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Moderate Muslims March in Phoenix - and an anti-war demonstration breaks out
FrontPageMagazine ^ | 4/30/04 | Daniel Pipes

Posted on 04/30/2004 2:11:32 AM PDT by kattracks

When the American Islamic Forum for Democracy organized “A Rally against Terror” on April 25 in Phoenix, its head, an Arizona physician named Zuhdi Jasser, said his goal was to give Muslim moderates “an opportunity to speak out publicly.” And Jasser presented the rally as a robust response to the many criticisms that American Muslims had not produced a “groundswell of condemnation” against terrorism. In fact, he asserted,

The killing of innocent people out of revenge, out of hate or out of retribution is against the absolute laws of Islam. Suicide is against the absolute laws of Islam. People can justify their actions all day long, but we as Muslims are here to say clearly their actions are against everything we believe.

Jasser wrote an oped in the Arizona Republic where, as a Muslim, he took responsibility for the mistrust directed toward American Muslims, rather than merely blow this off as prejudice:

It is impossible as an American not to feel the growing palpable distrust toward the Muslim community. With attacks targeting innocent civilians across the globe, it has sadly at this time gone far beyond the initial prideful question of “Why are Muslims being singled out?” It is time now only to rally and provide an unmistakable resounding reply. 

With this in mind, he set out two goals for the rally:

We want to reassure the American public that the great majority of Muslims condemn the targeting of innocents by virtue of the tenets of our faith. We also want to give hope and inspiration to faithful Muslims all over the country that this type of rally is possible.

Jasser found support for his efforts as close as the Arizona Republic, which correctly judged this event to be “the nation’s first Muslim rally against terrorism,” and as far away as the country’s capital, where a Washington Times editorial ended with, “We salute Dr. Jasser, American patriot.”

The Muslim community of Phoenix is estimated at 50,000 persons; Jasser worked strenuously to reach out to the Valley Council of Imams, Valley mosques and major Valley Islamic organizations; and the Arizona Republic, the leading newspaper of Phoenix, gave the rally its full-fledged support. A head of steam behind him, Jasser optimistically predicted that 500 to 1,000 people would attend the event.

But then the event was held (an audio of the 50-minute long event can be heard online) and reality set in. Estimates vary. The Arizona Republic counted 250 in attendance, the police 400.  The number of Muslims, I heard, was between 30 and 100 persons. Most participants were not Muslim but (the Arizona Republic recounts) “people like Michael Fischer, 18, of Glendale, who wanted to denounce the stereotyping of Muslims; and Grace Clark of Apache Junction, who wanted to promote peace.” One correspondent of mine judged the event “a total disaster.”

But that is too severe. It was a humble beginning that can grow into something large and strong. Jasser points out to me that “The beginnings of every great movement in our great nation’s history of freedom began in a small way.” He notes also that American Muslims, being predominantly first-generation immigrants, are still getting grounded. With time, he expects, “the vast majority of American Muslims will listen to the message of our rally and find complete agreement with its statement of faith.”

Until then, however, there is the stark reality that very few Muslims did show up. And those who did held up “peace” and “anti-war” signs, not anti-terror or anti-Islamist signs. Two factors help explain this disappointing result.

First, the message of the event did not fit the thinking of most Muslims. Unfortunately, the mood in this community is a radical one, and not inclined to stand up and condemn terrorism.

Second, Zuhdi did not pander to the Islamist establishment – such as the Council on American-Islamic Relations – in planning the event. These extremists no doubt could have brought out a larger crowd – but to rail against Israel or U.S. policy.

The Phoenix rally points to the current reality of American Muslim opinion. This problem needs to be dealt with. If not, I can imagine the United States will hear the same overt calls for jihad and Islamic rule that Western Europe is now experiencing. 

Daniel Pipes (www.DanielPipes.org) is director of the Middle East Forum and author of Miniatures (Transaction Publishers).



TOPICS: Editorial; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: aifd; danielpipes; jasser; muslimamericans; pipes; zuhdi
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1 posted on 04/30/2004 2:11:32 AM PDT by kattracks
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To: kattracks
his goal was to give Muslim moderates “an opportunity to speak out publicly.”

What is a moderate Muslim? I did not think there were any.

2 posted on 04/30/2004 2:18:23 AM PDT by Mark17
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To: kattracks
At this time of the year it's too hot to stand around in Phoenix unless it involves baseball or a classic auto show.
3 posted on 04/30/2004 2:35:56 AM PDT by Sabatier
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To: kattracks
I too support Dr. Jasser as a Patriot, unfortunately Dr. Jasser is in the minority in the Islamic community.
4 posted on 04/30/2004 2:46:13 AM PDT by sgtbono2002 (I aint wrong, I aint sorry , and I am probably going to do it again.)
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To: Mark17
Surely you jest.
5 posted on 04/30/2004 2:46:48 AM PDT by ScarTissue
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To: kattracks
Pipes is a fraud - there is no such thing as a "moderate" Muslim. They all support the terrorists and they all suppoprt the extremism be preached and promoted by "rogue" Muslim clerics.

(Definition - A "rogue" Muslim cleric is any Muslim cleric with a congregation)
6 posted on 04/30/2004 2:51:52 AM PDT by DustyMoment (Repeal CFR NOW!!)
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To: sgtbono2002
Based on what evidence? Are you saying that most of the 7 million Muslims in the US are terrorists yet the administration has done nothing about it? Come on. That is ridiculous. If they were a threat, President Bush, a real patriot, would be the first to deal with it.

If you were president what would you do with Muslims? How would you sell that to the public? Do you think most Americans view 99.999% of Muslims as terrorists even though 99.999999999999999999% have not done a single thing to back terrorism?
7 posted on 04/30/2004 3:03:27 AM PDT by ScarTissue
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To: Mark17
A moderate muslim ? isn't that one that's run out of ammo ?
8 posted on 04/30/2004 3:08:32 AM PDT by Robert Warren Linville
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To: kattracks
I think that muslims in this country are less then dirt.
The vast majority fail to show contempt for the murderous palestinians, or the terribly harmful govts. of the mid east.
Abuse of citizens rights in arab countries and especially abuse of people of other faiths in these crapholes is evil.
As a failth the muslims here as well as elsewhere earned my contempt by not forcefully denouncing 9-11 attacks as well as the other attacks they have spawned over the years world wide.
9 posted on 04/30/2004 3:11:55 AM PDT by Joe Boucher (G.W. Bush in 2004)
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To: Joe Boucher
Still waiting for the strongest horse, perhaps?
10 posted on 04/30/2004 3:29:51 AM PDT by rusty millet
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To: Sabatier
At this time of the year it's too hot to stand around in Phoenix unless it involves baseball or a classic auto show.

Most Muslims come from countries where the weather is normally hot. They're accustomed to it.

11 posted on 04/30/2004 3:38:27 AM PDT by Siamese Princess
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To: Mark17
Re: What is a moderate Muslim?

The one who hasn't killed you yet.

12 posted on 04/30/2004 3:42:15 AM PDT by ChadGore (Vote Bush. He's Earned It.)
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To: ScarTissue; sgtbono2002; BOBWADE
I too support Dr. Jasser as a Patriot, unfortunately Dr. Jasser is in the minority in the Islamic community.

I understand exactly where you are coming from and am in complete agreement.

They all support the terrorists and they all suppoprt the extremism be preached and promoted by "rogue" Muslim clerics.

I think that is "painting with too broad a brush". Give Dr Jasser credit; don't go with just the negatives. Every trip starts with a small step.

13 posted on 04/30/2004 3:49:37 AM PDT by zip (Remember: DimocRat lies told often enough became truth to 42% of americans)
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To: kattracks
Instead of Madrassas, Muslim children should be brought up on the internet. Free access to a world of knowledge will change the next generation. IMHO the internet is part of the obvious fear Islam has of the West.
14 posted on 04/30/2004 3:50:04 AM PDT by tkathy (nihilism: absolute destructiveness toward the world at large and oneself)
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To: sgtbono2002
Dr. Jasser's view is a minority view in other segments of American society. Let's not damn his compatriots without remembering that many many American liberals share the view of the majority of muslims.

Tragic, isn't it?

15 posted on 04/30/2004 3:52:20 AM PDT by OldFriend (Always understand, even if you remain among the few)
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To: Mark17
What is a moderate Muslim? I did not think there were any.

A moderate Muslim is a Muslim willing to live their religion personally without signing on to the death cult that dominates it globally. AFAIK there are two moderate Muslims, the organizer of this rally, and I think there is another one somewhere in Topeka, Kansas.

16 posted on 04/30/2004 4:07:21 AM PDT by blanknoone (Vote GWB in 04 or your great grand daughter WILL wear a Burqa.)
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To: ScarTissue
I'll bet dollars to donuts that the vast majority of the 3,000 mosQues in the U.S. are nothing more than weapons storehouses waiting for the moment that the ten million plus U.S. moosLims decide to impose iSLAM law on the American populous. I expect that the not-so-distant future of the U.S. will include broad spread moosLim uprisings and car bombings, etc. to start the conversion from a free society we enjoy to iSLAMic law. Just because GW Bush doesn't do something doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, or need to be done. Remember, GW says that iSLAM is a religion of peace (or did he say "pieces?")
17 posted on 04/30/2004 4:12:54 AM PDT by Imagine
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To: OldFriend; All
Tragic, isn't it?

Very!

Just like the uproar over this recent Gallup poll that indicates a great deal of what I would can, honest displeasure with the occupation in Iraq.

I tried to put myself in their place and I found that my view, based on my own nationalistic tendencies would have been similar had I been asked that same question, phrased in the same way.

People here in this country and on this site as well as just not thinking.

The fact that Iraqi's resent the occupation, and are impatient to get control of their own lives and country is not at all unusual.

The fact that they are not jumping up and down with glee and have dissident voices intermixed with fear, loathing and confusion after decades of abuse and terror is not unusual.

What is unusual is that after 9/11, Americans are forgetting why we are pursuing the war on terror and why it is so important that we play this as an AWAY GAME as opposed to a HOMECOMMING!

If our economy crashes as a result of another of these terrorist attacks, it may never recover and the United States of America will be but a 200 year footnote in the history books.

How much is that protection worth? Can you put a number on it? Is 500 lives too much? a thousand? Ten Thousand!!!!!!(we lost over 50,000 in Vietnam)

The answer is that there is no limit to what we must do in order to protect our very existence and our place in history. There is no sacrifice that is too great in this situation, this is way more important and justifiable than Vietnam and the sooner people figure that out and learn to live with it, the better for all of us.

18 posted on 04/30/2004 4:25:29 AM PDT by Cold Heat (Politicians are interested in people. Not that this is always a virtue. Fleas are interested in dogs)
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To: Imagine
"I think that muslims in this country are less then dirt." Then you are a sick man. Do you realize that racist posts from here are circulated around the web and used to discredit conservatives? People like some of those in this thread are the reason why every minority in America votes Democratic. The RATS use racist extremists among us to scare minorities into voting for RATS. "The vast majority fail to show contempt for the murderous palestinians" That is simplistic. Do you know anything about the conflict? There are no good guys in that conflict. Supporting Israel is as bad as supporting the Palestinians. Remember, the Israelis are the ones stealing land, not the Palestinians. "or the terribly harmful govts. of the mid east." That doesn't make sense. They proved their contempt for those governments by leaving those countries. That is the ultimate rebuke of a country. Have you denounced those governments? Many of them are supported by America. Have you demonstrated "forcefully" your opposition to us giving $2 billion a year to Egypt for instance and allowing it to steal water from its neighbors? Only 1/6 of Muslims are Middle Eastern. If you don't know that, you shouldn't be commenting on them and should rely on knowledgeable people like those in the Bush administration. That is hypocrtical. You are pro-Israel and you are denouncing the abuse of minority rights. Most Israelis would abuse YOUR rights: "According to the Israel Radio poll, carried out by the Panorama opinion survey organization, most Israeli Jews support the proposed "Druckman Law", which would allow communities built on state land to pursue a "Jews-only" policy, barring Arabs and other non-Jews from living or buying property there." That includes YOU. http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=185730&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0 That talking point again. That is rubbish. They denounced the terrorist attacks more forcefully than anyone in history did when an attack was done in their name after 9/11. What did you do to denounce Eric Rudolph and the parade of people that have bombed abortion clinics and gay nightclubs in the name of Christianity? Let me guess: nothing, zilch, nada. "I'll bet dollars to donuts that the vast majority of the 3,000 mosQues in the U.S. are nothing more than weapons storehouses waiting for the moment that the ten million plus U.S. moosLims decide to impose iSLAM law on the American populous. I expect that the not-so-distant future of the U.S. will include broad spread moosLim uprisings and car bombings, etc. to start the conversion from a free society we enjoy to iSLAMic law." Evidence? That is fallcious. If Muslims are the threat you people claim there without a shred of evidenc, and he has done nothing about it then he is a traitor. Why are you people voting for him then? Are you Democrats here to paint conservatives as racists and attack Bush subtly? Islam is as peaceful as any other religion. Open up a history book. Count the number of wars each religion has started.
19 posted on 04/30/2004 4:26:00 AM PDT by ScarTissue
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To: ScarTissue
"I think that muslims in this country are less then dirt."

Then you are a sick man.

Do you realize that racist posts from here are circulated around the web and used to discredit conservatives? People like some of those in this thread are the reason why every minority in America votes Democratic. The RATS use racist extremists among us to scare minorities into voting for RATS.

"The vast majority fail to show contempt for the murderous palestinians"

That is simplistic. Do you know anything about the conflict? There are no good guys in that conflict. Supporting Israel is as bad as supporting the Palestinians. Remember, the Israelis are the ones stealing land, not the Palestinians.

"or the terribly harmful govts. of the mid east."

That doesn't make sense. They proved their contempt for those governments by leaving those countries. That is the ultimate rebuke of a country. Have you denounced those governments? Many of them are supported by America. Have you demonstrated "forcefully" your opposition to us giving $2 billion a year to Egypt for instance and allowing it to steal water from its neighbors?

Only 1/6 of Muslims are Middle Eastern. If you don't know that, you shouldn't be commenting on them and should rely on knowledgeable people like those in the Bush administration.

That is hypocrtical. You are pro-Israel and you are denouncing the abuse of minority rights. Most Israelis would abuse YOUR rights:

"According to the Israel Radio poll, carried out by the Panorama opinion survey organization, most Israeli Jews support the proposed "Druckman Law", which would allow communities built on state land to pursue a "Jews-only" policy, barring Arabs and other non-Jews from living or buying property there." That includes YOU. http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=185730&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0

They denounced the terrorist attacks more forcefully than anyone in history did when an attack was done in their name after 9/11. What did you do to denounce Eric Rudolph and the parade of people that have bombed abortion clinics and gay nightclubs in the name of Christianity? Let me guess: nothing, zilch, nada. "I'll bet dollars to donuts that the vast majority of the 3,000 mosQues in the U.S. are nothing more than weapons storehouses waiting for the moment that the ten million plus U.S. moosLims decide to impose iSLAM law on the American populous. I expect that the not-so-distant future of the U.S. will include broad spread moosLim uprisings and car bombings, etc. to start the conversion from a free society we enjoy to iSLAMic law." Evidence? That is fallcious. If Muslims are the threat you people claim there without a shred of evidenc, and he has done nothing about it then he is a traitor. Why are you people voting for him then? Are you Democrats here to paint conservatives as racists and attack Bush subtly? Islam is as peaceful as any other religion. Open up a history book. Count the number of wars each religion has started.

WHAT SOLUTION DO YOU PROPOSE? SHOULD THEY ALL BE PUT IN GAS CHAMBERS?
20 posted on 04/30/2004 4:34:44 AM PDT by ScarTissue
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To: zip; BOBWADE
ping
21 posted on 04/30/2004 4:50:01 AM PDT by Mrs Zip
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To: ScarTissue
Muslim isn't a race --- it's an ideology.
22 posted on 04/30/2004 4:54:22 AM PDT by FITZ
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To: Mark17
Notice the rally was held outdoors? Indoors there are no moderate moslems.
23 posted on 04/30/2004 4:57:19 AM PDT by vandykelastone (I'm so glad Goober Pyle is the Governor of New Mexico, aren't you?)
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To: ScarTissue
If Muslims are the threat you people claim there without a shred of evidenc,

Evidence? Look at what is going on in Indonesia, the Sudan, the Middle East, Spain, Nigeria, Pakistan. You can't say Islam has nothing to do with a lot of the violence and death in the world right now.

24 posted on 04/30/2004 4:58:43 AM PDT by FITZ
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To: ScarTissue
Funny, nobody but you mentioned gas chambers.
25 posted on 04/30/2004 4:58:46 AM PDT by vandykelastone (I'm so glad Goober Pyle is the Governor of New Mexico, aren't you?)
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To: FITZ
Correct, I should have said bigots, although 99% of these people hate all Arabs, even though 75% of US Arabs are Christian.

These people are an embarassment to the conservative movement. This is why no Republican leader will come within a mile of Michael Savage.
26 posted on 04/30/2004 5:01:07 AM PDT by ScarTissue
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To: ScarTissue
Based on what evidence?

Based on the evidence that since 9/11, there have been virtually NO instances where Muslims have publicly condemned those attackes without adding the qualifier "but," and that the only public statements about terrorism by US Muslims have been complaints about their so-called persecution (which in reality has been virtually non-existent).

Are you saying that most of the 7 million Muslims in the US are terrorists

Based on all the visible evidence and the behavior of the Muslim community, it is pretty clear tha that the majority of Muslims in the US are either sympathetic to radical Islam, actively supporting it, or too cowardly/intimidated to stand up and condemn it.

That is ridiculous. If they were a threat, President Bush, a real patriot, would be the first to deal with it.

Just like he's dealing with illegal immigration across our southern border.

If you were president what would you do with Muslims?

At the very least I would not be going our of my way to tout Islam as the religion of peace.

Do you think most Americans view 99.999% of Muslims as terrorists even though 99.999999999999999999% have not done a single thing to back terrorism?

99.999999999999999999% have not done a single thing to oppose it or condemn it, either.

27 posted on 04/30/2004 5:02:01 AM PDT by Maceman (Too nuanced for a bumper sticker)
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To: ScarTissue
there is the stark reality that very few Muslims did show up.

If they're really so peaceful --- this was there chance and something like 30 or so showed up? You'd think more would come by even if their intention was to fool people. I don't think there is a city in the USA where many Muslims would show up to an anti-terror demonstration --- because many don't disagree with the goals of Al Queda.

28 posted on 04/30/2004 5:09:02 AM PDT by FITZ
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To: ScarTissue
"Islam is as peaceful as any other religion."

Oh, puleeeeze....Scar, you're delusional. And the rest of your post is even worse. I support Israel, the war against terror and abortion is killing. Need I say more?

BTW, who said the dirt "comment?"
29 posted on 04/30/2004 5:09:53 AM PDT by Imagine
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To: ScarTissue
Jasser might be one of those rare peaceful Muslims but out of 50,000 or so Muslims, he was only hoping to get a few hundred to show up and got maybe 30? Just like the article says --- the radical group could have gotten far more anti-American pro-Jihad Muslims to come out for a demonstration. Even with the whining of Muslims about Americans not trusting them, they aren't doing anything to prove we should. This was just one example of where they were given a chance to do so.
30 posted on 04/30/2004 5:15:04 AM PDT by FITZ
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To: ScarTissue
Oops!

You outed yourself.

Sorry you don't like Israel.

Too bad that prejudice has nothing to do with the problem caused by American unwillingness to recognize that we have allowed an islamic chancre to develope into a full scale disease on our own soil.

Also, I note your comment that " Only 1/6 of Muslims are Middle Eastern. " and that begs two questions:
How did islam convert 83% of its membership from other religions? (hint - force).
And, what percentage of American muslims are converts and why did they do so if not forced? (hint - they don't believe in our style of society or government)

31 posted on 04/30/2004 5:17:39 AM PDT by norton
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To: ScarTissue
Quiz:

ISLAM is the fastest growing (insert one) in the world.

a) "mafia" b) "criminal organization" c) "gang of murderous thugs" d) religion of peace
32 posted on 04/30/2004 5:21:03 AM PDT by Imagine
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To: norton
That said, I thank Zuhdi Jasser for having tried and I hope that he and others can manage at least to bring out whatever cowering moderates their community might harbor.

It is only people like them who have the power to avert an honest to God holy war and so far it seems very unlikely that they can or will step forth and try.

33 posted on 04/30/2004 5:21:06 AM PDT by norton
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To: Maceman; ScarTissue
"99.999999999999999999% have not done a single thing to oppose it or condemn it, either.

I saw that and had to comment on it. Fortunately, before I did I saw that you had already done so.

It's this supposed silent majority that bothers me almost as much as the terrorists killing innocent men, women, and children in the name of allah.

By their silence, they appear to be in support of the terror. And their silence silences my tolerance and fuels my own growing prejudice against Muslims and Islam.

My mind is still open but I'm reminded that I can't hear what you, the "moderate Muslims", are saying as your actions are speaking so loudly. In almost every war, in almost every trouble spot on the planet, there are Muslims stirring things up.

34 posted on 04/30/2004 5:25:20 AM PDT by GBA
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To: ScarTissue
Most Israelis would abuse YOUR rights:

It's bigotted to believe most Muslims would abuse our rights but okay to believe most Israelis would abuse our rights? Isralies didn't kill over 2000 Americans who only went to work one September day in NY.

35 posted on 04/30/2004 5:27:47 AM PDT by FITZ
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To: Robert WarrenLinville
Right on
36 posted on 04/30/2004 5:33:35 AM PDT by Unicorn (Two many wimps around)
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To: ChadGore
Another good one.
37 posted on 04/30/2004 5:35:07 AM PDT by Unicorn (Two many wimps around)
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To: wirestripper
Nearly half a million deaths in WW2.........

If it hadn't been a lib president we would have stopped the second day of the invasion. The media would have done what they did in Viet Nam and are now trying to do in Iraq.

We must not let the media define our president or our mission in Iraq.

38 posted on 04/30/2004 5:40:14 AM PDT by OldFriend (Always understand, even if you remain among the few)
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To: ScarTissue
" Islam is as peaceful as any other religion."

Ok, back to the asylum. You cannot play outdoors anymore with reality. Bad scumbag!
39 posted on 04/30/2004 5:46:33 AM PDT by BayouCoyote (The 1st victim of islam is the person who practices it.)
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To: kattracks
I say..Hurrah for true American Muslims!
40 posted on 04/30/2004 5:48:54 AM PDT by stocksthatgoup (illegitimo noncarborundium)
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To: DustyMoment
there is no such thing as a "moderate" Muslim. They all support the terrorists and they all suppoprt the extremism be preached and promoted by "rogue" Muslim clerics.

Wrong. I know first-generation American moderate and even non-observant Muslims. They do not all support the terrorists and extrimist clerics. You're sounding like a liberal in that even when the truth hits you in the face you deny it.

41 posted on 04/30/2004 5:59:56 AM PDT by antiRepublicrat
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To: FITZ
“Funny, nobody but you mentioned gas chambers.”

That is the logical conclusion of what they are saying. Surely you can see that.

“Based on the evidence that since 9/11, there have been virtually NO instances where Muslims have publicly condemned those attackes without adding the qualifier "but,"”

That is a canard. Show me the qualified denunciations. Every Muslim organization, even the Islamist ones like the AMC, denounced them unequivocally.

They condemned it more than any other group in history. Name another group that condemned terrorism done in their name more than US Muslims after 9/11.

Interesting logic, though. Can you name me one Christian organization that denounced Eric Rudolph or the parade of abortion clinic and gay nightclub terrorists? What did you do to denounce it?

“and that the only public statements about terrorism by US Muslims have been complaints about their so-called persecution (which in reality has been virtually non-existent).”

That is absurd. Look at this thread. Look at any thread here about Muslims. 90% of posters here hate them. It is absurd to think they haven’t been persecuted given that level of hate. Do you actually think the RATS are more tolerant?

“Based on all the visible evidence and the behavior of the Muslim community, it is pretty clear tha that the majority of Muslims in the US are either sympathetic to radical Islam, actively supporting it, or too cowardly/intimidated to stand up and condemn it.”

What evidence again?

Interesting logic, again. You are saying the entire government of the US is a 5th column. You are saying that George W Bush is a traitor who doesn’t want to protect America. Come on. That is nonsense. If they were the threat you claim they would Bush would have dealt with them.

Are you going to vote for Bush?

“Just like he's dealing with illegal immigration across our southern border.”

That is a completely different issue.

“At the very least I would not be going our of my way to tout Islam as the religion of peace.”

That’s it? You see them all as terrorists and that is all you would do differently? Come on. This is an internet forum. Say what you think.

“99.999999999999999999% have not done a single thing to oppose it or condemn it, either”

Yes they have—they have paid taxes to the US government to help it fight terrorism. They haven't left America. There are plenty of other countries that are wealthy and more tolerant of them. Yet, they have chosen to stay in America and contribute to it instead of going to countries like Canada or Australia.

You exposed your argument as a fraud. You claim they support terrorism but admit that 99.999999999% have not done a thing to support terrorism.

What have you done to oppose terrorism?

I'll trust the president, vice president, Rumsfeld, Powell, and co. over internet posters any day.

For the person who cited a few instances of Muslims fighting, use that logic across-the-board. Do you know how many places Christians are fighting? Jews have one state and it has fought three countries in recent years. Hinduism has a handful of states and two of them are in conflict. Does that mean these religions are violent?

The problems is extremism, whether it is religious, ethnic, or nationalist.

“Oh, puleeeeze....Scar, you're delusional.”

How so?

“I support Israel, the war against terror and abortion is killing.”

I am neutral toward Israel but support its right to self-defense, support the war on terror, and consider abortion murder.

You didn’t denounce anti-abortion terrorism. Why? Do you sympathize with it?

“Jasser might be one of those rare peaceful Muslims but out of 50,000 or so Muslims, he was only hoping to get a few hundred to show up and got maybe 30?”

He was one guy without a platform and got about a 100 out of 50,000. That percentage is similar to what regular protests get. Remember, even our rally in support of the Iraq war got only a few hundred supporters.

“Just like the article says --- the radical group could have gotten far more anti-American pro-Jihad Muslims to come out for a demonstration.”
When?

Those groups have a platform and are able to mobilize a few hundred Muslims unlike one man. Moreover, their anti-Israel demonstrations get only a few hundred demonstrators. I don’t know of any anti-US demonstrations. If you do, please tell Mr. Ashcroft.

“Even with the whining of Muslims about Americans not trusting them, they aren't doing anything to prove we should.”

Muslims aren’t Americans?

What have they done to prove that they shouldn’t be trusted? Nothing. 9/11 was done by foreigners, not US Muslims.

“Too bad that prejudice has nothing to do with the problem caused by American unwillingness to recognize that we have allowed an islamic chancre to develope into a full scale disease on our own soil.”

It isn’t prejudice to oppose Islamofacism; it is bigoted to hate all Muslims. I am a big fan of Daniel Pipes. He understands the threat but realizes that the vast majority of US Muslims are not a threat. So does the president.

“Sorry you don't like Israel.”

I don’t dislike it. My point was they are as bad on minority rights as Arab nations.

" Only 1/6 of Muslims are Middle Eastern. " and that begs two questions:
How did islam convert 83% of its membership from other religions? (hint - force).”

True. What is your point? Do you honestly think Christianity hasn’t used force to spread?

“And, what percentage of American muslims are converts and why did they do so if not forced? (hint - they don't believe in our style of society or government)”

Black Americans converted to it because they suffer racism and Islam presents itself as color-blind. It is rebellion but people becoming Muslim to protest racism is not exactly a good example.

“ISLAM is the fastest growing (insert one) in the world.

a) "mafia" b) "criminal organization" c) "gang of murderous thugs" d) religion of peace”

E=Religion. It is just like any other religion. Look at history. Even today, most wars involve Christians.
“By their silence, they appear to be in support of the terror. And their silence silences my tolerance and fuels my own growing prejudice against Muslims and Islam.”
Do you denounce Christian extremist terrorists, such as Rudoplh?

That is absurd. By not supporting terrorism they support terrorism? They have denounced it more than anyone else ever has. It just isn’t enough for bigots. There is nothing they can do to convince your ilk.

“It's bigotted to believe most Muslims would abuse our rights but okay to believe most Israelis would abuse our rights?”

No, most Arabs would too. However, I believe that all Americans, regardless of skin color or ethnicity or religion are Americans. Most US Muslims and Israelis believe in American values.

Think about this folks. You all prove that there is a great amount of hatred against Muslims here. Yet they chose to stay here and contribute to America (one out of ten Muslims is a doctor and two out of ten are engineers) instead of going somewhere were they would be treated better. Moreover, if the backed terrorism, they would not be paying taxes and contributing to the US. How can you call them terrorists, then? Their actions speak louder then your words.

“Isralies didn't kill over 2000 Americans who only went to work one September day in NY.”

Neither did most corrupt Arab governments and neither did a single American Muslim. The fact that you guys are blaming US Muslims for something foreign Muslims did reveals that you don’t consider them Americans. Why?

“In almost every war, in almost every trouble spot on the planet, there are Muslims stirring things up.”

That is a lie. Christians are involved in more conflicts than Muslims. Look at the world’s demographics. Virtually every state is either Christian or Muslim. 3/5 of the world is either Christian and Muslim and virtually all of the world outside of India and China is. Hence, it is no surprise that Christians and/or Muslims are involved in every single conflict in the world. How can you call Islam violent but excuse the violence done by Christians?

It wasn’t Muslims who bombed Serbia twice for no reason. It wasn’t Muslims who bombed Iraq to delay an impeachment vote. It wasn’t Muslims who invaded Haiti for no reason. Under Clinton, the US engaged in four unnecessary military actions. That is more than any other country in recent times. Does that mean Americans or Christianity is violent?

Ronald Reagan and both Bushes have accepted Muslims as Americans. Were they wrong? Was a great man like Ronald Wilson Reagan wrong about Islam while some average Joe's on a computer are correct? Come on. There are reasons why Reagan, Bush and every single top Republican leader don't hate all Muslims.

Non-black Muslims were historically Republican. So were Asians. Hispanics were split evenly. In the past decade all three groups have been lost to the Democrats, who already had the black and Jewish votes locked up. The reason for this is the hatred we see in this thread and from people like Michael Savage who discredit the conservative movement. If you are hateful, please don't spew it publicly and damage the cause.
42 posted on 04/30/2004 6:03:06 AM PDT by ScarTissue
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To: FITZ
Isralies didn't kill over 2000 Americans who only went to work one September day in NY.

Nope, their number is lower. USS Liberty anyone?

43 posted on 04/30/2004 6:07:53 AM PDT by antiRepublicrat
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To: kattracks
Suicide is against the absolute laws of Islam.

That's one these terrorists need to learn. The martyr's death we hear so much about in the Quran is in battle, face to face with your enemy with swords drawn, not sneaking up on unsuspecting civilians, which violates prohibitions on murder and suicide. I have a feeling there are lots of suicide bombers quite surprised to find themselves in their Muslim hell.

44 posted on 04/30/2004 6:13:23 AM PDT by antiRepublicrat
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To: ScarTissue
If you follow the above link, "the mood in this community is a radical one", you will find the following information from surveys of American Muslims:

...By a ratio of 67 to 33, Muslims in the United States think "America is immoral."
...About 90 percent of Muslims favor universal health care.
...Fully 79 percent favor affirmative action for minorities.
...Asked about the job being done as president by George W. Bush, 85 percent of Muslims disapprove and a mere 4 percent approve.

If you took a poll of Professors or street people at UC Berkeley, the result would not be much different.

Islam is way more than a "religion". It is an alien ideology, just like Communism. It spreads by force of arms and forcibly enslaves or kills those whom it cannot convert. By any standard, Islam is a totalitarian movement that should be no more welcome in America than Communism was. The fact there are a few courageous Muslims who openly disagree with their Muslim tenets and the likes of CAIR is remarkable. They wouldn't last long if Sharia Law ruled this land!

Comparing Islam as "equal" to other modern day "religions" is a red herring argument as there is no comparison today, nor has there been for hundreds of years.

45 posted on 04/30/2004 6:14:29 AM PDT by Gritty ("There is no fundamental Islam. There is only Islam"-M.Sharon)
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To: antiRepublicrat
Don't forget the Lavon Affair, a series of terrorist attacks on the US and other Western targets that it tried to blame on Arabs to damage US-Arab relations, which were good at the time (they didn't always hate the US. There is nothing inherent about their hostility to the US. There is no "hate America" Arab gene. Most of them hate us for our support of Israel, not our freedom like Bin Laden does). They screwed up and were caught.
46 posted on 04/30/2004 6:18:20 AM PDT by ScarTissue
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To: antiRepublicrat
They do not all support the terrorists and extrimist clerics.

Really!? Where's their outcry against the extremists? Where is their denial of any association with the terrorists? What have they done to silence the radical clerics? What actions have they taken to reclaim their religion from the extremists? Just saying they don't support them doesn't make it so - actions speak LOUDER than words. So far, their actions are speaking volumes to me about their tacit support of the extremists.

You're sounding like a liberal in that even when the truth hits you in the face you deny it.

Show me any truth that I have missed on this issue. Show me the crowds of "moderate" Muslims lining up to support the coalition troops. Show me the "moderate" Muslims in Iraq who have taken action to support democracy by turning in terrorists and insurgents. Show me the "moderate" Muslims who condemned the murder, oppression, threats and slavery that have accurred around the world in the name of Allah. Show me the "moderate" Muslims who denounce al-Qaida, Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, the Mahdi Militia, etc., etc., etc.
47 posted on 04/30/2004 6:26:02 AM PDT by DustyMoment (Repeal CFR NOW!!)
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To: Mark17
I tend to agree, and await evidence of the kind we saw in 1917 when German-Americans enlisted in the armed forces at HIGHER rates than all others to go fight . . . Germany.
48 posted on 04/30/2004 6:27:12 AM PDT by LS (CNN is the Amtrak of news.)
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To: Gritty
"By a ratio of 67 to 33, Muslims in the United States think "America is immoral."

That is misleading. The rate for other immigrant groups would be similar. Moreover, as conservatives, we also consider US society to be immoral. There is too much violence and promiscuity in the US, right? Well, that is what the Muslims are complaining about.


"About 90 percent of Muslims favor universal health care.
...Fully 79 percent favor affirmative action for minorities."

What is your point? Because they support socialist medicine they are terrorists? LOL.

Those are not extreme positions. A substantial minority of Americans support socialized medicine while a slim majority support affirmative action. Do you know why the Muslim rate of support for AA is higher than normal? It is because a large chunk of US Muslims are African-American. They aren't deemed a terrorist threat. Only the Arabs are and South Asians because people can't tell the difference between the two and are too ignorant to understand that Islam and Muslims are not monolithic. Here are a few quick examples, Turkey, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Indonesia have all elected woman leaders in the past 15 years. That actually is better than the record anywhere else in the world. There is a huge difference between Arab Islam and non-Arab Islam. Turkish Islam is now secular while South Asian Islam and East Asian Islam have a history of pluralism and tolerance.

"Islam is way more than a "religion". It is an alien ideology, just like Communism."

All non-Christian religions are an alien ideology.

"It spreads by force of arms and forcibly enslaves or kills those whom it cannot convert."

Most religions spread through force, even much of Christian expansion has been via force. The second part of that comment is no longer valid. Besides, religion was just an excuse used by Arab imperialists to justify their imperialism just like race was an excuse used by British or French imperialists.




49 posted on 04/30/2004 6:28:33 AM PDT by ScarTissue
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To: kattracks
I heard this guy on the radio (The Laura Ingraham show?). Somehow Israel came up (I'm not sure how, it was a softball interview) and I perceived that his reaction to such an issue was much like the unreformed Nazi in Dr. Strangelove. His left hand was working very hard to keep his right arm from saluting.
50 posted on 04/30/2004 6:32:40 AM PDT by AmishDude
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