sons of Saddam. Their fight is to restore fascism, not liberate their nation. Even if it was, nothing justifies such sadism.

German bomber pilots, their planes shot down, would parachute into London after destroying entire towns and killing thousands of people. Almost without exception they were treated properly, as prisoners of war.

It's not about colonization, globalization, Zionism, American dominance or any other cliches. The Muslims themselves are colonizers, having pushed most Christians out of the Middle and near East, once the cradle of the Christian world.

The Ottoman Turks, Muslims all, colonized the region for centuries. Arabs colonized Persians, Assyrians, Kurds and others. The Saudis, sponsors of so much terror, are nobody's victims. They are wealthy beyond belief, and deprive women and minorities of most basic civil rights.

This is something deeper, darker, than an imagined fight against a foreign foe. There is a virus at work. For the sake of the good, law-abiding Muslims of the world -- the majority -- we cannot pretend any longer it's about anything other than what it is: a religion gone mad and gone bad.

Stop the lies, they only make it worse.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: islam; radicalislam
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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To: Steely Tom
Is it a coincidence that, in the wake of the collapse of the Soviet Union and, with it, the "bipolar" model of world political order, we now see the emergence of a new set of challenges based on even more obvious forms of self-hatred than was Communism? I am speaking here of islam, homosexuality, and militant environmentalism (ALF, Earth First, PETA).

Well, I believe there is a God, and that Satan is real. There is a cosmic struggle between good and evil--and earth is on the front lines. In the 1930's and 1940's, Satan used fascism to fuel his evil plans. In the 1950's, 60's, and 70's, communism did just as much damage. Now, Lucifer uses Islam, radical feminism, the homosexual agenda, and political correctness to spread wretched evil.

51 posted on 04/17/2004 9:13:30 AM PDT by SkyPilot
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To: SkyPilot
Actually, now that I am fully awake and had my coffee, I realize that the headline of this article is itself delusional and misleading.

Islam was born mad and hasn't changed one iota in almost 1500 years.
So I repeat, what's there to talk about?

52 posted on 04/17/2004 9:23:54 AM PDT by Publius6961 (.)
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To: SkyPilot

53 posted on 04/17/2004 9:24:14 AM PDT by beavus (People proclaim to believe most assuredly that which they understand the least.)
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To: beavus
Riiiiiiiiiight.

By that I'll assume the answer is "No, I'm not a Scientologist". Approaching from a different way, if you could elaborate on your statement: "_Stranger in a Srange Land_ gives an interesting spin on this idea." it would be appreciated. Thanks.

54 posted on 04/17/2004 9:49:37 AM PDT by searchandrecovery (Ward Cleaver - "A thing is either right or it's wrong".)
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To: Tennessee_Bob
Stranger ... is a Heinlein novel - not Hubbard.

Yep, and a really good one, too. The only reason I bring it up is that it seemed to be a big fave among the scn folks I knew years ago - kind of like a gateway drug. A big red flag (to me) when mentioned in the context of scn. I could be wrong, but I thought it was worth exploring.

55 posted on 04/17/2004 9:55:08 AM PDT by searchandrecovery (Ward Cleaver - "A thing is either right or it's wrong".)
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To: MEG33
bttt
56 posted on 04/17/2004 9:58:08 AM PDT by MEG33 (John Kerry's been AWOL for two decades on issues of National Security!)
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To: Publius6961
"Countries" are but a convenient fiction with which to fight the infidels on their own terms.

Nicely stated. Thanks for clearing that up.

57 posted on 04/17/2004 9:59:58 AM PDT by searchandrecovery (Ward Cleaver - "A thing is either right or it's wrong".)
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To: kaylar
oldie....

Q: Why aren't there any Muslims on Star Trek?
A: Because it takes place in the future!

58 posted on 04/17/2004 10:12:24 AM PDT by whd23
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To: searchandrecovery
The Stranger in all his genius finally discovers a way of finding acceptance among earth-born humans. He frames his mysterious (but not mystical) alien ways in the form of a religious cult, to which people then rally. Being a good-natured fella, he ensures his cult is benign, but gives people what they want in terms of the usual religious trappings of ceremony, mystery, and pat answers.

Instead of a genius raised on Mars, LRH was a psychopath. However, Scientologists, Moonies, Hare Krishnas, and any number of other cults, old and new, might be looked at as a blessing. Those who rally to them are of the mind to rally to something, and I would prefer it is something that doesn't tell them to kill me.

Better Moon than Manson. Better Joseph Smith than Jim Jones. And, as cold as it sounds, better Marshall Applewhite than Abdul Wahhab.

59 posted on 04/17/2004 10:13:53 AM PDT by beavus (People proclaim to believe most assuredly that which they understand the least.)
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To: txzman; Mind-numbed Robot; quidnunc
Another Canadian piece../surprise.
60 posted on 04/17/2004 10:14:43 AM PDT by MEG33 (John Kerry's been AWOL for two decades on issues of National Security!)
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To: whd23
...but a goodie.
61 posted on 04/17/2004 10:15:59 AM PDT by beavus (People proclaim to believe most assuredly that which they understand the least.)
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To: beavus
Those who rally to them are of the mind to rally to something, and I would prefer it is something that doesn't tell them to kill me. ...better Marshall Applewhite than Abdul Wahhab.

Ok, just checking. Truce. Sorry. Definately a big distinction between religions that advocate suicide vs. homicide.

62 posted on 04/17/2004 10:28:06 AM PDT by searchandrecovery (Ward Cleaver - "A thing is either right or it's wrong".)
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To: WayneM
Actually, as a Christian I find it offensive for people to say that Islam is related to Christianity.
Islam is in no way related to any other religion. This is a myth put forward by apologists for Islam.

Islam is paganistic idol worship. Their "Allah" was one of many gods, one of three moon gods, in the pre-Islamic pantheon of the Arabs. Muhammad chose him and smashed all the others

63 posted on 04/17/2004 10:55:28 AM PDT by dennisw (GD is against Amalek for all generations)
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To: Clive
...For the sake of the good, law-abiding Muslims of the world -- the majority -- ...

Then they must step forward and fight the extremists themselves rather than cowering in a corner and letting others do it. If they are not going to fight they should at least cheer those who do. Instead they try to walk the tight-wire of non-alliance so they can embrace the winner when it is over. They don't deserve the gifts we are bestowing on them. Fortunately, it is all to our benefit in the end.

64 posted on 04/17/2004 11:08:19 AM PDT by Mind-numbed Robot (Not all things that need to be done need to be done by the government.)
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To: dennisw
Islam is paganistic idol worship. Their "Allah" was one of many gods, one of three moon gods, in the pre-Islamic pantheon of the Arabs. Muhammad chose him and smashed all the others

...thereby making Islam a monotheistic religion.

Unless you define "pagan" as non-Christian, or non-Christian non-Jewish, then Islam is not paganistic. The convention of dictionaries appears to be to define "pagan" as not Christian, Jewish, or Muslim.

As a side note, it is interesting that Christianity has had its brush with polytheism. Arius considered the notion of an eternal Christ as polytheistic and thus blasphemous. He insisted that one god created everything including the Christ. The notion of polytheism wasn't acceptable to any major Christian sect, but the solution the trinitarians were to dictate was to accept the paradox that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost were the same despite the fact that they have different names and behave as though they are different in scripture.

With that logic, a pagan could issue a proclaimation that all the gods are really of the same substance, and in one fell swoop launch a monotheistic religion, without "killing off" any gods. The question is, could you still call him a pagan?

65 posted on 04/17/2004 11:41:57 AM PDT by beavus (People proclaim to believe most assuredly that which they understand the least.)
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To: Clive
So strue... Mohammedans are the real opressors. It is amazing how they managed to get rid of Christians and Jews in the Middle East. I have absolutely no sympathy whatsoever for these Mohammedan wackos.
66 posted on 04/17/2004 11:51:26 AM PDT by Bismarck
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To: cripplecreek
Islam is not a religion. It is a death cult.

Mohamed was at best a schizophrenic ( if you are a secularist), at worst he was seduced by Satan.

Islam is crafted from the twisting of Judaism, Christianity and tribalism. Just about every Mosque is built on the holy site of another's religion. The Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem is built on the site of Solomon's Temple. Mohammed never visited. He had a dream about the place and it was enough for the Moslems to claim it.

The place where the Holy of Holy's sat in the temple is denied to Jews and Christians.

The Christian church of Saint Sophia in Istanbul is now a Mosque.

By their fruits you will know them. Moslems claim they have the closest relationship with God but:

1) It is the only modern social structure that still embraces slavery.
2) It uplifts no one, It does not contribute to a peaceful society in any locality or in the world at large.
3) Females and children are treated as no more than chattel
4) Practices human sacrifice in detonating children.
5) Most religions have as a central tennant the equality of all mankind , and that humanity can be bettered by the work of good men. Islam recognized no equality, It seeks not to better but to shakle everyone. There is no freedom of thought, no freedom of expression.

It is an adherence to a set of memorized rituals controling daily life. You have the prayer for crossing the bathroom threshold, what hand you can wipe with, the sequence and order that the body has to be washed in, the animals that are acceptable sexual partners. There is no individual responsibility for actions in the Moslem world because there are no real decisions anyone is allowed to make for themselves.

6) The fruits of islam are Homocide bombings, Honor killings, rape of non participants for civil offences, mutilations of females and children, slavery, poverty, bestiality and feudalism.

It is the product of a peurile psychotic mind and it produces psychotic peurile behavior.
67 posted on 04/17/2004 11:59:17 AM PDT by TASMANIANRED
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To: Clive
Remember, these people came to Britain, as they did to Canada, the United States and the rest of the free, Christian-based world to escape Islamic states and their harshness.

I don't believe that for a minute. I think there is an agenda based on hundreds of years of recorded muslim experiences in other countries, and is going on to this day? What could it be? - Tom


68 posted on 04/17/2004 12:09:58 PM PDT by Capt. Tom (Don't confuse the Bushies with the dumb republicans. - Capt. Tom)
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To: dennisw
Islam is indeed of pagan origin. The etymology of "Allah," has been traced to the Caananite "Baal." The Arabian "Allah," transliterated, is equivalent to the Caananite "Baal." For you that know your bibles, this is significant.

And so many think the bible irrelevent. The Old Testament struggle between the people of the only true God and their persecuters, the worshippers of Baal, is brought right up to date with the struggle between these modern Baal worshippers vs Christians and Jews.

Baal was the god of violence, war, and terror. This same spirit has imbued his modern day followers.
69 posted on 04/17/2004 12:33:35 PM PDT by sasportas
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To: TASMANIANRED
Islam is not a religion. It is a death cult.

A death cult cannot be a religion?

70 posted on 04/17/2004 1:03:09 PM PDT by beavus (People proclaim to believe most assuredly that which they understand the least.)
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To: Bismarck
It is amazing how they managed to get rid of Christians and Jews in the Middle East. I have absolutely no sympathy whatsoever for these Mohammedan wackos.

Not amazing really. Taxes are a powerful social tool.

71 posted on 04/17/2004 1:07:07 PM PDT by beavus (People proclaim to believe most assuredly that which they understand the least.)
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To: beavus
I call Mohammedans pagans because they are a death cult. They engage in child sacrifice. And they revel in blood. Their own words and actions demonstrate this..

They worship the Kabba stone which is an idol. Yeah, I know they'll have a ton of bogus reasons why Kabaa is not an idol.
72 posted on 04/17/2004 1:11:48 PM PDT by dennisw (GD is against Amalek for all generations)
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To: sasportas
Allah=Baal
Sounds about right to me.
73 posted on 04/17/2004 1:12:26 PM PDT by dennisw (GD is against Amalek for all generations)
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To: Mind-numbed Robot
Then they must step forward and fight the extremists themselves rather than cowering in a corner

Easy for you to say, cowboy. If you knew that your neighborhood, church, and maybe even your family was potentially infiltrated by clandestine murderous fanatics, would you really risk the life of you, your wife, and your children by standing out as a voice against these people? How many German folk do you think spoke out against Hitler in the 30's? How many Chicago folk publically criticized Capone in his hayday?

Bullying works.

74 posted on 04/17/2004 1:17:53 PM PDT by beavus (People proclaim to believe most assuredly that which they understand the least.)
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To: dennisw
I call Mohammedans pagans because they are a death cult.

That's the first time I've heard that definition of "pagan". Where did you get it?

75 posted on 04/17/2004 1:19:45 PM PDT by beavus (People proclaim to believe most assuredly that which they understand the least.)
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To: beavus
pagan

\Pa"gan\, a. [L. paganus of or pertaining to the country, pagan. See Pagan, n.] Of or pertaining to pagans; relating to the worship or the worshipers of false goods; heathen; idolatrous, as, pagan tribes or superstitions.

And all the rites of pagan honor paid. --Dryden.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

  _______________________

 

 

Most the time death cults are pagan death cults.

Allah is the false god of a pagan death cult.

76 posted on 04/17/2004 1:27:24 PM PDT by dennisw (GD is against Amalek for all generations)
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To: searchandrecovery
Interesting that one of the characters in Stranger in a Strange Land was a Muslim woman who was completely free to mix with infidels. Her job was to be a witness, I think, because of her native scepticism! I think she married a non-Muslim man later on (going back in memory 30-odd years here).
77 posted on 04/17/2004 1:27:40 PM PDT by TenthAmendmentChampion (Free! Read my inspirational historical romance novels: http://Writing.Com/authors/vdavisson)
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To: dennisw
Most the time death cults are pagan death cults.

Sure, but being a death cult, they are also bipeds. Why not use the word "bipeds" instead of "pagan"? They are often dark skinned. Why not use "dark skinned" instead of pagan? They are almost always devout. Why not use "devout" instead of pagan?

I think you are being a little hard on pagans. Some the finest human beings of ancient Rome and Greece were ostensibly pagan. People can believe a lot of skrewy things, so why pagans are selected out for your ire, I don't understand.

78 posted on 04/17/2004 1:40:06 PM PDT by beavus (People proclaim to believe most assuredly that which they understand the least.)
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To: beavus
Sticking a rock up your nose on a consistent basis can become a religion to an individual with obsessive compulsive disorder.

Religion is more than an organized system of beliefs. Islam is definitely that but it is more consistent with a cult behavior than with the wider definition of religion.

Religions developed as an intrinsic need in humans. It is born of the existential angst of existing as sentient creatures beings aware of their own mortality.

Historically religion helped individuals create order out of disorder by invoking the fates, the animus spirits or gods to bestow favors in terms of a human outcome. In early human history animal and human sacrifice and sex rituals were common.

Judiasm changed all this. With Judiasm an individual and a society was called to have a personal relationship with God.
Individuals were called to the relationship with God and to honor their obligations to others. Despite being a patriarchal society, Women and childrens status was elevated. Children were not something to be sacrificed to a tribal diety ( Molech). Fathers had obligations to wife and children.

With the codification of the 10 commandments certain behaviors were condemned in application to all peoples, not just the chosen people. Even in Judiasm which practiced a form of slavery required that they be released after 7 years of service. It was more a form of indentured service.

Even religions such as Confucianism, Budhism, Hinduism, Christianity there is the recognition that people own themselves. People have obligations not just to themselves, To God ,but to others as well. The Religions extort people to right behavior inside the group but outside the group as well. Societies advance when individuals advance.

All of these groups have had failings through the years but the central theme of the religion have always eventually corrected the excesses of society at large.

Islam as a religion is a throw back to pre Jewish paganism.
Islam is a cult where there are the religion police that ferret you out to beat you if you do not show up at the mosque at the right time. This is a cult brainwashing technique.

Islam is a cult where it is acceptable to inflict punishment on an innocent rather than the committer of an offence. There are a multitude of examples of gang rape of a sister for the offences of the brother. This is a cult brainwashing technique.

Islam is obcessed with the minutae of daily life. Bathroom behavior, food behavior,and sexual behavior .
The precepts of Islam that regard right behavior only applies to other Muslims, but it is totally acceptable to defraud, rape, murder, decieve anyone perceived as the other.

There is no universality in it, there is no absolute truth in it, there is no uplifting in it.

The goal of Islam is to hold everyone mired in a fixed position in society. There is no individual responsibility because there is no recognigition that the choices you make drive the outcome of your life. Islam allows no independent thought therefore there is never any renewal in the area. What is the last contribution to the world at large from the Islamic Middle east?

The only thing Islam contributes is new ways to be depraved, to kill mercilessly, to inflict as much harm as possible on innocents.

All the woes in the Islamic world are caused by an outside source. The poverty is a result of the Jews stealing Palestinian land, or the US sucking up all the oxygen. It is not the result of no private property, an educational system of madrassas that teach the Koran, hate and nothing else. A political system of corrupt sheiks and sand grubbing peasants. Hate , slander and blood libel are preached from the Mosques.

Islam exists to kill, subjugate, enslave, and pull the world back into a Feudal cesspool. All the world with the exception of Islam has regected the idea that you can own another human.

Islam has rejected the basic tennent of Western thought that all men are created equal. The very thought is an anethma and the thinker is worthy of murder.

The Religions of the world that believe in life after this physical life ends do not see it as a continuation of this life. You do not carry your physical body along.

The Islamists see heaven an a peurile view as a place of reckless hedonism where the pleasures of the flesh can be continued ad infinitum. The reward for slaughtering innocent Jews is 72 virgins. You cannot drink in this world but the next holds rivers of alcohol.


Cults indoctinate, cults punish for any deviation from the indoctrination. Cults severely restrict access to any information out of accepted doctrine. Cults excessively control the fundamentals of behavior.

Religions on the other hand require an expansion of the believer. You are human but you are also spiritual. You are connected and responsible to God, yourself and humanity.

My humble opinion.
79 posted on 04/17/2004 2:25:58 PM PDT by TASMANIANRED
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To: TASMANIANRED
A thoughtful response to be sure, but you seem to be trying to adopt words like "religion" and "cult" as your own, to be used as value statements regarding what you like or don't like. Islam may not be a good religion, but it meets all criteria (like faith and ardor) for a religion. It is recognized by Muslims and non-Muslims alike as a religion. Those restrictions you list in order for something to qualify for the label religion are new to me.

Likewise, cults are usually religions. Cults need not have all the negative characteristics you described. Any unorthodox religion or religious sect could appropriately be labelled a cult. They don't all whip their members into submission.

It just seems to be some folks are taking rather narrow and overly judgemental views of broad notions such as religion, paganism, and cult. The words describe plenty of folks over the centuries who didn't blow themselves up in crowded cafes.

80 posted on 04/17/2004 4:51:16 PM PDT by beavus (People proclaim to believe most assuredly that which they understand the least.)
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To: beavus
>>>issue a proclaimation that all the gods are really of the same substance, and in one fell swoop launch a monotheistic religion, without "killing off" any gods. The question is, could you still call him a

Pretty much describes huge swathes of IndoHindu societies in the Americas, Europe, Africa and India.

The Gods and Goddesses are not destroyed but enhanced, useful and appreciated for devotional rituals like singing and music, nominal or for festivals, without challenging either. Self styled but having built a following are Individuals who establish similar but slightly different congregations without challenging or denying the existing pantheon.

81 posted on 04/17/2004 5:41:19 PM PDT by swarthyguy
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To: swarthyguy
Many Hindus go further and believe all gods to be of the same substance--similar to the dominant Christian trinitarian approach. Some envision a hierarchy of deities, similar to the dominant form of Roman paganism, or the Catholic heresy Arianism.

However, back to the original subject, Islam does profess a single creator god and is therefore probably best considered monotheistic. It does admit angels and the devil, but like Catholicism, does not explicitly label them as "gods".

So, "pagan" really does not properly describe Islam any more than it does Roman Catholicism (unless, of course, one defines "pagan" as such a distinction, as some do).

82 posted on 04/17/2004 6:39:04 PM PDT by beavus (Terrorists: kill many and kill often. Being dead is the only thing to which they respond.)
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To: beavus
And thanks to Mohammed proclaiming himself the last prophet, there is no hope for major reform either.

Not only that but his book is alledged to be the actual Word of God dictated to Mad Mo by his angel. Not much room for interpretation or reformation there.....
83 posted on 04/17/2004 6:50:17 PM PDT by Kozak (Anti Shahada: " There is no God named Allah, and Muhammed is his False Prophet")
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To: sasportas
Islam is indeed of pagan origin.

For the same reasons you give, Judaism may have been inspired by pagan traditions, perhaps with the Caananite head god El being selected as sole god Yahweh. El had a character much like that of Yahweh described in the Old Testament.

The doctrine is that Yahweh made himself known to Abraham in a pagan world (even if tradition holds that Yahweh was worshipped since Adam). Mohammed's claims are similar, except that he claims decent not from paganism, but the monotheism of Abraham. At any rate, Mohammed defined a religion just as monotheistic as Judaism.

It is hard to distinguish Islam and Judaism on monotheistic/polytheistic grounds.

84 posted on 04/17/2004 7:36:07 PM PDT by beavus (Terrorists: kill many and kill often. Being dead is the only thing to which they respond.)
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To: beavus
To deal your argument will take us into revelation vs reason. Which will probably go nowhere.

I accept and believe that the bible is the true revelation from God. Obviously you don't. Our discussion will come down to faith. I believe the biblical revelation... you don't.

By "God" I mean the one who revealed himself to Adam, Noah, Abraham, and Moses... not to Mohammed. "Elohim" is not "Allah."

His "character," as you put it, is not fully revealed in the Old Testament, but in the incarnation. In Christ, we see Elohim's fully revealed character. As different from Islam's god as day is from night.

What are you anyway, a libertarian?
85 posted on 04/18/2004 12:36:50 AM PDT by sasportas
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To: dennisw; Cachelot; Yehuda; Nix 2; veronica; Catspaw; knighthawk; Alouette; Optimist; weikel; ...
If you'd like to be on or off this middle east/political ping list, please FR mail me.
86 posted on 04/18/2004 5:50:57 AM PDT by SJackson (America...thru dissent and protest lost the ability to mobilize a will to win, Col Bui Tin, PAVN)
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To: sasportas
Sure, one's faith can take him anywhere, but I don't see why that should blind you to an objective analysis of available historical evidence. Intelligent devout people are still capable of skeptical inquiry independent of their faith.

You were taking such an analytical approach toward Islam, apparently unconcerned with the fact that Muslims also interpret their religion by faith. And, their faith tells them that there is and has always been just one god, the god of Abraham.

El was the head Caananite deity, supposedly both compassionate and judgemental, analogous to the image of Yahweh and the angels in the Old Testament. Obviously the historical evidence for this interpretation is greatly lacking and probably always will be. However, our experience with people shows that folks tend to build from what they know, rather than create something totally alien to them whole cloth. So, this view should not conflict at all with your faith. Whatever vision Abraham had, it was within the context of the world he knew.

87 posted on 04/18/2004 6:18:34 AM PDT by beavus (Terrorists: kill many and kill often. Being dead is the only thing to which they respond.)
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To: SJackson
Bump for later
88 posted on 04/18/2004 8:39:29 AM PDT by Valin (Hating people is like burning down your house to kill a rat)
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To: All
An excellent article, and as someone else mentioned it gives me a bit of hope. We in the West are inundated with the ridicoulous PC propoganda that Islam is a 'religion of peace' when anyone with a basic knowledge of world history knows it is not now and never has been. Furthermore due to it's nature it never can be. What we have here is a rapidly spreading cancer that must be destroyed utterly. I have no idea how to go about that really, nor am I sure it can be done. It is nice to see from the article and the thread there are a few out there that 'get it'. I see this conflict as a continuation of the struggle between Islam and the Judeo/Christian world, and as another stated, a continuation of the basic conflict between good and evil. I'm afraid tho the mostly secularized West may not wake up to this in time.
We prattle on about the 'root causes' of terrorism like poverty etc. but refuse to acknowledge the obvious - evil exists. Evil slaughtered 100s of millions in wars and genocide last century and this new century is shaping up to be worse. Islamofascists WILL get ahold of WMDs - tommorrow or 10 years from now - it is inevitable since they exist and are desired. When that happens it will not be attacks resulting in 30 or 3000 deaths but in attacks that result in 30,000 or 300,000 deaths. The beginnings:

Foiled al-Qaida Attackers Caught Red-Handed With WMDs
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/4/17/112546.shtml

I am a Catholic but not a Bible thumper and certainly not a wild-eyed Revelations quoter but when I read about the world being forced to worship the beast in the Book of Revelations I do wonder...
If we don't face reality and deal with evil for what it is Islam will win.
89 posted on 04/18/2004 9:27:11 AM PDT by kjvail
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To: beavus
Easy for you to say, cowboy. If you knew that your neighborhood, church, and maybe even your family was potentially infiltrated by clandestine murderous fanatics, would you really risk the life of you, your wife, and your children by standing out as a voice against these people?

I suppose you are right. It is much easier to let someone else take the risk and someone else's family to suffer the losses. However, the least they could do is stop complaining about being misunderstood. They are not. They are sitting back, out of fear I grant you, and letting the fanatics run the show. The fanatics are in the minority, as bullies always are, so there is no justifiable reason, other than fear, for letting them run the show.

90 posted on 04/18/2004 9:40:18 AM PDT by Mind-numbed Robot (Not all things that need to be done need to be done by the government.)
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To: Mind-numbed Robot
They are sitting back, out of fear I grant you, and letting the fanatics run the show.

For a people who like to allude to Saladin, they do show a remarkable lack of courage. Doesn't appear to be a single Patrick Henry in the whole lot.

Actually, to be fair, some Kurds have been outspoken for a long time, but the press isn't very interested either in what they have to say or in their striking success in North Iraq. Also, Karzai and Musharraf probably are finding it hard to get life insurance these days.

91 posted on 04/18/2004 10:42:50 AM PDT by beavus (Terrorists: kill many and kill often. Being dead is the only thing to which they respond.)
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To: Clive
BTTT
92 posted on 04/18/2004 10:45:58 AM PDT by spodefly (Tagline privileges temporarily suspended.)
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To: kjvail
If we don't face reality and deal with evil for what it is Islam will win.

I don't think Islam has a formula for success in the modern world. They won't win (assuming you mean worldwide Islam), but their worst factions are likely to be blight on humanity for a long time to come.

93 posted on 04/18/2004 10:51:48 AM PDT by beavus (Terrorists: kill many and kill often. Being dead is the only thing to which they respond.)
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To: beavus
"I don't think Islam has a formula for success in the modern world."

No they don't, but they don't want a 'modern' world - they see it as anthema and corrupt.

"They won't win (assuming you mean worldwide Islam), but their worst factions are likely to be blight on humanity for a long time to come."


I don't share your optimism - if killing a mere 200 or so 3 days before an election in a major Western nation causes the government to make radical changes to policy what would the death of 20,000 do?
Set of a bomb loaded with Sarin gas in the NYC subway system at 8 am or so and you could have just that.
See the problem is the leaders of these totalitarian Islamic dictatorships have no one to answer to except "Allah" himself - our President does not enjoy that kind of freedom of action. He will be held accountable, rightly or wrongly for such an attack. We have already seen the left's penchant for asking 'What did we do to deserve this'.
94 posted on 04/18/2004 2:01:10 PM PDT by kjvail
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To: Clive
Clive, it's a religion from the Pit.

It's Satan's Handiwork.

It's Evil.

95 posted on 04/18/2004 4:39:23 PM PDT by happygrl (this war is for all the marbles...)
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To: SJackson
bump and thanks!
96 posted on 04/19/2004 1:45:18 AM PDT by lainde (Heads up...We're coming and we've got tongue blades!!)
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To: beavus; Shermy
Wahhabs consider Catholics polytheists.

Their mantra that we're all peoples of the book doesn't really apply to Catholics. More shaving from the perv wahhabs.

And my theory is the Kaaba is really a Shiva Lingam.

Should we enlight Beavus, Shermy, on the Saffron Plan to set the monotheists at each others throats.

Nah. It's going too well anyway.
97 posted on 04/19/2004 10:02:37 AM PDT by swarthyguy
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To: swarthyguy
"Should we enlight Beavus, Shermy, on the Saffron Plan to set the monotheists at each others throats."

Do you check out the religious threads? They are continually going at each other.

This thread is an interesting read. Let's pray the country wakes up; however, there are no signs of it. It seems many are much more concerned about what is of immediate benefit to their individual wants and American Idol, or other reality (anything but) shows.

98 posted on 04/19/2004 1:44:08 PM PDT by Countyline
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To: Countyline
Nah, theology gives me the giggles and the munchies.

I stick to the smoking threads for flamewars.
99 posted on 04/19/2004 1:47:17 PM PDT by swarthyguy
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To: Clive
Nazism - 50 million dead

Communism - 100 million dead

My prediction:

Islam - 250 million dead

100 posted on 04/19/2004 2:02:01 PM PDT by ZeitgeistSurfer
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