FURIOUS BUSH DEMANDS TO SEE ALL PRISONER ABUSE PHOTOS, VIDEOS

Drudge ^ | 5/9/04 | Matt Drudge

[demkicker]

A furious President Bush has demanded to see all photos and videos showing abuse of Iraq detainees, a senior White House source said late Sunday.

"The president was blindsided by the first TV images, he will not be blindsided again," the source, who demanded anonymity, explained to the DRUDGE REPORT.

The president has instructed Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld to present him with him all known images that could further deepen the crises.

Monday editions of the NEW YORKER feature photos of a dog attacking a naked Iraqi detainee at Abu Ghraib prison.

President Bush was aware of the photo, the top source claims.

The White House is preparing for more fallout, and leaks from lawmakers.

The Pentagon is considering the possibility of showing the unseen material to members of Congress.

"It's clear the moment the evidence is sent to the Congress, we will see a new feeding frenzy in the media."

[oceanview]

I am not asking him to defend it, just make the point that it isn't torture.

This is the same society that firebombed Dresden and Tokyo, and dropped two atomic bombs on cities.

[FreeReign]

The principles of the Geneva Convention still apply, whether you are legally subject to them or not.

Thank you for your frank albeit tortured admission that 60 Minutes II is not legally subject to the Geneva Convention.

I never said that 60 Minutes II was legally subject to the Geneva convention. I've made no error thus I've made no admission -- that's your error.

And you still ignore my point.

[Edit35]

Geeze, I'm thinking that Bush maybe going overboard. He needs to get on offense and make it plain to the media that any further leaking of photos of the Iraqi prison abuse will only serve to hurt our military men and women.

If we could just release ALL THE PHOTOS tomorrow, this whole thing would blow over in less than a week.

The problem is, as it has been throughout this war is the partisan Democrat leaning media.

CBS and the Washington POST each have hundreds of photos, and they obviously plan to release one photo each day for the next 500 days or so. These media partisans want to stretch this scandal and thereby damage Bush as long as they can, right up to the election if possible.

The Washington Post knows that if they release all the photos now, the scandal will diminish quickly.

[sinkspur]

That Prison is full of people who were trying to our Soldiers, and it's even said that that particular cell block housed the most dangerous of detainees.

Were these the same "most dangerous of detainees" who meekly formed a human pyramid in front of a 100 pound female?

Or was it a vicious killer who rolled over like a dog, while on a leash under the control of that same 100 pound female?

[MJY1288]

I've seen what they did to Danny Pearl, I'm sure he and his wife could deal with him being stripped naked, it's the video of him being beheaded they have a problem with.

I agree that the pictures were a complete violation, my argument is that what I have seen so far is not torture. The smiling faces of the couple of guards that disgusts me, and of course the fact that they posed for pictures to begin with

[sinkspur]

the only point I was trying to make, what that the part of "human nature" that might cause someone to rough up a terrorist in their custody, is totally different from the part of human nature that stacks two of those same people in some kind of bondage/erotic pose for photographs.

No. It's the same part of human nature.

If you can't get away with physically harming somebody, you can damn sure humiliate the hell out of them, and pose with these humiliated men as if one were standing next to a deer carcass.

[oceanview]

I've got news for you - we are never going to be able to fight and win a war under those standards, we might as well just give the country to the islamofascists right now.

that's not to say that we NEED to do things like this to win - we don't. But in every war, things like this are going to happen, and the entire military apparatus cannot be held hostage to the acts of every single US soldier. That would mean that one soldier or one group of soldiers can lose a war for us, this is the standard that the Dems and the media want us to live up to. Its not possible.

[bootless]

I don't know about the two-star, but the name George Soros did come to mind.

[Tunehead54]

Get it out all now - not in dribs and drabs up to the election. Stategery. ;-)

[strela]

I never said that 60 Minutes II was legally subject to the Geneva convention.

No, what you did is chime in on a discussion with an indeterminate statement that "The principles of the Geneva Convention still apply ..." Exactly what they "apply" to was left to the imagination of the reader, and my imagination said "60 Minutes II." A news organization is not part of the government and cannot be forced to follow rules that apply ONLY to the government. Hence, YOUR error.

And you still ignore my point.

You ignored mine first.

Now buzz off.

[GB]

That's why I think this is smart strategy. Dump it all out. If there's that much of it, bury the media in it, give them stacks and stacks and stacks of it. You pile it on, the returns for the folks who are salivating over this as a chance to screw Bush are going to diminish and diminish and diminish until they will eventually be non-existent.

IMHO, the worst heat that has been generated from this has already been generated, and I think Bush has made points by jumping on this like white on rice, I think Rummy made points with his performance the other day and I think the fact that the perps here are going to be court-martialed and punished ASAP is going to make points.

I think the problem here is that some folks can't think outside the "I hate the media" box, and think that it's kowtowing or giving in to the Dems and the EEEEEVILLL satanic media to dump this stuff when it's actually brilliant strategy.

[oceanview]

we'll have to disagree on that one. if someone hurt my kid, I wouldn't be thinking to stack that person in a homoerotic pyramid and photograph him for revenge. that just wouldn't "click" for me as a form of retribution.

[Arkinsaw]

And you don't think that this was a gay porn ring in a "don't ask, don't tell" military?!

No, the simplest answer is that they were told to loosen up prisoners, that discipline was lax, that this became part of the normal operating environment of the prison.

[oceanview]

that is true - but as other have pointed out, I do not believe the Pentagon is in possesion of all the material, the media has their own 'stash'.

[LandOfLincolnGOP]

I've got news for you - we are never going to be able to fight and win a war under those standards, we might as well just give the country to the islamofascists right now.

If we can't uphold our standards under adversity, we might as well give the country up to the islamofascists or the Rats.

But in every war, things like this are going to happen, and the entire military apparatus cannot be held hostage to the acts of every single US soldier.

On the contrary, we can't justify looking in the other direction just because facing up to terrible situation is embarrassing or a hardship.

I'm glad our President is giving this situation the response it deserves. I hope he stays with it until those responsible are held accountable.

[Gator113]

Well, I love President Bush and I believe that this Country may never recover should he be removed from the White House at this time.....BUT, if he dumps Rumsfeld over this crap, Bush WILL lose my vote!! I guess that would mean that I wouldn't get to vote, because I damn sure wouldn't vote for a traitorous Dem!

Perhaps I should double up on my blood pressure meds tonight!

[GB]

I don't have a bit of problem with Dresden or Tokyo or Hiroshima or Nagasaki, because that was the actual conduct of war. (Aside from the radiation, Tokyo was actually worse than the A-bomb strikes, you should read some of the details of LeMay's B-29 raids, it makes this war look like a stroll in the park).

I would've had problems with U.S. guards doing the kind of stuff we've seen in these photos to Hermann Goering in Spandau Prison, because IMHO as a society we should be above that.

[sinkspur]

we'll have to disagree on that one. if someone hurt my kid, I wouldn't be thinking to stack that person in a homoerotic pyramid and photograph him for revenge. that just wouldn't "click" for me as a form of retribution.

These prisoners didn't hurt your kid, nor did they hurt the kids of any of the guards.

But the guards despised them all the same, and wanted to humiliate them.

[GB]

And as I said, God knows how many copies of these things are circulating around on CD or via email that neither the DOD nor the media knows about.

[strela]

I've seen what they did to Danny Pearl

My uncle saw what they did to a close friend of his who was working in Tower II on September 11. Considering that the only piece left of his friend was two molars and a section of jaw bone about the size of a pencil, they were extremely lucky to be able to identify him at all.

I agree that the pictures were a complete violation, my argument is that what I have seen so far is not torture.

I have not yet seen all of the pictures. But the old saying about there being fire where there's smoke comes to mind. A mind that could conceive of stripping these prisoners and forcing them into homoerotic poses is not that far from actually inflicting torture upon them.

[MJY1288]

I'm not defending the sick behavior of those in the pictures, all I'm saying is that I don't think it can be described as torture. I consider what I have seen so far as highly disturbing acts of sexual misconduct, based on the photo's of the couple who are posing for the picyures and whoever was taking them. I say prosecute then to the fullest extent. But I will not condemn what I see in the picture of the K-9's who are about to attack the prisoner, because I don't have the facts and I refuse to accept the context our leftist media has chosen to cast them in.

[Southack]

"No, the simplest answer is that they were told to loosen up prisoners, that discipline was lax, that this became part of the normal operating environment of the prison."

Not only permitting, but *videoing* felonius homosexual rapes was just a simple part of the normal operating environment?!

Come on. They *knew* that if those rape videos got out that they were going to Levenworth for life.

What has happened is that *one* of the men under threat of court martial decided to attempt extortion. Click on the Hackworth thread here and you'll see that he "wanted a better plea deal" or else he would release his nude photographs to make the military look bad.

Well, he didn't get his plea deal, and Hackworth was then given those photos (which were also sent to 17 members of Congress).

That was a bad idea; he's certainly not going to get a favorable sentence now...and his fellow prison guards are going to get hammered in public trials, too.

[oceanview]

there has to be something else "wrong" with these guards - homoerotic pyramid construction followed by photographs is not what a "normal" person would do in my opinion.

[SierraWasp]

Or... Maybe Ted Koppel will run them one at a time for a full hour, this time... suppose?

[FreeReign]

I never said that 60 Minutes II was legally subject to the Geneva convention.

No, what you did is chime in on a discussion with an indeterminate statement that "The principles of the Geneva Convention still apply ..." Exactly what they "apply" to was left to the imagination of the reader, and my imagination said "60 Minutes II." A news organization is not part of the government and cannot be forced to follow rules that apply ONLY to the government. Hence, YOUR error.

Only to your imagination is it left. The principle that you don't humiliate a prisoner as a curiosity, that you don't publish photos of POW's and that you don't add to their humiliation is a valid principle whether you are legally subject to the Geneva Convention or not. It still applies to what your behavior should be when releasing such photos. Get it???

Now buzz off.

I'm staying, and if you don't like someone disagreeing with you then get lost.

[oceanview]

you don't seem to understand - THEY WANT HIM TO BE RESPONSIBLE. The Dems and the media don't just want a thorough investigation of the guilty parties - they want Bush to fall, and they want the US to lose its ability to project military power in a war they don't "approve of".

[sinkspur]

I don't assume this was homo-erotic.

I think these sicko grunts knew that a) nakedness is a humiliation to a Muslim and b) homosexuality is anathema to Muslims.

So, if one wants to humiliate a Muslim, he strips them down, and poses them in homosexual poses, AND takes pictures of them.

With a woman.

[strela]

Take your meds. Please.

[lavrenti]

It really has turned out to be a bunch of psychos from the same unit playing out Caligula in their own personal pen with a nod and a wink from their immediate superiors.

All women, too. Hmm. This story might just shift soon enough.

Hackworth lost practically all credibility with his beloved fellow vets and current servicemen. Glad to see that consequence. As for the uncle, guess his beloved nephew gets a public trial in Baghdad thanks to him. He probably already rues the day he decided to interfere in a criminal investigation.

Hmm. That's a felony. Hope Hack is aware of that, too.

[Southack]

"I don't assume this was homo-erotic. ... So, if one wants to humiliate a Muslim, he strips them down, and poses them in homosexual poses..."

You contradict yourself. Homosexual poses are by definition homo-erotic.

[patriciamary]

President Bush and the republicans need to take a lesson believe it or not from Colin Powell .When a senator asked a question awhile back about Bush's military service Powell sternly said don't go there.When asked about his chief aide's comment he abruptly closed that discussion with just a few words.Bush needs to say enough is enough the military will take care of the problem Period......

[FreeReign]

Take your meds. Please.

The photos should not have been released.

You can't admit that this is correct so you say something inane.

You are a dunce.

[GB]

Screw the Dems and screw the media (and I work in the media). Ignore them. They are going to do what they're going to do, regardless of any actions by the White House. The White House should focus its efforts on the American people, and IMHO getting on top of this and putting everything out and punishing the perps is the best way to make points with the American people. Because I think you've got 40 percent of this electorate that's going to vote for Bush and 40 percent of this electorate that's going to vote for Kerry, and there's no way in this or any known solar system that those people are going to change their minds. That leaves 20 percent that's going to decide the election on 11/2. Bush needs to pull a Reagan on this, let the media and the Dems jibber jabber until the cows come home, but go over their heads and make the case to the American people, in particular the 20 percent that's going to decide this election, that the White House is on top of this.

[sinkspur]

Homosexual poses are by definition homo-erotic.

Only if one assumes that somebody is getting off on the pile of naked men.

I assume that this was humiliation, pure and simple, for those present.

No doubt somebody viewing the pictures is getting off on this, but the grunts were not.

[Judith Anne]

I wouldn't get too excited about strela's remarks. Instead, do as s/he suggests in his/her tag line, and read the profile.

[FreeReign]

What if those who took them burned copies to CD and have them stashed somewhere or gave them to friends? Do you think some individual outside the DOD or the government is going to hesitate one iota about taking them to the press? If they exist, they will come out. I don't relish that, quite honestly I don't like it a bit, I'd prefer that any release come officially from the White House and/or DOD, but I'm realistic enough to know that in the digital/Internet age it's hard to keep anything totally classified.

Oh, I think the photos will come out too. I just think who ever is doing it, is doing it for nefarious reasons.

Don't you agree?

[Southack]

"No doubt somebody viewing the pictures is getting off on this, but the grunts were not."

Based upon what evidence do you make that conclusion about the prison guards?

[GB]

Of course. But I repeat, the White House should willingly round up all it can find and dump reams and reams and reams and stacks and stacks and stacks on the media and the Dems, and watch the returns from this diminish down to nothing for those nefarious folks.

[MJY1288]

"Were these the same "most dangerous of detainees" who meekly formed a human pyramid in front of a 100 pound female?"

sink, with all due respect, do you really think that the 100 pound female was acting all by herself? Do you think it's possible that there might have been 5 or 6 armed guards just out of the field of view of the camera lens?

Just the fact that the 100 pound girl was smiling for the camera as she pointed to the crotch of the Iraqi detainees with a cigarette hanging out of her mouth should be proof enough for you, that many of these pictures were staged and taken for effect. Who ever took the pictures and distributed them, had an agenda, the pictures were taken to do harm, and just the fact that some of them were staged, should lead any rational person to be skeptical of why these pictures were taken, and the motives of who took them

[sinkspur]

Just the fact that the 100 pound girl was smiling for the camera as she pointed to the crotch of the Iraqi detainees with a cigarette hanging out of her mouth should be proof enough for you, that many of these pictures were staged and taken for effect. Who ever took the pictures and distributed them, had an agenda, the pictures were taken to do harm, and just the fact that some of them were staged, should lead any rational person to be skeptical of why these pictures were taken, and the motives of who took them

With all due respect, the "agenda" was to humiliate Iraqi prisoners. And, to keep "mementos" of that humiliation, so these dumb-ass reservists could show the folks back home that they treated these camel-jocks like dirt.

You don't think some of those hillbillies in West Virginia would high-five over these pictures?

Why, Lynndie England's family is high-fiving over them NOW!

[sinkspur]

You have it in your head that this is some kind of gay porn ring.

I don't think it is, in the least.

We will just have to disagree.

[Arkinsaw]

Who ever took the pictures and distributed them, had an agenda, the pictures were taken to do harm

I seriously doubt it will turn out that way and if it doesn't, this forum is going to look like a bunch of reality deniers. Back in 2000 anybody who said that the Bush/Gore election was close got called "hand-wringers". Turned out that there were a lot of reality-deniers instead of hand-wringers. Hope it turns out the other way, but odds are not good.

[GB]

I agree ... IMHO, anyone who thinks this is some kind of organized, nefarious conspiracy to put Dem moles in that prison to deliberately take photos to make G.W. Bush look bad and try to influence the conduct/outcome of this war and the outcome of the 11/2 election needs to stop watching Oliver Stone movies.

[Texasforever]

What do you think it is Sink? .

[onyx]

I remain furious at Hackworth.
The investigation was underway.
No cover-up.
Then along came CBS, with thanks,
apparently owed to Hackworth.

[Arkinsaw]

anyone who thinks this is some kind of organized, nefarious conspiracy to put Dem moles in that prison

Sometimes it sounds just like certain liberal forums. Unpleasant reality must be denied. Emotion trumps truth. The more oftener you say it the more truer it be.

[sinkspur]

There's no conspiracy here.

These are low-lifes doing what low-lifes do.

Not unlike college kids ritually killing black cats, or, in a sick fraternity prank, forcing water down the throat of a pledge until he drowns.

They'll get a chance to mull over their stupidity in Leavenworth, hopefully for a very long time.

[TheCrusader]

"This is great PR. We wouldn't want to think Bush is laughing at the photos of Iraqi prisoners on leashes like most the rest of us are."

LOL. Thanks for making me laugh.

[Fester Chugabrew]

George W. Bush defending turning a snarling dog loose on a naked man?

There was a time when the President of the United States did not have to personally, publicly apologize for every wrongdoing that took place within the armed forces. Thanks to digital technology and Al Gore's invention, those times are fading fast.

[luvbach1]

Agree fully with your post #1. Are we going to let our being an "open society" be our undoing? All of the "abuses" should be addressed and can be addressed without flaying Defense and the US Military and their flesh being thrown to jackals of the liberal domestic press and the anti American world press. The Demonrats in congress present the most troublesome factor. Who can doubt that they will continue to put political advantage before the national interest? In fact, their legal demand of access to, and dissemination of new, even more damaging materials undoubtedly will be subverted to use as a cudgel against Bush, Rummy, and the Military without regard to even greater injury to our cause.