Indians outperformed USAF F15E

Strategy Page ^ | 3/1/2004 12:35:32 PM | JJFS

[Missouri]

A lot of these exercises are set up as a learning experience.

I'm with you. This is no big deal.

I'm sure that the Indians have some very fine pilots and that the Sukhoi-30 is a fine jet fighter.

It all comes down to who has the industrial capacity to built such weapons. My Dad always says "if you dominate the sky, you will dominate the battle".

[atomic conspiracy]

The use of the F-15E Strike Eagle rather than the optimized single-seat fighter versions would also be consistent with the SU-30's highest priority mission: air defense against Pakistani and Chinese nuclear strike aircraft.

There are obvious political reasons that the real nature of such an exercise would not be emphasized in publicity material.

[Tallguy]

...and I forgot to add that the F-15E is principally designed as a fighter-bomber. The F-15C is the "air superiority" variant.

[BradyLS]

I hear the French and German judges consistently gave the Indian pilots straight 6's. I dunno, just sayin'... ;-)

[BradyLS]

Are you refering to the varsity squads? ;-)

[Tallguy]

F-15E is the Strike Eagle, designed for use as a fighter -bomber. I don't know if there are some differences that would make it inferior to the F-15 interceptors. (hard points for instance that would spoil streamlining)

A naval aviator friend who got a ride in an 'Echo' tells me that this version is considerably heavier than the F-15C -- meaning it probably doesn't have the thrust-to-weight ratio necessary for dogfighting. He did indicate that the Radar carried by the Echo was superior in some modes, and having a rear-seater can be an advantage in ACM engagements. Second set of Mark 1 eyeballs keeping track of the bad guys...

[BradyLS]

The Indians had already made their changes after being beaten by the French Air Force last year.

Coming off a loss like that, it's no wonder they were packing a heavy lunch!

[BradyLS]

They stole our jobs!

LOL!!! Bonus points for being topical!

[bert]

I would argue that as always, we are acting in a predetermined manner at the time and place of our choosing.

The Rats and their presstitute mouth pieces not only don't know the plans, they don't know what is available to implement the plans. They are floundering in the dark.

The sudden appearance of an Iraqi two star is a major increase in what's showing. There are still several hole cards not showing. I would never bet against our effort with an Iraqi 2 star showing.

[VadeRetro]

Guess how many F 15's have been shot down in actual air to air combat (total not just those flown by US)?

Don't forget that John Kerry wanted to cancel the F-15 program flat in 1984. Would have saved a couple billion, I believe, which could have been used to pay people to have needs.

[PokeyJoe]

Free Chicken Tandori to the first guy who gets "shot down" . . .

[AnIndianFromIndia]

About the sandbagging of military exercises,you are talking about one of the most access-restricted, secretive armed forces in the world.To say that the IAF would be foolish enough to divulge sensitive information, and that too in an exercise held about 30+ odd years since the last one of a similar kind, with a country which it held until recently as hostile, if not an enemy, is plain civilian naivette.

By the way, the IAF were flying Su-30 MKI's.

[Kozak]

We got to see that when I worked for McDonnell Douglas.

My brother in law helped build them at MD in St Louis. He worked on the tools. Remember bugging him to get a look when they were still hush hush, top secret stuff. Poor guy was dying to show us. Never broke the security however.

[Gorjus]

... the F-22 is not a dogfighter. Not true (and note I did not copy over your comment that there are 'reports' that say so - which is true since you can find knocks against any and all US aircraft).

Dogfighting is not an argument for the F-22. True.

Dogfighting, for some time, has been at the pilot limits. There are good tactics and bad tactics, but there are a lot of aircraft that are competitive at dogfighting - and the F-22 is definitely one of them. However, dogfighting alone would not be a reason for a new aircraft. While you can compete with an F-16 in close, no aircraft can beat it reliably.

So why have an F-22, of F-35, or whatever? Because it's not all about close in dogfighting. The need is for a dogfighter plus... A dogfighter plus stealth. A dogfighter plus supercruise. A dogfighter that will go on a carrier. A dogfighter that will hover.

And more than that, it's not about one-on-one. The classic example of this was the famed Harrier 'VIFF' (vectoring in forward flight) maneuver. Against a single aircraft, with missiles that have to be looking at the enemy's tailpipe when they're fired, that can be a pretty good tactic. But the obvious counter tactic is to have Fighter 1 lure the Harrier into VIFFing, then have Fighter 2 shoot the now-stationary Harrier with a weapon that doesn't care which way the tailpipe is pointing.

Last comment: Pilot proficiency is at least as important as the platform they're flying. A few years ago, there was a series of exercises between USAF pilots and the Israelis, and then between USN pilots and the Israelis. At the time, the average flight time per month for US tactical pilots was about 30 hours, and for the Israelis was about 45 hours. The USAF pilots thought the Israelis were really tough (fighter-speak for, 'we got beat'). The USN pilots though the Israelis weren't that good (fighter-speak for, 'we won'). But . . . USAF pilots fly fairly regularly throughout the year (30 hours each month) while USN pilots fly a lot when on cruise, then stand down when the ship is in port (with workups, etc. but still not nearly as much flying). Result: The USN pilots were actually getting close to 60 hours/month when they 'fought' the Israelis.

That was back when flight time was used effectively, not just boring holes in the sky over Bosnia, so current hours/month may not reflect the true level of proficiency. And we're still hurting big time from the Clinton-era meltdown in the military.

So, F-22 will be the world's greatest fighter, with the world's highest price tag. It will be able to do things that no other fighter can do, and they'll be tactically useful, air dominance winners. But in the end, it's the pilot that matters most.

[HighWheeler]

Hmmmmmm.

I wonder why the America hating presstitutes have not jumped all over this one in an attempt to defend John F'n Kerry's multitude of votes against funding the F-15 and other expensive wastes of taxpayer money.

[AnIndianFromIndia]

Did I say Su-30 MKI? Oops sorry, my mistake! The IAF did not allow training with the MKI.What it did allow was the older Su-30K planes. Here's an excerpt from The Indian Express newspaper: "...The IAF also turned down a USAF request to field the state-of-the-art SU-30MKI and the air exercises will only see the deployments of the older standard SU-30K."

[thedilg]

Kozak,

In air-to-air I suspect the answer is zero. However, as a fighter pilot and a member of the F-15 source selection I believe we need to be honest.

We used the F-15 in four wars. Gulf War 1, Gulf War 2, Kosovo and Afghanistan. In three of the wars there were no opposing AFs. In Gulf War 1 an ill trained, minor AF opposed us. It took off on 37 sorties and got shot down 37 times. (I believe) It shot down zero planes to include no F-16s, no A-10s, no F-14s, no F-18s, no nothing.

Since about 1980 Our Ally Israel has lost no fighters of any type Air-to-air. (Again my memory)

The F-15 has a great record but it is hard to get shot down if there is no enemy air.

Godspeed, The Dilg

[rbmillerjr]

"Next time, send the Navy!
Best pilots in the world."


As a neutral observer...by what objective measure do you support this statement?

I've been to some airshows and the F-15E performed very well compared to the F-18.

[AnIndianFromIndia]

here's an excerpt from a message board:


"RE:F-15's vs. Su-30's 12/4/2003 1:09:15 PM
I'm new to the board so hello. I'm an ex-military pilot and have a very good friend who is an ex-South African Mirage F-1 pilot of the bush wars who also later went on to become a test pilot for their Air Force. When South Africa was looking for fighter replacements he was sent to Russia to fly their jets. He described going into a very tight 360 degree 9G turn in a SU-35 and only losing a foot or two of altitude at the completion of the circle. Sorry, but we have nothing that can do that. One must remember that while Russian electronics and avionics are inferior, Israeli and Indian are not. The SU-30MKI carries Russian, Israeli and Indian equipment. This is not going to be a Russian SU-30MK nor will it be a Chinese SU-30MK, i.e. inferior. This bad boy is going to be hands down one sophisticated sonofagun. Also let's think about the Novatar longe range missile which has a range of 248 miles with solid booster. Coupled to the Zhuk radar it will pick off F-15's before they themselves show up on their scopes. The problem that everyone runs into with Russian equipment is the poor aftermarket support. This is why the Indians are going to build them themselves to include spares. The kicker is that with the numbers they are going to produce the per unit cost is only $22.5 million. That's four-five SU-35's for the price of one F-22.

And though the AIM-9X is great, it's range is on the order of 6 miles. The Russian Archer has a range of 40km!! It doesn't have the seeker envelope of the Python 4 or the amazing Python 5 which have ranges in the 9+ mile range, but it can be slaved to the radar and fired. Pretty tough having to dodge heat-seeking missiles when you are some 50-60 miles away from your enemy (Closure times allow longer distance shots). What it boils down to is that the Indians (and anyone else in the future) can take the awesome airframe and engines and refit it with top notch avionics and electronics and you are talking about one very lethal weapon system. I feel bad for any Pakistani F-16 pilot having to go up against an MKI "

Source: The Strategy Page

http://www.strategypage.com/messageboards/messages/29-923.asp

[Rebelbase]

"It took off on 37 sorties and got shot down 37 times."

And one of those 37 was shot down by an A-10!